Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: dippydave on 06 July 2010, 17:53:24

Title: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: dippydave on 06 July 2010, 17:53:24
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well. The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them. I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Gaffers on 06 July 2010, 18:23:46
The only rule I see applied on roundabouts is that it is compulsary to try and kill any cyclist on them, as happened to me twice today.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Chris_H on 06 July 2010, 18:25:26
Tough one I would say.

Presumably she was continuing on round?

You changed lane so were obliged to check that there was no-one there?

Not what you wanted to hear and not 'The Law' but is Highway Code IMHO. :(
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: dippydave on 06 July 2010, 18:51:55
thanks chris, i just want to hear the law/code and will take it. even the bad stuff. :-/

I did check, but obviously not well enough. yeah she was continuing on round. apparently it should be 'reasonable' that she would expect me to be doing the same despite a left indication! hmm...
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 06 July 2010, 19:10:17
This is the official explanation of how to use roundabouts:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338

It is amazing how often drivers ignore these rules >:( >:(
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Gaffers on 06 July 2010, 19:25:59
You could argue that by joining the roundabout into your blind spot she was not giving way to vehicles from the right  :-/
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Andy B on 06 July 2010, 19:32:42
Quote
....
 I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.  .....

So, you'd be the green car. Acceptable acording to the 'rules'  :y
(http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070540.jpg)

Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: karlus 693 on 06 July 2010, 19:46:25
I thought that was the correct way of using a roundabout re Dave's graphic. but it may have changed. just lately coming into bournemouth cars have been using the left lane and going round the outside to turn right! it gets interesting when i am using the inside lane to go straight on. other interesting fact is these cars have a big L on the top. so is the law changing?
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Plomien on 06 July 2010, 20:19:08
Quote
I thought that was the correct way of using a roundabout re Dave's graphic. but it may have changed. just lately coming into bournemouth cars have been using the left lane and going round the outside to turn right! it gets interesting when i am using the inside lane to go straight on. other interesting fact is these cars have a big L on the top. so is the law changing?
It also depends on road markings, we have some roundabouts that say right hand lane for straight across
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: dippydave on 06 July 2010, 20:21:11
Quote
This is the official explanation of how to use roundabouts:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338

It is amazing how often drivers ignore these rules >:( >:(


I'd just googled and 'discovered' this page myself before returning here! thanks you guys! I'm a gonna ring me insurance back tomorrow and tell em what for! Yes I'd have been the green car!

I also note that the other driver should've taken account of

185

watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all


and

187

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to

    * pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
    * traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit


especially as she'd been driving less than two years and the highway code is much fresher in her mind!

ps if you're being really nosey, here's a link to the actual accident site http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=high+wycombe&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.127023,33.881836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=High+Wycombe,+Buckinghamshire,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.605278,-0.693319&spn=0.00673,0.024719&z=16&pw=2
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 06 July 2010, 20:33:16
We had a retired USAF Colonel as a friend when he was living in our English town whilst carrying out USA government business on the then F111 fighter jet fleet.

His approach at roundabouts had to be seen to be believed.  As an American he was not used to them, and his policy seemed to be to aim his imported large Lincoln at speed towards the roundabout and somehow reach the other side! :o :o :o  How he never had an accident we never could fathom.   He drove his car like he was still flying a B52! :D :D :D :D ;)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: karlus 693 on 06 July 2010, 20:47:00
I reckon he has an excuse though. they dont have roundabouts over there or is that Canada? Just traffic lights i think.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: dippydave on 06 July 2010, 20:57:23
i wish i'd just flown home that day rather than going on a fruitless hunt for LPG!!

I've made a photo album if anyone wants to look: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=27541&id=100000126303347&l=cb761286bc

i'll even see if i can link direct to the pics!




nope. i can't. bugger! lol. anyone know how to embed facebook pics on here? or do i need photobucket!?
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 06 July 2010, 21:10:34
Quote
I reckon he has an excuse though. they dont have roundabouts over there or is that Canada? Just traffic lights i think.


