Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 20 July 2010, 22:41:35

Title: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Nickbat on 20 July 2010, 22:41:35
I love animals, but pests are pests. This year, I'll have no pears from my pear tree, no cherries from my cherry tree and no strawberries from my planters. :(

Why?

Grey squirrels, a feisty young one in particular. >:( >:(

Luckily, though, I didn't take it upon myself to rid myself of the problem the way this chap did.

What are your opinions?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7898494/Hundreds-face-fines-for-killing-squirrels.html 
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Debs. on 20 July 2010, 22:52:13
What about mouse and rat pests; do they now have similar protection from a "rodentine rights act"?  :-/

Poisoning or trapping rats is the method of choice for controlling their insanitary numbers; are they now under the protective wing of the RSCPA. :o
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 July 2010, 22:59:45
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 20 July 2010, 23:02:17
The answer is lead pellets, not a water butt. No unnecessary suffering there. :y

Kevin
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: rikki_essex on 20 July 2010, 23:04:56
just another stupid court decision what will the idiots come up with next? Sorry sir you cant kill a fox like that you need a sledge hammer and a vice.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 20 July 2010, 23:04:59
I have quite a few running around, there must be at least one family judging by the size difference in some of them.

They don't bother me in the least as they seem to stick to the larger trees in the garden.

I can't agree with the man drowning the squirrel all the same. [smiley=thumbdown.gif]
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 20 July 2010, 23:07:03
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y

Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food

It isn't surprising cem as this country is all but bankrupt. :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: The Red Baron on 20 July 2010, 23:13:00
Quote
I love animals, but pests are pests. This year, I'll have no pears from my pear tree, no cherries from my cherry tree and no strawberries from my planters. :(

Why?

Grey squirrels, a feisty young one in particular. >:( >:(

Luckily, though, I didn't take it upon myself to rid myself of the problem the way this chap did.

What are your opinions?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7898494/Hundreds-face-fines-for-killing-squirrels.html 
& it happened here in burton where i live. :o
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 20 July 2010, 23:16:02
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y


Congratulations King cem 8-) :y :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Nickbat on 20 July 2010, 23:25:27
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y

You must remember though, Cem, that the grey squirrel is NOT native to the UK, having been imported from America. It has driven out the native red squirrel, such that the latter is endangered. Interestingly, though the red was not a prolific despoiler of our vegetation, preferring to much away hazel nuts most of the time.

As for drowning, is it really less humane than shooting or poisoning, both of which are legal acts of extermination? Poisoning, unless I am mistaken, causes internal bleeding and a long, drawn out demise. At least drowning is relatively swift and painless (though not psychologically so).   
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: The Red Baron on 20 July 2010, 23:38:05
had to drown a kitten that was born deformed, something that in my eyes is not easy to do, taking a little innocent life even if a cat. :'(
as for the grey, they are a pest.
rules & regs sometimes stink dont they.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 July 2010, 23:39:03
Quote
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y


Congratulations King cem 8-) :y :y

Thanks Zulu :) :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: The Red Baron on 20 July 2010, 23:42:19
Quote
Quote
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y


Congratulations King cem 8-) :y :y

Thanks Zulu :) :y
blimmey, only just noticed. well done. :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 July 2010, 00:00:35
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
they dont have money to go shopping for food.. :-/

so your trees are their food source to survive ..

you must be proud :) :y


Congratulations King cem 8-) :y :y

Thanks Zulu :) :y
blimmey, only just noticed. well done. :y

Thanks :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: plym ian on 21 July 2010, 01:07:08
‘Pests’ like the grey squirrel can be killed in a ‘humane way’, such as a blow to the back of the head or shooting, but drowning or beating the animal to death is illegal.

BUT RUNNING THEM OVER IS FINE :)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Banjax on 21 July 2010, 01:28:52
i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Gaffers on 21 July 2010, 06:06:36
Quote
The answer is lead pellets, not a water butt. No unnecessary suffering there. :y

Kevin

 :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Varche on 21 July 2010, 09:13:44
We mess with nature but the vast majority don't have a clue and care less. Stupid rules made by stupid people in their stupid ivory towers.

