Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Squidy on 22 September 2010, 08:06:48
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been thinking of getting a caravan the last few weeks, were due another our 2nd kid in march and the tent's not going to be up to hols anymore! but now i've found out if im towing anything over 900kg i need a trailer test!!! its stupid!, the law says i can tow a 899kg trailer but if i put a bag of sand in it i need a licence to tow it back again!!!! i've been driving light trailers for years!
it would make more sense if you needed a licence to tow anything- but a weight restriction doesn't make sense.
my Old man's a HGV driver and i've been driving arctics around private yards since i was 11, a trailer's a trailer and needs the same skills if its 1/4 tonne or 44 tonne
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When did you pass your test?
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Sorry but that's wrong, you can tow up to a gtw of 3500kg as long as the mam of the trailer doesn't exceed the unlaiden weight of the car and the total of the car plus trailer doesn't go over 3500kg.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073
So if you have a car that is 2000 kg unlaiden and a ttrailer with a mam of 1500kg you're fine.
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been thinking of getting a caravan the last few weeks, were due another our 2nd kid in march and the tent's not going to be up to hols anymore! but now i've found out if im towing anything over 900kg i need a trailer test!!! its stupid!, the law says i can tow a 899kg trailer but if i put a bag of sand in it i need a licence to tow it back again!!!! i've been driving light trailers for years!
it would make more sense if you needed a licence to tow anything- but a weight restriction doesn't make sense.
my Old man's a HGV driver and i've been driving arctics around private yards since i was 11, a trailer's a trailer and needs the same skills if its 1/4 tonne or 44 tonne
I'm sure it's not specifically the weight of the trailer you're concerned with, it's the combined weight that you need to watch ..... but only if you passed your test after 1997. You can tow an outfit with a total weight of up to 3500 kg
Nigel/Entwood can explain better. :y
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I can sympathise with the general thrust of your comments S but I would suggest that it's a necessity.
Perhaps one of the experienced HGV drivers here will be able to tell us about mass, in motion, and the need for it to be treated with a degree of respect when piloting their vehicles on the public roads of today.
While the bag of sand may not make much of a difference, a common point must be found for legislation such as this - even if it appears to be misplaced and arbitary.
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There seems to be some confusion here, if i've read the other posts correctly!!!
If you passed your rest before jan 1st 1997 you don't need a trailer licence! Check the back of your picture driving licence!!
After this date you can tow a trailer upto 750kg's without a licence. After this weight you then need a licence, and can then tow upto the car limits.
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...... After this weight you then need a licence, and can then tow upto the car limits.
depending on the weight of the tow car & the trailer/caravan you're pulling ..... see pembsomega's link
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I'm sure it's not specifically the weight of the trailer you're concerned with, it's the combined weight that you need to watch ..... but only if you passed your test after 1997. You can tow an outfit with a total weight of up to 3500 kg
Nigel/Entwood can explain better. :y
It's the MAM of the vehicle plus the MAM of the trailer that must be under 3500 kg. Doesn't even matter if both are unladen. ::)
I can't recall what the MAM of an Omega is. Must be well over 2 tonnes to start with, so it restricts your choice of trailer straight away.
It's a stupid bit of legislation. It catches out a lot of younger glider pilots, and has the effect that they look for tow cars with a low MAM so they fit within the 3.5 tonne limit when towing a glider. Bizarrely, towing a 900kg MAM trailer with a vehicle of 900kg unladen weight is legal whilst towing it with a 2000kg unladen vehicle is not? I know which would be more stable.
In reality, of course, (which is as place alien to the desk jockeys who make legislation) the heavier the towing vehicle the safer the combination, so the MAM of the towing vehicle shouldn't have come into it.
Kevin
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Like All legislation it's all perfectly straight forward :D
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I'm sure it's not specifically the weight of the trailer you're concerned with, it's the combined weight that you need to watch ..... but only if you passed your test after 1997. You can tow an outfit with a total weight of up to 3500 kg
Nigel/Entwood can explain better. :y
It's the MAM of the vehicle plus the MAM of the trailer that must be under 3500 kg. Doesn't even matter if both are unladen. ::)
I can't recall what the MAM of an Omega is. Must be well over 2 tonnes to start with, so it restricts your choice of trailer straight away.