No the USA seem not to have any roundabouts that I have seen in thousands of miles of driving there.  They just have so much space to build full interchanges, traffic light controlled junctions, and 'U' turn lanes 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Never been to Canada though, so cannot say ;)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Entwood on 06 July 2010, 21:34:41
America and Canada don't have roundabouts ... they have 4-way crossings instead ... you MUST stop at these even if no-one else is within 400 miles ( smokey will be hiding and watching somewhere ) .... and if two, or more, cars approach at the same time .. the rules are simple .. you proceed in turn on time of getting there .. so if you see a 4-way .. and another car appoaching .. the race starts ....  :)

Dangerous things IMHO aas they are totally random everytime .. it is down to the "opinion" of who ever thinks they got there first !!

Both countries also allow you to cross a Red light legally ... on most junctions .. if you are turning right (would be our left) you can "filter" even on a red ...unless specifically prohibited by a very small sign usually !!!

Good fun driving across the pond .. once you get used to it .. :)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 06 July 2010, 21:45:46
Quote
i wish i'd just flown home that day rather than going on a fruitless hunt for LPG!!

I've made a photo album if anyone wants to look: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=27541&id=100000126303347&l=cb761286bc

i'll even see if i can link direct to the pics!




nope. i can't. bugger! lol. anyone know how to embed facebook pics on here? or do i need photobucket!?


Looking at that series of photographs Dave I would say 50/50 is the best you'll get :y

I don't know about Facebook but Photobucket is easy to use when you get it set up.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Gaffers on 06 July 2010, 21:58:55
Quote
Quote
I reckon he has an excuse though. they dont have roundabouts over there or is that Canada? Just traffic lights i think.


No the USA seem not to have any roundabouts that I have seen in thousands of miles of driving there.  They just have so much space to build full interchanges, traffic light controlled junctions, and 'U' turn lanes 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Never been to Canada though, so cannot say ;)

There is one in Branson MI, I nearly died of shock when I drove up to it  ;D
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 06 July 2010, 22:11:49
Quote
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.

The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them.

I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!

So, you were in front, that gives you the right of way, going 3/4 way round the roundabout you have the choice of inside or outside lane.

She joins after you and excelerates to undertake you?  where, on the roundabout or the road after the exit.

If the 2nd one is the case she should have been watching you if you were in the fast lane.  The only time she has the right to undertake is coming up to a juction and you cant proceed due to traffic or conditions, but should not undertake in any of the above cases if you are indicating your intentions.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 22:14:54
Quote
Quote
....
 I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.  .....

So, you'd be the green car. Acceptable acording to the 'rules'  :y
(http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070540.jpg)

Technically, if you are on the central hub of the roundabout and then exit onto lane one of your new road then you change lanes on the roundabout - unless the roundabout is 'snail marked' with paint directing you onto your new road.

If you cross white lane markings to get onto your new road/lane and you strike something on your nearside/passenger side in the process then, sadly, the fault is yours....   :'(
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 22:16:35
Quote
Quote
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.

The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them.

I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!

So, you were in front, that gives you the right of way, going 3/4 way round the roundabout you have the choice of inside or outside lane.

She joins after you and excelerates to undertake you?  where, on the roundabout or the road after the exit.

If the 2nd one is the case she should have been watching you if you were in the fast lane.  The only time she has the right to undertake is coming up to a juction and you cant proceed due to traffic or conditions, but should not undertake in any of the above cases if you are indicating your intentions.

    

Bear in mind there is no such thing as a 'fast' lane.  Its lane 1, 2 or 3.....  ;)   :y
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 22:21:59
Quote
Quote
Quote
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.

The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them.

I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!

So, you were in front, that gives you the right of way, going 3/4 way round the roundabout you have the choice of inside or outside lane.

She joins after you and excelerates to undertake you?  where, on the roundabout or the road after the exit.

