Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: ClarCE on 30 April 2007, 14:13:14
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If I was going to be naughty, and bearing in mind I am a complete new person to all this, how does this kit car manufacturer look?
It seems very cheap - its not the ones who've gone bust is it?!
I was looking at the middle one, the 2B: here (http://www.greatbritishsportscars.com/kitrange.php)
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My Ex's dad built one of those Chris - with a 2 litre sierra engine. Their not a bad kit, but from memory you have to go and collect (box van required with help to lift the chassis). Lots of softening of edges and little adjustmetns to be made to the sheet steel as its just laser cut, you have to fabricate all the bends etc for it - oh and the instruction videos they supply are pretty useless.
His kit car lives on the Moors estate in Thatcham.
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My Ex's dad built one of those Chris - with a 2 litre sierra engine. Their not a bad kit, but from memory you have to go and collect (box van required with help to lift the chassis). Lots of softening of edges and little adjustmetns to be made to the sheet steel as its just laser cut, you have to fabricate all the bends etc for it - oh and the instruction videos they supply are pretty useless.
His kit car lives on the Moors estate in Thatcham.
Cheers for that, what a stroke of luck that someone on here has actually seen this!
I might take a drive over that way then and have a snoop about..
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I think you get what you pay for in general. The more expensive kits come pretty well finished meaning you don't have to do that much work to tidy up from the manufacturing process, you just have to bolt it together into a car.
Cheaper kits that I have seen don't come as well finished or as accurately made, so you might find yourself tidying up edges and even trimming areas where the panels don't fit.
You also need to think about what you want at the end and what type of build you want to embark upon.
Some kits are based on a single donor car, the idea being to break a car and use as many parts from that car as possible. The RH is one of them. This seems like a good idea at first until you consider the engine you'll end up with. You can do a lot better than a Pinto or CVH these days, but this will be the choice you have if you base it on a sierra. Other parts from the single donor won't be ideal, but the kit will have been compromised to use them. Of course you can use parts from other cars, but as you deviate from the single donor costs and time will be added.
Consider also if you'll want to refurbish every part from a donor and use it. To do so saves money but will take much more time. If you see yourself buying refurbished parts and otherwise deviating from the single donor path, you may as well throw away all the compromises that this involves and build something that draws on the best parts from several donors.
Consider also the use it will get. Do you want something to polish and display on concours? Something to use mainly on the road as something "a bit different" to drive on sunny days? Or, do you want a track day weapon?
If I were doing it again?
For a track day car I'd probably go for a bike engined seven style car or a powerful tuned 4 pot (Ford Duratec / VX C20XE / 1.6 Ecotec). I'd maybe venture towards an Audi 1.8T.
For a road car I'd seriously consider Westfield's single donor kit based on an MX-5 (Donor car with a more lively engine, lightweight parts throughout and fun to drive in the first place). Either that or I'd use a Ford Sigma engine (little Zetec from the Fiesta / Puma, seriously light and loves to rev). Or I might consider trying to shoehorn an X32SE into one for a bit more of a cruiser ;-)
For a polisher I'd go for something with a bit more bodywork to it than a Lotus 7 style car. Maybe a Cobra or Healey 3000 replica. It'd rude not to have a V8 in a Cobra.
For a money no object all rounder have a google for the Ultima... I was speaking to someone at Le Mans who's not allowed to go to Belgium any more thanks to one of these. He did try (and succeed) to run for the border after getting clocked a little over the limit (205 MPH).
The main thing is to see the cars in the flesh and decide what you think. Look at a RH against a Caterham and you'll see where the compromises have been made. It's not a slim, svelte little car, it's got a bit more lardy to accommodate the Sierra running gear underneath unmodified, whereas the Caterham uses mostly bespoke suspension parts. There are other manufacturers who are at various points between these two extremes.
Most manufacturers will give to a factory tour, talk about their kits and give you a test drive in a demonstrator. Westfield will happily throw you the keys to a demonstrator and let you play for half an hour or so. Others prefer to take you out and scare you.
It's a shame you're not around at the weekend because at a kit car show you will find so many shapes and sizes of car it'll really open your mind.
Cheers,
Kevin
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If I was going to be naughty, and bearing in mind I am a complete new person to all this, how does this kit car manufacturer look?
It seems very cheap - its not the ones who've gone bust is it?!
I was looking at the middle one, the 2B: here (http://www.greatbritishsportscars.com/kitrange.php)
A kit car can be as good as the person that builds it. You can always also use your judgement in order to decide if bits need upgrading or not. I would not really bother with a kit car that has live axle.
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A few more ideas:
http://www.tigerracing.com/
http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/
http://www.daxcars.com/
http://www.stuart-taylor.co.uk/
http://www.sylva.co.uk/
http://www.gtmcars.com
Kevin
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I'd maybe venture towards an Audi 1.8T.
