Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: pscocoa on 26 November 2010, 14:49:37
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Boiler has worked fine for 5 years but last 2 days boiler is running but no heating being delivered consistently - thought it may have been pump or room stat.
My wife called in a heating engineer different to the plumber installer who says that it is not wired correctly. Bascially pump is supposed to be wired in directly by running additional cable from airing cupboard to pump. This was never done but boiler as said has been working.
Proposal is to change pcb to see if that corrects problem. Has anyone come across the issues of the need for this extra pair of wires - is this likely to be part of the problem?
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Pump should be powered from the boiler to support pump overrun (protects the boiler from flash boiling).
You say the boiler fires, do you get hot water, heating or both?
Is the pump running?
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:D :D :D Thought Omegas were either petrol or diesel,must be an old model,serioously google in plumbing forums and you'll get loads of info on your problem :y :y
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That particular boiler must be about one of the least reliable ones out there!
As MDTM says, that boiler (like virtually all modern boilers) controls the pump itself, and will run the pump for a while after the boiler has switched off.
The pump should be wired directly to the boiler's pump control.
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The thing I struggle with is....although the PCB is knows to be about as reliable as an MP at election time, if the boiler is firing and the pump is running.....something should be getting hot....either water or heating
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Pump should be powered from the boiler to support pump overrun (protects the boiler from flash boiling).
You say the boiler fires, do you get hot water, heating or both?
Is the pump running?
Boiler is firing no problem, heat is not circulating consistently so I presume if the pump was directly wired it would shut down the fans. If you switch boiler off and on everything starts to work - heating and hot water - for a time.
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The thing I struggle with is....although the PCB is knows to be about as reliable as an MP at election time, if the boiler is firing and the pump is running.....something should be getting hot....either water or heating
Yes this is my dilemma - my first reaction was pump not working - fiddled with room stat and everything fired up and ran last night very well.
I suppose I will have to change pcb to rule that out but why has it run fine for 5 years? Has the lack of direct wiring to pump caused pcb to blow I wonder?
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:D :D :D Thought Omegas were either petrol or diesel,must be an old model,serioously google in plumbing forums and you'll get loads of info on your problem :y :y
Henri - I did indeed investigate boiler/Potterton sources but nothing similar to this problem seems to be out there - loads of stuff on pcb failures which this may turn out to be - but the OOF sometimes brings solutions in this General Discussion area
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The basic flow should be:
Timer demands heating
Stat says heat required
Valve opens (or moves position if a Y plan), switch in valve then calls for the boiler to fire
Boiler starts pump
Boiler fires
Key thing is that the boiler does not know if the pump is running. It will have an internal trip which kicks in if the water temp in the heat exchanger gets to high (on a Suprema I think the light flashes when this happens)
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The basic flow should be:
Timer demands heating
Stat says heat required
Valve opens (or moves position if a Y plan), switch in valve then calls for the boiler to fire
Boiler starts pump
Boiler fires
Key thing is that the boiler does not know if the pump is running. It will have an internal trip which kicks in if the water temp in the heat exchanger gets to high (on a Suprema I think the light flashes when this happens)
So logically if pump not wired to boiler then if pump working spasmodically boiler will continue to fire until internal trip comes in. The light sequence is off,off, flashing which means "Burner Off".
Only other issue is why turning boiler off and on seems to get everything working. Will change pcb and report back but not convinced on this.
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The basic flow should be:
Timer demands heating
Stat says heat required
Valve opens (or moves position if a Y plan), switch in valve then calls for the boiler to fire
Boiler starts pump
Boiler fires
Key thing is that the boiler does not know if the pump is running. It will have an internal trip which kicks in if the water temp in the heat exchanger gets to high (on a Suprema I think the light flashes when this happens)
So logically if pump not wired to boiler then if pump working spasmodically boiler will continue to fire until internal trip comes in. The light sequence is off,off, flashing which means "Burner Off".
Only other issue is why turning boiler off and on seems to get everything working. Will change pcb and report back but not convinced on this.
Correct, turning the boiler off will reset the trip on these micro controlled units (cant recall if pressing the reset button on them does the same). :y
PCB is F-expensive on these by the way.....so be ABSOLUTELY sure before doing it!
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If it locks out in the morning it may be the spark electrode that gets damp overnight if it has a hairline crack in it, it will usually recover once it has some voltage put through it, hence it lighting on the second attempt, and sometimes the gas control valve sticks. If it is overheating then I would usually check the system and bypass first, and I would replace the overheat and boiler stat sensors before shelling out for a costly pcb. :-/
edit: Do a e-bay search for Potterton Suprema PCB, there are a plethera of new & recon pcb's with guarantees for far less than the usual cost :y
I have no knowledge or affilliation with these people but
these guys have a good reputation & are apparently very helpfull to talk to. This link is NOT for your particular PCB but gives you all the info to get in touch with them & how they operate. I hope it helps :y
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ideal-Isar-Icos-Istor-173534-PCB-Exchange-Service-/200544221826?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item2eb15dfa82
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just got back home and everything has been working for several hours without a pcb change.
Pump is red hot though - not sure I recall it being so hot previously - is this normal - does not appear to be stuck as heating and water working fine
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just gtot back home and everything has been working for several hours without a pcb change.