If the 2nd one is the case she should have been watching you if you were in the fast lane.  The only time she has the right to undertake is coming up to a juction and you cant proceed due to traffic or conditions, but should not undertake in any of the above cases if you are indicating your intentions.

    

Bear in mind there is no such thing as a 'fast' lane.  Its lane 1, 2 or 3.....  ;)   :y

Disagree.  Its upto you if its safe to change lanes from 2 into 1.  Thats what mirrors are for and why your neck is able to swivel your head to look into your blindspot.  ;)  To manouever so early when only partly past - or if lane one is undertaking - is cutting someone up and why undertaking is not permissable.  How often has that happened to you, especially if on an LGV or towing??  Can cause more than a wee brown trouser moment....
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Entwood on 06 July 2010, 22:22:05
Dippy .. fight them all the way ..  I have just had a minor claim settled .. its been running since DECEMBER !!!

They offered 50/50 "as there are no third party witnesses" .. I have been strongly pointing out the photographic evidence of the damage, and asking the same question a zillion times  "how can I drive into someone when the damage is to the side of my vehicle .. my vehicle does not drive sideways".

On the last occasion I INSTRUCTED ( and I mean that word) my insurers to instigate Court proceedings .. or I would as the Burden of Proof is "The Balance of Probabilities" and given the photo's of the damage .. the probability is the guy hit me. I gave them permission to quote me to his insurers.

The claim was settled within 2 weeks in my favour, I recieved a cheque for my exces and a letter confirming the reinstatement of my No Claims bonus within a wek of the settlement.

It takes a while.. but stick to your guns .. you have the rules from the Highway Code .. she was in the wrong.

my basis for this is one line of your description...

Quote
I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.

IMHO you did not change lanes as you headed for the RIGHT lane of the two exit lanes .. and crossed the left lane of the roundabout as you had to...if you had gone for the left lane it would be your fault for changing lanes.


I apologise if I have misread your description
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Varche on 06 July 2010, 22:30:55
Quote
I thought that was the correct way of using a roundabout re Dave's graphic. but it may have changed. just lately coming into bournemouth cars have been using the left lane and going round the outside to turn right! it gets interesting when i am using the inside lane to go straight on. other interesting fact is these cars have a big L on the top. so is the law changing?


Believe it or not that is how Spanish learners are taught now. Worse they don't indicate until and only when you leave the roundabout. There is a three lane motorway interchange roundabout in Granada and it is like hell as everyone speeds and there are 7 roads of which 6 are busy dual carriageways. There are always accidents most times we use it.

I think the UK highway code is the best way especially if people drive a bit slower (some chance)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 22:31:45
As I understand the description of the OP, he was on the central hub of the roundabout, exited into lane one then retook position into lane 2, thus cutting across lane 1....

Quote
I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane {lane 2 to turn right, as I read it - H21}. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well. The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them. I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane { I understand this to be entering lane 1 - H21}of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes { I understand this to be re-entering lane 2 of the new road - H21}.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!


By my highlit understanding, cutting from lane 2 of the roundabout, into lane one on exit onto the new road, to re-enter lane 2 of the new road and sideswiping the car in lane 1 in the process....
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Entwood on 06 July 2010, 22:35:22
See what you are saying H .. but I took it as being in the right (inner) lane of the roundabout and taking the right exit lane .. therefore having to CROSS the roundabout left (outside) lane at 90 degrees... ish

Open to interpretation I guess .. :(
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Amigo on 06 July 2010, 22:39:13
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.

The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them.

I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!

So, you were in front, that gives you the right of way, going 3/4 way round the roundabout you have the choice of inside or outside lane.

She joins after you and excelerates to undertake you?  where, on the roundabout or the road after the exit.

If the 2nd one is the case she should have been watching you if you were in the fast lane.  The only time she has the right to undertake is coming up to a juction and you cant proceed due to traffic or conditions, but should not undertake in any of the above cases if you are indicating your intentions.