So 350-400hp would be enough? :-? ;D
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So 350-400hp would be enough?
Can you ever have enough? ;)
If I were going for more power I think a turbo would probably be the way to go.
A mate of mine built a Dax Rush with a Cossie turbo in it. In theory it had 270 BHP but that's from a Cosworth chip vendor so take it with a pinch of salt. It was running about 1 bar of boost IIRC. You could boot it out of a corner in 5th and just wait for the turbo to suck you up the straight to the next corner or you could drop it into 2nd, thrash it to 7k in each gear and embarass the bikes. ;-) Either way it loved it.
It did 35 MPG on a run and was absolutely bullet proof.
I think my Zetec is OK for the moment though.
Kevin
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If I were going for more power I think a turbo would probably be the way to go.
Uh, yep!
A mate of mine built a Dax Rush with a Cossie turbo in it. In theory it had 270 BHP but that's from a Cosworth chip vendor so take it with a pinch of salt. It was running about 1 bar of boost IIRC.
That's not bad, especially in such a small car. But referring to the statement about too much power, life doesn't start until about 1.8bar (yes, on top of atmospheric). ;)
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life doesn't start until about 1.8bar
Boost's not everything though. The more boost you NEED the more heat you're going to have to get rid of, the more lag you've got, etc. I would still pay attention to porting the head nicely and ensuring the induction system works well.
I know a guy with a Cossie Westfield. He bought it running 300+ BHP at 2 bar or so IIRC. Had been tuned by just turning up the boost and chipping. It felt very quick but the power all came in with a bang at about 3,000 rpm with loads of overboost. A tuning package designed to appeal to the MAX Power brigade.
He ported the head, fabricated a better inlet plenum, fitted a smaller Turbo, a decent charge cooler, put a proper mappable ECU with boost control on it and mapped it on a rolling road. It now makes more power than it did before at just over 1 BAR and because it doesn't have to wind itself up to silly bost levels, it's much more responsive and doesn't bite (important in a Westfield!).
Kevin
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Thanks very much for all the replies, Kevin - I do quite like the look of the Westfield, based on MX-5 doner car conversion, it seems very good and not overpriced either..
I've read through the websites of those links you sent, lots of invaluable info there, so cheers for that too! Will help me make a much more informed decision.
At the moment, I'm not set against doing the Pinto / Sierra - RH - It'll come down I expect to budget, my time (you know what she's like - I upped the anti last night by telling her it would be happening sooner rather than later, i.e. not in 6 years time as she was hoping!!!!)
In answer to your other question, it would be a fun car, and a sunny day fun car at that - it would never be used as a daily grind..
I also don't want to run before I can walk by taking on something I'm going to get stuck on and unable to complete on my own with my limited experience. I am also not going to be going for F1 performance, i.e turbos etc, etc - I think a standard 2.0L should do me fine tbh..
I know that with Fords I know roughly where I am, after the days of my XR3i's and XR2's (yeah, I know :P) but thats about the only thing that could sway me from a jap engined MX..
It is a difficult one!!
Cheers,
Chris.
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If it's between the RH and the Westfield MX-5 SDV I'd go for the Westfield every day. I'm trying not to be biased here but if the prices are in the same ball park I think you'll find that the difference in quality is quite marked. Quality of the kit has a big influence on ease of build too.
However, I'll have a snoop at the RH stand this weekend and see what they're like.
You need to blag a test drive in the MX-5 based kit! Then you'll really be hooked.
Oh, and I know what you're saying regarding Ford stuff. TBH, though, Emma has had an MX-5 for 4 or 5 years & 80,000 miles and I do the servicing on it. I wouldn't know how easy it is to work on because nothing has ever caused trouble. I change the oil & filter, the air filter, the coolant and the plugs and nothing else has ever needed touching.
Kevin
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The engine which appeals to me in a Westfield is the V8
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I contemplated building one about 8 years ago - but finances were against me. I had researched and found out I could use the Sunbeam as a donor.
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The engine which appeals to me in a Westfield is the V8
They're very popular at the moment. I'm not 100% sure. They sound tremendous but they're also fairly heavy (although the Rover V8 isn't much worse than something like a Pinto), and I think that takes the edge off the handling. They also need to be driven carefully, in comparison to a 4 pot with similar power, because there's enough torque to spin the back wheels from idle in most of the gears.
They're also lazy engines that don't really like revs, and I'm not sure that suits a little sports car.
I must admit, whilst I've not got the tape measure out yet, I've been idly wondering if a GM V6 will fit in there. That might be a good compromise between the two. Anyone know what an X30XE weighs?
