Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: millwall on 09 December 2010, 21:25:35
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time to put it to the vote
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Can you add an option for the water cannon? ;)
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You have not put an option in the poll Millwall: "To support them in their political action" !!
We are not (yet) a non-free speaking, totalitarian state, where the masses cannot make their point of view known ::) ::) ::)
Don't forget it is a tiny number who always cause trouble during protests against the government in power ;) ;)
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Can you add an option for the water cannon? ;)
done cant believe i forgot that ;D ;D
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You have not put an option in the poll Millwall: "To support them in their political action" !!
We are not (yet) a non-free speaking, totalitarian state, where the masses cannot make their point of view known ::) ::) ::)
Don't forget it is a tiny number who always cause trouble during protests against the government in power ;) ;)
sorry lizzie done for you i know what your saying but its all gone to far now especially as we have to foot the bill and now royals have been targated they have lost my sympothy im afraid
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You have not put an option in the poll Millwall: "To support them in their political action" !!
We are not (yet) a non-free speaking, totalitarian state, where the masses cannot make their point of view known ::) ::) ::)
Don't forget it is a tiny number who always cause trouble during protests against the government in power ;) ;)
sorry lizzie done for you i know what your saying but its all gone to far now especially as we have to foot the bill and now royals have been targated they have lost my sympothy im afraid
As my grumpy/barmy Irish grandfather used to say....
The only place you'll find sympathy here is in the dictionary somewhere between sh!t and syphalis!!!
Voted :y
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The only place you'll find sympathy here is in the dictionary somewhere between sh!t and syphalis!!!
that has made my day absolutely brilliant ;D ;D :y
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You have not put an option in the poll Millwall: "To support them in their political action" !!
We are not (yet) a non-free speaking, totalitarian state, where the masses cannot make their point of view known ::) ::) ::)
Don't forget it is a tiny number who always cause trouble during protests against the government in power ;) ;)
sorry lizzie done for you i know what your saying but its all gone to far now especially as we have to foot the bill and now royals have been targated they have lost my sympothy im afraid
Thanks Millwall! :y :y :y
Sorry, but you are swallowing line, hook, and sinker the media hype / government propaganda.
A large number of Canterbury Christ Church University politics students, and our lecturers, attended the first big demonstration (when the extinguishers were thrown) and they joined thousands who simply protested peacefully all around the centre of London with no trouble at all seen by them. The media were nowhere to be seen!!
As always it was a tiny number of "professional" aggitators, especially anachists and other anti-authority groups, who caught the attention of the cameras. They did not represent the vast majority of the REAL student protesters, who incuded many mature students! ;)
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which holds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something. The only way to do that is make it an achievement only the 'elite' can attain!
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
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I do have to agree with you there Lizzie. Very much like that episode of 'Coppers' with the EDL protest. At least that program showed the whole event and how well behaved the EDL were for the majority of the day. All until the other group joined right at the end.
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Sorry, but you are swallowing line, hook, and sinker the media hype / government propaganda.
i know lizzie but if these were footie supporters it would be a different story the public would be screaming for 10 years in prison for everyone i agree theyve been shafted but with this government im not surprised
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I find it difficult to vote! :-?
I believe there should be a sliding scale for fees. Some courses, such as science, engineering should be free. Others, such as Arts & Business degrees, should be chargeable, but nowhere near as high as the £9k/year proposed. The lesser, dafter, courses in pop music performance, hair dressing management & equestrian psychology (yes, they are all real), should charged at cost+lots. :y
On the other hand, whilst I support the right of students to protest, I do not support the right to violence or damage to property. Nor, do I support the right of demonstrators to cover their faces with scarves or balaclavas. >:(
Can I abstain, pretty please? ;) ;D ;D
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I find it difficult to vote! :-?
I believe there should be a sliding scale for fees. Some courses, such as science, engineering should be free. Others, such as Arts & Business degrees, should be chargeable, but nowhere near as high as the £9k/year proposed. The lesser, dafter, courses in pop music performance, hair dressing management & equestrian psychology (yes, they are all real), should charged at cost+lots. :y
On the other hand, whilst I support the right of students to protest, I do not support the right to violence or damage to property. Nor, do I support the right of demonstrators to cover their faces with scarves or balaclavas. >:(
Can I abstain, pretty please? ;) ;D ;D
no sorry choose watercannon most popular so far ;D ;D :y
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which hlds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something.
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
Sorry BM but you have obviously no idea about how hard uni students work on the serious academic, or medical subjects taught at Canterbury Christ Church and many other universities ::)
You are also ignoring the fact that university prepares the young, and mature, students for further years of study in the medical, teaching, engineering, legal, and technical fields, to name but a few!
Without that process GB.com would be deficient in the skills required to run a first world, high performing, country that can lead the rest in the field GB does currently. I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive 8-) 8-)
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there was grafitti at bath uni above the bog roll which stated, humanities,socialogy,art, media studies etc(delete as ness)degrees ,please take one
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which hlds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something.
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
Sorry BM but you have obviously no idea about how hard uni students work on the serious academic, or medical subjects taught at Canterbury Christ Church and many other universities ::)
You are also ignoring the fact that university prepares the young, and mature, students for further years of study in the medical, teaching, engineering, legal, and technical fields, to name but a few!
Without that process GB.com would be deficient in the skills required to run a first world, high performing, country that can lead the rest in the field GB does currently. I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive 8-) 8-)
Good point.
My Mother is a General Practitioner at a major hospital in Bristol... She is reaching retirement age. If you need to know anything about Medical Students and how their 'education' is piss poor, I'll happily give you her number. :y
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I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive
god help us ;D ;D lizzie your not an oap stop blagging it ;D ;D
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umm, im a bit baffled lizzie one of us is on planet earth but im not sure which one?
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umm, im a bit baffled lizzie one of us is on planet earth but im not sure which one?
The real Earth I am on, where no one is perfect and society is made up of all types! Some work bloody hard, others just get by, and others fail for all kinds of social and psychological reasons. That is the real world, and that is the world in any workplace, university, or street.
Everyone can quote the "useless" student example, the "useless worker", "useless person", or any other type of "useless" state, but most of us try our best. So do young and developing students try their best. Mankind has not yet (thank God) produced the perfect Superbeing. ;) ;)
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Mankind has not yet (thank God) produced the perfect Superbeing
eeh im here lizzie ;D ;D
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umm, im a bit baffled lizzie one of us is on planet earth but im not sure which one?
The real Earth I am on, where no one is perfect and society is made up of all types! Some work bloody hard, others just get by, and others fail for all kinds of social and psychological reasons. That is the real world, and that is the world in any workplace, university, or street.
Everyone can quote the "useless" student example, the "useless worker", "useless person", or any other type of "useless" state, but most of us try our best. So do young and developing students try their best. Mankind has not yet (thank God) produced the perfect Superbeing. ;) ;)
ahem!
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Havent voted as none of the categories really fit how I feel on the subject.
I disagree with the hike in fees, but probably for different reasons to the protestors.
I think its ourageous that students in England will have to pay up to £9000, while students in other parts of the UK dont pay a penny. Everyone in the UK should pay the same amount whatever that amount is.
The rich wont really care about having to pay the fees. The poor wont have to pay them at all. It is the people in the middle who are going to be hit yet again. People who have worked hard, maybe earn £35,000 per year, have been sensible and saved a few quid, done nothing wrong, but are getting shafted by this govt. the same as they got shafted by the last one.
I think there are far too many people at university these days and far too many "mickey mouse course2 for them to study.
The idea introduced by the last govt. and not cancelled by this one that at least 50% of school leavers should go to uni is ludicrous imo. It devalues and demeans what a degree from a British university used to mean. Cut it down to the top 10% of school leavers and drop the degrees on silly subjects and then abolish fees altogether imo. We would then (as a country) really be investing in our own future.
If the graduates move to work abroad within say 10 years of graduating, make them pay back the cost of their uni education.
There is no excuse for the violence. I have no doubt that it is instigated by agitators and anarchists, although no doubt some of the students ( being young and therefore attracted by excitement and rebellion) join in.
