Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Markjay on 10 April 2007, 23:30:45
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First, a bit of history… I bought the current Omega in 2001 when it was 5 months old and had 6.4k on the clock. When the 3-year warranty was just about to expire, and with under 30k on the clock, Vx replaced under warranty both camcover gaskets and the oil cooler (there was another unrelated leak from the PAS pump, apparently due to lose hoses).
I don’t know for fact if they actually cleaned the breathers, but it was not mentioned on the (detailed) job sheet so I suspect not.
The oil cooler and camcovers were OK since, but a couple of months ago I noticed that the driver’s side camcover was leaking. I change the oil very frequently, but I have never cleaned the breathers – so they were probably never cleaned during the car’s 5 years / 50k lifetime.
I bought all the bits and got the job done during the last weekend. After removing the leaking camcover, it seemed that Vx did a good job, using original Vx gasket ad applying black sealant in the right places. Also, the breathers were totally blocked with brown-yellow sticky goo.
As result, I decided not to replace the passenger-side camcover gasket which was not leaking, even though I purchased the gasket for it. Since I found a good reason why the gasket was leaking in the first place, and the workmanship seemed good, I thought I could leave the good gasket in place. Hopefully, I won’t regret it…
I put it all back together and the engine seems to run OK, good idle, not hesitation or flat spots, and so far no apparent leaks. So so far so good...
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As usual, I have made some notes along the way and I would appreciate your comments.
1. Visually, the leaking gasket seemed sound. Had I just cleaned the blocked breathers, is there a chance that the leak would stop? Or is it the case that if once breached the gasket will never stop leaking? This could be important, because potentially the advice we give to users asking about leaking camcovers could be ‘clean the breathers first and then see what happens’?
2. The lesson is that changing the oil frequently is important but not enough – the breathers will get blocked even if the oil is changed, although it might take some 50k miles before they do. As often said by others here, the breathers need to be cleaned as a maintenance task, perhaps every 20k? Also, the goo seems not unlike the mayo that forms on the filler cap after short journeys, so I suspect that short journeys are a major contributor to the blocked breathers problem even if the oil is changed etc.
3. In my case, the ‘branch’ rubber hose going from the rear of the breather box to the back of the engine was completely blocked as well, and needed to be removed in order to be cleaned. Undoing and redoing the clip at the base can be very fiddly if not near impossible with the plenum in place (luckily mine was off), though perhaps removing the scuttle could help… at any rate I hope that regular cleaning of the top breather box will eliminate the need to remove and clean the rubber hose.
4. As others commented, it is practically impossible to fully clean the breather box and either way it is very time consuming. I suppose that a high-pressure air gun with a canister full of carb cleaner will do the trick, but this is not available to most DIY. I would suggest buying a new breather box every 20k… it would be interesting to find out how much are they. Alternatively, if someone does have the right kit for quick cleaning, perhaps a replacement service would work? Send you clogged (but not broken) breather box and get a shiny clean one for a Tenner? Just a thought.
5. On another note, I am unimpressed with the newly-bought Sealey 1/4" low-torque wrench (5-25NM), it has a play of 1 gradient, i.e. even after locking the base, the handle can easily be rocked from side to side by about one gradient. For the camcover, I opted for the ‘safe’ bet of 7-8NM, based on the hope that what matters is that they are all equal rather than the actual torque, and that in a worst case scenario even the 7NM would be good enough. For the Plenum bolts I went for 8-9NM, based on the assumption that the intake O rings are heftier and will not be damaged by a potential extra 1NM. I am going to raise this as a warranty issue with Sealey, but this will be too late for me… :(
6. In contrast, my two Draper torque wrenches are clearly marked and a pleasure to use. I also have a low-cost ‘Clark’ one bought from Machine & Mart for around £15, it does work but has an unpleasant low-quality feel to it and the dial is marked in odd sequence and is not very clear to read. :y
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7. When taking-off the intake ducts with the injectors rail, I noticed that the injectors where squeaky clean… no deposits whatsoever on or around the nozzles and not a hint of any brownish hue colouring… actually they looked brand new. I attribute this to 5 years of regular Redex use… :y
8. On a happier note, after taking off the plenum I found at the back of the engine one of the two plenum dust caps that Vx manage to loose when they did the cambelt change last year. I did kick up a fuss and they gave me two new ones (special order apparently - I waited a week), so I now have one spare - yeeeeeh.... If you don't understand why I get upset when they give me the car back minus two dust caps (and some other plastic bit which I only found out over time), then sorry but I can't really explain it... but I am sure AA knows what I mean. ;)
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Interesting, hopefully I'll be doing my camcover gaskets & breathers next Monday (along with cambelt), I'll keep a look-out for the things you've mentioned...
