Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: albitz on 10 November 2010, 14:13:39
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They are all getting a bit excited in London at the moment.
No doubt organised by the usual rent a mob from the Socialist w**kers party.
The solution is simples imo - send em all to Scotland. :y :D ;D ;D
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Bloody soap dodgers. ;)
I remember going on a demo when I was a boozing, shagaholic workshy student. Poll tax I think. Only went because the local nursing college had got a load going as well and I fancied something in uniform. :P
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Yes and full marks to them! :y :y :y
About time there were more protests about rising Student Fees! :D :D :D :D
Their actions should give the Political studies students a few marks towards their grades ;) ;)
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I was seriously considering taking a degree next year , subject - Take That, the early years. The fees are putting me off though. :D ;D ;D
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I was at a march in Dublin last week when the riots started.
http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-the-student-protest-2010-11/
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I was seriously considering taking a degree next year , subject - Take That, the early years. The fees are putting me off though. :D ;D ;D
So they should. ;)
Having gone through university back when it was all paid for I think the levels of fees currently being touted would make me seriously reconsider whether I want to end up £30k+ in debt at the start of my career just for a certificate, which is a shame for those for whom university education is the right choice.
It's a product of B.Liar's ridiculous assertion that 50% of school leavers need a degree and the proliferation of useless degree courses, IMHO. The state simply can't fund that.
Mine was an engineering degree and pretty much full time education: 9-5 most days with lab sessions and lectures with a good bit of work to take home too.
Even back then there were other students studying other disciplines doing useful activities for no more than a handful of hours a week. Back then I wondered at the sense of the public purse funding this and I don't think it's got any better, nor will it if we are to educate 50% of school leavers to degree level. :-/
I'm not trying to belittle anyone's education here. I just don't believe university is the answer to most people's (or employer's) needs. University is there to set people up for a career in academic research not for the career of practical work at the coal-face in industry that most people end up following.
The fact that most students (myself included) leave after a bachelors degree, go into industry and then have to learn on-the-job from a practical perspective rather than a theoretical perspective how to get the job done shows how irrelevant most degree courses are to real jobs.
I think what we need is to get back to the 1960's level of 20% or so of people going to university and then, mostly, into academic research with a proper government grant but to fill the gap with decent, more practical training that will put people straight into jobs in industry.
Kevin
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Yes and full marks to them! :y :y :y
About time there were more protests about rising Student Fees! :D :D :D :D
Their actions should give the Political studies students a few marks towards their grades ;) ;)
It will probably have a good effect on their livers, they won't have as much to wee up the wall ;D
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i would have been put off, I got through just before they were raised from £1.1k to £3k.
Remember this is just the fee's, no books, no rent, no food, for London Uni's you get £5k a year for living, this is supposed to pay all rent, food, books, computers you need.
So with a course like mine (4 year sandwich) you can have £20k of debt from that, then add in another £40k in fees, which means a £60k leaving debt :o
I'd be would smash up something if that was going to happen!
I have student debt, but its now sub 10k, which is still £160 out of my pay each month, so when leaving Uni you may earn a fair bit, but actual take home will be what a Tesco trolly pusher makes, or, you will be 120 years old before its paid off
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Kevin - nail on head. :y
A lot of criminal damage being done. - I hope the NUS is made to pay the bill and the individuals concerned (if they actually are students) are banned from every campus in the country - for life.
I believe (as Kevin alluded to) that there are far too many people at Uni these days. Reduce the numbers and raise the standards. Degrees have been devalued,diluted and demeaned in the last decade or so.
If there are going to be fees why dont all students in the UK pay a fixed amount, rather than students in England paying one amount and the rest of the UK paying nothing.
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I was seriously considering taking a degree next year , subject - Take That, the early years. The fees are putting me off though. :D ;D ;D
So they should. ;)
Having gone through university back when it was all paid for I think the levels of fees currently being touted would make me seriously reconsider whether I want to end up £30k+ in debt at the start of my career just for a certificate, which is a shame for those for whom university education is the right choice.
It's a product of B.Liar's ridiculous assertion that 50% of school leavers need a degree and the proliferation of useless degree courses, IMHO. The state simply can't fund that.
Mine was an engineering degree and pretty much full time education: 9-5 most days with lab sessions and lectures with a good bit of work to take home too.
Even back then there were other students studying other disciplines doing useful activities for no more than a handful of hours a week. Back then I wondered at the sense of the public purse funding this and I don't think it's got any better, nor will it if we are to educate 50% of school leavers to degree level. :-/
I'm not trying to belittle anyone's education here. I just don't believe university is the answer to most people's (or employer's) needs. University is there to set people up for a career in academic research not for the career of practical work at the coal-face in industry that most people end up following.
The fact that most students (myself included) leave after a bachelors degree, go into industry and then have to learn on-the-job from a practical perspective rather than a theoretical perspective how to get the job done shows how irrelevant most degree courses are to real jobs.
I think what we need is to get back to the 1960's level of 20% or so of people going to university and then, mostly, into academic research with a proper government grant but to fill the gap with decent, more practical training that will put people straight into jobs in industry.