Bring back the gamekeeper. We used to get sixpence a rat from our local farmer. ;D
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: jerry on 21 July 2010, 10:09:16
Being a bit of a softie I dont like the thought of killing any animal (though Id never go without a bacon butty of course!), but pests obviously need to be dealt with and the grey can be a pest. Totally agree however that the method of killing should be as quick as posssible to avoid any unnnecessary suffering. As someone once told me in the pet trade when having to get rid of those animals who were too sick, thats why  all small animals have tails and all pet shops a brick wall. Smashing the heads against said wall may be quick but is now, of course, illegal so that to dispose of the sickly mice/hamsters etc youve bought for 50p you now have to take them to the vet for a lethal injection and a yellow bag disposal at whatever the cost is now.
ps-anyone up for a philosophical debate as to HOW animals feel pain ie us humans have a concept of "self"
,sort of "I think therefore I am" to quote Descartes, so when we feel pain we recognize it as harm being done to our "self". But do animals-even the smart ones like dolphins-have that concept? Do they simply "experience" pain or do they too  recognize that it is happening to "them"? Ah well, just a thought... :-/
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: steve_daly on 21 July 2010, 10:26:36
Quote
ps-anyone up for a philosophical debate as to HOW animals feel pain ie us humans have a concept of "self"
,sort of "I think therefore I am" to quote Descartes, so when we feel pain we recognize it as harm being done to our "self". But do animals-even the smart ones like dolphins-have that concept? Do they simply "experience" pain or do they too  recognize that it is happening to "them"? Ah well, just a thought... :-/

I should imagine that depends on how intelligent the animal is in the first place. I am sure there is a vast difference in the levels of understanding between mice and dolphins.

Instict and self preservation would also play a part. I am sure a fox being hunted on a Sunday morning by countless hounds is well aware that if it doesn't get away, it's dead.

Was that squirrel 'aware' it was drowning and ultimately going to die, who knows? Not quite sure that the life of a squirrel is worth £1500 I bet you could get drunk, drive and kill someone and probably end up paying less in fines.


Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Nickbat on 21 July 2010, 10:38:41
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i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 


The point you're missing is that it is because there has been tampering with the natural balance through the introduction of grey squirrels (as with cane toads in Australia) that we have this situation. It's got nothing to do with cutting down trees, concreting etc., etc. But you knew that didn't you?  ;)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Terbs on 21 July 2010, 10:40:19
Luckily...no squirells here...BUT...as I said in a similar topic...plaqued with Wood Pigeons.  >:( and I MEAN plaqued !!!

We are not allowed to keep Homing or Racing pigeons around here....but are not allowed to do anything to get rid of Wood Pigeons...

Now we have the latest conservation exercise ..Red Kites.
People stand in my garden, watching them soaring low level above the roof tops...with the usual... 'Oh, aren't they gorgeous'....which turns to 'Oh..bl***y hell' and then leg it indoors...when half a dozen swoop down into the neighbours back garden, then swoop back up squabbling over a bit of food.  :)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Banjax on 21 July 2010, 12:42:10
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Quote
i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 


The point you're missing is that it is because there has been tampering with the natural balance through the introduction of grey squirrels (as with cane toads in Australia) that we have this situation. It's got nothing to do with cutting down trees, concreting etc., etc. But you knew that didn't you?  ;)



ah yes, Nickbat the conservationist......i thought us humans had little effect tho? besides the only threat from grey squirrels is to reds, and since you have none down there.................. ::) ;D :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: jerry on 21 July 2010, 12:51:22
Do seagulls count as pests?If they dont, they should. Loads of them round here and always targetting MY car, mostly just after Ive washed it. >:( Ive kept pigeons before, but as Radiomarko will no doubt testify, pigeon sh*t aint nothing compared to what a bloody seagull can drop all over your pride and joy!
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: doog on 21 July 2010, 13:04:39
What ever next eh?
next they will be stopping people from allowing their donkey to go paragliding cos its apparently cruel   ;)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 July 2010, 13:06:20
Yeah....congrats Cem... :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: mantahatch on 21 July 2010, 13:10:30
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Quote
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i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 