    

Bear in mind there is no such thing as a 'fast' lane.  Its lane 1, 2 or 3.....  ;)   :y

Disagree.  Its upto you if its safe to change lanes from 2 into 1.  Thats what mirrors are for and why your neck is able to swivel your head to look into your blindspot.  ;)  To manouever so early when only partly past - or if lane one is undertaking - is cutting someone up and why undertaking is not permissable.  How often has that happened to you, especially if on an LGV or towing??  Can cause more than a wee brown trouser moment....
I'm not licking up to admins but agree with Broocie on this one. I drive an artic & if exiting a roundabout after a 3/4 turn into a two lane exit the first thing i want to do is get over to the inside lane as cars behind me will be moving faster. However i must straighten the whole combo up before checking the n/s mirror to see if it's clear to pull to the left hand lane as other traffic might have entered said lane from a previous exit i passed before exiting myself.
    Sorry to be long winded but you need your wits about you especially in a larger vehicle. Spend a day in my cab & you would'nt believe the risks some car/van drivers put themselves in.

   Yes some truck drivers are idiots but not all!!! ::)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 06 July 2010, 22:41:40
Quote
Quote
Quote
anyone have any knowledge of the laws of driving on and leaving a roundabout?

I had a very small accident in april and my insurance company are being spectacularly rubbish about it. not only have they not even inspected my car to start fixing it but also they are saying it's totally my fault. i think it's her fault and unless it can be proven would accept half and half.

Ideally I want to know the 'rules of the road' viewpoint before discussing it more with them.

In summary (I hope this makes sense) - I was on a dual lane roundabout near High Wycombe/M40 in the inside/right lane. I entered on the north side and was due to exit at the third exit on the west side. This exit has two lanes as well.

The exits I passed on the south side were very close together and I didn't see anyone join the roundabout from them.

I indicated left to come off the roundabout and went across the outside/left lane of the roundabout headed for the right of the two exit lanes.... into a car that was trying to undertake me. she had entered the roundabout on the exit after me, claims I wasn't indicating, that she's seen lots of near misses at that location and that accelerating is the way to avoid them!

btw even though she had a clit, my car ended up worse off :(

any info much appreciated! :)

ps i have some pics which I'll try and post when i've signed up to that site!

So, you were in front, that gives you the right of way, going 3/4 way round the roundabout you have the choice of inside or outside lane.

She joins after you and excelerates to undertake you?  where, on the roundabout or the road after the exit.

If the 2nd one is the case she should have been watching you if you were in the fast lane.  The only time she has the right to undertake is coming up to a juction and you cant proceed due to traffic or conditions, but should not undertake in any of the above cases if you are indicating your intentions.

    

Bear in mind there is no such thing as a 'fast' lane.  Its lane 1, 2 or 3.....  ;)   :y


I should have classed them as lanes 1 and 2 , I used fast lane refering to the road if they were on the road after the round about.

But either way if Dave was on the roundabout 1st he had right of way, even if she joined at speed he was in front

Dave- print severel google earth maps off of the roundabout in question on a laser printer and draw youw movent on 1 pic in
a colour for you, another map in a coloured pen as her then do another map with both on.

but also do a map/picture at the pont where you were and she joined

plus another where you were when she was coming through on the inside.

Let a series of overhead drawings paint the picture as it happened.

admin edit to get rid of the extra return spacings...   ;)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: CaptainZok on 06 July 2010, 22:45:56
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 23:04:03
Quote
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 06 July 2010, 23:10:08
Quote
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?


I think H21's assessment is right, Dave moved lanes - even though he may have signalled his intentions, he's still obliged to ensure his chosen path is clear either by using the mirrors or looking (in this case) to his left.

The other driver should have been aware of traffic to her right and anticipated a possible move by this to the left towards the next exit - especially if that traffic is signalling its intention.

Seems like a 50/50 to me.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: CaptainZok on 06 July 2010, 23:12:24
Quote
Quote
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....
But he has to cross lane 1 of the rbt to exit on lane 2 of the slip.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Entwood on 06 July 2010, 23:12:49
Quote
Quote
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....