Kevin
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life doesn't start until about 1.8bar
Boost's not everything though. The more boost you NEED the more heat you're going to have to get rid of, the more lag you've got, etc. I would still pay attention to porting the head nicely and ensuring the induction system works well.
I know a guy with a Cossie Westfield. He bought it running 300+ BHP at 2 bar or so IIRC. Had been tuned by just turning up the boost and chipping. It felt very quick but the power all came in with a bang at about 3,000 rpm with loads of overboost. A tuning package designed to appeal to the MAX Power brigade.
Yeah, that's what most people do. However, as you said that isn't the only way to do it. You can get 350 out of a 1.8T without the 'bang', more than that and it is hard to make it smooth.
The 5V head on the 1.8T doesn't need any work.
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The 5V head on the 1.8T doesn't need any work.
That's true enough. There's hardly any metal on it to remove!
Last time I visited my local engine machining place they were trying to re-valve a 5v head. Should have heard the language!
Kevin
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The 5V head on the 1.8T doesn't need any work.
That's true enough. There's hardly any metal on it to remove!
Last time I visited my local engine machining place they were trying to re-valve a 5v head. Should have heard the language!
Kevin
Well I've spent the entire - not busy - day at work reading about 6 different project diarys of RH 2B builds, unfortunately they've all gone for the mega low cost £1600 option, rather than the 3k which comes with all panels folded / bent and a shed load of other bits that you won't have to strip of a sierra..
Tomorrow I think I'll try and find some westfield ones..
Still very undecided, other than the more I think and read about it, the more its something I think I want and could do..
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The biggest problem with the westfiled is the lack of development in recent years......its quite a bit behind the times.....the Dax however is a different story....
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The biggest problem with the westfiled is the lack of development in recent years
This is true. They seem to have focused on competing at the lower end of the market with SDV kits, the 11 (which is lovely) and so on.
Unless you count the XTR, of course. :-*
The company has just changed hands too, so I can imagine that Chris Smith's heart may not have been in it fully of late. We shall see if that brings fresh ideas or beancounters...
Dax however is a different story....
Yes, they seem to have been busy. My only experience of them was a '99 Rush which I helped build so a lot of water under the bridge since then. At that time the kit was not as well developed as the Westfield, more fiddling about to do to get things to fit, but the end result was awesome. They're huge cars though, as we discovered at 6 o'clock on the morning of the SVA whilst trying to get it on a trailer! Not as nimble as a Westfield but they do suit a big engine better and they seem to be able to put huge amounts of power down, partly because they seem happier with hoofing great rear tyres.
The Tojeiro is nice too. I've got a friend with one of those. Rover 3.5 V8 with just a holley carb and a slightly warm cam. Don't know why but it is the best sounding V8 I've ever heard. A ride through the Dartford tunnel in it a few years ago was nearly too much to bear.
I won't even mention the Jag V12 one I saw running 6 downdraught Webers... ;D
Another stand on the list to have a look at this weekend....
This thread is bad. I'm going to end up starting another kit car build at this rate!
Kevin
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This thread is bad. I'm going to end up starting another kit car build at this rate!
Kevin
Yeah, I know what you mean. I have always wanted to build a kit car, however every time I look into it the prices kill the idea. I know why the prices are what they are, but when you think about how much you could do if you spent the same amount of money on a used car and doing it up it . . .
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My long term plan is a Dax Rush utilising the 3.5 injection Rover V8 that is sat in my garage with Hurricane cams and megasquirt.....plus a Toyota Supra gearbox.....
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You could always go the DIY route :y :y :y
www.lumby.freeserve.co.uk
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My long term plan is a Dax Rush utilising the 3.5 injection Rover V8 that is sat in my garage with Hurricane cams and megasquirt.....plus a Toyota Supra gearbox.....
Very nice too. If you ever want to bounce Megasquirt questions off someone just drop me a PM. I've been running one since the early days, including a load of beta testing work.
Kevin
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My long term plan is a Dax Rush utilising the 3.5 injection Rover V8 that is sat in my garage with Hurricane cams and megasquirt.....plus a Toyota Supra gearbox.....
Very nice too. If you ever want to bounce Megasquirt questions off someone just drop me a PM. I've been running one since the early days, including a load of beta testing work.
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
This bugs getting quite serious now...
This show... Do I need tickets? Its on Sunday and Monday? Can I just turn up on Sunday with the Mrs in tow?
Cheers,
Chris.
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http://www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_1357.php
Free to me :P 8 quid to you in advance or 10 quid at the gate ;)
Give me a shout if you do come along 07977037443.
Cheers,
Kevin
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http://www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_1357.php
Free to me :P 8 quid to you in advance or 10 quid at the gate ;)
Give me a shout if you do come along 07977037443.
Cheers,
Kevin
Excellent, thanks for that :)
I've managed to get out of the boat building, all thats required are my paddling skills :y
So I'll definitely see you there on Sunday, the Mrs is coming too - she spent the night looking at kit cars online......