Kevin
I kind of agree with you Kevin, having done a "proper" engineering degree back in the 80's the weeks were choc full of lectures, labs, tutorials.....I despair at some of the courses available back then - but more so now, all these "media studies" 3hrs a week and coursework if you feel up to it degrees that surely cant be worth the paper they're written on? how many media students does the world need? engineers, doctors, chemists, physicists, scientists I dont mind having taxes pay for....but "management science" or "retail marketing" or "film and tv studies"...er - fund that yourself bud :y
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Banjax - that post made a lot of sense. :y
Im going to lie down in a dark room now. :D ;D ;D
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I realise I am at odds with .. most people, I imagine, but personally I think university degrees should be entirely self funded (via loans if necessary)..
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Banjax - that post made a lot of sense. :y
Im going to lie down in a dark room now. :D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
its all a dream Albs, soon you'll wake up and I'll be spouting off about bankers again :y :y
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Banjax - that post made a lot of sense. :y
Im going to lie down in a dark room now. :D ;D ;D
Yes, it did make sense. :o :o ;) :D
Think I might have to join you in that dark room, Albs! ;) ;)
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Watching it unfold on Sky news - time to bring in the tear gas and mounted riot squad imo. >:( >:(
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I realise I am at odds with .. most people, I imagine, but personally I think university degrees should be entirely self funded (via loans if necessary)..
The problem is, that generates a massive incentive for graduates to get into industry and pay back their debts. This is the opposite to what we want IMHO. The most intelligent "thinkers" need to remain in academia doing research, which is poorly paid in comparison. Many of the brightest come from less affluent families and will either be put off further education by the prospect of debt, and never realise their potential,or get jobs in industry after a first degree and not pass it on to others via the academic institutions.
Kevin
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Banjax - that post made a lot of sense. :y
Im going to lie down in a dark room now. :D ;D ;D
Yes, it did make sense. :o :o ;) :D
Think I might have to join you in that dark room, Albs! ;) ;)
I'm glad you two have such an open relationship you feel you can share with the group :o :y
It's quite beautiful....sniff.... :'( ;)
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I realise I am at odds with .. most people, I imagine, but personally I think university degrees should be entirely self funded (via loans if necessary)..
The problem is, that generates a massive incentive for graduates to get into industry and pay back their debts. This is the opposite to what we want IMHO. The most intelligent "thinkers" need to remain in academia doing research, which is poorly paid in comparison. Many of the brightest come from less affluent families and will either be put off further education by the prospect of debt, and never realise their potential,or get jobs in industry after a first degree and not pass it on to others via the academic institutions.
Kevin
True I suppose - I always considered, though, that a career in academia was more of a vocation than a career, if that makes sense; something you'd do because you had a deep desire to teach, rather than for the money.
I imagine you could offset some of that problem by careful structuring of the repayment plans for student loans - it might be considerable debt, but debt you could pay off over your entire teaching career and/or die and leave some left behind that's written off by the state.
I imagine my perspective comes from the fact that I didn't go to University at all - a large number of friends of mine did, and ultimately? We all earn similar amounts (in the same industry) despite our vast difference in academic careers - I didn't even finish my A-levels while they went on to, in one case, Oxford..
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Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.
Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.
Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.
Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!
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I have read that some of these "students" (some are allegedly not students at all) are throwing fire extinguishers off the roof of CCHQ. Some serious injuries "reported".
:( :( :(
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Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.
Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.
Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.
Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!
Not the students I have got to know well, and certainly have no trouble in writing very good essays. In addition "cut and paste" is plagiarism, which is not only dealt with harshly, but is now identified by the use of a special software programme being used by the universities. ;) ;)
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Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.
Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.
Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.
Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!
Yes. Our glorious leader has the solution to the problem. 100,000 Chinese students paying top whack for an education over here then taking all their knowledge back home so that they can take over the world.
But never mind, he'll be writing his memoirs by then. ;D
On the subject of what's happening in London, someone suggested tear gas. I would suggest mustard gas, that would be an education for them. :y
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True I suppose - I always considered, though, that a career in academia was more of a vocation than a career, if that makes sense; something you'd do because you had a deep desire to teach, rather than for the money.
I'm sure that's true, but with a 30k debt hanging over my head, I'd want it gone. Maybe that's just my attitude towards debt in general... I don't like it.
I imagine my perspective comes from the fact that I didn't go to University at all - a large number of friends of mine did, and ultimately? We all earn similar amounts (in the same industry) despite our vast difference in academic careers - I didn't even finish my A-levels while they went on to, in one case, Oxford..
That is exactly my point. A degree might get your foot in the door easier, but it's not a degree that makes you able to do the job in 99% of cases - so why do increasing numbers of people need them?
I have read that some of these "students" (some are allegedly not students at all) are throwing fire extinguishers off the roof of CCHQ. Some serious injuries "reported".
It was just the same when I was at university with the poll tax. And back then it was those doing "non-degrees" that went to all the protests. ::) .. and were last to leave the SU bar every night.
Not that I can talk really. I had my moments where, if I'd been able to walk I might have left earlier... ::)
Kevin
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I just hope my students aren't wasting their rent money on a train ticket to London ::)
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I was seriously considering taking a degree next year , subject - Take That, the early years. The fees are putting me off though. :D ;D ;D
So they should. ;)
Having gone through university back when it was all paid for I think the levels of fees currently being touted would make me seriously reconsider whether I want to end up £30k+ in debt at the start of my career just for a certificate, which is a shame for those for whom university education is the right choice.
It's a product of B.Liar's ridiculous assertion that 50% of school leavers need a degree and the proliferation of useless degree courses, IMHO. The state simply can't fund that.
Mine was an engineering degree and pretty much full time education: 9-5 most days with lab sessions and lectures with a good bit of work to take home too.