If the driver in lane 1 was taking the "next" exit and just kept going, then no lane changing needs to take place at all.. as  Dippy "crosses" lane 1 for the right hand exit lane .. he gets "T-boned" by the lane 1 driver.......

One wonders if there are any lane markings (dotted lines) or lane arrows on this roundabout that attempt to control such manouveres ??
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: CaptainZok on 06 July 2010, 23:17:41
He's posted this on his facebook.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs152.snc4/36963_141911252489751_100000126303347_411209_3583983_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: hotel21 on 06 July 2010, 23:20:23
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just wondering here if Dave hadn't crossed into lane 1 on the rbt but had exited straight onto lane 2 of the exit slip with the other vehicle on his nearside would it be classed as his fault or the fault of the other driver for trying to undertake him?

If he was lane 2 on approach, lane 2 on the roundabout then lane 2 on exit then the only way a collision would ensue is if the driver on lane 1 entered lane 2 and sideswiped him?

edit to add, provided he (Dave) did not enter lane 1 in the process....


If the driver in lane 1 was taking the "next" exit and just kept going, then no lane changing needs to take place at all.. as  Dippy "crosses" lane 1 for the right hand exit lane .. he gets "T-boned" by the lane 1 driver.......

One wonders if there are any lane markings (dotted lines) or lane arrows on this roundabout that attempt to control such manouveres ??

Assumption time, perhaps....

Dave is on lane 2 around the roundabout, intent on leaving directly into lane 2 of his new road.

clit driver enters the roundabout before/during/after Dave passes their entrance point, unseen by Dave.

clit driver is intent on travelling straight ahead to their exit, in the correct lane 1 (according to them) whilst passing Daves intended exit.

clit driver is 'undertaking' Dave - or possibly just in Daves blindspot.

Dave intends to exit but fails to appreciate the undertaking/blindspotted clit whilst leaving the roundabout onto his new road.

Collision.

Whether the clit is undertaking or not, its is incumbent on the exiting driver, I contend, that it is safe to carry out the intended manouever.

Likewise, the clit driver should appreciate the potential movement of other drivers already on the roundabout.

Best probable outcome? - 50/50.  But would need a shed load of photo's/description/narrative as onus is on Dave in this scenario, IMO, as he is changing route/direction.  clit driver is already on their chosen path around a roundabout, as potentially indicated by road markings/highway code as taught.....



Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 06 July 2010, 23:29:17
In fact Dave could have opened himself to a tug on these facts - so a 50/50 is quite a reasonable outcome in my view.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: dippydave on 07 July 2010, 22:11:05
wow. thank you guys for a lot of input! i'm whizzing to work now but will do the map graphic thing soon and return with an illustration of the whole story.

there's a lot of information to digest just from these posts! thank you so much :)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Terbs on 07 July 2010, 23:00:01
Hi Dave...
I have answered your pm...anything I can do to help.
The roundabout in question is just down the road from me and is a total pain. You do need your eyes everywhere, and it does tend to be an 'every man for himself' job.
There are many crashes there, mainly because of the closeness of the exits.
Peak period exits from the M40 are a nightmare. With all due respect to all posters of the correct ways to use roundabouts, I'm afraid it all goes out of the window here.
It seems that whichever lane you use coming round the roundabout, you will get cut up.
Usual scenario is cars coming from the southern exit to get onto the M40 use the inner lane, then cut across traffic entering from the A40 east or exiting from Tesco's albeit the latter are already on the roundabout.
To be quite frank, I avoid that roundabout like the plague. Living here, I obviously know other routes.
PM me again and I'll see if I can help. :y
For those of you you with Google Earth Street Views, locate yourself at the A40/M40 junction at Loudwater, near High Wycombe, Bucks, and drive around the roundabout...you will see what myself and Dave are talking about  ;)
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: mudflap on 08 July 2010, 07:25:50
Roundabouts - simple!

