Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Dazzler on 26 April 2007, 17:56:22
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For those of you that have or have had both cars, Is the omega any more powerful than the Carlton/Senator or is it the other way around?? Which do you prefer??
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This is my own opinion, I have had a few Omegas and my father had a couple of Carltons and one senator, I prefered the Omega every time, there was a lot of power in my fathers senator but the Omega comes out on top for me, as I say, that is my opinion, dont get me wrong, the carltons/senators were good cars.
Pete
::) ::)For those of you that have or have had both cars, Is the omega any more powerful than the Carlton/Senator or is it the other way around?? Which do you prefer??
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Tunnie will be along soon he has both
I know he loves his Senator It was really nice when he drove us about in it at the cambelt Party
The Dash was like the Star Trek Enterpries
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I think Tunnie and I proved the 3.0 v6 had the edge on the 24v senny (both autos) on the A46 one day ::). both 140k mile cars.
I think the multiram makes the Omega feel slower at high revs, as the dual ram gives a 4k surge on the senny
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I can't wait till Tunnie see this post ;D
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Well!! What shall I say!
As you can see I own both...
Firstly I think the Comparison is unfair ... The Omega is a 1994 design, the Senator/Carlton is a 80's design so of course the Omega is going to be better...
Senator
Bigger, heavier than Omega, longer bonnet, the big Straight 6 up front has more space around it, compared to the V6 in Omega. (easier to work on generally)
I find the Senator more comfy than the Omega, but the Omega seats are more supportive if that makes sense! :-?
The Electrically Adjustable suspension on the Senator is fun, its a completely different car with the suspension set on Comfort, handles like a P&O Ferry. Sport and medium is good, handles as well as the Omega, unless right on the limit (i'll let MarkDTM explain further ::))
Omega
My Omega (being a facelift) rides a LOT better than the Senny, also is silent at speed. The Senator has a lot of wind noise @ 85+
Omega looks better has more toys.... from what I can tell its just as well built as the Senny. My Senator is 15 years old 140k miles, still holding together inside very well.
Body work is crap though on the Senator, very thin metal and rusts easily!
Can't really compare performance, as I cannot give a fair review. Omega is only a 2.2 Senator is 3.0 24v...
However I have driven a well maintained MV6 3.0 24v, the Omega feels slower due to the multi-ram, with the Senator at 4k rpm you get a HUGE surge.... on Comfort mode the car's bonnet goes up and bam your off!!!
But as TheBoy mentioned on a little test to 1 *cough* 3 *cough* 0 ish mph ::) - The MV6 and Senator were neck and neck, with the MV6 nudging ahead, but a very small amount!
It really was very close, and impressive from a 15 year old car that cost £300!
Ohh and the digi dash is cool on the Senator! ;)
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We have a lot to thank the carlton/Senator for, I believe these were the seeds for the Omega, again the Omega, another good car that Vauxhall decided to stop producing.
:-[ :'( Well!! What shall I say!
As you can see I own both...
Firstly I think the Comparison is unfair ... The Omega is a 1994 design, the Senator/Carlton is a 80's design so of course the Omega is going to be better...
Senator
Bigger, heavier than Omega, longer bonnet, the big Straight 6 up front has more space around it, compared to the V6 in Omega. (easier to work on generally)
I find the Senator more comfy than the Omega, but the Omega seats are more supportive if that makes sense! :-?
The Electrically Adjustable suspension on the Senator is fun, its a completely different car with the suspension set on Comfort, handles like a P&O Ferry. Sport and medium is good, handles as well as the Omega, unless right on the limit (i'll let MarkDTM explain further ::))
Omega
My Omega (being a facelift) rides a LOT better than the Senny, also is silent at speed. The Senator has a lot of wind noise @ 85+
Omega looks better has more toys.... from what I can tell its just as well built as the Senny. My Senator is 15 years old 140k miles, still holding together inside very well.
Body work is crap though on the Senator, very thin metal and rusts easily!
Can't really compare performance, as I cannot give a fair review. Omega is only a 2.2 Senator is 3.0 24v...
