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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: derry lad on 04 August 2010, 17:06:18

Title: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: derry lad on 04 August 2010, 17:06:18
hi does anyone know what is involved in this,or roughly how much it costs?
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 04 August 2010, 17:14:36
This may help :y

http://www.pat-testing.info/

http://www.total-ets.co.uk/portable-appliance-testing.php

Insofar as costing is concerned it may be a case of shopping around.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Chris_H on 04 August 2010, 17:35:55
It involves physical examination of leads and equipment then testing for leakage with a PAT Tester.  Then stick on a label to enable you to charge again later.

Money for old rope I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: redelitev6 on 04 August 2010, 17:44:57
Money for old rope is putting it mildly >:( a VERY nice little earner for somebody
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 04 August 2010, 17:50:51
Quote
It involves physical examination of leads and equipment then testing for leakage with a PAT Tester.  Then stick on a label to enable you to charge again later.

Money for old rope I'm afraid.


Quote
Then stick on a label to enable you to charge again later.


 ;D ;D ;D outstanding  ;D ;D 8-)
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: derry lad on 04 August 2010, 19:53:53
im a bored electrician looking for a nice little earner!! :y
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: dbug on 04 August 2010, 21:39:34
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Kevin Wood on 04 August 2010, 21:45:49
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Chris_H on 04 August 2010, 22:04:26
I may have told this story before but I have not had many meetings with PAT testers.

I was working in a Soho a/v dubbing facility doing general maintenance and installations, so this guy comes in.

I give him a box of 100 assorted 13amp-to-IEC leads and he goes through them in about half an a hour and because they're molded, duff ones get thrown out.  He also did 30-odd racks of electrical stuff including triple-VHS copiers, digi-betas, D1s, 1" C-format, bla, bla, bla.  That took him 2 days.

Cables were 70p a go I remember, and after he'd gone I found in the box a male 13Amp to male IEC 60309 (commando) lead!! Yes a mains lead wired pins-to-pins and he passed it!!

Then I opened a switch box out of the racks that selected a/v sources with illuminated radio-buttons (the old latch-bar clunky type).  Inside, the wires had been cut off the IEC chassis connector, leaving three inches of mains wire stubs in mid-air.  Also running around loose in the unit was a PP3 battery that some cowboy had lashed-up in place of the power supply (long gone) and threatened to brush on the mains wires any moment.  Needless to say, PAT testers don't open rack units so it had the reassuring sticker on it.

The guy did try to persuade me to take up PAT testing and said it cost 250GBP for the tester and 250GBP for the course.

Like I said - money for old rope.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Kevin Wood on 04 August 2010, 22:17:16
Quote
Cables were 70p a go I remember, and after he'd gone I found in the box a male 13Amp to male IEC 60309 (commando) lead!! Yes a mains lead wired pins-to-pins and he passed it!!

 :o :o :o

"Hmm. Don't know what this is - so Pass" :y

Just goes to show what a waste of time and money it is if you're just going to train a monkey to press a button and tick a box.

Kevin
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 04 August 2010, 22:53:20
Quote
Quote
Cables were 70p a go I remember, and after he'd gone I found in the box a male 13Amp to male IEC 60309 (commando) lead!! Yes a mains lead wired pins-to-pins and he passed it!!

 :o :o :o

"Hmm. Don't know what this is - so Pass" :y

Just goes to show what a waste of time and money it is if you're just going to train a monkey to press a button and tick a box.

Kevin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Vamps on 04 August 2010, 23:23:58
A pat tester cut the plug off my Iron once, nylon outer a little frayed... ::) ::) I cut the cable back a little and put the plug back on.... :D :D :D
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Ken T on 04 August 2010, 23:30:45
I don't think PAT testing is a legal requirement, you just have to show that you took steps to make sure stuff is safe.

If you are paying less than £3 per item, its not being tested properly. Crap test equipment, person who doesn't understand what they are doing, etc, etc.

Ken
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 04 August 2010, 23:32:40
Quote
A pat tester cut the plug off my Iron once, nylon outer a little frayed... ::) ::) I cut the cable back a little and put the plug back on.... :D :D :D

 ;D ;D ;D splendid  ;D :y
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: dbug on 05 August 2010, 01:34:16
Quote
I don't think PAT testing is a legal requirement, you just have to show that you took steps to make sure stuff is safe.

If you are paying less than £3 per item, its not being tested properly. Crap test equipment, person who doesn't understand what they are doing, etc, etc.

