Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 25 April 2007, 04:22:00
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I've just been thinking about all the cambelts I have changed so far this year on Omega's and other Vauxhalls - and the amount of near misses or problems I have seen has been HUGE!
1) A rover. K series, 1.4 16v. Sat on the drive, ticking over, I could hear a slapping noise. I investigated, it was coming from timing cover. Engine turned straight off, timing cover off. Turn engine by hand... and there was a row of several teeth missing off the belt!!
Thankfully caught it in time, and was able to change the belt with no damage done. Could have been nasty though, a few more mins and engine would have gone bang!!
2) My friend Rich's Corsa (you may remember the thread where I did a head change for him)
He let his belt go past the recommended change interval. He ended up calling me because his car stopped and wouldn't restart. When turning the crank by hand, it would only go so far. Removal of the timing belt cover, demonstrated the cambelt in 2 halves.
Removal of the head demonstrated a number of bent valves and scratched pistons! The outcome - a recon head, and a lot of work by myself to fit it!
3) Brackley Cambelt Party - Tunnie's X reg 2.2 Omega. A few days before the party, we heard tunnie's engine running, and there was an awful rumble from behind the timing belt cover. Tunnie drove it home and left it parked up. The following Saturday, when I changed the belt kit and water pump, it was clear that there was NO tension on the old belt. The tensioner was backed right off, and the belt was slapping against the inner timing cover! Thankfully we changed this one just in time - running this engine anymore would have definately gone crunch with a few bent valves.
4) ClarCE's S Reg Omega V6 timing belt - when changing this one at brackley, it was clear to see that cam number 4 was too far advanced by one whole tooth, and cams 1 and 2 were nowhere near in time. The tension on the belt was also nowhere near perfect, so the life span of that belt would have been reduced. To rectify, we rotated the cams to the correct positions, fitted new timing belt kit, timed up with the correct tool and tensioned correctly.
5) My 2.0 GLS. When I first got it, first job was to change cambelt kit and water pump, because I had no history of it being done. Now, the cambelt kit that came off the car actually looked pretty good, BUT the waterpump, would hardly turn, and had a bearing in it shot, I'm sure. If the water pump would have seized up or fallen apart, the cambelt is driven off this, and could have easily caused the timing to slip and major engine damage to result. Always, always, change the water pump, it's critical on an engine that has a pump driven by the cambelt!
6) My Project Elite. When stripping this down, it was clear that ALL four cams were too far advanced by one tooth - resulting in the engine refusing to rev past 4.5k revs. Needless to say it was rebuilt with a new belt kit and waterpump with the timing set perfectly, and as a result, now runs perfectly!
7) Bobo's cambelt, on his new T reg Elite 3.0 with 75k on the clock. Changed this timing belt kit on Sunday - It's fairly clear that the idlers/tensioner hadn't been changed in the life of the car. The condition of them was truely awful... the top idler just turned and turned.. bearings had no lube whatsoever.. but the tensioner and lower idler were even worse. They were covered in a rust like substance, and looked like they'd been sat in a puddle for 6 months! to turn them, they felt VERY rough... I personally wouldn't have fancied their chances of lasting anymore than 500/750 miles on the car before 24 bent valves became imminent!!
If you don't know the history of when your Belt, tensioner, idlers and water pump was last done, do it immediately!!!
Ps... while I'm on the subject... I am now offering an unbeatable timing belt kit changing service - feel free to PM for further info ;D ;D ;D
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I can't agree more especially after seeing the state of mine :o
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I've just been thinking about all the cambelts I have changed so far this year on Omega's and other Vauxhalls - and the amount of near misses or problems I have seen has been HUGE!
5) My 2.0 GLS. When I first got it, first job was to change cambelt kit and water pump, because I had no history of it being done. Now, the cambelt kit that came off the car actually looked pretty good, BUT the waterpump, would hardly turn, and had a bearing in it shot, I'm sure. If the water pump would have seized up or fallen apart, the cambelt is driven off this, and could have easily caused the timing to slip and major engine damage to result. Always, always, change the water pump, it's critical on an engine that has a pump driven by the cambelt!
I know what you mean. At the end of last year, I had a frantic call from my sister saying that her newly serviced car was overheating. Got the Omega out, and drove over to her, near Chichester. At that point, the car had cooled down. Upon starting it up, it was obvious that something was seriously wrong. The engine sounded like a bag of spanners.
Even at idle, the temperature gauge shot up into the red very quickly. What had happened was that the timing belt had been replaced, but the garage that my dad used only did the belt and tensioner / roller. The water pump was untouched. I suspected that the pump had failed which later proved to be the case. This meant that the whole lot had to come off again and be done properly.
So yes, I agree - always change the water pump - I would also go so far as to say even in an engine like the V6 which is not driven by the timing belt - for the cost you may as well do it whilst it is accessible. I do this on my Transit vans.