However I have driven a well maintained MV6 3.0 24v, the Omega feels slower due to the multi-ram, with the Senator at 4k rpm you get a HUGE surge.... on Comfort mode the car's bonnet goes up and bam your off!!!
But as TheBoy mentioned on a little test to 1 *cough* 3 *cough* 0 ish mph ::) - The MV6 and Senator were neck and neck, with the MV6 nudging ahead, but a very small amount!
It really was very close, and impressive from a 15 year old car that cost £300!
Ohh and the digi dash is cool on the Senator! ;)
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But as TheBoy mentioned on a little test to 1 *cough* 3 *cough* 0 ish mph ::) - The MV6 and Senator were neck and neck, with the MV6 nudging ahead, but a very small amount!
LOL, thats because the earlier faster run left you standing (I may have caught you unawares though). Also, the fast run on the M1 on the way back, when chav with his chavalier kept flashing you, you didn't keep up with us - though by then I think you realised your tyres weren't up to the job ;)
All joking aside, I think power wise, the engines are not too disimilar when new. The v6 delivers it better/smoother than the 24v s6. The Omega, imho, handles far better, better weight distribution, generally a decent enhancement to the chassis and its dynamics.
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But as TheBoy mentioned on a little test to 1 *cough* 3 *cough* 0 ish mph ::) - The MV6 and Senator were neck and neck, with the MV6 nudging ahead, but a very small amount!
LOL, thats because the earlier faster run left you standing (I may have caught you unawares though). Also, the fast run on the M1 on the way back, when chav with his chavalier kept flashing you, you didn't keep up with us - though by then I think you realised your tyres weren't up to the job ;)
All joking aside, I think power wise, the engines are not too disimilar when new. The v6 delivers it better/smoother than the 24v s6. The Omega, imho, handles far better, better weight distribution, generally a decent enhancement to the chassis and its dynamics.
Agreed.
On our little run up north I was not ragging it the whole time, and was not attempting to keep up at some points ;)
Its running a lot better since that run too (and so is yours)
So again, i think they are fairly evenly matched... remember the Senator is heavier and has less BHP.
But i will say the Senator feels like it has more torque.
The Omega, rides much, much better.... goes round corners better on the limit (i find)
Howver... final point. My Omega cost me 2.7k 2 years ago bargain at the time!
The Senator cost me just £300 quid, MOT 12 months, 2 new tyres, new exhaust....
For a 300 quid 'banger' (sorry Graham!) it goes very well, and blasts £20,000 cars into the weeds! And I have a riot driving it and annoying chavved up cars :)
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On the limit is obvious where the Senator struggles......its nose heavy and the chassis has more flex....
I have driven a few senators pretty hard now, including Tunnies but, none more so than the 100 quid one we used for Chezkwrecks.....that endured an 8 mile drive up the side of a mountain with the tail out on every heair pin (and Laidback66 clinging on!) plus a 'spirited' drive through the Leicestershire countryside.....
The Omega has much better balance, its more predictable and assured under cornering and when it does let go its quite controllable. When the Senator breaks away its brutal and it breaks away easier, as such you dont push as hard in order to still attain a safety margin in case you hit a bit of iffy road surface.....
Yep....Manual Omega every time for me....more cozy, quieter, much better engine....
For info Tunnie
C30SE
Torque - 270Nm at 3600rpm
Power - 150KW at 6000rpm
X30XE
Torque - 270Nm at 3400rpm
Power - 155KW at 6000rpm
So, V6 we know has a much flatter torque curve, generates peek torque slightly lower in the revs and has a little higher output....it also weighs a lot less!
Its the old 'feel' thing with the power.....the same as turbo cars.....you get a bit then the power comes on and you feel a big difference.....with a smooth power delivery, it doesn't feel as powerful...but it is and its more useful as its over a much wider rev range....
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I love the old Senator, one of my 3 favourite cars ( others being the Omega and the Saab 9000).
Had 5 of them now (6 Omegas... I think) so I kow them both rather well.