Whatever the arguments are and whover did the dirty deed, they have lost most of what sympathy they might have had tonight after attacking Charlies car.
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i was impressed with the sit in thats being going on for about 3 weeks in a uni in london...until i discovered that they're going to lectures, shopping, going home when they feel like it and only coming back to sleep there. now wheres the commitment in that? no follow through kids these days, no idea how to protest ;D ;D
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I worked for at Art & Design department at a Uni for a time in the late 90's, early 2000's.
One work of art was a jam jar full of maggots.
It got knocked over at some point and the maggots escaped, we had bluebottles coming out of every nook and crany for weeks.
You never saw a lecturer before 09:30 and after 16:30., one day off a week for 'research?', ignoring the length of holiday they had (and these were the people who were complaing that they were overworked, and understaffed).
I've never seen such a waste of money in all my life, in the Faculty were I worked, the Dean used to take the Heads of Deparments and Lecturers away to a plush hotel for three days, once a year, to discuss, amongst other things, how to raise external funding.
The bill for the hotel was aroung £100K.
Why they had to take everyone away beggers belief, as they had lecture theatres standing empty most of the time, which would have been entirely suitable for such a meeting.
If Universities were private industry, having to generate their own income, they wouldn't last five minutes in a commercial world.
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Auto if every uni was a franchise and the only merit of education was to make money then thats not a country i'd wish to live in, this idea that everything must make money or its worthless is entirely bogus - and i've seen astonishing waste in the private sector, lets not go crazy here :o
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Auto if every uni was a franchise and the only merit of education was to make money then thats not a country i'd wish to live in, this idea that everything must make money or its worthless is entirely bogus - and i've seen astonishing waste in the private sector, lets not go crazy here :o
I agree, there is waste in the private sector, but not as much as there is in Government (Tax Payer) funded institutions - and I'm not advocating everything should make money, certain things should be tax payer funded, but control it, and cut out the vast majority of waste.
A prime example, why fly someone back and forth from Mexico, just to vote, surely they could change the rules, and vote by proxy, it would never happen in private industry.
A lot of people in institutions think money is no object, because the Government is providing the funding, forgetting that they as a taxpayer are really funding it.
If they had to pay for it out of their own pockets, they'd think more about waste.
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There's nothing wrong with a protest but when they start rioting then they need to be sorted out and made to pay for the damage/extra policing, just tot it up and add it onto next years fees ;D
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There's nothing wrong with a protest but when they start rioting then they need to be sorted out and made to pay for the damage/extra policing, just tot it up and add it onto next years fees ;D
Excellent idea Pete! :y It would certainly make some of them think about rioting and causing criminal damage.
While I can sympathise with their cause, unfortunately it's always the minority that use such events with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble and I bet some of these trouble makers aren't even students! >:( They're the one's that should be severely dealt with (or shot! ::)).
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which hlds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something.
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
Sorry BM but you have obviously no idea about how hard uni students work on the serious academic, or medical subjects taught at Canterbury Christ Church and many other universities ::)
You are also ignoring the fact that university prepares the young, and mature, students for further years of study in the medical, teaching, engineering, legal, and technical fields, to name but a few!
Without that process GB.com would be deficient in the skills required to run a first world, high performing, country that can lead the rest in the field GB does currently. I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive 8-) 8-)
Agreed. I for one am for the increase in fees, they make sense and it is still cheaper than going to Uni in the States. Personally I think that mickey-mouse degrees should be scrapped completely but I know that is unrealistic. This system is actually quite intelligent because it will make people realise that they will have to get a proper job afterwards in order to pay for the education they have just had, thus hopefully shy away from pansy degrees which offer less of a future to the graduate and little benefit to the country.
The right to protest is your right (I gave up mine 6 years ago) but that does not include violence, intimidation or wanton destruction of property. And those that attacked the Royal motorcade should be found and made an example of. Attacking a royal is bad enough but it's rather stupid for lefty students to attack the most left wing royal we have had in centuries!
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which hlds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something.
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
Sorry BM but you have obviously no idea about how hard uni students work on the serious academic, or medical subjects taught at Canterbury Christ Church and many other universities ::)
You are also ignoring the fact that university prepares the young, and mature, students for further years of study in the medical, teaching, engineering, legal, and technical fields, to name but a few!
Without that process GB.com would be deficient in the skills required to run a first world, high performing, country that can lead the rest in the field GB does currently. I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive 8-) 8-)
Yes Lizzie, it prepares them academically but unfortunately there's one major thing that always gets forgotten and that very few of them have these days............COMMON SENSE! ::)
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The idea introduced by the last govt. and not cancelled by this one that at least 50% of school leavers should go to uni is ludicrous imo. It devalues and demeans what a degree from a British university used to mean. Cut it down to the top 10% of school leavers and drop the degrees on silly subjects
Couldn't agree more. Universities (until they renamed every other institute of further education a "university") exist primarily to carry out research. Quite how you can carry out research into some subjects on offer baffles me. They should stick to science and engineering, the pure humanities and arts, Mathematics, Computing, Law, etc.(not necessarily an exhaustive list, before I get flamed). Subjects where there is something to be gained for the country in return for the government funding that would then naturally be spread less thinly and, probably, more liberally given.
Even when I was at university there were students on a full government grant, with all tuition fees paid, studying for non-degrees that involved a handful of lectures a week. The rest of their time, and the majority of their grant, was pi$$ed against the wall in the gents of the student's union bar. Can they really complain that the country has tired of funding this pointless activity?
It's just a shame that the minority of talented great minds who are no doubt the future of this country will have to pay so heavily just for them to have a 3 year drinking binge.
I have no doubt that it is instigated by agitators and anarchists, although no doubt some of the students ( being young and therefore attracted by excitement and rebellion) join in.
Yep. It was exactly the same then I was at university, just "poll tax" daubed on the banners instead. Coaches would turn up and anyone who fancied a scrap (and whose non-degree gave them enough spare time) jumped on. Not all were students, by any means. They are a group easily infiltrated by hooligans who are out purely to cause trouble, and there's safety in numbers.
Kevin
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i was impressed with the sit in thats being going on for about 3 weeks in a uni in london...until i discovered that they're going to lectures, shopping, going home when they feel like it and only coming back to sleep there. now wheres the commitment in that? no follow through kids these days, no idea how to protest ;D ;D
The doors of the University of Essex where I studied still have the marks where they were welded shut in a "proper" protest in the '70's. :y
Kevin
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Agreed. I for one am for the increase in fees, they make sense and it is still cheaper than going to Uni in the States. Personally I think that mickey-mouse degrees should be scrapped completely but I know that is unrealistic. This system is actually quite intelligent because it will make people realise that they will have to get a proper job afterwards in order to pay for the education they have just had, thus hopefully shy away from pansy degrees which offer less of a future to the graduate and little benefit to the country.
.. except that, if you never get a decent job, you'll never be required to pay the money back. Worst of both worlds, IMHO. Those who succeed will pay, those who can't be @rsed won't.
Kevin
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Agreed. I for one am for the increase in fees, they make sense and it is still cheaper than going to Uni in the States. Personally I think that mickey-mouse degrees should be scrapped completely but I know that is unrealistic. This system is actually quite intelligent because it will make people realise that they will have to get a proper job afterwards in order to pay for the education they have just had, thus hopefully shy away from pansy degrees which offer less of a future to the graduate and little benefit to the country.
.. except that, if you never get a decent job, you'll never be required to pay the money back. Worst of both worlds, IMHO. Those who succeed will pay, those who can't be @rsed won't.
Kevin
I attended University of California (Davis) in the early 80`s.
My seven years of graduate, post-graduate and terminal studies, cost me in excess of $92,000 in fees (in addition, I was fortunate enough to recv. a $25,000 bursary).....To pay those fees and live, I worked in paid P/T employment during courses and during vacations and repaid the outstanding balance in the first 4 years of full time employment.