Even back then there were other students studying other disciplines doing useful activities for no more than a handful of hours a week. Back then I wondered at the sense of the public purse funding this and I don't think it's got any better, nor will it if we are to educate 50% of school leavers to degree level. :-/
I'm not trying to belittle anyone's education here. I just don't believe university is the answer to most people's (or employer's) needs. University is there to set people up for a career in academic research not for the career of practical work at the coal-face in industry that most people end up following.
The fact that most students (myself included) leave after a bachelors degree, go into industry and then have to learn on-the-job from a practical perspective rather than a theoretical perspective how to get the job done shows how irrelevant most degree courses are to real jobs.
I think what we need is to get back to the 1960's level of 20% or so of people going to university and then, mostly, into academic research with a proper government grant but to fill the gap with decent, more practical training that will put people straight into jobs in industry.
Kevin
That's as well reasoned a piece on this subject I've read in a long time. 8-) :y
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I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................
I am never one for violence and war, that is my way.
But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.
However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!
In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!. Now what are "we" all doing? Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else. No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Amazing! Talk about double standards! Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same. Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!! ::) ::) ::)
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good points Liz, I have no problem with people demonstrating, even violence is sometimes necessary (women were given the vote only after long, turbulent, violent and dangerous protests by the Womens Social and Political Union for suffrage), and I have no doubt that a couple of students can easily make a peaceful demo look, in the eyes of the TV cameras, a violent mob - I have no problem with their right to voice and demonstrate their feelings, but I just think nowadays they only get worked up about what affects them rather than say the Vietnam war, poll tax or human rights, so it looks like a jolly, no ones that worked up - I'd guess a couple of them got a bit "merry" or over excited and the 24hr press are having a field day with the footage.
but chose your battles is all i'd say - we cant afford to fund everyone anymore, why should a cleaner on minimum wage pay for someone elses kid to spend 5 yrs at uni then go on to earn shedloads? that doesnt seem fair basically and the LibDems were stupid to ever promise they'd abolish fees :y
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I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................
I am never one for violence and war, that is my way.
But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.
However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!
In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!. Now what are "we" all doing? Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else. No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Amazing! Talk about double standards! Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same. Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!! ::) ::) ::)
By "direct action", do you mean hurling fire extinguishers off roofs, committing criminal damage, theft and assault?
Even the president of the NUS has deplored such behaviour.
There are no double standards at all, Lizzie. In fact there have been some extremely wise comments on here about the way the system has become financially unsustainable and how the political aim of shoving every Tom Dick & Harry through university, whatever their vocation, is not good for the country, or for many students.
The "students'" arguments are not enhanced by violence, which is what "direct action" has come to mean.
Here are my smilies:
>:( >:( >:( >:( :(
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we cant afford to fund everyone anymore, ....
how about tuition fees for north of the border? that'd help! ;) ;)
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my son is 14 and didnt know where wales was a few weeks ago. anyone know?? ;D ;D ;D
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I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................
I am never one for violence and war, that is my way.
But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.
However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!
In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!. Now what are "we" all doing? Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else. No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Amazing! Talk about double standards! Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same. Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!! ::) ::) ::)
I would guess nthat I am one of those you refer to Lizzie.
I have no problem with anyone making a legitimate protest, but what has happened today was wanton destruction and sickening violence. Totally unjustifiable and I look forward to you condemning it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that this protest was infiltrated and hijacked by rent a mob anarchists, and socialist workers party activists - its surprising how few of them actually work.
They were on the roof of Tory HQ chucking concrete and a fire extinguisher at the heads of police officers, while their mates were inside the building wrecking it and trying to set fire to it.
One of them was interviewed live on Sky news from the roof.
She was proud of what was happening, she wasnt a student. She stated that she was paid a salary to be a full time activist/ protester. I would like to know who pays her salary.
If there is any reason for the general public to sympathise with the students, it was completely wrecked today by these morons.
There will be more protests in the coming months, and Im certain the same faces will pop up at each one, with the intention of causing as much mayhem as possible.
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New Labour has degraded degrees to such a point, virtually every job advert now requires one. A degree is nothing special now.
I do strongly disagree with the protesters. If that is your chosen direction, you should bloody well have to pay for it! Every time I have been to college for evening classes, I have had to pay full price. When she did her degree, she had to pay full price (although her work subsidised parts of it). Why should our taxes pay for the work shy teenagers to do a pointless non-subject course?
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Viva la Revolution :y
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I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................
I am never one for violence and war, that is my way.
I would guess nthat I am one of those you refer to Lizzie.
I have no problem with anyone making a legitimate protest, but what has happened today was wanton destruction and sickening violence. Totally unjustifiable and I look forward to you condemning it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that this protest was infiltrated and hijacked by rent a mob anarchists, and socialist workers party activists - its surprising how few of them actually work.
They were on the roof of Tory HQ chucking concrete and a fire extinguisher at the heads of police officers, while their mates were inside the building wrecking it and trying to set fire to it.
One of them was interviewed live on Sky news from the roof.
She was proud of what was happening, she wasnt a student. She stated that she was paid a salary to be a full time activist/ protester. I would like to know who pays her salary.
If there is any reason for the general public to sympathise with the students, it was completely wrecked today by these morons.
There will be more protests in the coming months, and Im certain the same faces will pop up at each one, with the intention of causing as much mayhem as possible.
