Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Gaffers on 21 December 2010, 07:45:12
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Tried to get out yesterday but with more cancelled flights the prospects were very poor indeed, not a single emplyee got within a sniff of getting on a flight. Some have been waiting since Friday to get out. They have put on a 747 for the next few days to clear some of the backlog so we will try again tomorrow and just spend today relaxing :y
The stories I heard about how BAA were chucking people elderly, young and frail out on to the street in to temps as low as -10C really peeed me off. Plus there the snow there is not that deep, I got there and expected to see over a foot, infact there is only 3-4 inches at most. Fights, scuffles, people barging through others without any consideration... it truely was the human condition at it's worst :'(
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theres been no snow here since saturday, i cant see myself what reason that heathrow has not cleared the 2nd runway, the rds here have no snow on at all. i get the impression that people dont want to do anything in this weather rather than they cannot doing anything.
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BAA struggle to maintain smooth working airport in good conditions, I am guessing their only JCB is out of diesel ::)
I can't see their argument about it not being frequent enough to warrent cost, amount of money lost during this and last winter is surely enough to buy some proper snow ploughs?
Chicago have 100's of the damn things! Foot of snow over night there is no problem
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Total nightmare from what I've seen on the news, surely the flights back log will take a while to clear as well, the longer it goes on.
Totally unprepared for adverse weather. Did I hear they have just spent 12 million on the latest snow clearing machinery? And that Gatwick have cleared their runways in a fraction of the time....?
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Fights, scuffles, people barging through others without any consideration... it truely was the human condition at it's worst :'(
Sad and frustrating news about the delay G :(
Regarding the quoted text you are of course correct, sometimes in adversity the self-oriented side of human nature comes unpleasantly to the fore.
However I'm gratified and indeed reassured to learn (from BAA amongst others) that lessons have been learned from all of this. :y
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i have heard nothing going out of heathrow since i got up at 8am. its very quiet.
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They said they can't use too much salt as it's abrasive for jet engines, so I presume it has to be done manually, so to speak. :-/
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i have heard nothing going out of heathrow since i got up at 8am. its very quiet.
Planes are leaving but the biggest problem is having planes there to leave, not as many as normal can get in as there is only 1 runway open.
BAA were boasting in Sky News yesterday that, between it's 6 airports, they invested £6m in snow clearing technology this year. But when you look at the big picture and it's 250m passengers thats 2.4p of investment per passenger.
What really gets my goat is the people responsible for managing out infrastructure call this an exceptional event. It's the 3rd time this year it has snowed. If you were going to learn from anything it should have been done in January, practised 2 weeks ago and perfected this week. The Ash cloud was a unprecedented event, if it has snowed before then 4 inches of snow is not unprecedented!
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Totally agree G. It's been open way long enough to experience plenty of snow in it's history. They should have a plan well sussed by now. No excuse! ...and then to abuse the customers they have failed, by ejecting them into the cold is unforgivable.
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Surely as the salt is abrasive to the engines wouldn't some system of under-runway heating be a more viable option?
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I think the disruption at Heathrow in particular is unfortunate. As ever we can think of loads of ways they could improve but it boils down to poor planning and an unwillingness to spend money. Why should BAA (owned by a Spanish company- the clues are there) spend money on making sure everything works?
I had to smile when they wheeled out their spokesman - young fellow with unkempt long hair! Trotted out the usual guff.
What is totally outrageous is the treatment of thousands of "stranded" folk. Britain is supposed to be a 1st world country but it all looked 3rd world to me. Where are the managers of the plane companies and the BAA managers.? Where are the gigantic screens with up to date information?
For BAA to say no flights out or in to Heathrow and for the airlines to tell folk to turn up is bordering on criminal activity................
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In fairness, LHR is not the only airport to have suffered. At one stage Brussels had to cancel all flights as they ran out of de-icer!
Additionally, apart from the aprons having to be cleared of snow, each aircraft has to swept of snow and then de-icer applied. The aircraft MUST be airborne within one hour of that application or it has to be done again.
I'm not saying that BAA has handled the situation well by any means, but it is a bit too easy for armchair folk to forget that LHR is one of the biggest airports in the world...and also that they get their pre-season advice (I believe) from the Met Office, who seem to have thought that this winter would be mild, in keeping with their AGW faith. ;)
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In fairness, LHR is not the only airport to have suffered. At one stage Brussels had to cancel all flights as they ran out of de-icer!
Additionally, apart from the aprons having to be cleared of snow, each aircraft has to swept of snow and then de-icer applied. The aircraft MUST be airborne within one hour of that application or it has to be done again.