Ken

Thats bollux mate!!
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Xplicit 2.0 on 05 August 2010, 08:41:06
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

PAT testing equipment aint cheap tho as i have looked into doing this as you dont need any qualifications to do it (just good common sense)
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 05 August 2010, 09:19:43
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

PAT testing equipment aint cheap tho as i have looked into doing this as you dont need any qualifications to do it (just good common sense)


Quote
you dont need any qualifications to do it (just good common sense)

That seems to be a disaster in waiting as far as I can see. - How many people running around out there can be said to have a sufficiency of common sense. :-/ :-/ :-/
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 August 2010, 09:30:59
Quote
That seems to be a disaster in waiting as far as I can see. - How many people running around out there can be said to have a sufficiency of common sense. :-/ :-/ :-/

That's exactly why we have to tick all these boxes. There was a time when the average joe had the common sense to realise that an appliance with a frayed cable, or a cable with a male mains plug on each end, was an accident waiting to happen. :(

Kevin
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 05 August 2010, 10:07:50
Quote
Quote
That seems to be a disaster in waiting as far as I can see. - How many people running around out there can be said to have a sufficiency of common sense. :-/ :-/ :-/

That's exactly why we have to tick all these boxes. There was a time when the average joe had the common sense to realise that an appliance with a frayed cable, or a cable with a male mains plug on each end, was an accident waiting to happen. :(

Kevin


Agreed K. - Curiously, the more technologically advanced we become many are less able are to function at any practical level of good sense. :(

Has the ability of thinking for one's self finally been done for by big government? 
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: omegadan67 on 05 August 2010, 12:53:51
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

everybody has to make a living and given that the pat tester has to be approved by the niceic etc to be able to do the job with in the law plus the buck stops with him if the tested item then fries someone what price for safety??????
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: omegadan67 on 05 August 2010, 12:56:38
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

PAT testing equipment aint cheap tho as i have looked into doing this as you dont need any qualifications to do it (just good common sense)


Quote
you dont need any qualifications to do it (just good common sense)

That seems to be a disaster in waiting as far as I can see. - How many people running around out there can be said to have a sufficiency of common sense. :-/ :-/ :-/
  you do need to have passed a test and be affiliated to a reconized electrial test provider unless you hold a c&g 2391-10
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Xplicit 2.0 on 05 August 2010, 13:11:54
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

everybody has to make a living and given that the pat tester has to be approved by the niceic etc to be able to do the job with in the law plus the buck stops with him if the tested item then fries someone what price for safety??????

nope, not true. Yes they do have to get tested but not by bodies such as NIE EIC or NAPIT hence why you dont need to be qualified to do PAT testing  :y
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Chris_H on 05 August 2010, 14:15:53
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

everybody has to make a living and given that the pat tester has to be approved by the niceic etc to be able to do the job with in the law plus the buck stops with him if the tested item then fries someone what price for safety??????

nope, not true. Yes they do have to get tested but not by bodies such as NIE EIC or NAPIT hence why you dont need to be qualified to do PAT testing  :y
Not only that.  It's a bit like our MOT test.  If the kit fails or kills someone the next day it's nigh-on impossible to prove that the fault was present when the test was carried out.  As soon as the PAT-tester's back is turned, you or I might trap a wire in a door or anything.

The example I gave above was not a suitable site for a PAT tester to do.  There was too much equipment that he was unqualified to touch let alone pull apart to examine.  Also there were clearly cowboys around who made cables and modified equipment making them unsafe.

A good PAT tester would be of use in an office where staff were banned from any DIY-type modifications, and equipment was from respected manufacturers. (I guess! ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 05 August 2010, 14:47:05
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

everybody has to make a living and given that the pat tester has to be approved by the niceic etc to be able to do the job with in the law plus the buck stops with him if the tested item then fries someone what price for safety??????

Quote
everybody has to make a living

Perhaps so Dan, but at what price?

Quote
pat tester has to be approved

To what standard, and do they have a formally recognised skill based on their knowledge of the subject matter gained through technical qualification?

Quote
if the tested item then fries someone

Would it not be too late then Dan?  Surely the examination of any appliance in the commercial environment should require people who are fully qualified and are up to date with the latest regulations.

I would have thought that the debacle over Home Improvement Packs (Hip’s) in the property field would have shown us that form-fillers cannot provide a thoroughly professional, accurate and legally binding service.



Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: omegadan67 on 05 August 2010, 15:36:43
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Just had PAT testing done at work - ~250 items @£0.80 each item, to include repairs less than 10 mins (incl plugs/fuses/flex) with report/certificate supplied in various electronic formats.  Lots of competition around - original quotes > than £1.20/item with no repairs!!
HTH  :y

I'm in the wrong business! ;D
Visually inspect. Plug in. Press button. Pass = Green sticker, Fail = Red sticker or bin. £1.20 kerching! ;D

Kevin

everybody has to make a living and given that the pat tester has to be approved by the niceic etc to be able to do the job with in the law plus the buck stops with him if the tested item then fries someone what price for safety??????

Quote
everybody has to make a living

Perhaps so Dan, but at what price?

Quote
pat tester has to be approved

To what standard, and do they have a formally recognised skill based on their knowledge of the subject matter gained through technical qualification?

Quote
if the tested item then fries someone

Would it not be too late then Dan?  Surely the examination of any appliance in the commercial environment should require people who are fully qualified and are up to date with the latest regulations.

I would have thought that the debacle over Home Improvement Packs (Hip’s) in the property field would have shown us that form-fillers cannot provide a thoroughly professional, accurate and legally binding service.



being 17 th edition quailified electricion and also c&g qualified to 2391-10 and 2392-10 I would just like to point out that in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing, if you are self employed then you should be at least 2391 qualified. if you are not you could be prossecuted for breach of statory rules. if you are reported.

AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.
which would not be difficult to prove if you passed the appliance and it is faulty because your name goes on the shcedule  of works attached to the distribution board.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Chris_H on 05 August 2010, 16:20:25
Quote
being 17 th edition quailified electricion and also c&g qualified to 2391-10 and 2392-10 I would just like to point out that in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing, if you are self employed then you should be at least 2391 qualified. if you are not you could be prossecuted for breach of statory rules. if you are reported.

AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.
which would not be difficult to prove if you passed the appliance and it is faulty because your name goes on the shcedule  of works attached to the distribution board.
We're talking Portable Appliances here, not fixed installs, so distribution boards and schedules of works wouldn't come into it.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 05 August 2010, 17:04:50
Quote



being 17 th edition quailified electricion and also c&g qualified to 2391-10 and 2392-10 I would just like to point out that in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing, if you are self employed then you should be at least 2391 qualified. if you are not you could be prossecuted for breach of statory rules. if you are reported.

AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.
which would not be difficult to prove if you passed the appliance and it is faulty because your name goes on the shcedule  of works attached to the distribution board. [/quote]

Thanks for clearing some of that up for me Dan :y

If you have a look at the question posed by Ms Cabbage over on the following, you perhaps can see why I would like a fully qualified electrician conversant with up to date regulations to conduct these saftey tests;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=32707&start=0&tstart=0

Although in essence it seems that anyone realistically offering these services would have to be an electrician with a C&G 2377 certificate at minimum. :-/
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Sixstring on 05 August 2010, 17:22:23
Have been PAT testing for the last 4 years, 17th edition IEE regs and 2391 C+G,  was charging £1.50 per item, and for my area it appears to be cheap. seeing as you are putting your name on an official document, you should ALWAYS take the greatest care, and not cut corners when testing.

Don't fail much, but have repaired loads of insulation out of plugs and frayed cables at the time, always carry a reel of 3 core with me.......(its all chargeable)

Not really money for old rope, consider travelling for example from my place into Bristol centre, 53 mile round trip, to do 25 items at £1.50 per item. With the cost of £5.50 factored in for the severn bridge toll, its not a mega earner........
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 August 2010, 17:25:26
Quote
in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing

So nothing wrong with an employer sending the tea lady round with a PAT tester on her trolley. ;)

Quote
AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.

.. and by the same token my MOT tester, who last saw my car in January, can be charged if I have a car accident on the way home tonight? Both testing procedures, when properly carried out, prove the item is safe within a limited set of parameters at the time they are tested and not a minute after. At best all either will do is pick up persistent use of equipment with an easily detectable fault not guarantee its' safety at any point in the future.

Kevin
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 05 August 2010, 17:38:19
Irrespective of the qualifications required to carry out this testing, it's not difficult to suspect that it's less about safety and more about arse covering. ::) ::)
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: tidla on 05 August 2010, 23:37:02
Quote
Irrespective of the qualifications required to carry out this testing, it's not difficult to suspect that it's less about safety and more about arse covering. ::) ::)

mechanic lad down south blew himself across the workshop floor anfter the commercial tyre he was inflating from flat exploded.(twin wheel rears)

a tyre company is now the only authorized ones to inflate tyres much to the dismay of other fitters.

it should be obvious that a flat tyre/very low pressure requires a punture repair.

common sense/inexeperience??

Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: omegadan67 on 06 August 2010, 15:19:02
Quote
Quote
in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing

So nothing wrong with an employer sending the tea lady round with a PAT tester on her trolley. ;)

Quote
AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.

.. and by the same token my MOT tester, who last saw my car in January, can be charged if I have a car accident on the way home tonight? Both testing procedures, when properly carried out, prove the item is safe within a limited set of parameters at the time they are tested and not a minute after. At best all either will do is pick up persistent use of equipment with an easily detectable fault not guarantee its' safety at any point in the future.

Kevin
I doubt you would be able to do that seeing as the mot is for then and then not for a period of time.

PAT testing is done to prove the appliance is fit for purpose for a period of 12 months mot is not,

How refreshing that people still comment on things they dont know anything about, and continue to argue even though know they are wrong.

the only true statment i know is : A little information is dangerous in the wrong
hands


Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: derry lad on 06 August 2010, 15:34:21
cheers for the heads up omegadan....its definitly something il be adding to my CV in the next few weeks  :y
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Kevin Wood on 06 August 2010, 16:20:27
Quote
I doubt you would be able to do that seeing as the mot is for then and then not for a period of time.

PAT testing is done to prove the appliance is fit for purpose for a period of 12 months mot is not,

Doesn't mean it won't go faulty the day after it's tested, though. Or even that it hasn't got an intermittent fault that makes it unsafe, but which wasn't picked up the day it was tested. I can't see any difference in practical terms, I'm afraid. :-/

Quote

How refreshing that people still comment on things they dont know anything about, and continue to argue even though know they are wrong.

 :-?

Quote
the only true statment i know is : A little information is dangerous in the wrong
hands



Not sure I'd agree with that. A little information, not being afraid to ask, and a knowledge of your limits combined with a modicum of common sense are about the best tools with which to tackle life, IMHO.

Total ignorance of anything beyond one's limited field, or, on the other hand, a willingness to dabble there without understanding the possible consequences are what is dangerous.

Kevin
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: omegadan67 on 06 August 2010, 19:55:27
Quote
Quote
being 17 th edition quailified electricion and also c&g qualified to 2391-10 and 2392-10 I would just like to point out that in order to do pat testing for other people that is outside of you employment base you have to be tested to a set level to do pat testing, if you are self employed then you should be at least 2391 qualified. if you are not you could be prossecuted for breach of statory rules. if you are reported.

AND i stress if a pat tester passes an appliance which then electrocutes someone they can be charged with industrial manslaughter if found guilty of negligence.
which would not be difficult to prove if you passed the appliance and it is faulty because your name goes on the shcedule  of works attached to the distribution board.
We're talking Portable Appliances here, not fixed installs, so distribution boards and schedules of works wouldn't come into it.
[/highlight]

you still have to have a schedule of work undertaken what you have passed and what you have failed AND it is left at the premiss that you did the pat tests. Or have i been doing it wrong for the last 3 years?

The point of blame still rests with the tester/inspector? as stated in the rules and regs for such work
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: Mysteryman on 06 August 2010, 20:12:36
Quote
I don't think PAT testing is a legal requirement, you just have to show that you took steps to make sure stuff is safe.

If you are paying less than £3 per item, its not being tested properly. Crap test equipment, person who doesn't understand what they are doing, etc, etc.

Ken

Every local authority building, schools, libraries etc. must have a valid sticker on every piece of portable equipment. Last time I got someone in, it was 99p per item. Tester did 300 in one day, but he worked for a company, so he got 30p. £90 per day is no great shakes.
Title: Re: Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)testing
Post by: John Lewis on 07 August 2010, 17:22:07
Quote
Not really money for old rope, consider travelling for example from my place into Bristol centre, 53 mile round trip, to do 25 items at £1.50 per item. With the cost of £5.50 factored in for the severn bridge toll, its not a mega earner........

We just got some done, you should well be issuing a callout charge for that - everyone else seems to be round these parts! We just took them in to a spark and got it done in the end.

We got it for £1.25 per item, not too bad. It was an insurance requirement for a wedding DJ gig we're doing tomorrow. Plus he did have to inspect/repair a 30 metre cable too so it worked out good VFM given the wage packet for the gig :y