It's a stupid bit of legislation. It catches out a lot of younger glider pilots, and has the effect that they look for tow cars with a low MAM so they fit within the 3.5 tonne limit when towing a glider. Bizarrely, towing a 900kg MAM trailer with a vehicle of 900kg unladen weight is legal whilst towing it with a 2000kg unladen vehicle is not? I know which would be more stable.
In reality, of course, (which is as place alien to the desk jockeys who make legislation) the heavier the towing vehicle the safer the combination, so the MAM of the towing vehicle shouldn't have come into it.
Kevin
Kevin
Presumably that makes it more easy to control. The other side of the coin is how much damage gets done if you DO lose control?
Only trying to find some rationale.
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Sadly not all people have the same driving ability. One of my mates supervises on the Motorway maintaince on the accident recovery side. I hear about a lot of accidents includibg spillages, rolled HGV's, crazy motorbike accidents, suicide jumpers, head on collisions and carvan carnage.
Despite knowing your own drving ability you are not the only one on the road, and yes you might sit on the M1 towing a van at 80mph and be 100% stable and come on here and comment about it, but it only tales 1 car to move in front of you for you to take normal avoidance forgetting there is a van attached to you and it could be catnage.
Accidents are caused for many many reasons, and there is allways something at fault. Sadly carvans make a fair percentage of this, and for that reason I agree with any rules/laws they impose.
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forgetting there is a van attached to you and it could be catnage.
as easily as my Omega tows my caravan at sensible speeds I can say I've never forgotten I've a caravan on the back. :y :y :y
Accidents are caused for many many reasons, and there is allways something at fault. Sadly carvans make a fair percentage of this, and for that reason I agree with any rules/laws they impose.
Only if there's some proper thought process used when they implement them. As Kevin says, how can you be safer towing weight for weight at 1749kg each, compared to towing a 751kg trailer with a 3 tonne car?
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If you do decide to go along the trailer test route and as has been said, you have to watch your total weight, it is essentially based around the Cat C&E lorry test...
Reverse + Hitch
Reverse in a S pattern to a loading bay (with 1 allowable Shunt)
then drive around your local test centre town for an hour or so, abiding by road laws...
Oh the trailer concerned has to be iirc 750kg box trailer, your car has to be fully road worthy, showing no warning lights (including airbag light)....
I agree, it is in some aspects a stupid test, but, as your vehicle gets heavier, the handling characteristics are altered (I knew someone who had their Omega written off when the brakes failed on a trailer, lifted the back end of the car and pushed them into the back of another car)...
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forgetting there is a van attached to you and it could be catnage.
as easily as my Omega tows my caravan at sensible speeds I can say I've never forgotten I've a caravan on the back. :y :y :y
Accidents are caused for many many reasons, and there is allways something at fault. Sadly carvans make a fair percentage of this, and for that reason I agree with any rules/laws they impose.
Only if there's some proper thought process used when they implement them. As Kevin says, how can you be safer towing weight for weight at 1749kg each, compared to towing a 751kg trailer with a 3 tonne car?
remembering that 1749kg is the cars unladen weight, and the 3500kg limit is the gross laden weight...
15 Stone person is approxiamtely 100kg...
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remembering that 1749kg is the cars unladen weight, and the 3500kg limit is the gross laden weight...
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but you get the gist of what I mean though .......
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remembering that 1749kg is the cars unladen weight, and the 3500kg limit is the gross laden weight...
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but you get the gist of what I mean though .......
Indeed I do...
I found out I needed a trailer licence after I had spent a summer trawling Agricultural bits and pieces all over the country, carrying a large trailer with things like Combine wheels and stuff on them, certainly well over the 3500kg MAM that I should have been limted too... At that time, even my boss hadn't realised there was a trailer license that I need either...
Still haven't done the test, but, I don't pull the trailer anymore...
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Well Andy has asked me to comment so here goes ... and it is actually quite simple.