The wonderful privilege that attending upon a University education is worth every penny......the "everything for nothing" generation now think it`s their 'right'. :(
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Agreed. I for one am for the increase in fees, they make sense and it is still cheaper than going to Uni in the States. Personally I think that mickey-mouse degrees should be scrapped completely but I know that is unrealistic. This system is actually quite intelligent because it will make people realise that they will have to get a proper job afterwards in order to pay for the education they have just had, thus hopefully shy away from pansy degrees which offer less of a future to the graduate and little benefit to the country.
.. except that, if you never get a decent job, you'll never be required to pay the money back. Worst of both worlds, IMHO. Those who succeed will pay, those who can't be @rsed won't.
Kevin
I attended University of California (Davis) in the early 80`s.
My seven years of graduate, post-graduate and terminal studies, cost me in excess of $92,000 in fees (in addition, I was fortunate enough to recv. a $25,000 bursary).....To pay those fees and live, I worked in paid P/T employment during courses and during vacations and repaid the outstanding balance in the first 4 years of full time employment.
The wonderful privilege that attending upon a University education is worth every penny......the "everything for nothing" generation now think it`s their 'right'. :(
I am not sure of the exact demographics but I think it is safe to say that a graduate at some point in their life will earn over that threshold, if you think about it that salary is approximately £11 per hour (based on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks unpaid holiday a year)
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The wonderful privilege that attending upon a University education is worth every penny......the "everything for nothing" generation now think it`s their 'right'. :(
I quite agree Deb. :y
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Havent voted as none of the categories really fit how I feel on the subject.
I disagree with the hike in fees, but probably for different reasons to the protestors.
I think its ourageous that students in England will have to pay up to £9000, while students in other parts of the UK dont pay a penny. Everyone in the UK should pay the same amount whatever that amount is.
The rich wont really care about having to pay the fees. The poor wont have to pay them at all. It is the people in the middle who are going to be hit yet again. People who have worked hard, maybe earn £35,000 per year, have been sensible and saved a few quid, done nothing wrong, but are getting shafted by this govt. the same as they got shafted by the last one.
I think there are far too many people at university these days and far too many "mickey mouse course2 for them to study.
The idea introduced by the last govt. and not cancelled by this one that at least 50% of school leavers should go to uni is ludicrous imo. It devalues and demeans what a degree from a British university used to mean. Cut it down to the top 10% of school leavers and drop the degrees on silly subjects and then abolish fees altogether imo. We would then (as a country) really be investing in our own future.
If the graduates move to work abroad within say 10 years of graduating, make them pay back the cost of their uni education.
There is no excuse for the violence. I have no doubt that it is instigated by agitators and anarchists, although no doubt some of the students ( being young and therefore attracted by excitement and rebellion) join in.
I agree wholeheartedly with all you said here. About a week ago I said how ridiculous it was that students in Wales and scotland will pay less. They are either in the UK or not. My comment then about getting the unemployed to rebuild Hadrians Wall and a new one on the Welsh border and then "cutting them free" still stands.
There wasn't a suitable option for me on the vote either so I have voted support the students. Once again the crappy UK media has chosen to concentrate on the actions of a minority and not the majority. You would think watching TV that the streets are unsafe at nightime for packs of marauding students intent on damaging property or worse.
I wonder if the Royals security will get "court marshalled" for putting them in danger? Don't suppose so for a minute.
Turncoat Lib Dems. Absolute power corrupts.
Whatever the arguments are and whover did the dirty deed, they have lost most of what sympathy they might have had tonight after attacking Charlies car.
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the students riots have lost there right to make any demonstrations. any future demos should result in them breaking the law and they should be expelled from any university or college they attend, permanatly. if they still wish to demonstrate they should be charged and punished according to the law. overseas students should be expelled.
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the students riots have lost there right to make any demonstrations. any future demos should result in them breaking the law and they should be expelled from any university or college they attend, permanatly. if they still wish to demonstrate they should be charged and punished according to the law. overseas students should be expelled.
totally agree :y
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Couldn't give a flying break for the Royals, threaten them all you like.
University is a farse nowadays... degree's in rubbish which hlds no real value in society. Even 'proper' degree's are a waste of time as there are no jobs for graduates anyway. The market is flooded.
Get back to the times where a University Degree actually meant something.
Signed, Ross, 28 (Yes, 28) 4 A Levels, 13 GCSE's and 2 Advanced GNVQ's. NO rather DEGREE AS I WORK FOR A LIVING.
Sorry BM but you have obviously no idea about how hard uni students work on the serious academic, or medical subjects taught at Canterbury Christ Church and many other universities ::)
You are also ignoring the fact that university prepares the young, and mature, students for further years of study in the medical, teaching, engineering, legal, and technical fields, to name but a few!
Without that process GB.com would be deficient in the skills required to run a first world, high performing, country that can lead the rest in the field GB does currently. I, and you, will also depend on todays young to produce the country's GDP to help us as OAP's to survive 8-) 8-)
Yes Lizzie, it prepares them academically but unfortunately there's one major thing that always gets forgotten and that very few of them have these days............COMMON SENSE! ::)
Bob, most never did and never will all the time they are young. They think in black and white terms when problem solving, and usualy do not consider the grey areas of life. But they ARE young, as we were once, with the same kind of ideas of life in general. Maturity and experience rights these issues, and many usually become well rounded people. The others become politicians...................!! Did I say that!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D
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I have seen 4 groups of student leaders interviewed today, and 3 out of the 4 refused to condemn anything that happened.
The line seems to be that the police came equipped to attack the students and the students resisted when they were attacked. They are apparently too dim to realise that it was all happening live on TV so people could see exactly who was doing the attacking.
Having watched quite a lot more footage today, I have to say that this was more than just a small minority of agitators stirring others up. There were large numbers of demonstrators attacking the police ( and their horses) as well as damaging property (mostly public) and urinating on Churchills statue (and the cenotaph I belive ). And then of course there was the ridiculous episode with the royals.
People who are this stupid, shouldnt be allowed within a mile of a university, if they dont realise that their actions will (and have) destroy any sympathy the general public had for their cause.
Identify them where possible. Ban them from every campus in the country, and sequestrate the assets of the organisers.
I have now voted - make them pay for the damage.
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I have seen 4 groups of student leaders interviewded today, and 3 out of the 4 rufesed to condemn anything that happened.
The line seems to be that the police came equipped to attack the students and the students resisted when they were attacked. They are apparently to dim to realise that it was all happening live on TV so people could see exactly who was doing the attacking.
Having watched quite a lot more footage today, I have to say that this was more than just a small minority of agitators stirring others up. There were large numbers of demonstrators attacking the police ( and their horses) as well as damaging property (mostly public) and urinating on Churchills statue (and the cenotaph I belive ). And then of course there was the ridiculous episode with the royals.
People who are this stupid, shouldnt be allowed within a mile of a university, if they dont realise that their actions will (and have) destroy any sympathy the general public had for their cause.
Identify them where possible. Ban them from every campus in the country, and sequestrate the assets of the organisers.
I have now voted - make them pay for the damage.
:y Indeed so, Albs. :y
It transpires that the cretin that climbed up and tore the Union Flag on the Cenotaph, was the son of Pink Floyd`s Dave Gilmour.....the 'lad' is said to be horrified at his own stupidity: I wonder if that would`ve been the case if he hadn`t been photographed and identified? :-?
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Students who profess to be intelligent educated people, behaving like this! They should try putting something into society instead of wanting more and more for nothing.
A news reporter was interviewing 3 students, and it was blatantly obvious they didn't have any grasp of current affairs or what they're actually protesting about. Had they bothered to understand, or did they just go on a protest for the fun of it?
Some other students were also chanting 'Give us our money back' or something similar! What money? What are they talking about?
As for that Aaron Porter (president of NUS). I bet all he's ever done is gone to uni, had a bloody good 3/4 years drinking, partying having a laugh, scraped through, perhaps gone on to do a masters because he likes the 'student lifestyle' then got in his current position. What the hell does he know? He's just a silly boy who hasn't grown up. Where is all the money coming from? Students have to take a hit like the rest of us.