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James you did catch a couple, Tunnies and Chris's.
Even I have been thinking I might See If Mine Is Lined up correctly as ever since I had the Water Pump Changed its running alittle rough and I cant for the life of me fine out what it is, may be my timing is a tooth out might have a look this weekend just to make sure its all lined up correctly, you can never trust backstreet mechanics.
Craig
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I ought to have a look at mine really, even though it's under warranty. 47K now, and I have an entry in the log book saying cam belt and tensioners done, by the dealer I bought it from, the day before I picked it up. :-/
For a garage mechanic used to doing "simpler" cambelt changes there is a lot of potential to make a mess of a V6 cambelt change. Whereas they are used to chucking the belt on so the markings line up, tightening everything up and job done, that is just the start of the job. I suspect most never bother to turn the engine over 2 turns, check and adjust the timing as necessary and then make sure the tension is still correct.
The other problem is, as a car gets older and the value drops, the cost of having a cam belt change at garage labour rates gets significant. There are, in most cases, no obvious signs that it's about to fail so the average Joe will probably just drive around, ignoring the advice, until it breaks.
Kevin
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I would also go so far as to say even in an engine like the V6 which is not driven by the timing belt - for the cost you may as well do it whilst it is accessible. I do this on my Transit vans.
If you don't know history, then yes. Personally, I change the pump every other cambelt on v6, unless the pump feels knackered...
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3) Brackley Cambelt Party - Tunnie's X reg 2.2 Omega. The tensioner was backed right off, and the belt was slapping against the inner timing cover! Thankfully we changed this one just in time - running this engine anymore would have definately gone crunch with a few bent valves.
7) Bobo's cambelt, on his new T reg Elite 3.0 with 75k on the clock. - It's fairly clear that the idlers/tensioner hadn't been changed in the life of the car. The condition of them was truely awful...
Tunnies sounds like mine and although it isn't fully rebuilt yet, I already count myself lucky. I don't believe the tensioner/idlers were changed by Vx when the cambelt was done at 39k either, for they were in a rare state.
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Garage changed my belt and tensioners at 39k - water pump failed at 42k >:(
Nice man at the garage said "Oh yes that happens a lot, with more tension in the belt the strain on the pump increases so the WP often fails shortly after"
When asked why he didn't advice replacing it at the same time he said "I used to but nowadays everyone thinks i'm out for more money and if it aint broke don't fix it"
He now knows I'm not one of those people ;)
Q. Would misaligned belt be responsible for poor fuel economy?
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Nice man at the garage said "Oh yes that happens a lot, with more tension in the belt the strain on the pump increases so the WP often fails shortly after"
When asked why he didn't advice replacing it at the same time he said "I used to but nowadays everyone thinks i'm out for more money and if it aint broke don't fix it"
the fact that he didnt advise you at the time suggests he's just out to make more money, knowing you'd be back upon failure of pump
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Garage changed my belt and tensioners at 39k - water pump failed at 42k >:(
Nice man at the garage said "Oh yes that happens a lot, with more tension in the belt the strain on the pump increases so the WP often fails shortly after"
When asked why he didn't advice replacing it at the same time he said "I used to but nowadays everyone thinks i'm out for more money and if it aint broke don't fix it"
He now knows I'm not one of those people ;)
Q. Would misaligned belt be responsible for poor fuel economy?
If timing is actually out, it will play hell with fuel economy...
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Nice man at the garage said "Oh yes that happens a lot, with more tension in the belt the strain on the pump increases so the WP often fails shortly after"
When asked why he didn't advice replacing it at the same time he said "I used to but nowadays everyone thinks i'm out for more money and if it aint broke don't fix it"
the fact that he didnt advise you at the time suggests he's just out to make more money, knowing you'd be back upon failure of pump
He's learned his lesson. I now get advice on here, order the parts from the Internet or blag TC and hold him to his pre-agreed labour charge of £20 an hour, which isn't bad.
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That's a cracking rate!
More fun to get the gloves on a have a go yourself though ;D
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What's a good price for cambelt change? I was quoted about £360 by main Vx dealer recently. I'd just spent £600 on it so I thought maybe I'd ask my usual garage and see if it's be cheaper. They said 'We won't do it here it's too big a job. Suggest you contact your main dealer'! lol
Other question is, how often should it be changed? I don't have the sevice history in front of me atm, but I believe mine was done about 30k ago. Is it due a change?
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Yep, when you get to 30k you should be thinking about it. Official intervals are 40k (forget the oft-quoted 80k), so to be on the safe side change between 30k and 35k.