Category B licence : (anyone who has passed their test since 1 January 1997 and not taken the additional +E part) :
a) Combined authorised mass must not exceed 3500 Kgs; Trailer authorised mass must not exceed towing vehicle unladen weight.
b) The combined authorised mass of 3500 kgs CAN be exceeded IF the trailer MAM is less than 750 Kgs, where the combined mass can be up to 4250Kgs - this will never apply to an Omega .. but might to a Ford Transit ... :)
Category B + E .. those of us with "grandfather rights" ie .. passed the test before 1 Jan 1997, or those who have taken part E and passed:
Any vehicle up to 3500 kgs MAM towing a trailer such that the combined MAM of the towing vehicle AND the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the maximum permitted train weight for the towing vehicle. There is no ratio limit on trailer or towing vehicle... (the caravan club 85% is a GUIDE not a legal requirement)
NOTE : towing with a "medium size vehicle" .. ie a vehicle with a MAM greater than 3500 kgs - eg some Ford Transits etc - needs a C1 + E license .. the 3500 kgs for a B +E is non-negotiable ... I know several folks who have come unstuck .. :)
Also .. all these are "plated" figures .. not actual weights.. ie MAM = Maximum AUTHORISED Mass .... not what you actually weigh at any time.
HTH
I'll take a picyure of my VIN plate and post up examples shortly..... if it helps .. :)
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Would imagine a car with all the holiday gear and 4 8/10 stone adults and a full tank of juice, couple of crates of lager plus the batbie, and the van on the back with some bits and pieces on soon starts toting the weight limit up.
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Would imagine a car with all the holiday gear and 4 8/10 stone adults and a full tank of juice, couple of crates of lager plus the batbie, and the van on the back with some bits and pieces on soon starts toting the weight limit up.
What it actually weighs is unimportant initially ... it is what it is ALLOWED to weigh tht effects if you are legal to tow it.
If you exceed what it is ALLOWED to weigh, then your licence matters not, you are "done" for "unsafe loading"
2 seperate problems/laws/circumstances... :)
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Reverse + Hitch
Reverse in a S pattern to a loading bay (with 1 allowable Shunt)
then drive around your local test centre town for an hour or so, abiding by road laws...
I agree, it is in some aspects a stupid test, but, as your vehicle gets heavier, the handling characteristics are altered (I knew someone who had their Omega written off when the brakes failed on a trailer, lifted the back end of the car and pushed them into the back of another car)...
.. and that test won't teach you much about the handling characteristics. ;)
At the end of the day, towing, like most things, requires a little common sense. The towing speed limit is there for a reason, and a very real reason in comparison to the speed limit for a car alone IMHO.
It might not be significantly more "unsafe" to ignore the limit and drive a car at 80 or 90 MPH but anyone towing at 80 MPH needs a serious talking to.
Stopping distances are also important. Trailer brakes do fail. Towing combinations are not as stable as a car when braking hard and / or from high speed so much longer distances need to be left ahead of a towing combination to avoid the need fro heavy braking.
I don't really see how ticking a box and taking a little jaunt with an instructor and trailer on the back will make much difference, TBH.
Kevin
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Well Andy has asked me to comment so here goes ... and it is actually quite simple.
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I must be simple then ...... ::) ;D
how about using kerb weight and gross train weights ..... I might then understand :-/. I'm glad I passed my test as the world was just turning to colour ;D ;D ;D
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Okies .. a couple of little examples, using the VIN plate from a 2001 Elite Saloon .. YOUR CAR MAY BE DIFFERENT SO CHECK FIRST ..
These are my personal views as I see the limits...it is YOUR responsibility to check that you are legal.:)
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/402/imag0029k.jpg)
Top line is the Maximum Authorised Mass for the Car .. in this case 2200 Kg
Second line is the Maximum Authorised Train Weight .... 4075 Kgs the maximum it + trailer can weigh.
Next two lines are maximum axle weights and although important play no part in this bit.
From the manual the unladen weight of my car is 1744 Kg
So .. Category B licence holder :
May tow up to a TOTAL TRAIN weight of 3500 kgs, and the car has a MAM of 2200 kgs
3500 Kgs - 2200 Kgs = 1300 kgs
So it is legal for a Cat B holder to tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 1300 kgs .. note that is MAM .. not the weight ON the trailer .. it is the plated limit of the trailer.