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Mark,
I wonder if you resolved the issue you had with the Sealey torque wrench? I am about to buy one so I'm interested in your comments.
Cheers,
Ian
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Another very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time to report your findings.
I totally understand why you should get upset about the missing cap. I would too!
I would think that, once the gasket is breached, it will continue to leak. It is a shame that it is too much work to experiment really.
I am going to do a breather clean at the same time as my spark plug change. I am going to the dealer tomorrow and will enquire as to the price of the breather box. Are you talking about the cover with Ecotec written on it or the box on the drivers cylinder bank? Either way, I will find out the price and the part code tomorrow.
I have already purchased the big pipe (which was special order) and I think that I will get the box and the Ecotec cover as well, along with the two small pipes that connect to it. Seems easier (and less time consuming) to simply replace these parts. On the other hand, as I will not be using the car for a while, I may just have a look at the pipes first.
It is very interesting to note your comments about the torque wrenches. Practical Classics did a test this month (thanks to WHSmith for letting me use the library facilities) ;D and they recommend a Norbar D60, I think the model number was. Had to laugh at the remarks aimed at the "Clark" device - just the sort of comments I would make. I am about to buy a wrench myself. I was thinking about Teng tools, but they did not get a good write up so I may well go for the Nobar one.
Did you take any pics of the process? I, for one, would be interested.
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I think there are pics in the user guide , but can't remember if it was on this site or the other one.
Cheers
Ian
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The pics were never there on this site, and only briefly on the other one as I understand it.
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I might clean a set tonight and post the pics....need to do some myself....
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They were there a month or so ago - I used them. I'll have a poke around.
Edit - just did. Here it is http://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63628
(hope I don't get banned for that, but it is Marks post after all :y)
Mark DTM - are you still happy with your Sealey torque wrench? Wonder if it was just an unlucky one that markjay had.
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Its on this site to...and has had extra info added to.....
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152564281
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Just followed the link and yes, the pics are indeed there as you say. I was at slight cross purposes though as I was talking about the breather cleaning pics - sorry about that!
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Mark, if you do get the chance tonight, that would be great. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
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I'd still be interested in any comments on the Sealey wrench before I order it.
Apologies for the x purposes x25xe - I had a suspicion that might be the case as I was sure the pics were there. Pics of breather cleaing would be good - amazing how a picture helps describe what to do (and give confidence you are disconnecting the right bit!)
Cheers
Ian
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Sealey Torque wrench:
I contacted Sealey, who told me I should apply for a warranty repair through the retailer. So I contacted toolsnstuff.co.uk (which is where I bought the torque wrench), and they indeed arranged collection. The wrench was returned a week or so later, with a job sheet saying 'no fault found'... it also mentioned that the wrench was tested for correct calibration and passed.
I contacted toolsnstuff.co.uk, and pointed-out to them that I never complained about wrong calibration, and that the original complaint was for what I considered to be a faulty handle locking mechanism. toolsnstuff.co.uk arranged collection again earlier his week, and I am waiting for the wrench to be returned hopefully repaired.