Not to mention that degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on now, never mind the mickey mouse degrees! You couldn't make this up!!
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It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
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One work of art was a jam jar full of maggots.
It got knocked over at some point and the maggots escaped, we had bluebottles coming out of every nook and crany for weeks.
A superb and very practical example of kinetic art AA. 8-) :y :y
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It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
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i am with milwal on this one..water cannons first..first wash some of them have had in a long time..although water cannon can't be used in this country as it is a indiscriminate weapon..more effective is tear gas which we can use if that dont work send the dogs in
can those who support the idiots who want all their education for next too nothing tell me who will utimiately benefit from it...not the country but them
Also why should i pay for teaching someone who wants to take a degree in surf board management ...that right guys that'a degree course run by bournemouth uni...unbelivable ::)
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Students who profess to be intelligent educated people, behaving like this! They should try putting something into society instead of wanting more and more for nothing.
A news reporter was interviewing 3 students, and it was blatantly obvious they didn't have any grasp of current affairs or what they're actually protesting about. Had they bothered to understand, or did they just go on a protest for the fun of it?
Some other students were also chanting 'Give us our money back' or something similar! What money? What are they talking about?
As for that Aaron Porter (president of NUS). I bet all he's ever done is gone to uni, had a bloody good 3/4 years drinking, partying having a laugh, scraped through, perhaps gone on to do a masters because he likes the 'student lifestyle' then got in his current position. What the hell does he know? He's just a silly boy who hasn't grown up. Where is all the money coming from? Students have to take a hit like the rest of us.
Not to mention that degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on now, never mind the mickey mouse degrees! You couldn't make this up!!
And sadly, no question but that he is a future Minister. I predict that he will probably have, or get, a legal qualification, become a researcher in the H of C, and be an MP in 5 or 6 years, AND KNOW NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT LIFE, yet be dictating to the rest of us. Anyone remember Jack Straw as president of the NUS? I do, and that is exactly what he did.
Given the authority, two things I would introduce.
1. Any phrase or comment which implies that the Government has money of its own would be banned, e.g. " The Government should spend money..." etc. To be replaced by "the Taxpayer should spend money...".
2. To stand for election as an MP, a candidate must be a minimum of 35 years of age, and have been in full time employment, for at least 10 years since leaving full-time education.
I am also unable to vote in the poll due to limited genuine options, but I am interested that no-one has commented as to why the Government has taken the step of increasing fees in this way. Looking at what drastic cuts have taken place in other areas, Defence, Arts etc., I have a strong suspicion that the Country's finances are in a far more parlous state than we have been told, and the reason we have not been told is to avoid affecting our international credit rating, and hence currency stabilty.
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What about increasing tuition fees a bit more and using it to ring-fence the police budget That would be a slap in the face for the protesters.
I don't think the argument about infiltration of the marches washes one bit. It's happened many times before and can't be hidden behind. If you want to march you need to ensure that untoward behaviour is negligible. That is going to mean working closer with the police IMHO.
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they defaced the monument of Churchill, if it wasn't for that man and his leadership they'd be speaking German, and walking in lederhosen. >:( >:(
most of these students havent got a clue all they worry about is which bar does the cheapest pint and no the police dont need investigating over these riots if you want to behave like they did then they deserve all what they got
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why should the police need investigating if anything i dont think they used enough force with these idiots...if you are not there you can not get hurt :y
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It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
;)Would you be a Philosophy or History major by any chance, Lizzie? :D
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
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An excellent commentary on this subject. The fault, it is argued, lies squarely with the attitude of the political elite.
Well worth reading. :y
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/the-rules-of-the-game-have-changed/
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An excellent commentary on this subject. The fault, it is argued, lies squarely with the attitude of the political elite.
Well worth reading. :y
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/the-rules-of-the-game-have-changed/
A well written piece, and, sadly, very true.
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I can agree with much of what the Mind has said - however - the following should be carefully considered;
However I can now envisage violence being justified as a means to an end – not in order to demand money from the government, but rather demanding the restoration of democracy and representative governance. Not violence to attack the police, law and order. But rather to remove those in the ruling class who abuse the law for their own ends and subvert our country, handing it over to foreign control from underneath us without mandate or permission.
In my experience those people who consider their cause sufficiently justified to use violence in an attempt to realise it invariably fail to appreciate that such violence will always bring them into conflict with the forces of law and order, so in this case would this not provide an immediate stumbling block?
As far as I see the Mind is suggesting that a rebellion against the duly elected government of the day (however piss-poor in our case) is the only way to rid the country of it.
I'm afraid that I see great danger here as, usually, when such people take up arms to do such a thing the result is far from desirable. A vacuum can develop in governance thereby opening to door to action by others waiting to exploit the breakdown in order. The temptation will always be for yet other people who disagree with the ‘new’ incumbents to resort to violence in an effort to advance their own cause.
I would suggest that, short of an open rebellion with all that it entails, we are stuck with what we have (however unsatisfactory) in the hope that people capable of putting this country and its people first are installed to govern by a democratic duly elected process.
The use of violence may seem to provide the answers sought in the Mind's piece - in theory - but I can say the reality of such violence, once released, is not an experience many would wish to have as this violence, by its nature, is often capricious and is incontrollable on any practical level.
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It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
;)Would you be a Philosophy or History major by any chance, Lizzie? :D
I am a History major student, also studying Politics that of course covers the Philosophers and ideology Debs :D :D :D ;)
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
;)Would you be a Philosophy or History major by any chance, Lizzie? :D
I am a History major student, also studying Politics that of course covers the Philosophers and ideology Debs :D :D :D ;)
aaaarrrrgggghh another student only joking lizzie ;D
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There's nothing wrong with a protest but when they start rioting then they need to be sorted out and made to pay for the damage/extra policing, just tot it up and add it onto next years fees ;D
Totally agree... The pictures of 'students' urinating on war memorials, swinging from the flags attatched to it, throwing bricks through windows and spraying graffitti on walls, is NOT acceptable..
I have no problem with the students demonstrating, just so long as they act within the law...
The statement by one so called protester that 'violence is the only way to get results' as printed in the Sun today, is basically a disgrace.....
Water cannons?? why not do as other country's do... call in the army, and shoot the Bl**dy lot!!!!!
Rant over.............. :-X
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It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
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oh ffs!!
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
You're in another world there!
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
You're in another world there!
Please enlighten me then Chris ;)
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
laymans terms please lizzie my heads spinning and my 2 brain cells have just fried thanks ;D ;D
-
It's a part of the deterioration in general standards within this country.
Encouraged by gutless politicians, indulgent parents and laissez faire 'enlightened' individuals all too prepared to spout their opinions without having the slightest intention (or ability) of being any constructive use whatever to the nation.
People were saying that Zulu in the 18th, 19th, and 20th century! ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is purely the perception of the contemporary population that produces those outpouring of sentiment and opinion! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It goes hand in hand with mans endevour to progress and create a better, fairer world, but always finding resistence from the natural ways of mankind with an instinct for self interest ;)
In terms of these demonstrations Lizzie I fail to see how the self-interest of those students who, quite rightly, wish to argue the case over fees can be advanced by participating in mayhem (or allowing their cause to be linked to it)
Mass demonstrations are prone to end in confusion, excessive behaviour, violence and a blurred message steered by those who use the legitimate demonstration for their own purposes.
Can it be said on foot of what we witnessed on Friday that this was indeed a noble cause and did the underlying desire for a better fairer world warrant this behaviour?
I would have thought it was just for the reasons I suggested that such circumstances have been allowed to occur, however even should those sentiments have been exhibited in the times you alluded to, the present generation have greater power to wreak destruction and unrest thanks to the technological and self-oriented (for many) age we live in.
The greater concern I have is beyond the truncated (for many) self-concern shown by people determined to get their way at all costs and more for the workable stability of the nation.