This is because .. 3500 kgs has not been exceeded, the trailer 1300kgs is less than the unladen weight of the car.
Category B + E
The maximum authorised train weight is 4075, the maximum authorised car weight is 2200 so
4075 - 2200 = 1875
1875 kgs is the MAM of a trailer that I as a B+E holder can pull, again .. not on the trailer, but plated for the trailer.
Now, my caravan plate has a MTPLW (Maximum Total Permitted Laden Weight) which is the same as MAM of 1650 Kgs so I can legally tow quite happily..... on my B+E licence.
There endeth the lesson ... :)
HTH
:)
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Thanks for doing this. If I end up towing the mr2 at a later date I will be right on the limit. So, it would probably be better to take the extra test. :y
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Thanks Entwood, for posting that info. Makes explaining it to people much easier!! CAn now show the mthis post
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Okies .. a couple of little examples, using the VIN plate from a 2001 Elite Saloon .. YOUR CAR MAY BE DIFFERENT SO CHECK FIRST ..
These are my personal views as I see the limits...it is YOUR responsibility to check that you are legal.:)
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/402/imag0029k.jpg
There endeth the lesson ... :)
HTH
:)
A splendidly practical explanation. 8-) :y :y
More tea vicar? ;D :y
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All caravans should be burned & then this problem would instantly disappear :P ;D
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i passed my test in 2001 so i do have to take the trailer test
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I cannot reverse a small trailer - yet I can a caravan
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i passed my test in 2001 so i do have to take the trailer test
read Entwood's post. it depends how big your car is and the size of the trailer you want to tow.
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I cannot reverse a small trailer - yet I can a caravan
Problem is that you can't actually see the trailer as it pivots. A couple of sticks attached to the rear corners can help :y
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I cannot reverse a small trailer - yet I can a caravan
The smaller the trailer, the harder to reverse as it "moves" much faster. An articulated flatbed is easier to reverse than a 10 ft caravan !! Far more control
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nicely put Entwood.
I'm currently in a position to specify the licence needed for around 320,000 drivers - this is the "number one" topic for us.
the "new" requirements are an EU Directive. surprised ?
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thanks Entwood, makes alot of sence now, cheers
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The smaller the trailer, the harder to reverse as it "moves" much faster. An articulated flatbed is easier to reverse than a 10 ft caravan !! Far more control
Agreed; the worst combination for reversing that I`ve ever driven is a SWB 'Series' Landy with a narrow-track Sankey trailer......I`m (usually) rather proud of my trailer-reversing skills, but my old Landy/Sankey is a real 'pain in the proverbials' to go back`ards in! ;D
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The smaller the trailer, the harder to reverse as it "moves" much faster. An articulated flatbed is easier to reverse than a 10 ft caravan !! Far more control
Agreed; the worst combination for reversing that I`ve ever driven is a SWB 'Series' Landy with a narrow-track Sankey trailer......I`m (usually) rather proud of my trailer-reversing skills, but my old Landy/Sankey is a real 'pain in the proverbials' to go back`ards in! ;D
reversing my caravan with my old grand cherokee was hard as there was not enough steering lock,mig is much better :y
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I've always found it easier with the 'little' trailer to cheat and take it off rather than trying to reverse it as it just can't been seen until its gone too far!!!!!!
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I've always found it easier with the 'little' trailer to cheat and take it off rather than trying to reverse it as it just can't been seen until its gone too far!!!!!!
That is what I did when I last towed one.
If for any reason I had to take a towing test, I would bring my own trailer.
So what if it has a fridge/toilet/shower ect ect in it.
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Reverse + Hitch
Reverse in a S pattern to a loading bay (with 1 allowable Shunt)
then drive around your local test centre town for an hour or so, abiding by road laws...
I agree, it is in some aspects a stupid test, but, as your vehicle gets heavier, the handling characteristics are altered (I knew someone who had their Omega written off when the brakes failed on a trailer, lifted the back end of the car and pushed them into the back of another car)...