The point you're missing is that it is because there has been tampering with the natural balance through the introduction of grey squirrels (as with cane toads in Australia) that we have this situation. It's got nothing to do with cutting down trees, concreting etc., etc. But you knew that didn't you?  ;)



ah yes, Nickbat the conservationist......i thought us humans had little effect tho? besides the only threat from grey squirrels is to reds, and since you have none down there.................. ::) ;D :y


Sorry Banjax, but I beg to differ, Brownsea Island in Poole harbour Dorset. They have quite a strong colony of reds  :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 21 July 2010, 13:11:51
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Sorry Banjax, but I beg to differ, Brownsea Island in Poole harbour Dorset. They have quite a strong colony of reds  :y

You can see them on the Isle of Wight as well. :y

Kevin
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Nickbat on 21 July 2010, 13:20:09
Quote
Quote
Quote
i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 


The point you're missing is that it is because there has been tampering with the natural balance through the introduction of grey squirrels (as with cane toads in Australia) that we have this situation. It's got nothing to do with cutting down trees, concreting etc., etc. But you knew that didn't you?  ;)



ah yes, Nickbat the conservationist......i thought us humans had little effect tho? besides the only threat from grey squirrels is to reds, and since you have none down there.................. ::) ;D :y

Twisting and turning as usual, bj. Yes, I AM a conservationist in the broad sense of the term. And I have NEVER said that humanity has no effect on the environment. Of course it does, just not the catastrophic climate change so favoured by the  dim-witted.

You always try to slur me. I just don't understand why. :-?
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 July 2010, 16:55:01
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Yeah....congrats Cem... :y

Thanks Optimist  :y
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 July 2010, 16:56:51
Quote
i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 

 :y :y

Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 July 2010, 17:02:46
Quote
Being a bit of a softie I dont like the thought of killing any animal (though Id never go without a bacon butty of course!), but pests obviously need to be dealt with and the grey can be a pest. Totally agree however that the method of killing should be as quick as posssible to avoid any unnnecessary suffering. As someone once told me in the pet trade when having to get rid of those animals who were too sick, thats why  all small animals have tails and all pet shops a brick wall. Smashing the heads against said wall may be quick but is now, of course, illegal so that to dispose of the sickly mice/hamsters etc youve bought for 50p you now have to take them to the vet for a lethal injection and a yellow bag disposal at whatever the cost is now.
ps-anyone up for a philosophical debate as to HOW animals feel pain ie us humans have a concept of "self"
,sort of "I think therefore I am" to quote Descartes, so when we feel pain we recognize it as harm being done to our "self". But do animals-even the smart ones like dolphins-have that concept? Do they simply "experience" pain or do they too  recognize that it is happening to "them"? Ah well, just a thought... :-/

by classification all mammals including squirrels and rats have a complex nerve systems and comparing dna's, similiarity with human is %97..And they are very conscious about death..

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-25-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men.html



I see some members dont give importance to them and deciding how to kill :(

thats unacceptable for me, so I wont post in that thread anymore..

Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: jerry on 21 July 2010, 17:12:37
I do remember many moons ago an artist/writer mate making an anti-cruelty film about pork pies. He actually conned Bowyers or someone into giving him some promo material too! Anyway, the most memorable/moving  bit was him narrating a list of all the more "unsavoury" parts of a pig that go into a pork pie over footage of pigs going to the slaughter and their screams and obvious terror-to me it showed that these animals definately knew what was coming! :(
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Banjax on 21 July 2010, 19:02:51
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Quote
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i agree with king cem - tell you what - cut down the trees, dig out the plants, roll up the grass and concrete the lot, let nature never darken your door again........the impudence  :y 


The point you're missing is that it is because there has been tampering with the natural balance through the introduction of grey squirrels (as with cane toads in Australia) that we have this situation. It's got nothing to do with cutting down trees, concreting etc., etc. But you knew that didn't you?  ;)



ah yes, Nickbat the conservationist......i thought us humans had little effect tho? besides the only threat from grey squirrels is to reds, and since you have none down there.................. ::) ;D :y

Twisting and turning as usual, bj. Yes, I AM a conservationist in the broad sense of the term. And I have NEVER said that humanity has no effect on the environment. Of course it does, just not the catastrophic climate change so favoured by the  dim-witted.