They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
laymans terms please lizzie my heads spinning and my 2 brain cells have just fried thanks ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Well in short man has always, and still has a natural instinct to fight for their rights, especially against the ruling classes and their system. The young, and yes naive uncouth, students of today are no different from the young, naive, uncouth, and impulsive men of yesterday year. ;) ;)
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thanks lizzie your an angel :y
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A considered and thoughtful appraisal of the eternal struggle twixt the 'downtrodden' and the status quo, Lizzie...... ;)
.....but you know, sometimes there`s no 'nobility of cause' at work; just a bunch of disaffected, anti-social yobs with a personal axe to grind under the 'protection' offered by a rent-a-mob`s day-out. :(
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A considered and thoughtful appraisal of the eternal struggle twixt the 'downtrodden' and the status quo, Lizzie...... ;)
.....but you know, sometimes there`s no 'nobility of cause' at work; just a bunch of disaffected, anti-social yobs with a personal axe to grind under the 'protection' offered by a rent-a-mob`s day-out. :(
Indeed Debs, they will always be with us! ;) ;) ;)
In war these people often become the heroes! ;)
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Booker points out that the money estimated to be saved by the increase in tuition fees will amount to £2.5bn by 2014. That's exactly the same amount that has been ring-fenced to give to developing countries for windmills and solar panels to fight global warming.
Just sayin'... ;) ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8196410/Student-fee-savings-will-fund-windmills-in-Africa.html#disqus_thread
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Students who profess to be intelligent educated people, behaving like this! They should try putting something into society instead of wanting more and more for nothing.
A news reporter was interviewing 3 students, and it was blatantly obvious they didn't have any grasp of current affairs or what they're actually protesting about. Had they bothered to understand, or did they just go on a protest for the fun of it?
Some other students were also chanting 'Give us our money back' or something similar! What money? What are they talking about?
As for that Aaron Porter (president of NUS). I bet all he's ever done is gone to uni, had a bloody good 3/4 years drinking, partying having a laugh, scraped through, perhaps gone on to do a masters because he likes the 'student lifestyle' then got in his current position. What the hell does he know? He's just a silly boy who hasn't grown up. Where is all the money coming from? Students have to take a hit like the rest of us.
Not to mention that degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on now, never mind the mickey mouse degrees! You couldn't make this up!!
And sadly, no question but that he is a future Minister. I predict that he will probably have, or get, a legal qualification, become a researcher in the H of C, and be an MP in 5 or 6 years, AND KNOW NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT LIFE, yet be dictating to the rest of us. Anyone remember Jack Straw as president of the NUS? I do, and that is exactly what he did.
Given the authority, two things I would introduce.
1. Any phrase or comment which implies that the Government has money of its own would be banned, e.g. " The Government should spend money..." etc. To be replaced by "the Taxpayer should spend money...".
2. To stand for election as an MP, a candidate must be a minimum of 35 years of age, and have been in full time employment, for at least 10 years since leaving full-time education.
I am also unable to vote in the poll due to limited genuine options, but I am interested that no-one has commented as to why the Government has taken the step of increasing fees in this way. Looking at what drastic cuts have taken place in other areas, Defence, Arts etc., I have a strong suspicion that the Country's finances are in a far more parlous state than we have been told, and the reason we have not been told is to avoid affecting our international credit rating, and hence currency stabilty.
Well as we live in a capitalist society, there is a cost to everything (capitalism isn't perfect but IMO is the best we have found so far). So there is a cost to education. Yes free information, but like I have said earlier, who pays the wages of the lecturers and buildings maintenance etc?
Students haven't put anything into society so why should they get anything out for free? Why should I as a taxpayer pay for their education? I went out into the real world of work, and it was very hard thanks very much. I didn't drink away 3 years at uni and want the public to pay for it.
Yes you can argue that we as a developed nation need the right people with the right skills and qualifications to help us remain competitive in the global market, but students going to university is also for their benefit. It has been shown that graduates earn more over a lifetime. Well then they should pay for their own education. If I choose to take a course now, to better myelf, will I have to pay the fees? You're damn right I will. So why shouldn't students?
I'm sick to death of bloody bums in this country who want something for nothing, especially when they haven't contributed anything.
As for you saying that the nations finances are in a worse state than what we are told; I believe that to be largely irrelevant. You want something, you pay the money.
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They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
Thank you as always Lizzie for a considered reply. :-* :-*
Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
That very telling fact is the one that negates the validity for change wheresoever it originates. It furthermore lays bare the notion that violence can always be a justifiable route to that change.
History teaches us much about circumstances relevant to their time and if we consider how violence was used during the course of many of those great events we can see that it seldom solves a grievance once and for all.
Violence and the human condition are both familiar bedfellows: That fact is unavoidable and our dalliance with it is done at our own peril.
In these current disturbances such a mass movement of people - many of whom have little experience of life and, by extension, the consequences of their actions done on that scale - are bound to misbehave in what really is a situation where anything can be done without sanction due to the very weight of those numbers.
What did the young man swinging from the Union Flag flying from one side of the Cenotaph hope to gain from his actions? Could that act be described as being legitimate and relevant to his grievance over the fees issue?
Such acts are generally carried out in the midst of these protests as many people dispense with caution because so many others are doing the same. That's one reason why I consider these demonstrations to be dangerous gatherings where the message for their existence is lost in the melee of a great number of people doing whatever they feel inclined to do.
In the end, and history shows us this, there have been many instances where violence has changed a situation - I would suggest on a temporary basis, in the overall sense - but the reality of the situation is that for the most part the status quo remains (even if under a different guise).
In my view these demonstrations will not shape government thinking to any great degree. What they are doing is destabilising public order and opening the door to individuals who have a more sinister agenda to practice.
Sensible discourse about justifiable grievance is one thing, but wanton destruction and completely irresponsible behaviour from people who should know better – as a result of sound modern education - is another thing entirely.
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Thank you as always Lizzie for a considered reply. :-* :-*
Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
That very telling fact is the one that negates the validity for change wheresoever it originates. It furthermore lays bare the notion that violence can always be a justifiable route to that change.
History teaches us much about circumstances relevant to their time and if we consider how violence was used during the course of many of those great events we can see that it seldom solves a grievance once and for all.
Violence and the human condition are both familiar bedfellows: That fact is unavoidable and our dalliance with it is done at our own peril.
In these current disturbances such a mass movement of people - many of whom have little experience of life and, by extension, the consequences of their actions done on that scale - are bound to misbehave in what really is a situation where anything can be done without sanction due to the very weight of those numbers.
What did the young man swinging from the Union Flag flying from one side of the Cenotaph hope to gain from his actions? Could that act be described as being legitimate and relevant to his grievance over the fees issue?
Such acts are generally carried out in the midst of these protests as many people dispense with caution because so many others are doing the same. That's one reason why I consider these demonstrations to be dangerous gatherings where the message for their existence is lost in the melee of a great number of people doing whatever they feel inclined to do.
In the end, and history shows us this, there have been many instances where violence has changed a situation - I would suggest on a temporary basis, in the overall sense - but the reality of the situation is that for the most part the status quo remains (even if under a different guise).
In my view these demonstrations will not shape government thinking to any great degree. What they are doing is destabilising public order and opening the door to individuals who have a more sinister agenda to practice.
Sensible discourse about justifiable grievance is one thing, but wanton destruction and completely irresponsible behaviour from people who should know better – as a result of sound modern education - is another thing entirely.
Allegedly not in a fit state of mind. The chap was the son of multi-millionaire Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour. ::) ::)
http://www.thenewcurrent.com/2010/12/11/student-protest-2010-pink-floyd-star-son-charlie-gilmour-is-the-cenotaph-attacker/
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And that young mans mum is extremely unhappy with his actions. I reckon he is crapping himself. ;)
His Dad is rightly very famous for making outstanding music, the son is now imfamous for being a dickhead. ::)
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I've only scanned through so forgive me if my point's been made already. On one side i see the students point that previous generations (including my siblings) have benefitted from free (grant) uni education whereas they are to be left with a huge debt. However things change & we can't afford that anymore & i believe they only have to pay a small monthly amount back once they start earning over £21k. Not too much to ask?