.. and that test won't teach you much about the handling characteristics. ;)
At the end of the day, towing, like most things, requires a little common sense. The towing speed limit is there for a reason, and a very real reason in comparison to the speed limit for a car alone IMHO.
It might not be significantly more "unsafe" to ignore the limit and drive a car at 80 or 90 MPH but anyone towing at 80 MPH needs a serious talking to.
Stopping distances are also important. Trailer brakes do fail. Towing combinations are not as stable as a car when braking hard and / or from high speed so much longer distances need to be left ahead of a towing combination to avoid the need fro heavy braking.
I don't really see how ticking a box and taking a little jaunt with an instructor and trailer on the back will make much difference, TBH.
Kevin
Me neither. It is just money for the coffers so far as I can see...
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As an hgv petrol tanker driver , as i believe ,please dont quote me but ,the law changed recently so all new drivers must take a practical driving test if they wish to tow a trailer(i have seen these "trailer" driving schools about).If you passed your car test before a certain date (sorry not sure exactly but it is recently)you can tow a trailer or caravan on what is known commonly as "grandads" rights.If you do tow on a car licence you are only covered up to the maximum gross vehicle towing weight eg a 1200 kg car can only tow up to its max combined towing weight which varies as to whether the trailed combination has brakes or not.
if you drive a land rover with a "braked" trailer this can be in the region 3 and a half tons upwards,BUT if its weight exceeds over 3.5 tons then you MUST have a tachograph fitted !! It sounds complicated but if you want real complications, try taking your ADR hazard chemical licence then take 3 weeks training to qualify as a petrol tanker driver...my brain hurts :'( :o
the best way is to check is to ask somebody like VOSA they know the law inside out ,hope this helps .I just thank god im one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to worry about towing a c/van,im a class one hgv driver with a full bike licence too :y
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Fletch .. the law changed in 1997 (not really "recent") and is laid down in my post #16
A quick guide is in my post #21 using an Omega as an example. The weight limit for a class B only is 3500 kgs gross train weight. Full stop.
The only requirement for a tacho is if you are being PAID to tow.
If the towing vehicle has a MAM of over 3500 kgs you need a C1+1 .. not a tacho to drive it .. :)
:)
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As an hgv petrol tanker driver , as i believe ,please dont quote me but ,the law changed recently so all new drivers must take a practical driving test if they wish to tow a trailer(i have seen these "trailer" driving schools about).If you passed your car test before a certain date (sorry not sure exactly but it is recently)you can tow a trailer or caravan on what is known commonly as "grandads" rights.If you do tow on a car licence you are only covered up to the maximum gross vehicle towing weight eg a 1200 kg car can only tow up to its max combined towing weight which varies as to whether the trailed combination has brakes or not.
if you drive a land rover with a "braked" trailer this can be in the region 3 and a half tons upwards,BUT if its weight exceeds over 3.5 tons then you MUST have a tachograph fitted !! It sounds complicated but if you want real complications, try taking your ADR hazard chemical licence then take 3 weeks training to qualify as a petrol tanker driver...my brain hurts :'( :o
the best way is to check is to ask somebody like VOSA they know the law inside out ,hope this helps .I just thank god im one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to worry about towing a c/van,im a class one hgv driver with a full bike licence too :y
Pedantic mode ON :
There is no such thing anymore ... you hold a C + E licence, (Large Goods Vehicle with trailer) (vehicle over 3500 Kgs with a trailer over 750 Kgs)(up to the towing vehicle Maximum Authorised Train Weight)
and you also have additional qualifications, Tanker, ADR and probably HIAB which are nothing to do with your "licence" as isued by DVLA
Pedantic mode OFF :
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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As an hgv petrol tanker driver , as i believe ,please dont quote me but ,the law changed recently so all new drivers must take a practical driving test if they wish to tow a trailer(i have seen these "trailer" driving schools about).If you passed your car test before a certain date (sorry not sure exactly but it is recently)you can tow a trailer or caravan on what is known commonly as "grandads" rights.If you do tow on a car licence you are only covered up to the maximum gross vehicle towing weight eg a 1200 kg car can only tow up to its max combined towing weight which varies as to whether the trailed combination has brakes or not.