What have I written at the start of my thread Albs? That is what I said and that is what I meant ;)
What I have done is hopefully opened up another line of thought. What I have stated, in so many words is we all continue to voice annoyance, disatisfaction, and pure anger over what is done in our name, on especially the issues I have quoted. Yet how many of all of us are prepared to take it further.
The scale of human action ranges from just talking about a subject of real concern, through writing to the local press, taking it forward into the nationals, forming an action group, running for Parliament, right to the extreme of violent direct action. What is right? The violent action is normally not justified, although the Chartists did achieve indirect political change of "the establishment" that gave just enough to the public to deflate the aims of the masses (who in Aug 1819 had been violently attacked by government troops at the Peterloo Massacre) proving that it is the establishment of the time who can still commit violence to achieve their dubious aims; Northern Ireland 1968 - 1998, the Iraq War, and the existing Afghanistan War!!
What I am therefore highlighting is how we can all huff and puff about things, but some do far more, including always our Government. They always have and always will! What us as a society must decide is do we want the Political landscape to remain the same, or do we want to do something radical to force change. That is were our personal standards, morals, and conscience enters the fray!
What the "students" are doing is showing political anarchy which 'in youth' may seem very attractive, as any Friday night punch up in Folkestone may appear!
So we have us on here who jabber away, and may do nothing more than rant. Fair enough that is everyone's right, and in many cases you can do no more! But what I say is don't automatically condemn those who voice their political argument in more physical terms. What has led those to take that action is the question to be asked. What has society done to produce that level of anger? Is it a minority, or a bigger underground flow of political agitation?
Who knows, but in this instance the level of violence is way beyond acceptable levels.
Just as Field Marshal Douglas Haig, the establishment, was capable of committing violence using hundreds of thousands of British lives during 1914 -18. As now the British Government is using British lives in violence and death on foreign territory (for right or wrong reasons). Would public protests and violence have made a difference during the Great War; would violent protest now change the Governments approach to Afghanistan?
Well we will probably never know the answer to both as all we shall see is plenty of huff and puff, but no one blowing down the establishment by a long way! ;) ;)
Not like the Chartists did.................................. ;) ;)
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................back to Students, and those at university!
Why do so many want to knock these often highly intelligent youngsters who just want to do the best with their lives, and through their endeavours will provide this country with the talent and expertise that it will need to remain a world leader? Their future careers will undoubtedly mean that this country can feed itself, with all citizens gaining advantage from that as envisaged by the philospher Plato.
Please believe me when I say that they are not all time wasters - yes of course there are some, but they drop out by the second year! The vast majority are very justified to be at university and many should become professionals earning valuable GDP for Great Britain. That will pay our pensions and feed our grand children.
No, not everyone can possibly go to uni, but those who do should be assisted, It is in all our interests. ;) ;)
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What have I written at the start of my thread Albs? That is what I said and that is what I meant ;)
What I have done is hopefully opened up another line of thought. What I have stated, in so many words is we all continue to voice annoyance, disatisfaction, and pure anger over what is done in our name, on especially the issues I have quoted. Yet how many of all of us are prepared to take it further.
The scale of human action ranges from just talking about a subject of real concern, through writing to the local press, taking it forward into the nationals, forming an action group, running for Parliament, right to the extreme of violent direct action. What is right? The violent action is normally not justified, although the Chartists did achieve indirect political change of "the establishment" that gave just enough to the public to deflate the aims of the masses (who in Aug 1819 had been violently attacked by government troops at the Peterloo Massacre) proving that it is the establishment of the time who can still commit violence to achieve their dubious aims; Northern Ireland 1968 - 1998, the Iraq War, and the existing Afghanistan War!!
What I am therefore highlighting is how we can all huff and puff about things, but some do far more, including always our Government. They always have and always will! What us as a society must decide is do we want the Political landscape to remain the same, or do we want to do something radical to force change. That is were our personal standards, morals, and conscience enters the fray!
What the "students" are doing is showing political anarchy which 'in youth' may seem very attractive, as any Friday night punch up in Folkestone may appear!
So we have us on here who jabber away, and may do nothing more than rant. Fair enough that is everyone's right, and in many cases you can do no more! But what I say is don't automatically condemn those who voice their political argument in more physical terms. What has led those to take that action is the question to be asked. What has society done to produce that level of anger? Is it a minority, or a bigger underground flow of political agitation?
Who knows, but in this instance the level of violence is way beyond acceptable levels.
Just as Field Marshal Douglas Haig, the establishment, was capable of committing violence using hundreds of thousands of British lives during 1914 -18. As now the British Government is using British lives in violence and death on foreign territory (for right or wrong reasons). Would public protests and violence have made a difference during the Great War; would violent protest now change the Governments approach to Afghanistan?
Well we will probably never know the answer to both as all we shall see is plenty of huff and puff, but no one blowing down the establishment by a long way! ;) ;)
Not like the Chartists did.................................. ;) ;)
proving that it is the establishment of the time who can still commit violence to achieve their dubious aims; Northern Ireland 1968 - 1998,
Could you expand on that a bit for me Lizzie?
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What have I written at the start of my thread Albs? That is what I said and that is what I meant ;)
What I have done is hopefully opened up another line of thought. What I have stated, in so many words is we all continue to voice annoyance, disatisfaction, and pure anger over what is done in our name, on especially the issues I have quoted. Yet how many of all of us are prepared to take it further.