I have to agree with all Mark says. The Omega does outhandle it by quite a margin but The Senny just has "something" about it that I have never yet felt in an Omega. Probably nostalgia, but I do also love the didgital dash of the Senny! 8-)
To be honest, for the money (sub £500), I don't think there is a better car than the 24v Senator.
It took everything we threw at it on Czechwrecks (although it wasn't happy at Marks attempts at rallying up a mountain! ;D).
It also returned 30mpg (this was chipped too) and was driven VERY fast for some 2,500 miles in a week!
If/when we do this sort of thing again, another Senator would be a serious option.
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Time for the other car, I ran a Carlton for nearly 5 years before getting an Omega.
E reg Carlton, P reg Omega
Comfort Omega
Economy Carlton, 300kg
Performance Carlton Not much power difference, 300kg
Handling Carlton - could take it to limit a lot easier, 300kg
Safety Omega
Quietness Omega
Toys Omega
Brakes Omega
Light both bad
Build quality similar
FF ICE Omega
Interior Omega
It had Aircon Omega
Omegas ride better, the proper 4 cylinder Carltons go better than 4 cylinder Omegas Carltons had more anti roll.
Test corner
C - 75
O1 - can't remember
O2 - 65
O3 - never got chance
O4 - 72
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Oh my other favourites were Avengers and SUnbeams
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I love the old Senator, one of my 3 favourite cars ( others being the Omega and the Saab 9000).
Had 5 of them now (6 Omegas... I think) so I kow them both rather well.
I have to agree with all Mark says. The Omega does outhandle it by quite a margin but The Senny just has "something" about it that I have never yet felt in an Omega. Probably nostalgia, but I do also love the didgital dash of the Senny! 8-)
To be honest, for the money (sub £500), I don't think there is a better car than the 24v Senator.
It took everything we threw at it on Czechwrecks (although it wasn't happy at Marks attempts at rallying up a mountain! ;D).
It also returned 30mpg (this was chipped too) and was driven VERY fast for some 2,500 miles in a week!
If/when we do this sort of thing again, another Senator would be a serious option.
I'd consider X20XEV in a 2.0 Carlton, or maybe the turbo 2.0
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Senator
Bigger, heavier than Omega, ........
Comparing like for like as far as possible according to Mr Haynes Senator 3.0 24 v auto with A/C is 2065 kg and a 3.0 Omega is between 2095 kg & 2125 kg. That makes the crappy Omega heavier than a superior Senator.
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Oh my other favourites were Avengers and SUnbeams
Wish I could have owned either (or both) of these cars - not old enough!
Having seen, and driven, Tunnie's Senator, I can confirm that it is very comfortable and had a nice amount of "poke". The electronic suspension is also fun to play with. What with the digital dash, leather, lots of wood etc - I left feeling quite envious.
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I've said it once and I'll say it again and again and again,
With reference to the buying price of my Omega and my last Senator, the Omega is undoubtedly a better car overall, but it's not twenty four times better.
Agree with LB in that there's just something about Senators. I crave them regularly. (In fact there's a black one on Ebay at the moment that I had to make a conscious effort not to bid on!!)
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Comparing like for like as far as possible according to Mr Haynes Senator 3.0 24 v auto with A/C is 2065 kg and a 3.0 Omega is between 2095 kg & 2125 kg. That makes the crappy Omega heavier than a superior Senator.
Those have got to be max gross weights?
I have a feeling my MV6 is around 1650 kerb weight.
According to the ABS web site a 24v senator auto is 1608.
Not a great deal in it but the Senator doesn't look heavier. It's weight distribution that counts, however, and the V6 Omega has most of the engine weight set well back in the vehicle, as anyone who has tried to work on one will have the knuckles to prove.
Since the Senator is an inline 6 a significant proportion of the engine weight overhangs the front axle which is bad for handling.
Still have warm recollections of my dad's 24v Senator though.
Whilst my 3.2 MV6 is theoretically superior in most respects there's something the Senator had that's missing on the Omega. Can't put my finger on it though. Maybe just nostalgia as previously mentioned.