In the late 70's when i left school only a few went onto uni. Nowadays it does seem a much higher percentage do & to read relatively pointless courses...you can do a degree in keeping a golf course!!!! We have too many going to uni now, it's nothing special, like attending art college or 6th form. Folk can only make a career out of being "educated" before they have to start earning & paying into the economy. At the moment the balance is wrong. We have too many students & not enough workers, hence no jobs for graduates & no sympathy for the protesters, even the peaceful ones. Most of them shouldn't even be students, they should be at work then we might get our industry back.
I accept the bad behaviour was down to the masked cowardly minority & to urinate on Winston Churchill's statue or graffiti the Cenotaph is unspeakably vile but think the root of the problem is most of these youngsters should be at work not uni. We need to redress the balance & most of them don't need to be there in the first place.
Too many chiefs?????
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Completely agree Guy. :y
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They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem. This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time. In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken. That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!
But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789. Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48. All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day. Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives. The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.
These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all. In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918. The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.
Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.
Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies. It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.
And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on? Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.
Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price. But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon. ;) ;)
So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police. Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us. Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
Thank you as always Lizzie for a considered reply. :-* :-*
Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.
Sensible discourse about justifiable grievance is one thing, but wanton destruction and completely irresponsible behaviour from people who should know better – as a result of sound modern education - is another thing entirely.
I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.
The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!! That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (todays ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be stong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.
Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created. The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature. I will not hammer my personal favourite philospher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philospher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits. Good will come out of the evil. ;) ;)
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I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.
The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!! That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (todays ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be stong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.
Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created. The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature. I will not hammer my personal favourite philospher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philospher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits. Good will come out of the evil. ;) ;)
Good will come out of the evil.
I'll gladly join you in that hope Lizzie. 8-)
The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature.
That is why a sound family base, a firm but fair social structure, a competent relevant educational process and professional imaginative government is crucial to the advancement of our society.
The present state of the country shows that there is something wrong with the natural progression of our young people being taught the value of respecting other people and the institutions of state.
This failure in many cases comes from the breakdown of the conventional parent/child relationship and a society that values little other than the satisfaction of immediate desires.
Although you have said (rightly) that this circle has been described from time immemorial, what makes the difference this time around is that there are many more people in the world - a world where there are few barriers to cushion the effects of disturbance and a world where many people can be motivated by remote means.
The end result in my mind at least is a world where the immediacy of information - without understanding the full import of it - conspires to allow great numbers of people to act in circumstances, the inevitable consequences of which, allows undesirable things to happen.
The more this happens, the more it is allowed to happen and the more we become ambivalent to it then it is more likely for good to ultimately lose the battle with evil.
The following is a great example of what happens when a strong family unit produces a child who takes full advantage of sound education to ultimately shine in practical academia.
It is the breath-taking lecture given by a 47 year old man who had only months to live at the time.
At 76 minutes long it may be too much for many people who stumble across is but it is well worth watching for its inspirational content and as an example of the true worth of education.
http://www.wimp.com/lastlecture/
http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/
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It's the entire system that needs an overhaul - from primary education upwards - where teaching standards are poor, discipline doesn't exist, and exams are as difficult as a Noddy book.
50/60% of over 18 year olds in university education? - don't make me laugh! Most of them don't have that sort of brains.
University education should be free and available to all from whatever background on the basis of merit via the route of difficult exams that sort out the best qualified. University education should be limited to the real subjects and to (at a guess) the top 10/15% of educational achievers.
The rest should go to work and further their education at night school or college.
Of course we all know that getting so many into university is a political ploy to soften the unemployment figures.
Employers should take their share of the blame as well, as they insist of degrees for postions that patently don't need one - and they should also invest in their employees and fund their further education (day or night college) at the same time as teaching them the job while they're working in it.
In many ways - university education is everything that is wrong wit this country - people leave university with some high flying academic qualification that walks them into a top job - which they then proceed to cock up as they have no experieence of work or life. For an example look at your top coppers, top officials in pubic services etc etc etc.
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I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.
The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!! That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (today's ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be strong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.
Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created. The students are born of us and are testament to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature. I will not hammer my personal favourite philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philosopher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits. Good will come out of the evil. ;) ;)
The present state of the country shows that there is something wrong with the natural progression of our young people being taught the value of respecting other people and the institutions of state.
This failure in many cases comes from the breakdown of the conventional parent/child relationship and a society that values little other than the satisfaction of immediate desires.
The end result in my mind at least is a world where the immediacy of information - without understanding the full import of it - conspires to allow great numbers of people to act in circumstances, the inevitable consequences of which, allows undesirable things to happen.
The more this happens, the more it is allowed to happen and the more we become ambivalent to it then it is more likely for good to ultimately lose the battle with evil.
I think Zulu there is common agreement between the two of us on many of the factors concerning the modern age and its evils, along with its great advantages. However, I will touch on your comments and expand my viewpoint:
Why is it "natural progression" for the young people to be taught respect for the institutions of state Zulu?
That frame of mind, with the unquestioning stance of the people towards the establishment and its works, respecting God, King and Country, received a hefty blow with the Great War, where by 1917/18 the common people were being to grasp how that misplaced faith had cost them, along with their loved ones, a terrible price due to imperial greed that was significantly borne by the young. In more modern times the masses have learnt that their 'Lords and Masters' are no better than them, allowing industry to be wrecked with thousands of jobs lost, with little loyalty for the working classes, and a penchant for fraud and lies. The young, who have been cast aside in these forlorn communities should have respect? For this?
During the 1950s the governments of the day encouraged widespread consumerism of a population that had been through the hell of total war, and believed in make do and mend, with only purchasing what could be afforded that very day. They had been brutalised, families wrecked, and communities shattered. Now the 'modern' government stated "we have never had it so good" ( Harold Macmillan) and effectively stated go forth and spend. Spend they did throughout the 1960s, 1970s,1980s and 1990s, with credit being readily available, and a completely tolerant society where anything goes! The old values went, sacrificed to a new government sponsored world of "all is possible, TODAY"!! Now today we are all faced with the consequences of those decades which we have all been party to, and we wonder why the youth of today have little respect for our values?
The young students have grown up on this history, and we are surprised that the old loyalties and respect have faded?! Why should they have respect for a 'plastic' world of demigods and falseness at all levels of society. Who can they look up to and respect? Celebrities???
If there had been a immediacy of information during 1914-18 the war would have ended speedily, with tens of thousands of lives saved, as the masses protested against the excesses of the King, General Haig, and Country. With modern immediacy of information during the 1930s perhaps the truth of developments within Germany would have been more widely recognised and acted upon, Suez would not have taken place, and the Vietnam War would have been halted in its tracks sooner than it eventually was by media exposure. Full immediacy of information perhaps would have allowed for the masses to know the complete truth about their MP's, and would inhibit the lies and deception for instance as the students have rudely learnt!
No, "immediacy of information" is the one hope to control our political Lords and Masters, with complete transparency gained. The young of today have been 'corrupted' as we have, but maybe the young of tomorrow will be brought up with new values of loyalty and respect for the elements of life that matter. That though is down to you, I and all living adults today.
Out of evil will come good! That is something we can be sure of!
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I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.
With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.
Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.
When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.
Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.
Nevermind, who's for tea?
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Unfortunately the cost of the repairs for the damage is never paid by the yobs who have had a great day out with little chance of being caught.
Me, I'd put snipers on the roof and let them take a leg shot at anyone wielding a brick or metal pole and inflicting damage on other people or property whilst having the protection of a crowd of people between them and the police.
Failing that i would at least put blue food dye and microdots into the watercannon to allow the police a chance of tracking them down.
Martin
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I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.
With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.
Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.
When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.
Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.
Nevermind, who's for tea?
I wish I could disagree with you on at least some of those points Geoff, but very sadly I cant. :'(
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I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.
With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.
Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.
When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.
Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.
Nevermind, who's for tea?
I wish I could disagree with you on at least some of those points Geoff, but very sadly I cant. :'(
You wouldn't believe I'm a patriot after writing that would you?!?!