The scale of human action ranges from just talking about a subject of real concern, through writing to the local press, taking it forward into the nationals, forming an action group, running for Parliament, right to the extreme of violent direct action. What is right? The violent action is normally not justified, although the Chartists did achieve indirect political change of "the establishment" that gave just enough to the public to deflate the aims of the masses (who in Aug 1819 had been violently attacked by government troops at the Peterloo Massacre) proving that it is the establishment of the time who can still commit violence to achieve their dubious aims; Northern Ireland 1968 - 1998, the Iraq War, and the existing Afghanistan War!!
What I am therefore highlighting is how we can all huff and puff about things, but some do far more, including always our Government. They always have and always will! What us as a society must decide is do we want the Political landscape to remain the same, or do we want to do something radical to force change. That is were our personal standards, morals, and conscience enters the fray!
What the "students" are doing is showing political anarchy which 'in youth' may seem very attractive, as any Friday night punch up in Folkestone may appear!
So we have us on here who jabber away, and may do nothing more than rant. Fair enough that is everyone's right, and in many cases you can do no more! But what I say is don't automatically condemn those who voice their political argument in more physical terms. What has led those to take that action is the question to be asked. What has society done to produce that level of anger? Is it a minority, or a bigger underground flow of political agitation?
Who knows, but in this instance the level of violence is way beyond acceptable levels.
Just as Field Marshal Douglas Haig, the establishment, was capable of committing violence using hundreds of thousands of British lives during 1914 -18. As now the British Government is using British lives in violence and death on foreign territory (for right or wrong reasons). Would public protests and violence have made a difference during the Great War; would violent protest now change the Governments approach to Afghanistan?
Well we will probably never know the answer to both as all we shall see is plenty of huff and puff, but no one blowing down the establishment by a long way! ;) ;)
Not like the Chartists did.................................. ;) ;)
proving that it is the establishment of the time who can still commit violence to achieve their dubious aims; Northern Ireland 1968 - 1998,
Could you expand on that a bit for me Lizzie?
I will try Zulu, but I am sure you know it was, and still is, a very complex issue that goes back for centuries.
But from the introduction of British troops into Northern Ireland violence was the norm, and a continuation of the 1922 troubles in certainly one important respect: the creation of a united Ireland. The British Government of the day did not wish that to happen, so given almost unlimited support to the Unionists.
So Bloody Sunday was one of many incidents that were an unnecessary use of army firepower causing death and further resentment which the actions of the UK Government could have avoided but did not for their own reasons. The very presence of the British Army caused violence to flare up, and successive governments were just repeating the past British bloody approach to Ireland in general. Catholics resented their presence, and increased the use of violence, which further agitated the Unionists. Instead of political dialogue we had violence feeding violence. Those who live by the sword die by the sword, and that is what developed in NI due to successive governments trying hard to hold on to a bad situation that was crying out for dialogue, and who didn't want to be seen talking to the "terrorists", the IRA, and really didn't want to be seen by the Unionists to be understanding of what all parties wanted, and what could be delivered politically.
Both sides in this awful conflict committed astrocities, and suffered. The achievement of peace in the end is one thing that Tony Blair can be proud of, but the previous governments actions must be questionable. ;)
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The British army went into N.I. at the request of the Nationalist community. The violence had reached a frighteningly high level before the Army arrived on the scene - I know, as I was there. ;)
I cant see any relevance in comparing an Army in uniform fighting wars, conflicts etc. at the behest of their Govt. and the anarchic thuggery which took place in London today.
I did read the beginning of your post Lizzie, but it didnt come across as an unequivical condemnation of todays violence to me, but I may have misunderstood.
The British Govts have never willingly supported the Unionists, theres nothing they would have liked more than the Unionists to quietly go away, but they wouldnt, and the Govt. had no realistic choice but to allow them their democratic right to remain British subjects and N.I. to remain one of the four constituent countries of this United Kingdom.
They would have had a hell of a job trying to explain themselves, had they taken a different stance, particularily after the Falklands campaign in the early 80,s. ;)
The "achievemnet" had little to do with Bliar. Mo Mowlem did all the work and brokered the deals, then he appeared for the publicity at the announcement stage. He then destroyed her career as an act of malice, as he was jealous of the fact that she got more rcognition for her work than he would have liked,
He couldnt countenance sharing any of the spotlight with someone else. ;)
This peace you speak of is in part, an illusion Lizzie. Things are not what the media portray them as currently, but everyone is desperately trying to keep a lid on things, for fear of the current situation unravelling and escalating. :(
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I will try Zulu, but I am sure you know it was, and still is, a very complex issue that goes back for centuries.
But from the introduction of British troops into Northern Ireland violence was the norm, and a continuation of the 1922 troubles in certainly one important respect: the creation of a united Ireland. The British Government of the day did not wish that to happen, so given almost unlimited support to the Unionists.
So Bloody Sunday was one of many incidents that were an unnecessary use of army firepower causing death and further resentment which the actions of the UK Government could have avoided but did not for their own reasons. The very presence of the British Army caused violence to flare up, and successive governments were just repeating the past British bloody approach to Ireland in general. Catholics resented their presence, and increased the use of violence, which further agitated the Unionists. Instead of political dialogue we had violence feeding violence. Those who live by the sword die by the sword, and that is what developed in NI due to successive governments trying hard to hold on to a bad situation that was crying out for dialogue, and who didn't want to be seen talking to the "terrorists", the IRA, and really didn't want to be seen by the Unionists to be understanding of what all parties wanted, and what could be delivered politically.