You always try to slur me. I just don't understand why. :-?

how's accusing you of being a conservationis a slur? its not a role i see you excelling in to be blunt, next you'll be out supporting the hunt on "conservation" grounds no doubt  :y

but anyway, be glad they chose your bountiful garden and the fruit's not going to waste...just enjoy nature.........man ;)


Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Bent valve on 22 July 2010, 19:43:29
I love my garden, it is heaving with all sorts of wildlife including squirrels, wood pigeons and the odd engine,old motorbike ect. I dont have a problem with them. I imagine its the garden gnome, fake wishing well types with their poxy twee gardens c/w neat borders that consider these creatures to be pests ::)
Chill out and leave the poor buggers alone!
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Richie London on 22 July 2010, 19:53:44
Quote
I love my garden, it is heaving with all sorts of wildlife including squirrels, wood pigeons and the odd engine,old motorbike ect. I dont have a problem with them. I imagine its the garden gnome, fake wishing well types with their poxy twee gardens c/w neat borders that consider these creatures to be pests ::)
Chill out and leave the poor buggers alone!


grey squirrel are classified as vermin. so i was told by the rentokil bloke who set traps in my loft for the  squirells that destroyed the roof felt and caused water to leak trhough costing a lot of money in repairs.

Squirrels are primary carriers of tick fever, powassan virus and rabies.

Tick fever is a virus that results in, obviously, a fever, chills, headache, eye pain, muscle pain, nausea and vomiting. Tick fever can be a severe illness, especially in children and the elderly.

Powassan virus can cause severe encephalitis in humans and has up to a 60 percent fatality in squirrels. Infected humans may experience sleepiness, disorientation and become semicomatose.

Rabies, a virus, progressively paralyzes and can kill any mammal, including humans. Rabies is generally contracted through contact with an infected squirrel through biting. Though humans should avoid contact with any squirrels, if a squirrel seems especially fearless around humans, it could be infected
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Bent valve on 22 July 2010, 20:59:28
Quote
Quote
I love my garden, it is heaving with all sorts of wildlife including squirrels, wood pigeons and the odd engine,old motorbike ect. I dont have a problem with them. I imagine its the garden gnome, fake wishing well types with their poxy twee gardens c/w neat borders that consider these creatures to be pests ::)
Chill out and leave the poor buggers alone!


grey squirrel are classified as vermin. so i was told by the rentokil bloke who set traps in my loft for the  squirells that destroyed the roof felt and caused water to leak trhough costing a lot of money in repairs.

Squirrels are primary carriers of tick fever, powassan virus and rabies.
Tick fever is a virus that results in, obviously, a fever, chills, headache, eye pain, muscle pain, nausea and vomiting. Tick fever can be a severe illness, especially in children and the elderly.

Powassan virus can cause severe encephalitis in humans and has up to a 60 percent fatality in squirrels. Infected humans may experience sleepiness, disorientation and become semicomatose.

Rabies, a virus, progressively paralyzes and can kill any mammal, including humans. Rabies is generally contracted through contact with an infected squirrel through biting. Though humans should avoid contact with any squirrels, if a squirrel seems especially fearless around humans, it could be infected
Do you actually believe that?
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Entwood on 22 July 2010, 21:06:02
Quote
Quote
I love my garden, it is heaving with all sorts of wildlife including squirrels, wood pigeons and the odd engine,old motorbike ect. I dont have a problem with them. I imagine its the garden gnome, fake wishing well types with their poxy twee gardens c/w neat borders that consider these creatures to be pests ::)
Chill out and leave the poor buggers alone!


grey squirrel are classified as vermin. so i was told by the rentokil bloke who set traps in my loft for the  squirells that destroyed the roof felt and caused water to leak trhough costing a lot of money in repairs.

Squirrels are primary carriers of tick fever, powassan virus and rabies.

Tick fever is a virus that results in, obviously, a fever, chills, headache, eye pain, muscle pain, nausea and vomiting. Tick fever can be a severe illness, especially in children and the elderly.

Powassan virus can cause severe encephalitis in humans and has up to a 60 percent fatality in squirrels. Infected humans may experience sleepiness, disorientation and become semicomatose.