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On the contrary, its very obvious that you are. :y
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I've had to continue this here Lizzie as I couldn't quote on your post due to lack of space. :-*
Why is it "natural progression" for the young people to be taught respect for the institutions of state Zulu?
Why should those institutions not be respected Lizzie, they embrace more than the government of the day after all and one would hope that, if young people are expected to become useful members of society, they would be capable of dealing with the less desirable aspects of state policy in a constructive manner through understanding and not hostility.
That frame of mind, with the unquestioning stance of the people towards the establishment and its works, respecting God, King and Country, received a hefty blow with the Great War, where by 1917/18 the common people were being to grasp how that misplaced faith had cost them, along with their loved ones, a terrible price due to imperial greed that was significantly borne by the young.
Of course it’s right to question government or indeed any other state body however the desire for answers should be based on the intention to go forward in a constructive manner without attempting to cause destruction on the way. If an attempt is made to bring down state institutions by violence what remains to implement necessary change.
It’s all very well shouting for change but unless that change comes in a progressive and constructive way chaos ensues. From what I see many young people simply do not have the capability or capacity to force change based on a reasoned assessment of the national situation. (in this case)
Now today we are all faced with the consequences of those decades which we have all been party to, and we wonder why the youth of today have little respect for our values?
But surely most young people today inhabit those values quite easily, they seem to be quite at ease with the live now pay later philosophy - for example are many of them prepared for their financial future by saving money to name but one thing?
There seems little justification to be made for those who have benefited from the start they have been given by their family and society in general only to complain when they are expected to function in a responsible manner and, in the case of the student fees, pay more for their education which after all is intended to enable them build a life for themselves and their own families.
Who can they look up to and respect? Celebrities???
Now you're getting close to why I say this country, in particular, is in trouble as a lot of young people seem to be doing just that.
If there had been a immediacy of information during 1914-18 the war would have ended speedily
But would it have, we have recourse to information as it's happening thanks to the internet and 24hr broadcast news among other things - has that helped to draw the Afghan war to a quick conclusion, did the realisation of how quickly information can be disseminated prevent the parliamentary scandals? No, in this regard the immediacy of information does not guarantee any beneficial result.
The immediacy of information I spoke of related to this highly technical age where a mass of people can be motivated quite effortlessly to follow an agenda and, more importantly, how many of those people will act in concert without necessarily considering the full consequences of their actions - as perhaps many of those who demonstrated on Thursday did.
The young of today have been 'corrupted' as we have, but maybe the young of tomorrow will be brought up with new values of loyalty and respect for the elements of life that matter. That though is down to you, I and all living adults today.
The trouble is that the young of tomorrow will be under the influence of the young of today Lizzie – rather like those students (and others) we witnessed putting their constructive and considered opinions across to an astonished nation last Thursday.
As adults all we can do at the moment is to make our experiences known to the present young in the hope that they will be able to develop a mature responsible outlook to help prepare them for that eventuality. A large part of my experience tells me that violence does not work in the end and, when that violence engaged through mass protest with a view to forcing change, it seldom produces a stable result.
The way to alter any unsatisfactory situation is by constructive change not by destructive means.
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Methinks this thread has drifted off topic? Strip it all down, do away with the waffle & all you're left with is too many students with too much attitude & nothing constructive to do because there's too many of them & most, (not all) are workshy so attend one course after another that involve the least lectures & will never amount to anything.
GO TO WORK!!!
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Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.
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Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.
It's a brave thing to do, good luck to her!
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Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.
wish her good luck :y
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Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.
Now that is worth doing & best wishes to her. :y
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Thanks. :y.........the worry for me is the fact that despite the fact she is 5ft 1 inch and looks about 15 she is going off to Australia by herself from January until September. A bit too brave for my liking. :o
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Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.
I've only just arrived at that stage! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, though, I can understand your concerns. She was, is, and always will be, your Little Princess. :y
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Very true Nick. :y :-[
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82 votes and only 13 supporting the soapy students to be honest im surprised it was that high
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looking in the results , we are a minority here ;D
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get a job instead of sponging then they wouldn't have time to riot >:(
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It's the entire system that needs an overhaul - from primary education upwards - where teaching standards are poor, discipline doesn't exist, and exams are as difficult as a Noddy book.
50/60% of over 18 year olds in university education? - don't make me laugh! Most of them don't have that sort of brains.
University education should be free and available to all from whatever background on the basis of merit via the route of difficult exams that sort out the best qualified. University education should be limited to the real subjects and to (at a guess) the top 10/15% of educational achievers.
The rest should go to work and further their education at night school or college.
Of course we all know that getting so many into university is a political ploy to soften the unemployment figures.
Employers should take their share of the blame as well, as they insist of degrees for postions that patently don't need one - and they should also invest in their employees and fund their further education (day or night college) at the same time as teaching them the job while they're working in it.
In many ways - university education is everything that is wrong wit this country - people leave university with some high flying academic qualification that walks them into a top job - which they then proceed to cock up as they have no experieence of work or life. For an example look at your top coppers, top officials in pubic services etc etc etc.
Spot on. :y
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Why should those institutions not be respected Lizzie, they embrace more than the government of the day after all and one would hope that, if young people are expected to become useful members of society, they would be capable of dealing with the less desirable aspects of state policy in a constructive manner through understanding and not hostility.
Rarely do the institutions not attract criticism, and history has unfortunately taught mankind that to seek major change against the establishment and its policies takes committed protest, which has resulted in violence when nothing changes.
That frame of mind, with the unquestioning stance of the people towards the establishment and its works, respecting God, King and Country, received a hefty blow with the Great War, where by 1917/18 the common people were being to grasp how that misplaced faith had cost them, along with their loved ones, a terrible price due to imperial greed that was significantly borne by the young.
Of course it’s right to question government or indeed any other state body however the desire for answers should be based on the intention to go forward in a constructive manner without attempting t[/highlight][/highlight]o cause destruction on the way. If an attempt is made to bring down state institutions by violence what remains to implement necessary change.
It is not necessarily an attempt to bring down the institutions, but an real commitment to change that can escalate into violence by the minority with a penchant for such direct action, which has been witnessed throughout history. That constant threat of 'Revolution' has actually led to the clever and astute governments of the day to gradually give the protesters just enough to meet their demands to stave off a full bloody revolution. Without the protests initially (say of the Chartists of 1838-48) we would not enjoy so many of the rights we enjoy today. We would still be peasants without voting rights, and giving our all to the all powerful Church and aristocracy
From what I see many young people simply do not have the capability or capacity to force change based on a reasoned assessment of the national situation. (in this case)
You underestimate Zulu the ability of the young to grasp and understand complex political situatiions, and desire to participate in society to the full. Singerly they may not win against their wiser elders, but together they can force change, and certainly via the ballot box. They certainly will hit the Lib-Dems heavily at the next general election over their broken promises, which has taught a whole generation not to trust any politician or have respect for so called "elders and betters".
Now today we are all faced with the consequences of those decades which we have all been party to, and we wonder why the youth of today have little respect for our values?
But surely most young people today inhabit those values quite easily, they seem to be quite at ease with the live now pay later philosophy
Exactly Zulu, that is what this country's politicians have produced since the 1960s. But now they are having to learn different rules in the adult world!
Who can they look up to and respect? Celebrities???
Now you're getting close to why I say this country, in particular, is in trouble as a lot of young people seem to be doing just that.
Agreed! So we as a society must try and change that
If there had been a immediacy of information during 1914-18 the war would have ended speedily
But would it have, we have recourse to information as it's happening thanks to the internet and 24hr broadcast news among other things - has that helped to draw the Afghan war to a quick conclusion
Oh yes, if the British (and German) people had fully known on television screens that we "lost 60,000 men yesterday, and today we lost another 60,000, for a few yards of land under the policy of General Haig" it would have come to an end. The Afghanistan War is by comparison a tea party, but even so growing constanation about the losses and purpose of the action has produced a clear Government policy of bringing them all home in 2015.