I'm not saying that BAA has handled the situation well by any means, but it is a bit too easy for armchair folk to forget that LHR is one of the biggest airports in the world...and also that they get their pre-season advice (I believe) from the Met Office, who seem to have thought that this winter would be mild, in keeping with their AGW faith. ;)
You are too easy going Nick, ast the end of the day Britain is a 1st world country with the latest technology and so on.. How hard can it be to run an airport PROPERLY or run a railway service PROPERLY. Wrong sort of ice, too cold, wrong kind of cold etc etc. The bottom line is they are run as businesses with little thought for customers when the going gets tough (until the public see what is going on). Lets hope the flying public boycott BAA airporets in future.
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for millions and millions of people who are not going anywhere by air and who are not expecting guests to arrive by air this is just a blip. costs of gearing up to exceptional conditions are disproportionate to short term flak.
Unfortunate for lots of people - yes - but keep it in proportion.
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I have been snowed in in Munich (not renowned for being a well-run airport) and in the US in various places (some where snow is as rare as here if not more so). In all cases the backlog disappeared as soon as it stopped snowing and there was plenty of help finding accommodation for those stranded.
Strikes me that BAA don't give a toss, TBH.
Regarding de-icing, it's easy. You park up a de-icing rig on the taxiway as the aircraft turn onto the runway and de-ice them as they reach the front of the queue. Having said that, it's been above zero for 24 hours, so I can't see icing being a problem any more.
I do hope you manage to get away eventually.
Kevin
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My understanding is that the delays and cancellations are due to the snow that has fallen, which is described as an exceptional event.
I would class an airplane catching fire as a pretty exceptional event too. Does BAA adopt the same attitude in having the resources to cope with such a situation?
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Total nightmare from what I've seen on the news, surely the flights back log will take a while to clear as well, the longer it goes on.
Totally unprepared for adverse weather. Did I hear they have just spent 12 million on the latest snow clearing machinery? And that Gatwick have cleared their runways in a fraction of the time....?
I think there's still only one at Gatwick
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I have been snowed in in Munich (not renowned for being a well-run airport) and in the US in various places (some where snow is as rare as here if not more so). In all cases the backlog disappeared as soon as it stopped snowing and there was plenty of help finding accommodation for those stranded.
Strikes me that BAA don't give a toss, TBH.
Regarding de-icing, it's easy. You park up a de-icing rig on the taxiway as the aircraft turn onto the runway and de-ice them as they reach the front of the queue. Having said that, it's been above zero for 24 hours, so I can't see icing being a problem any more.
I do hope you manage to get away eventually.
Kevin
Works that way in Oslo!!
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Ok, trying again in the morning. If you dont hear from me then I have been sucessful :y
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Hope you meet with success G. :y
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Has he gone? Can we all talk about him now? ;D ;D
I was listening to Radio 2 this morning - someone called in who is an ex-RAF man and was recalling the story of how they de-iced runways back in the day..
Two jet engines strapped to the back of the fuel bowser. ;D Apparently the only problem being that if you pointed them too far down, you melted the tarmac ;D ;D
(And of course my mind has now gone blank, and I can't remember the aircraft the engines came from.. I'm thinking it was Lightning-era)
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Has he gone? Can we all talk about him now? ;D ;D
I was listening to Radio 2 this morning - someone called in who is an ex-RAF man and was recalling the story of how they de-iced runways back in the day..
Two jet engines strapped to the back of the fuel bowser. ;D Apparently the only problem being that if you pointed them too far down, you melted the tarmac ;D ;D
(And of course my mind has now gone blank, and I can't remember the aircraft the engines came from.. I'm thinking it was Lightning-era)
A mate of mine from the Gliding club posted a picture of a similar device from his days at the a while back. Engines looked like Goblin / Ghost / Derwent centrifugal types IIRC.
I guess they probably bolted-on whatever was lying around and serviceable but obsolete / life expired for a non-critical role like that.
Kevin
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If that is the case, why not use an old 747? - Pimp it out a bit, lower it and put it on some alloys, with winter tyres 8-)
Just bumble about in that, sure one thats no longer air-worthy would not go for much either (in relative terms)
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If that is the case, why not use an old 747? - Pimp it out a bit, lower it and put it on some alloys, with winter tyres 8-)Just bumble about in that, sure one thats no longer air-worthy would not go for much either (in relative terms)
Whilst I am sure it would work, I can just see BAA..... First they would have to wait till the next board meeting to discuss it, then a feasibility study would need to be done, then a project plan drawn up and then the lot scrapped when someone said "what about elf and safety?"
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Hope you meet with success G. :y
It appears that he may well have done so - well done G.
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If that is the case, why not use an old 747? - Pimp it out a bit, lower it and put it on some alloys, with winter tyres 8-)Just bumble about in that, sure one thats no longer air-worthy would not go for much either (in relative terms)
Whilst I am sure it would work, I can just see BAA..... First they would have to wait till the next board meeting to discuss it, then a feasibility study would need to be done, then a project plan drawn up and then the lot scrapped when someone said "what about elf and safety?"
.. then negotiate the budget for the couple of tons of fuel that would be required every time you taxi it out to the runway, and a couple of tons to taxi it back again, plus a couple more tons to taxi it along the main runway clearing snow. More tons if you have to open the throttles a bit more to shift the snow.