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Just thought i would add my two penneth worth. Depending on budget one of my friends dad's built a "7" based on the sierra running gear but fitted a red top XE vauxhall engine, the conversion kit's are available (check out classic ford magazine) to mate this engine to fords type 9 box. I can't for the life of me remember the kit manafcturer but always remember him saying he had the relative cheapness of the ford parts bin with the instant power from the XE engine which in standard form produces nearly as much power as a much modified pinto, all i know is it went like s@#t of a chromium plated shovel and didnt cost the earth to build. Hope this may be of some help, a little bit of vauxhall in there would be good :y I will try and find out what kit he used if you are interested, but he now lives in the states so could take a few days to contact. Cheers, Jez
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Just thought i would add my two penneth worth. Depending on budget one of my friends dad's built a "7" based on the sierra running gear but fitted a red top XE vauxhall engine, the conversion kit's are available (check out classic ford magazine) to mate this engine to fords type 9 box. I can't for the life of me remember the kit manafcturer but always remember him saying he had the relative cheapness of the ford parts bin with the instant power from the XE engine which in standard form produces nearly as much power as a much modified pinto, all i know is it went like s@#t of a chromium plated shovel and didnt cost the earth to build. Hope this may be of some help, a little bit of vauxhall in there would be good :y I will try and find out what kit he used if you are interested, but he now lives in the states so could take a few days to contact. Cheers, Jez
Mate the XE to an Omega manual box and adapt the prop shaft.....much cheaper....and a much better box to!
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Hi Mark
Yes good point, he may well have done it that way around, was a while ago since i went in it but the ;D it gave me still remains
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XE wrong X30XE right! :y
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You could always go the DIY route
I have the utmost respect for anyone who can build a car without cheating and buying the chassis ready built as I did.
If I'd taken that route I suspect I'd still be figuring out how to weld, 7 years down the line!
So I'll definitely see you there on Sunday, the Mrs is coming too - she spent the night looking at kit cars online......
Excellent. Get her hooked and it'll be a lot easier ;-)
Do you think a passenger ride would persuade her? or put her off the idea? :-/ Tough call...
Mate the XE to an Omega manual box and adapt the prop shaft.....much cheaper....and a much better box to!
What are the ratios like on the Omega box? The commonly cited reason for using the Ford Type 9 is that there are plenty of gearsets available for it, and there need to be because the standard 1st is really short. 3.8 something IIRC.
I used an MT75 which is lighter, stronger, a bit bigger but, alas, no alternative ratios available.
The C20XE and Type 9 is a very popular combination though. Until the arrival of the Ford Duratec it was THE 4 pot to have. It ought to do MUCH better than a pinto. 170-180 odd on webers without modification IIRC.
Kevin
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Excellent. Get her hooked and it'll be a lot easier ;-)
Do you think a passenger ride would persuade her? or put her off the idea? :-/ Tough call...
Passenger ride.hmmm - that might not be such a bad plan, although the speed would scare her, so perhaps a 'gentle' ride around the block with no hairpins!
Whats your opinion on Tiger? I'm hoping they'll have a stand - they look pretty competitive up against the RH - I need to find some build diaries for them.. (Specifically the CAT E1..)
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Gear ratios are reasonable....plus you can adjust them with the diff....certainly one crap load cheaper than adaptor plates or specialist bell housing...
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Gear ratios are reasonable....plus you can adjust them with the diff....certainly one crap load cheaper than adaptor plates or specialist bell housing...
It's 1st that's always the problem, along with the huge gap between 1st and 2nd, although choosing the diff ratio carefully does help to a certain extent. Boxes from larger engined cars are normally better though. It's when they've been designed with a view to caravan towing with 1.6 engines that you're in trouble. I read somewhere that the manual police spec Omegas have a close ratio gearbox.. or is that another bit of Police spec hype?
Passenger ride.hmmm - that might not be such a bad plan, although the speed would scare her, so perhaps a 'gentle' ride around the block with no hairpins!
He He. OK. If I can take some time out from building this Westy at the weekend that'll be no problem. I'll set the rev limiter to 3 grand just to make sure I don't get carried away ;-) Hopefully the weather will be OK. If my wife knew then what she knows now about the comforts of kit car travel in less than perfect weather she'd never have gone near the thing! She'd certainly never have toured Ireland in it with me ;D
Whats your opinion on Tiger? I'm hoping they'll have a stand - they look pretty competitive up against the RH - I need to find some build diaries for them.. (Specifically the CAT E1..)
They're good kits IIRC. I've come across a few people with them and they seem happy.
They're bound to be there, along with half a dozen other manufacturers who should be in the running but who I've not thought to mention ;-)
Kevin