The lesson is that I should have placed a note with the actual fault description inside the wrench case - and not just assume that toolsnstuff.co.uk will forward the fault description to Sealey... seems obvious in hindsight, I know. This time I did include a print-out of the email correspondence with the box.
I will report back when it is retuned. And yes, it would be interesting to know if Mark DTM's does the same....
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Whilst we're on the subject of breathers; does anyone have the part No. for the "O" rings where two the boxes connect?
Mine were missing when I did them recently.
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Why Sealey...
Because it was the cheapest... by far. Teng do great tools, but the equivalent wrench is around £40, and I think the equivalent Draper one was over £30. Incidentally, I have two other Draper torque wrenches and they seem well built (definitely better than the Clark one from Machine & Mart).
The reason I went for the cheap one by the way is that I bought it specifically for the cam covers (although I did find-out since that also the throttle body bolts are 8NM), and I don't think that the absolute accuracy is important e.g. it could be 7.9 or 8.1NM, what is important is that (a) they are not too tight - bolting plastic into alloy to hold down rubber requires very low torque, and (b) more importantly that the torque is exactly the same for all bolts so that the covers don't get wrapped.
I have a good unit to cover the 10-80NM range, which is good for most bolts. I use the Clark for the wheel bolts which are 110NM, and this is good enough for that. I buy expensive tools when it makes sense to do so, but I already have three torque wrenches apart from the 5-25NM one so I didn't think I shopuld invest in a Teng wrench just for the cam covers.
Hopefully Sealey will fix it.....
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The bit I would replace if I need to do this again is the black plastic box on top of the plenum (it is actually under the ecotec logo, which can be prised off). As for the metal box at the back of the drivers-side cylinder head, Ronnie's guide said not to remove it, a recommendation I was only to happy to follow since the thing is almost inaccessible even with the plenum removed. In a perfect world then yes, this is part of the breather system so should be removed and cleaned, but I just cleaned it carefully in-situ while remembering TheBoy's warning that the small tube should be cleaned gently as there is a diaphragm underneath it...
I spent well over two hours just trying to clean the black breather box (and I have two of them due to the 'long plenum' - found on the 2.6/3.2 and on some late 3.0), and it is now clean but not as good as new. Also, there are two very tiny holes under the black plastic box, that you can hardly fit a needle in. These and the ducts leading to them are impossible to clean in a way that will guarantee that they don't get clogged-up again quickly.
So if a new box costs say £20-£30, then it would be worth it in opinion to just get a new one if the breather is badly blocked.
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Funny - I never thought of Sealey as cheap and cheerful. Actually the only Draper one I can find is this one at 70 quid
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Expert-Ratchet-Torque-Wrench-58130-Draper-EPTW5-22
and that's way too much :o(like you, I have a good wrench already that does 20Nm upwards).
I am inclined to agree that applying consistent torque assuming half decent accuracy is most important in this case.
I am currently considering this one
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.34303/.f
Its 3/8" which is what most of my sockets are, although I do have a cheap 1/4" set. Would you see any merits of the 1/4 over the 3/8?
Cheers,
Ian
and just for a laugh - for the price of a couple of Omega's you can have one of these:
http://www.powertoolwarehouse.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/89_256/products_id/720?osCsid=c9469e8a0a1110c8cd5783ce90018d77
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(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/525/breathersfw3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6521/breathers2gy3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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These may be of interest although they do not actually show the O-rings.... they should have been near where the number '7' is on the drawing.
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Breather bridge to plenum seal (1 off) 90467543 90p+VAT each, retail
Breather bridge to throttle O ring (2 off) 90500983 43p+VAT each. retail
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The bit I would replace if I need to do this again is the black plastic box on top of the plenum (it is actually under the ecotec logo, which can be prised off). As for the metal box at the back of the drivers-side cylinder head, Ronnie's guide said not to remove it, a recommendation I was only to happy to follow since the thing is almost inaccessible even with the plenum removed. In a perfect world then yes, this is part of the breather system so should be removed and cleaned, but I just cleaned it carefully in-situ while remembering TheBoy's warning that the small tube should be cleaned gently as there is a diaphragm underneath it...