Both sides in this awful conflict committed astrocities, and suffered. The achievement of peace in the end is one thing that Tony Blair can be proud of, but the previous governments actions must be questionable. ;)
Thanks Lizzie. I asked a slightly unfair question as (you have pointed out) there is an extensive history contained within that small part of the country.
It was a fundamentally intractable problem that still remains so today. There may be no overt displays of violence as in the past, but many attitudes remain locked in that same confrontational mode.
This situation is far from settled and I have no doubt that we will see further violence in the near future from both Republican and 'Loyalist' sources.
This was always a difficult problem for successive British Governments to deal with, although it must be said that the period following partition up to the mid 60's Westminster didn't really have much input as there was a duly elected government in place at Stormont. (Whether those successive Stormont Governments held justifiable or effective office is a topic for another discussion)
Over those years Republican violence in the form of the Marxist Irish Republican Army (later to be the Official IRA but unconnected with the legitimate armed forces of the Irish Republic) were largely quiescent only indulging in acts of violence every 10 to 15 years or so all of which were successfully dealt with by the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Ulster Special Constabulary (a paramilitary reserve force)
So there was always a history in dealing with the 'troublesome rebels' locally.
The sea-change in public opinion felt there and throughout the western world in the mid part of the 60's that resulted from people becoming better educated, having a more liberated attitude and being prepared to display their dissatisfaction by using violence really was the first time Westminster had to become actively involved in the politics of Northern Ireland.
The years leading up to 1973 when the Stormont Parliament was prorogued and direct rule from Westminster introduced were some of the most violent of the 'troubles'. Had the British Army not been present the RUC would have had a very difficult task in trying to contain widespread community violence.
This period forced military planners to develop new strategies as conventional tactics were oriented towards battlefield confrontation not urban guerrilla warfare so there was a sharp learning curve to be traversed with many mistakes made along the way.
Had James Callaghan not deployed military forces when he did, that province would have descended into civil anarchy that would have spilled over into the Irish Republic and western parts of Scotland.
I would submit therefore that far from being the problem in the recent history of Northern Ireland, Westminster (along with British forces) from Callaghan onward were the only viable solution to the raging problems there and not the causation of them.
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As usual Zulu a great summary of the recent events in NI history :y :y :y :y
I accept of course what you have put in your conclusion is the opinion of many. My problem is, I suppose, that I have read Irish history, listened to lectures by a leading Irish historian, along with witnessing, albeit only via different forms of media, the bloody events from 1968 to 1998. I have looked at the situation over centuries from both the Irish and English point of view. All I can see overall is that the English / British Government mis-managed the "Irish problem" for so long, and many a time it was a shameful affair. :( :(
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I too have read a lot of Irish history and long since came to the conclusion that almost all of it is shamelessly biased towards one or other side of the divide. As for "experts", I have heard many of them speak on TV and radio, and wondered if they were talking about the same place that I grew up in. I like to think of myself as a free thinking individual, I have little interest in which way the tide is flowing. So I have reached my own conclusions based on my own 20 years of living there,first hand experiences, many conversations with people who have been involved in some way or other, and reading/ listening to the opinions of politicians and "experts" on the subject.
Not much point in me bothering to type them up , as I think Zulu has got it absolutely spot on. Not biased in any way, but objective and factual in a manner which could only come from a good degree of first hand knowledge and a free thinking mind, which isnt easily swayed in one direction or the other by armchair experts etc.
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I thought this was a thread about University Students having to pay for the PRIVILEGE of having a Degree under their belt?
Obvisouly mistaken. I'll look for it again.
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Threads like this often stray into different territory and sometimes even end up full circle, back at the original subject matter.Just like a conversation down the pub ;)
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Threads like this often stray into different territory and sometimes even end up full circle, back at the original subject matter.Just like a conversation down the pub ;)
You're dead-on there son. While many students are indeed revolting, I met a couple of rather fetching semi-mature students at lunch today both of whom were far from revolting.
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I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................
I am never one for violence and war, that is my way.
But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.
However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!
In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!. Now what are "we" all doing? Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else. No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Amazing! Talk about double standards! Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same. Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!! ::) ::) ::)
Protest as such, not from me, I stated on the fireman strike thread that this was only the start... ::) even I am feeling rebellious, and am having to fight even harder for those that I look after.......Work wise, not home >:(
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I also believe that there us plenty more to come Mike, and the same agitators will be infiltrating and trouble making at every opportunity. They have no interest in the causes they are marching with, They want to overthrow capitalism, and see these events as a means to help them achieve that end, ;)
I have seen many students speaking on TV today who were completely sickened by the way these people had hijacked their protest. >:(
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What the "students" are doing is showing political anarchy which 'in youth' may seem very attractive, as any Friday night punch up in Folkestone may appear!
So we have us on here who jabber away, and may do nothing more than rant. Fair enough that is everyone's right, and in many cases you can do no more! But what I say is don't automatically condemn those who voice their political argument in more physical terms. What has led those to take that action is the question to be asked. What has society done to produce that level of anger? Is it a minority, or a bigger underground flow of political agitation?
Who knows, but in this instance the level of violence is way beyond acceptable levels.
It's not so much what society has done. I was there when students were organising similar protests against the poll tax, as I say. It wasn't so much anything to do with society, IMHO, but a bunch of not-quite-as-mature-as-they-think-they-are spoilt little kids who leave home for the first time and suddenly come to the realisation that they aren't getting everything delivered on a plate (oh, sorry - that's life, by the way).