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What's a good price for cambelt change? I was quoted about £360 by main Vx dealer recently. I'd just spent £600 on it so I thought maybe I'd ask my usual garage and see if it's be cheaper. They said 'We won't do it here it's too big a job. Suggest you contact your main dealer'! lol
Other question is, how often should it be changed? I don't have the sevice history in front of me atm, but I believe mine was done about 30k ago. Is it due a change?
Dealer price range from £320-£420 depending on location etc.
An independent will probably do this for £250 parts and labour.
DIY - the cambelt kit costs around £60-£90, and since it is also recommended to change the water pump you are looking at an extra £30-£40 for pump and coolant.
(The garage prices mentioned above do not include the water pump change)
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...Official intervals are 40k...
...or 4 years... ;)
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DIY - the cambelt kit costs around £60-£90, and since it is also recommended to change the water pump you are looking at an extra £30-£40 for pump and coolant.
DIY? :o Hahaha...... no
Home improvements maybe, computers custom build yeah, but I don't have enough know-how to risk hurting my beloved Omega! lol
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DIY - the cambelt kit costs around £60-£90, and since it is also recommended to change the water pump you are looking at an extra £30-£40 for pump and coolant.
DIY? :o Hahaha...... no
Home improvements maybe, computers custom build yeah, but I don't have enough know-how to risk hurting my beloved Omega! lol
...run a search on 'cambelt party', that's one of the DIY options...
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I am sure we can sort out a cambelt change for you in the next few weeks as you are in the right part of the world. :)
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I am sure we can sort out a cambelt change for you in the next few weeks as you are in the right part of the world. :)
Can't say fairer than that. :y
I had Vx timing belt kit & full service inc, plugs, air & oil filters etc + vat for £262.55
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I had Vx timing belt kit & full service inc, plugs, air & oil filters etc + vat for £262.55
Well that's better than what Vx dealer quoted, it was something like £475 inc. full service. But after spending £600 on it the week after I bought it the credit card's still reeling! (That and the missus would kill me if I spent much more on it atm!) lol
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Sorry to hijack the thread (a bit), but I thought this was a weird one. When I put SWMBO's ZT in for cambelts, the garage took two days to do it because they had to order a tensioner (£135+vat) from rover. I enquired why they didn't have one in stock and the reply was "Because they hardly ever need changing" :o So, I looked in the haynes and it says that cambelts are 90000 or five years, tensioner 100000. Now what kind of stupidity is that?
Get your belts done (no easy job) and then wait another 10000 miles and pay them to take it all to bits again >:(
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Sounds fairly typical of Rover in the last few years. You did mean 100,000 miles not 1 million?
They do seem to wear differently on different cars. I've rebuilt Ford Zetec engines with 6 figure mileages and found the tensioners absolutely as-new. Ditto my Renault Laguna when I had the head off at 137,000.
I don't know if it's the quality of the bearings that VX use or that they have a harder life for some reason on the VX engines. Granted, I'm comparing single / twin cam 4 pots to quad cam V6's but the belt tension, temperatures, speeds, etc. must be roughly comparable.
Kevin
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Sounds fairly typical of Rover in the last few years. You did mean 100,000 miles not 1 million?
They do seem to wear differently on different cars. I've rebuilt Ford Zetec engines with 6 figure mileages and found the tensioners absolutely as-new. Ditto my Renault Laguna when I had the head off at 137,000.
I don't know if it's the quality of the bearings that VX use or that they have a harder life for some reason on the VX engines. Granted, I'm comparing single / twin cam 4 pots to quad cam V6's but the belt tension, temperatures, speeds, etc. must be roughly comparable.
Kevin
Modified :-[
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A million miles ;D Rover ;D ;D ;D
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Sounds fairly typical of Rover in the last few years. You did mean 100,000 miles not 1 million?
They do seem to wear differently on different cars. I've rebuilt Ford Zetec engines with 6 figure mileages and found the tensioners absolutely as-new. Ditto my Renault Laguna when I had the head off at 137,000.
I don't know if it's the quality of the bearings that VX use or that they have a harder life for some reason on the VX engines. Granted, I'm comparing single / twin cam 4 pots to quad cam V6's but the belt tension, temperatures, speeds, etc. must be roughly comparable.
Kevin
Modified :-[
I was scratching my head with that one :-?
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A million miles ;D Rover ;D ;D ;D
I don't know... That's only about 20 Head Gasket's worth. Should be Ok as long as you don't skim the head each time!
;)
Kevin
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A million miles ;D Rover ;D ;D ;D
Even the Enterprise would need the tensioners done by then :D
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Yep, when you get to 30k you should be thinking about it. Official intervals are 40k (forget the oft-quoted 80k), so to be on the safe side change between 30k and 35k.
...Official intervals are 40k...
...or 4 years... ;)
Checked the history earlier and it was done 30k and 3 years ago. Guess that's a job for some time this year then. :)