I spent well over two hours just trying to clean the black breather box (and I have two of them due to the 'long plenum' - found on the 2.6/3.2 and on some late 3.0), and it is now clean but not as good as new. Also, there are two very tiny holes under the black plastic box, that you can hardly fit a needle in. These and the ducts leading to them are impossible to clean in a way that will guarantee that they don't get clogged-up again quickly.
So if a new box costs say £20-£30, then it would be worth it in opinion to just get a new one if the breather is badly blocked.
I will find out the cost of this tomorrow and report back. I hope that I did not give the impression that I was questioning why you bought Sealey - I am interested in purchasing a wrench myself - I have one at present but it is not that good... I agree totally about purchasing expensive tools.
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Breather bridge to plenum seal (1 off) 90467543 90p+VAT each, retail
Breather bridge to throttle O ring (2 off) 90500983 43p+VAT each. retail
OK, thanks, so these are no 8 & 11 in the drawing then.
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I will need to check my sealey wrench before passing comment.....I have found it pretty good and it locks off quite nicely, plus its what I could afford at the time....
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By the way, I did take pictures, but both the cam covers gasket and the breather cleaning are already covered in the Maintenance Guide section, so I only posted the bit about removing the plenum on 2.6/3.2 which is a slightly different procedure to the 2.5/3.0:
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176213776
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Its 3/8" which is what most of my sockets are, although I do have a cheap 1/4" set. Would you see any merits of the 1/4 over the 3/8?
The Sealey is 1/4" drive, which is not ideal for me since my Torx sockets are all 3/8" or 1/2". I should get an adapter, but in the mean time I am using standard (i.e. not Torx) 12-point 1/4" sockets - for the smaller sizes and low torques it seem to grip well and work fine...
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The Sealey one I was looking at was 3/8 for exactly the reason you mention.
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.34303/.f
I also found this as Teng seemed to be highly thought of:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Teng-3892ag-E1-Torque-Wrench-Angular/dp/B0001P0V8A/ref=sr_1_1/203-6538154-4637505?ie=UTF8&s=diytools&qid=1178287404&sr=1-1
Decisions...
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I went to the dealer yesterday to collect some other parts that I had ordered. They weren't in which means I cannot start work this weekend after all. >:(
I inquired as to the price of the breather box. If you purchase retail, they are priced at about £51. On TC they are £40. These prices are ex VAT.
For the sake of £40, I ordered one up and will fit this when I do my Breathers, Throttle bodies and plugs.
Not got an invoice yet, so can't quote the part number, but the diagram posted above should help with that.
Hope this helps
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The 5NM-25NM wrench just came back.. Sealey sent a brand new one in replacement of the faulty unit... the new one is exactly the same as the previous one - i.e. handle one gradient loose after tightening... so I guess that what I can say about Sealey is Brilliant service, not-so-brilliant products...
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Well done on the gasket change MJ :y
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Well done on the gasket change MJ :y
Thank you.... :o
That was over a month ago... ;D
Forgot all about it now... 8-)
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For some reason, I, too, have only just spotted this thread :o Very good MJ, and some interesting thoughts :-/
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Just checked mine.......with the handle locked I have 1 graduation of movement.....i.e. 0.1Nm.....which is bugger all and certainly not something I will be worrying about! :y
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Well done on the gasket change MJ :y
Thank you.... :o
That was over a month ago... ;D
Forgot all about it now... 8-)
Yes well done MJ :y
You must forgive AA.....he was probably having a nap ;D ;)
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Just checked mine.......with the handle locked I have 1 graduation of movement.....i.e. 0.1Nm.....which is bugger all and certainly not something I will be worrying about! :y
No worries... if my 7.9NM-torqued cam covers leak I shall come and see you then...? ;D
Thanks, Mark. I guess I'll live with it :y