1. always give way to traffic coming from the right.
2. always watch the car in front - not the traffic coming from the right...until there is no car in front  ;)

no idea what i would do on a roundabout on the continent though...  :-?

Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: jerry on 08 July 2010, 07:46:53
looks 50/50 to me too Im afraid in as much that a slower speed and better awareness from both might have prevented the collision. Dont get me wrong here, Ive had my fair shair of pretty close calls on roundabouts and theyve all been down to one of us going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness . The problem is that there are so many roundabouts now where the lanes merge or cross and,particularly if they are new to you, its not always easy to work out which lane you should be in -which is made all the more difficult when perhaps the "correct" method is ignored and the route of habit as used by all the regular users prevails instead! Anyway, good luck. Certainly I cannot see that she is blameless in this.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Terbs on 08 July 2010, 08:52:11
Jerry....you have hit the nail on the head with your reply.
This roundabout IS notorious for speed.
In a nutshell, vehicles waiting to enter the roundabout (dual width on entry) see other vehicles zooming round on the inner lane, enter the roundabout on the outer lane then the car/s on the inner cut across at last minute to exit. The worst junction to exit to is the M40. Traffic tends to speed up PRIOR to entering the M40 slipway !!!! Also being on the downhill slope does not help.
To be quite frank, whichever lane you choose, it will be the wrong one!!!!!!! :y
The simple solution IMHO would be to make it a single carriage roundabout, but that won't happen

Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 08 July 2010, 08:56:44
Quote
looks 50/50 to me too Im afraid in as much that a slower speed and better awareness from both might have prevented the collision. Dont get me wrong here, Ive had my fair shair of pretty close calls on roundabouts and theyve all been down to one of us going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness . The problem is that there are so many roundabouts now where the lanes merge or cross and,particularly if they are new to you, its not always easy to work out which lane you should be in -which is made all the more difficult when perhaps the "correct" method is ignored and the route of habit as used by all the regular users prevails instead! Anyway, good luck. Certainly I cannot see that she is blameless in this.



Quote
going too fast in conjunction with lack of better awareness .


Generally the case with most road traffic incidents Jerry - sadly.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: jerry on 08 July 2010, 10:11:31
true, but whoever plans these multilane roundabouts could do a far better job in making it clear exactly which lane you need to be in for which exit and avoid all this madness of having to switch lanes in heavy traffic. Of course "slow and steady" would help but, as you say, all too often its quite the reverse. There is a very straightforward roundabout near us and if vehicles are going straight over they dont even bother to slow down on approach from the dual carriageway. Obviously all that stuff about slowing when anticipating a hazard bypassed them. Mind you, round here I dont think they realize what their indicators are for either!!
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Chris_H on 08 July 2010, 11:06:30
The fundamental cause of the problem is (as someone has said) that the exits are close together.

Proper signalling (by which I mean effective and un-mistakable) requires that we start signalling to exit, AS we pass the exit prior to leaving.  If the exits are close together, there is NO ALTERNATIVE but to slow our speed substantially.  Indicators flash at a legally-enforceable rate (and I have no argument with the rate), drivers joining the roundabout have to (read as 'should do' ;)) scan a number of directions and objects over a wide angular range.

The time it takes to recognise an active indicator is significant even if we assume that the lamp is prominent on the vehicle (and we are getting some very stupid indicator designs these days e.g Audi Q5 rears with brake lights on).

So, if the roundabout is busy we have to do a blinding start to get on, then somehow lose speed rapidly without getting rear-ended, before exiting at a snail's pace.

I have to agree that knock-for-knock is your best hope unless you have something special that you haven't said.
Title: Re: Roundabout driving laws and common sense
Post by: Danny on 09 July 2010, 20:56:46
if you were choosing the right lane on your west road after entering from north, and she was also taking the west exit after entering the roundabout from the east she really should have not only seen you, but stayed in the left lane, being along side you as you both head west.

if she'd been heading north after joining from east, she should have joined the roundabout into your lane and would have been behind you in your lane if giving way properly