The young of today have been 'corrupted' as we have, but maybe the young of tomorrow will be brought up with new values of loyalty and respect for the elements of life that matter.
The trouble is that the young of tomorrow will be under the influence of the young of today Lizzie – rather like those students (and others) we witnessed putting their constructive and considered opinions across to an astonished nation last Thursday.
Most will grow up to to upstanding citizens, just like we have Zulu!
A large part of my experience tells me that violence does not work in the end and, when that violence engaged through mass protest with a view to forcing change, it seldom produces a stable result.
The way to alter any unsatisfactory situation is by constructive change not by destructive means.
Tell that to the Chartists who brought about eventual change, or the trade unionists within their ranks who eventually won the legal right to exist, or the Suffergettes who won the right to vote via direct action. Throughout history our future has been developed around war and violence, such is mankinds natural ways. Could WW2 been settled without extreme violence?
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Rarely do the institutions not attract criticism, and history has unfortunately taught mankind that to seek major change against the establishment and its policies takes committed protest, which has resulted in violence when nothing changes.
Aah but that does not qualify violence as the necessary motivator for change Lizzie as violence is never a one time deal - so the efficacy of it really must be questioned
It is not necessarily an attempt to bring down the institutions, but an real commitment to change that can escalate into violence by the minority with a penchant for such direct action, which has been witnessed throughout history. That constant threat of 'Revolution' has actually led to the clever and astute governments of the day to gradually give the protesters just enough to meet their demands to stave off a full bloody revolution. Without the protests initially (say of the Chartists of 1838-48) we would not enjoy so many of the rights we enjoy today. We would still be peasants without voting rights, and giving our all to the all powerful Church and aristocracy
The trouble is Lizzie many people who are predisposed to come out onto the streets to protest student fees (in this case), global financial arrangements, green issues and so on do seem to have the desire to bring the 'establishment' down, as they perceive it as being the prime mover in maintaining matters surrounding such issues.
Constant revolution will always come about through better education better technology as so on. Such change is inevitable, it doesn't have to be generated through violence - yes in history many changes have occurred as a result of specific violence but there can be no direct correlation that suggests violence was the sole reason.
Another problem lies with the state of perceived freedoms and equality open to many people around the globe today. The great power of church and state may have dwindled in relation to what it was but the masses have new masters in control of power now and while we in the West have a degree of freedom, we will never have the unfettered freedom that comes with true equality as we have simply switched one set of masters for another.
So there may have been change wrought by violence at various points in history but can it be said with conviction that this change would not have occurred as part of the normal social arc of a maturing society.
You underestimate Zulu the ability of the young to grasp and understand complex political situatiions, and desire to participate in society to the full. Singerly they may not win against their wiser elders, but together they can force change, and certainly via the ballot box. They certainly will hit the Lib-Dems heavily at the next general election over their broken promises, which has taught a whole generation not to trust any politician or have respect for so called "elders and betters".
Your confidence in the ability of young people to exist in the way you mention is admirable Lizzie and I, for one, would wish that to be true but there seems to be a disturbing indication of evidence to the contrary - judging by the quality of opinion expressed by many of those involved in the recent disturbances - and these young people have had the benefit of a supposedly sound modern education.
Many young people, irrespective of education, live in the here and now, stimulated by their peers and the environment they exist in - that’s what being young is all about. Therefore, by extension, many are not thinking about weightier matters or other things connected with the strategic direction of the society they inhabit. Yes many will come to realise that it's time to shape-up or ship-out but that comes about through the time and tested method of growing and learning through natural development, violence isn't necessary in this process.
Oh yes, if the British (and German) people had fully known on television screens that we "lost 60,000 men yesterday, and today we lost another 60,000, for a few yards of land under the policy of General Haig" it would have come to an end. The Afghanistan War is by comparison a tea party, but even so growing constanation about the losses and purpose of the action has produced a clear Government policy of bringing them all home in 2015.
Well that point has to be debatable Lizzie as one can't apply the criteria of how this society is capable of adjudicating such matters to any other point in history as the people and social/political environment are vastly different.
Insofar as Afghanistan is concerned (as events in theatre seem to suggest that this conflict remains active) I seem to remember the then Defence Secretary assuring the nation that the first troop contingent destined there would be able to complete the mission 'without a shot being fired' so you’ll forgive me if I doubt that this timetable is the definitive one. The regional structures exist in too volatile an environment to believe that success or otherwise will fall there anytime soon.
Most will grow up to to upstanding citizens, just like we have Zulu!
Does that negate the need for such violence then Lizzie?
Tell that to the Chartists who brought about eventual change, or the trade unionists within their ranks who eventually won the legal right to exist, or the Suffergettes who won the right to vote via direct action. Throughout history our future has been developed around war and violence, such is mankinds natural ways. Could WW2 been settled without extreme violence?
Iniquitous inequality remains throughout the world irrespective of what has gone before. Mankind has failed to seize the opportunity presented by such violent upheaval - we couldn't have in any case because it's in our nature not to.
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from Lizzie
"It is not necessarily an attempt to bring down the institutions, but an real commitment to change that can escalate into violence by the minority with a penchant for such direct action, which has been witnessed throughout history. That constant threat of 'Revolution' has actually led to the clever and [size=12]astute governments of the day to gradually give the protesters just enough to meet their demands to stave off a full bloody revolution.[/size] Without the protests initially (say of the Chartists of 1838-48) we would not enjoy so many of the rights we enjoy today. [size=12]We would still be peasants without voting rights, and giving our all to the all powerful Church and aristocracy[/size]"
:y :y :y :y
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for Lizzie and Zulu:
dont know how to tell exactly , let me try:
young people, students mostly are not tied up with the responsibilities like children, job, bills etc etc..
and their ties to community is different than the elder\olders.. so they dont have much to be afraid or loose..
;)
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for Lizzie and Zulu:
dont know how to tell exactly , let me try:
young people, students mostly are not tied up with the responsibilities like children, job, bills etc etc..
and their ties to community is different than the elder\olders.. so they dont have much to be afraid or loose..
;)
Exactly right Cem, and that is why the young have been historically at the forefront of rebellion and revolution, with in particular young males, surging with strong testorone levels and a desire for 'justice', to fight in war, war, and not engage greatly in jaw, jaw!
Young bloods is not a fantasy, but a fact, and for instance line up for a good fight before understanding what they are getting involved in. Like the young teenage, and often below age, recruits who were so keen to fight the Hun in 1914, or would join the Royal Navy to fight the French before the Battle of Trafalgar.
It is an old emotion, going back in time, that of course was most famous with the Vikings; dying in battle was the greatest honour, and would guarantee an afterlife in Valhalla.
The "British" of today have the blood line of those Norsemen either via the Vikings or from the Normans, so you could say the young have it in their genes to do battle and seek honour. We also have Germanic blood in our nations peoples, which again gives us a keeness for battle when young.
Only battle teaches them that there actually is no glory in total war.
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for Lizzie and Zulu:
dont know how to tell exactly , let me try:
young people, students mostly are not tied up with the responsibilities like children, job, bills etc etc..
and their ties to community is different than the elder\olders.. so they dont have much to be afraid or loose..
;)
Exactly right Cem, and that is why the young have been historically at the forefront of rebellion and revolution, with in particular young males, surging with strong testorone levels and a desire for 'justice', to fight in war, war, and not engage greatly in jaw, jaw!
Young bloods is not a fantasy, but a fact, and for instance line up for a good fight before understanding what they are getting involved in. Like the young teenage, and often below age, recruits who were so keen to fight the Hun in 1914, or would join the Royal Navy to fight the French before the Battle of Trafalgar.
It is an old emotion, going back in time, that of course was most famous with the Vikings; dying in battle was the greatest honour, and would guarantee an afterlife in Valhalla.
The "British" of today have the blood line of those Norsemen either via the Vikings or from the Normans, so you could say the young have it in their genes to do battle and seek honour. We also have Germanic blood in our nations peoples, which again gives us a keeness for battle when young.
Only battle teaches them that there actually is no glory in total war.
:y