Kevin
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Comparing like for like as far as possible according to Mr Haynes Senator 3.0 24 v auto with A/C is 2065 kg and a 3.0 Omega is between 2095 kg & 2125 kg. That makes the crappy Omega heavier than a superior Senator.
Those have got to be max gross weights?
I have a feeling my MV6 is around 1650 kerb weight.
According to the ABS web site a 24v senator auto is 1608.
Not a great deal in it but the Senator doesn't look heavier. It's weight distribution that counts, however, and the V6 Omega has most of the engine weight set well back in the vehicle, as anyone who has tried to work on one will have the knuckles to prove.
Since the Senator is an inline 6 a significant proportion of the engine weight overhangs the front axle which is bad for handling.
Still have warm recollections of my dad's 24v Senator though.
Whilst my 3.2 MV6 is theoretically superior in most respects there's something the Senator had that's missing on the Omega. Can't put my finger on it though. Maybe just nostalgia as previously mentioned.
Kevin
Ooops! My mistake - you're correct ..... it must've been the time of day I was typing
Omega 1575-1625 Senator 1574kg
Senator is still the light weight .... in terms of weight ;)
Senator's had/have a certain exculsivity. Omegas in general are everywhere, the Senator was not a common car even when new (30 000-ish cars made)
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Senator's had/have a certain exculsivity. Omegas in general are everywhere, the Senator was not a common car even when new (30 000-ish cars made)
That may be it, I guess. I suppose there was greater differentiation in those days between the Senator and the 4 pots and estates, which were all Carltons.
Not that there's anything wrong with 4 pots or estates, of course :-[
It just meant that the Senator didn't sell in such volumes as the Omega, which looks pretty similar regardless of spec.
I also loved the sound of the straight 6. It really had a nice burble. The V6 is quiet and refined and no doubt the better engine but nowhere near as many smiles to the gallon!
Kevin
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I also loved the sound of the straight 6. It really had a nice burble. The V6 is quiet and refined and no doubt the better engine but nowhere near as many smiles to the gallon!
Kevin
I don't know about Smiles to the gallon, my Omega doesn't do the MILES to the gallon either that my Senator did, either around town or on the motorway.
V6's can sound nice though, usually when they're still breathing through a carb! :y My Dad's MkII Granada sounds great. ;)
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Senator's had/have a certain exculsivity. Omegas in general are everywhere, the Senator was not a common car even when new (30 000-ish cars made)
That may be it, I guess. I suppose there was greater differentiation in those days between the Senator and the 4 pots and estates, which were all Carltons.
Not that there's anything wrong with 4 pots or estates, of course :-[
It just meant that the Senator didn't sell in such volumes as the Omega, which looks pretty similar regardless of spec.
I also loved the sound of the straight 6. It really had a nice burble. The V6 is quiet and refined and no doubt the better engine but nowhere near as many smiles to the gallon!
Kevin
And that, I think, is part of the general demise of the Omega - apart from most people not wanting big cars now. All specs (even the Elite) looked largely the same from the outside and it is only those who know the differences that were able to tell them apart. With the Senator, other road users knew you had something big, luxurious, and powerful....
Just my opinion
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And that, I think, is part of the general demise of the Omega - apart from most people not wanting big cars now. All specs (even the Elite) looked largely the same from the outside and it is only those who know the differences that were able to tell them apart. With the Senator, other road users knew you had something big, luxurious, and powerful....
Just my opinion
Exactly! GM attemted to replace two cars, an also ran Carlton (yes! I know there were a lot of variations, from 1.8 through to GSi & Diplomat) and a luxury Senator with a one size fits all Omega (which isn't as big :( ).
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My apologies on the weight, when comparing VIN plates, i must have read the wrong numbers... i thought the Senator was heavier! :-[
I think I need to learn to control cars better on the limit, tempted to do what Omega toy has done. Get a manual senator and turn it into a track day car :)
For me, going from a Senator to an Omega. The Senator does seam to have some 'something' about it, got a nod from a guy in a GSi Carlton who passed me on the M40.