You thought an Omega was thirsty? ;D
Kevin
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In fairness, LHR is not the only airport to have suffered. At one stage Brussels had to cancel all flights as they ran out of de-icer!
Additionally, apart from the aprons having to be cleared of snow, each aircraft has to swept of snow and then de-icer applied. The aircraft MUST be airborne within one hour of that application or it has to be done again.
I'm not saying that BAA has handled the situation well by any means, but it is a bit too easy for armchair folk to forget that LHR is one of the biggest airports in the world...and also that they get their pre-season advice (I believe) from the Met Office, who seem to have thought that this winter would be mild, in keeping with their AGW faith. ;)
theres not a weather forecast in existence that is 100% reliable, its an educated guess - look at the weather data F1 teams use - they cant tell where and when its going to rain in the next 5mins let alone 5months :D
for my tuppence, i reckon we'll see more extremes of weather (as NASA and the MetOffice predicts) - better get used to it :y
there was a Norwegian Airport official on the radio said it took them approx 4mins to clear a runway after a heavy snowfall at Oslo and they hire 30-40 extra bodies in winter purely to clear snow, now I'd suggest they have a plan in place to quickly mobilise whats needed in the event of snow, but I also think you've got to look at Heathrow being too busy for its own good, UK isn't that big a country so why not spread the load around a bit? :y
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In fairness, LHR is not the only airport to have suffered. At one stage Brussels had to cancel all flights as they ran out of de-icer!
Additionally, apart from the aprons having to be cleared of snow, each aircraft has to swept of snow and then de-icer applied. The aircraft MUST be airborne within one hour of that application or it has to be done again.
I'm not saying that BAA has handled the situation well by any means, but it is a bit too easy for armchair folk to forget that LHR is one of the biggest airports in the world...and also that they get their pre-season advice (I believe) from the Met Office, who seem to have thought that this winter would be mild, in keeping with their AGW faith. ;)
theres not a weather forecast in existence that is 100% reliable, its an educated guess - look at the weather data F1 teams use - they cant tell where and when its going to rain in the next 5mins let alone 5months :D
for my tuppence, i reckon we'll see more extremes of weather (as NASA and the MetOffice predicts) - better get used to it :y
there was a Norwegian Airport official on the radio said it took them approx 4mins to clear a runway after a heavy snowfall at Oslo and they hire 30-40 extra bodies in winter purely to clear snow, now I'd suggest they have a plan in place to quickly mobilise whats needed in the event of snow, but I also think you've got to look at Heathrow being too busy for its own good, UK isn't that big a country so why not spread the load around a bit? :y
Could build a new airport near Perth and a high speed train link (none stop) to London? Actually better would be one out to sea near London. All planes landing and taking off from the sea to minimise noise etc. A high speed rail link from there North and one to the centre of London. Ditto a motorway again with very few access points near the airport end.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Nothing wrong with being the busiest airport in the world (and making lots of money from it) BUT you need to be nimble and make immediate decisions when there are difficulties. Not pfaff about for a day or so debating what to do. I noticed that they had Three different spokesmen (maybe more). What does that tell you?
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I also think you've got to look at Heathrow being too busy for its own good, UK isn't that big a country so why not spread the load around a bit? :y
Yes, I think you're getting a nibble there BJ.
LHR is running at capacity in my view - there's nothing really wrong with that if that capacity can be managed well.
We are beginning to see the practical cost to putting profit before sound operating procedures in a lot of our critical infrastructure - easily enough managed when things are reasonably all right but subject to chaotic attempts by managers to rectify a failing system when things begin to go wrong for a prolonged period.
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Actually better would be one out to sea near London. All planes landing and taking off from the sea to minimise noise etc. A high speed rail link from there North and one to the centre of London. Ditto a motorway again with very few access points near the airport end.
Yes, I certainly agree there - although when the Mayor of London suggested a similar thing a while ago he was ridiculed for some reason.
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Hope you meet with success G. :y
It appears that he may well have done so - well done G.
I'm afraid not :'(
We got so very close, someone was late and made it with a minute to spare otherwise we would have both gotten out. Last try tomorrow before we give up and stay home.
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Hope you meet with success G. :y
It appears that he may well have done so - well done G.
I'm afraid not :'(
We got so very close, someone was late and made it with a minute to spare otherwise we would have both gotten out. Last try tomorrow before we give up and stay home.
Sorry to hear that G - maybe tomorrow will bring better luck for you. :( :y
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Hope you meet with success G. :y
It appears that he may well have done so - well done G.
I'm afraid not :'(
We got so very close, someone was late and made it with a minute to spare otherwise we would have both gotten out. Last try tomorrow before we give up and stay home.
Sorry to hear that G - maybe tomorrow will bring better luck for you. :( :y
Cheers Zulu, I'm up at 3am so off to bed. Night all ;)