Then someone hustles them onto a bus and- well, it beats another boring day at the SU bar library, so why not?
I actually thought that the poll tax was a pretty fair way to organise things, and told them so. We all generate rubbish, get caught short and use public loos, read library books, etc. It amounted to a couple of pints a week. Why shouldn't we pay equally for it?
Kevin
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I think some senior people in the Met Police have some serious questions to answer,they were totally unprepared for this and left some poor sods in an extremely vulnerable position, trying to defend law and order. They were fortunate they didnt have police officers killed yesterday.
I cant understand how they were so unprepared tbh, I cant remember the last major event of this type in London which wasnt hijacked to some extent by brain dead so called Anarchists.
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I too have read a lot of Irish history and long since came to the conclusion that almost all of it is shamelessly biased towards one or other side of the divide. As for "experts", I have heard many of them speak on TV and radio, and wondered if they were talking about the same place that I grew up in. I like to think of myself as a free thinking individual, I have little interest in which way the tide is flowing. So I have reached my own conclusions based on my own 20 years of living there,first hand experiences, many conversations with people who have been involved in some way or other, and reading/ listening to the opinions of politicians and "experts" on the subject.
Not much point in me bothering to type them up , as I think Zulu has got it absolutely spot on. Not biased in any way, but objective and factual in a manner which could only come from a good degree of first hand knowledge and a free thinking mind, which isnt easily swayed in one direction or the other by armchair experts etc.
I accept what you say completely Albs, and recognise perhaps that I have been "coloured" over the years which could well mean I am biased and wrong! :-[ :-[ ;) ;) I have also a sneaking admiration of the early IRA, with Michael Collins, fighting against a long history of British rule, which had undoubtedly been extremely cruel.
Do not get me wrong, the IRA of the "Troubles" committed many crimes that I cannot condon, although it rather goes back to what I was trying to explain earlier; man wants change, and there are various ways you can grade the action to achieve it. The IRA went the whole way with, as an example, the Birmingham Bombings was a murderous atrocity against innocent people. The IRA considered it a simple act in a War against the British. And that is always the big factor in these matters; the perception of people on what is happening, what should be done, and how action is taken. A dilemma for all.
On the issue of the student riots, there will today be many who attended asking themselves if they want to be part of it. Their perception no doubt be tested, and another learning curve will be achieved in their very young, inexperienced, lives. But at least they have tried to bring about change, albeit with a minority who have tried too hard with dubious objectives! ::) ::)
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New Labour has degraded degrees to such a point, virtually every job advert now requires one. A degree is nothing special now.
I do strongly disagree with the protesters. If that is your chosen direction, you should bloody well have to pay for it! Every time I have been to college for evening classes, I have had to pay full price. When she did her degree, she had to pay full price (although her work subsidised parts of it). Why should our taxes pay for the work shy teenagers to do a pointless non-subject course?
Aww come on you miserable lot.....it's just kids having a bit of harmless fun...... ;)
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I will leave the last word on the subject to the Daily Mash. ;D ;D
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britain-backs-middle-class-children-who-want-the-moon-on-a-stick-201011103243/
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11829102
They're at it again.. on the news at the moment there's footage of some 'youths' destroying a police van, while one young female student (who, incidentally, looked quite cute ;D ) remonstrated with the 'protesters' to stop as it was supposed to be peaceful..
The BBC also called it, and I believe I quote, 'Relatively peaceful' - compared to the Paris riots, I suppose so! ::)
Bring out the riot police, I say! ;)
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New Labour has degraded degrees to such a point, virtually every job advert now requires one. A degree is nothing special now.
I do strongly disagree with the protesters. If that is your chosen direction, you should bloody well have to pay for it! Every time I have been to college for evening classes, I have had to pay full price. When she did her degree, she had to pay full price (although her work subsidised parts of it). Why should our taxes pay for the work shy teenagers to do a pointless non-subject course?
Its not just the bit of paper, it where it sends you in life. Would I be here, with my own zone2 flat in London, working for Sky, if i did not go to Uni? Very much doubt it.
Had no idea what I wanted to do leaving college, or joining Uni. My BSc in Multimedia Design varied hugely from Java Programming to 3D design to Video Editing and on to Art!
It was only when I did my final year mobile application project which got me into the mobile industry, from that my first job in Covent Garden.
My degree just got my through the paper sift, thats all! My work and my final year project actually got me the job. Other people in my class which did cr@p final year projects are still working behind cash desk at their local Cinema!
If I had not gone to Uni and down that road into mobile, I would most likely still be a shelf stacker in Tesco, like some of my friends back at home are still doing!
Something had to be done, otherwise these fee's would be unquestioned, as i posted earlier, this new fee cap means average London Student would leave Uni with £65k of Debt!
Fc*king insane! My student debt of 10k costs me £180 a month in repayments (its % based on your salary what you pay back), so a 65k debt, the monthly payments will be roughly £1,000 :o It makes no financial sense going to Uni.
Fair play to them, something has to be done....
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Just more bloody people who want something for nothing. Great, education is free, but who pays for the maintenance of buildings and lecturers salaries etc? The bloody students that's who.
They're just so used to their mollycoddled world of getting anything and everything they want. Besides half their bloody student loans get pi**ed up the wall, and they just want no fees so they can have a better lifetsyle at the taxpayers expense. You go to university to learn, not to have a great 3/4 years at my expense thank you very much.