Also saw some guys in a plod marked T5 both look at me when passing.... so think a lot of people still crave them ;)
Looking forward to blasting it around Europe! :D
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Oh my other favourites were Avengers and SUnbeams
Wish I could have owned either (or both) of these cars - not old enough!
Having seen, and driven, Tunnie's Senator, I can confirm that it is very comfortable and had a nice amount of "poke". The electronic suspension is also fun to play with. What with the digital dash, leather, lots of wood etc - I left feeling quite envious.
I have driven 12v Senators, quite pokey, but the 2.5 Senator was gutless, I would say worse than a 2.0 Carlton (D E F regs). Never got to deliver a GSi3000 :( :'(. But always seemed to be driving in 1.3 Ashtrays or 2.0 Carltons, I hated the carb 1.8 Carlton and could not see the point in the 1.8 injection
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Martin, you owe it to yourself to own a 3.0 24v Senator for a while. You have such a history with your cars, this is the one you are missing.
Maybe buy Tunnie's when he returns (if it survives!?) ;)
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Martin, you owe it to yourself to own a 3.0 24v Senator for a while. You have such a history with your cars, this is the one you are missing.
Maybe buy Tunnie's when he returns (if it survives!?) ;)
There are a few cars I would like, personally always wanted a GS13000 24V, but I still like the idea of a 2.0 Carlton with a hot 2.0 like the pre Ecotec 16v.
Senators are interesting, but I don't have the money to play with cars so much now, I came out from a few years of crap work and unemployment to a job I didn't get a chance to save, then anothe low pay period - then I got saddled with mortgage & marriage after going back to proper emplyment. So due to little money in my 20s I am still playing catchup!!
I ran my Sunbeam until spares were required too much and I couldn't get to work (silly things like clutch & throttle cables took days to arrive) then I ran the Carlton till it was knackered (cills rotten and box knackered). Then with children and house move leaves me unable to afford to run a second car.
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Martin, you owe it to yourself to own a 3.0 24v Senator for a while. You have such a history with your cars, this is the one you are missing.
Maybe buy Tunnie's when he returns (if it survives!?) ;)
Yes I have the feeling it will not be in the same state when I return ::)
Thanks Mark btw for the torque figures.... I have driven TB's MV6 and the Senator does 'feel' like it has more torque, but as the figures show its all in the mind!
Martin - The 24v Senator is quite something, never driven the 2.5 Senny so can't really comment. But the 24v is as fast as a 3.0 MV6 ;)
Tempted to de-cat & chip the Senator just for the hell of it :D
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but the 2.5 Senator was gutless, ......
Same as a 2.5 Omega then!! ::)
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No actually it is completely different big heavy straight 6 of 140bhp, less than 20 more than a 2.0 Carlton and only 6 more than a 2.0 Omega.
The 2.5 Senator is the direct equivalent of the 2.0 Omega!
The 3.0 12v is less powerful than the Omega 2.6 V6, but torqueier
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All specs (even the Elite) looked largely the same from the outside
To do this when the bottom of the range is in repmobile territory and the top of the range is in MD's car territory was a huge mistake.
Would the Ford Scorpio have been a success if it was indistinguishable from a Sierra?
Kevin
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All specs (even the Elite) looked largely the same from the outside
To do this when the bottom of the range is in repmobile territory and the top of the range is in MD's car territory was a huge mistake.
Would the Ford Scorpio have been a success if it was indistinguishable from a Sierra?
Kevin
Yes as it was a hideous lump!
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Yes as it was a hideous lump!
;D
Well, bad example as usual but you know what I mean. When I said Scorpio I had in my mind's eye a picture of the earlier Granada Scorpio not the later abomination.
Kevin
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Yes as it was a hideous lump!
From the outside ... YES! but when you're sat behind the steering wheel, it's quite nice from the INside! :-/
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Yes as it was a hideous lump!
From the outside ... YES! but when you're sat behind the steering wheel, it's quite nice from the INside! :-/
Agreed, very nice inside and very comfy seats.
Cossie engine was nice too :)