if you drive a land rover with a "braked" trailer this can be in the region 3 and a half tons upwards,BUT if its weight exceeds over 3.5 tons then you MUST have a tachograph fitted !! It sounds complicated but if you want real complications, try taking your ADR hazard chemical licence then take 3 weeks training to qualify as a petrol tanker driver...my brain hurts :'( :o
the best way is to check is to ask somebody like VOSA they know the law inside out ,hope this helps .I just thank god im one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to worry about towing a c/van,im a class one hgv driver with a full bike licence too :y
Pedantic mode ON :
There is no such thing anymore ... you hold a C + E licence, (Large Goods Vehicle with trailer) (vehicle over 3500 Kgs with a trailer over 750 Kgs)(up to the towing vehicle Maximum Authorised Train Weight)
and you also have additional qualifications, Tanker, ADR and probably HIAB which are nothing to do with your "licence" as isued by DVLA
Pedantic mode OFF :
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
sorry but you are quite right , it is a c + e licence now .
BUT you are wrong about the ADR , it IS issued by the dvla , i took and passed mine in may this year and it was issued by the dvla.Also you are wrong about the 3.5 ton rule.If your vehicle weighs more than 3.5 you Must have a tacho fitted , it has nothing to with hire or reward , it can be for private use . It is because of drivers hours rules.Also limos that weigh that weigh over 3.5 whether being used privately or hire / reward must have a tacho fitted , i an friends with a local limo owner.
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As an hgv petrol tanker driver , as i believe ,please dont quote me but ,the law changed recently so all new drivers must take a practical driving test if they wish to tow a trailer(i have seen these "trailer" driving schools about).If you passed your car test before a certain date (sorry not sure exactly but it is recently)you can tow a trailer or caravan on what is known commonly as "grandads" rights.If you do tow on a car licence you are only covered up to the maximum gross vehicle towing weight eg a 1200 kg car can only tow up to its max combined towing weight which varies as to whether the trailed combination has brakes or not.
if you drive a land rover with a "braked" trailer this can be in the region 3 and a half tons upwards,BUT if its weight exceeds over 3.5 tons then you MUST have a tachograph fitted !! It sounds complicated but if you want real complications, try taking your ADR hazard chemical licence then take 3 weeks training to qualify as a petrol tanker driver...my brain hurts :'( :o
the best way is to check is to ask somebody like VOSA they know the law inside out ,hope this helps .I just thank god im one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to worry about towing a c/van,im a class one hgv driver with a full bike licence too :y
Pedantic mode ON :
There is no such thing anymore ... you hold a C + E licence, (Large Goods Vehicle with trailer) (vehicle over 3500 Kgs with a trailer over 750 Kgs)(up to the towing vehicle Maximum Authorised Train Weight)
and you also have additional qualifications, Tanker, ADR and probably HIAB which are nothing to do with your "licence" as isued by DVLA
Pedantic mode OFF :
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
sorry but you are quite right , it is a c + e licence now .
BUT you are wrong about the ADR , it IS issued by the dvla , i took and passed mine in may this year and it was issued by the dvla.Also you are wrong about the 3.5 ton rule.If your vehicle weighs more than 3.5 you Must have a tacho fitted , it has nothing to with hire or reward , it can be for private use . It is because of drivers hours rules.Also limos that weigh that weigh over 3.5 whether being used privately or hire / reward must have a tacho fitted , i an friends with a local limo owner.
Sorry .. but incorrect.....
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf
Section 1, page 12 .......... Additionally drivers who never carry goods or passengers in the course of their employment are not considered to be within scope of the regulations ......
Section 3, Page 27 The following groups are exempt from the domestic drivers’ hours rules:
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drivers of vehicles used by the Armed Forces, the police and fire brigade;
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drivers who always drive off the public road system; and
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private driving, i.e. not in connection with a job or in any way to earn a living.
(my highlight)
I accept that IF a vehicle is not registered as "private", and it can EVER be used for commercial purposes, it will have a tacho fitted.... but a "private" taxed vehicle does not require one.