If I was an employer, I wouldn't favour anyone with a degree. These students should get out and live in the real world and understand that money doesn't grow on trees.
They go on their protests and marches and think they know it all!! It makes me laugh!
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New Labour has degraded degrees to such a point, virtually every job advert now requires one. A degree is nothing special now.
I do strongly disagree with the protesters. If that is your chosen direction, you should bloody well have to pay for it! Every time I have been to college for evening classes, I have had to pay full price. When she did her degree, she had to pay full price (although her work subsidised parts of it). Why should our taxes pay for the work shy teenagers to do a pointless non-subject course?
Its not just the bit of paper, it where it sends you in life. Would I be here, with my own zone2 flat in London, working for Sky, if i did not go to Uni? Very much doubt it.
Had no idea what I wanted to do leaving college, or joining Uni. My BSc in Multimedia Design varied hugely from Java Programming to 3D design to Video Editing and on to Art!
It was only when I did my final year mobile application project which got me into the mobile industry, from that my first job in Covent Garden.
My degree just got my through the paper sift, thats all! My work and my final year project actually got me the job. Other people in my class which did cr@p final year projects are still working behind cash desk at their local Cinema!
If I had not gone to Uni and down that road into mobile, I would most likely still be a shelf stacker in Tesco, like some of my friends back at home are still doing!
Something had to be done, otherwise these fee's would be unquestioned, as i posted earlier, this new fee cap means average London Student would leave Uni with £65k of Debt!
Fc*king insane! My student debt of 10k costs me £180 a month in repayments (its % based on your salary what you pay back), so a 65k debt, the monthly payments will be roughly £1,000 :o It makes no financial sense going to Uni.
Fair play to them, something has to be done....
Not sure thats something to be proud of - its just another corporate :-/. I can say this from a position of authority, as I too work for just another corporate...
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Our authorities could learn a lot from the Chinese, and their method of crowd control in Tiananmen Square.
I reckon if snipers popped the prat doing mindless criminal damage to OUR property (the prick trying (and failing, bloody retard) to smash the blue lights on the van), then the crowd would have dispersed. And it wouldn't have been a wasted life, it would save us a fortune paying benefits to that retard.
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Our authorities could learn a lot from the Chinese, and their method of crowd control in Tiananmen Square.
I reckon if snipers popped the prat doing mindless criminal damage to OUR property (the prick trying (and failing, bloody retard) to smash the blue lights on the van), then the crowd would have dispersed. And it wouldn't have been a wasted life, it would save us a fortune paying benefits to that retard.
Well said :y
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Our authorities could learn a lot from the Chinese, and their method of crowd control in Tiananmen Square.
I reckon if snipers popped the prat doing mindless criminal damage to OUR property (the prick trying (and failing, bloody retard) to smash the blue lights on the van), then the crowd would have dispersed. And it wouldn't have been a wasted life, it would save us a fortune paying benefits to that retard.
you wishy washy Liberals do my head in. ::) :D ;D ;D ;D
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And our taxes pay for repairs to police wagons, dont i get the democratic right to have tax payers property protected.
People always go on about protestors rights while forgetting the rights of the rest of us to enable to get home from work in a reasonable time instead of being held up by a load of unwashed spongers on a jolly.
:y
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Does this mean they won't be able to afford to run cars and drink large quantities of alcahol?
Tidy up Selly Oak a bit where Birmingham University is located.
Every road is chock a block with students cars, and the streets are a disgrace with beer cans and pizza cartons everwhere.
The area is rife with rats thriving on discarded food and bin bags left out for a week before the refuse collection, with their contents spilling out all over the pavements.
Put up the fees I say. :y
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Its not just the bit of paper, it where it sends you in life. Would I be here, with my own zone2 flat in London, working for Sky, if i did not go to Uni? Very much doubt it.
I used to think that, too, until I realised that I'd bought a house sooner than any of my friends who went to Uni, and I was considerably further on in my career than them..
Maybe they'll catch me up over time - most have, now - but it's taken them a while and they started out with a nice lump of debt to boot.
But y'know.. I never even finished my A-levels and I'd bought my flat by 20, and by 32 I'm in a 4-bed house and on a very good salary working for a billion dollar competitor to Cisco - doin' alright for someone who dropped out of school, I reckon ;)
Horses for courses, really - I'm not knocking those who want to go to university, but it's not the be-all and end-all of a career. I know I'd rather hire someone with four years experience than four years of Uni and zero experience for a role at my level.. on the other hand, Uni does teach some life skills.. how to down a pint in one, for example ;D
Back to the protests, anyway - they looked more like riots to me! Of course the French bloke I work with thought it looked great, but then he was there when the students were riotingprotesting in Paris.. ;D
I also giggled at the one student with a sign that read "We want to teach the world to sing.. but we can't afford our music degree!" - I wonder, do they really want to teach the world to sing, or are they just hoping to become the next PopFactorIdol.
Me? Cynical? Never! ;D
[edit] Edited as it came across as a little too much of an epeen size competition originally :-[
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I have read that some of these "students" (some are allegedly not students at all) are throwing fire extinguishers off the roof of CCHQ. Some serious injuries "reported".
:( :( :(
Unfortunatley, all too often you get that element that will "use" the protest for their own violent ends, most of which have never done anything for society - just live off it. Society's scumbags. >:(