Rabies, a virus, progressively paralyzes and can kill any mammal, including humans. Rabies is generally contracted through contact with an infected squirrel through biting. Though humans should avoid contact with any squirrels, if a squirrel seems especially fearless around humans, it could be infected

As there are NO carriers of rabies in this country .. that  statement has just destroyed your argument totally. UK is, and has been "rabies free" since 1902 .. all reported cases since then have been acquired overseas.

Rabies is usually contracted from dogs.

I care not of the entrenched arguments about the squirrel .. but I do care about accurate, factual information .. not scaremongering, headline grabbing fantasies. ... especially from such highly trustworthy sources as "the rentokil bloke" .. please .. at least do some research before making farcical statements

http://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/Rabies/GeneralInformation/ClassicalRabiesFAQs



:(
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Richie London on 22 July 2010, 21:33:07
Quote
Quote
Quote
I love my garden, it is heaving with all sorts of wildlife including squirrels, wood pigeons and the odd engine,old motorbike ect. I dont have a problem with them. I imagine its the garden gnome, fake wishing well types with their poxy twee gardens c/w neat borders that consider these creatures to be pests ::)
Chill out and leave the poor buggers alone!


grey squirrel are classified as vermin. so i was told by the rentokil bloke who set traps in my loft for the  squirells that destroyed the roof felt and caused water to leak trhough costing a lot of money in repairs.

Squirrels are primary carriers of tick fever, powassan virus and rabies.

Tick fever is a virus that results in, obviously, a fever, chills, headache, eye pain, muscle pain, nausea and vomiting. Tick fever can be a severe illness, especially in children and the elderly.

Powassan virus can cause severe encephalitis in humans and has up to a 60 percent fatality in squirrels. Infected humans may experience sleepiness, disorientation and become semicomatose.

Rabies, a virus, progressively paralyzes and can kill any mammal, including humans. Rabies is generally contracted through contact with an infected squirrel through biting. Though humans should avoid contact with any squirrels, if a squirrel seems especially fearless around humans, it could be infected

As there are NO carriers of rabies in this country .. that  statement has just destroyed your argument totally. UK is, and has been "rabies free" since 1902 .. all reported cases since then have been acquired overseas.

Rabies is usually contracted from dogs.

I care not of the entrenched arguments about the squirrel .. but I do care about accurate, factual information .. not scaremongering, headline grabbing fantasies. ... especially from such highly trustworthy sources as "the rentokil bloke" .. please .. at least do some research before making farcical statements

http://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/Rabies/GeneralInformation/ClassicalRabiesFAQs



:(


your not all there entwood, what are you on about scaremongering and headline grabbing fantasies, get a life for break sake.  if someone comes to my house to destroy squirels in my loft, and that man is trained to destroy them, if he tells me what diseases they can carry who am i to disbelieve him, im a carpenter not a pest control specialist, if so i would of got rid of them myself.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Entwood on 22 July 2010, 22:00:25
You had the ability to find and cut/paste the info on "tick fever, powassan virus and rabies" ... I'm sure you could have actually researched the information .. or did your "rentokill bloke" tell you all that stuff ?? If so .. you have a damned good memory ..   :)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Chimpchoker on 23 July 2010, 14:08:14
Quote
I love animals, but pests are pests. This year, I'll have no pears from my pear tree, no cherries from my cherry tree and no strawberries from my planters. :(

Why?

Grey squirrels, a feisty young one in particular. >:( >:(

Luckily, though, I didn't take it upon myself to rid myself of the problem the way this chap did.

What are your opinions?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7898494/Hundreds-face-fines-for-killing-squirrels.html 

Air rifle then either skin and stew it or sell it for £3.00 a go to many butchers if you have a good few of them.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: Varche on 23 July 2010, 18:16:54
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Quote
I love animals, but pests are pests. This year, I'll have no pears from my pear tree, no cherries from my cherry tree and no strawberries from my planters. :(

Why?

Grey squirrels, a feisty young one in particular. >:( >:(

Luckily, though, I didn't take it upon myself to rid myself of the problem the way this chap did.

What are your opinions?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7898494/Hundreds-face-fines-for-killing-squirrels.html 

Air rifle then either skin and stew it or sell it for £3.00 a go to many butchers if you have a good few of them.
mm Squirrel paella and sangria. Lovely ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on this?
Post by: cruisetopoland on 23 July 2010, 18:38:23
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-10725024

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D