Pump is red hot though - not sure I recall it being so hot previously - is this normal - does not appear to be stuck as heating and water working fine
They do get hot, certainly 60+ degC.
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Do you have thermostatic valves on most or all the rads?
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Do you have thermostatic valves on most or all the rads?
yes
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Do you have thermostatic valves on most or all the rads?
yes
If there isn't a dedicated by-pass fitted to the system then one rad needs to be fitted with manual valves at both ends or else the system wont have a constant circulation in the event all thermostatic valves are shut at any given time. ;)
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Do you have thermostatic valves on most or all the rads?
yes
If there isn't a dedicated by-pass fitted to the system then one rad needs to be fitted with manual valves at both ends or else the system wont have a constant circulation in the event all thermostatic valves are shut at any given time. ;)
Thanks - just checked 5 out of 12 are thermostatic so gave wrong info in my previous post -
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I had a Potterton Prima in my last house (previous model to the Suprima, I only had to change the PCB once ::))
The recurring problem I had was that the microswitches in the 3 port valve would burn out because they were not suitable for carrying all the current required by the boiler and pump.
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I am assuming this is a conventional indirect heating system with boiler, hot water storage cylinder & feed & storage tanks in the loft/above the cylinder? If so, check that the ballvalve supplying the heating system (smaller of 2 tanks) hasn't become jammed shut & the tank still has water in it? :-/
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I am assuming this is a conventional indirect heating system with boiler, hot water storage cylinder & feed & storage tanks in the loft/above the cylinder? If so, check that the ballvalve supplying the heating system (smaller of 2 tanks) hasn't become jammed shut & the tank still has water in it? :-/
yes -system is as you describe but it is working fine right now and since about 5pm.
Point tp consider also is in MDTMs post re. internal trip - question would the internal trip generate a lock out /red light or just cause the boiler to hang in burner off mode?
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I am assuming this is a conventional indirect heating system with boiler, hot water storage cylinder & feed & storage tanks in the loft/above the cylinder? If so, check that the ballvalve supplying the heating system (smaller of 2 tanks) hasn't become jammed shut & the tank still has water in it? :-/
yes -system is as you describe but it is working fine right now and since about 5pm.
Point tp consider also is in MDTMs post re. internal trip - question would the internal trip generate a lock out /red light or just cause the boiler to hang in burner off mode?
If it's working correctly it should cause a lock out :y
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I had an issue with one of my motorised valves that the valve would occasionally close when the thermostat is satisfied, but the microswitch would jam closed, meaning that the boiler is working into the bypass circuit (which, in my case, includes 2 bathroom radiators, so the boiler didn't get unduly upset).
If there is little or no heat load on the boiler in this state I could imagine it might lockout. Waggle the thermostat and the microswitch might unstick.
Failing that is the pump starting reliably? Could be that the capacitor is failing (it's in a pretty hostile environment) and the motor isn't starting reliably.
If the boiler starts OK the only thing on the PCB that might be suspect is the relay that controls the pump perhaps? Certainly not worth changing without further diagnosis IMHO.
Kevin
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new pcb fitted and so far so good - seems to have resolved another issue that when boiler turned off at boiler switch it continued to run (unless fans designed to operate that way).
looks as though we may be able to use wiring from programmer to pump (together with a new feed from boiler/programmer mains switch) to connect pump to boiler directly without running a new cable. not too sure about this as everything working ok now so do not really want to disturb and as I have not had heat exchanger problems with the incorrect wiring in 5 and a half years which is apparently the consequence of no pump overrun.
thanks for all the input - at least I have a better understanding of system.
pcb was £118 new - thanks for link to ebay site but as cost between refurb and an immediate new one not that great, thought I would get job done
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The basic flow should be:
Timer demands heating
Stat says heat required
Valve opens (or moves position if a Y plan), switch in valve then calls for the boiler to fire
Boiler starts pump
Boiler fires
Key thing is that the boiler does not know if the pump is running. It will have an internal trip which kicks in if the water temp in the heat exchanger gets to high (on a Suprema I think the light flashes when this happens)
Which light it is is in the manual, but it doesn't need reseting - it assumes the water is hot, and runs pump until its cold enough, then relights.
So failed pumps just show up as no heating. But a failed pump is normally easy to spot by feeling pipes as it heats from cold.
The PCB, mostly its dry joints (which by time of failure are burnt boards) ime, and can normally be easily fixed. Maybe my PCBs haven't lasted long enough to kill the caps ;D. Invariably, pcb faults cause boiler lock-out.
A bang with rubber mallet can start a sticky pump, but is a short term fix!
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I had an issue with one of my motorised valves that the valve would occasionally close when the thermostat is satisfied, but the microswitch would jam closed, meaning that the boiler is working into the bypass circuit (which, in my case, includes 2 bathroom radiators, so the boiler didn't get unduly upset).
If there is little or no heat load on the boiler in this state I could imagine it might lockout. Waggle the thermostat and the microswitch might unstick.
Failing that is the pump starting reliably? Could be that the capacitor is failing (it's in a pretty hostile environment) and the motor isn't starting reliably.
If the boiler starts OK the only thing on the PCB that might be suspect is the relay that controls the pump perhaps? Certainly not worth changing without further diagnosis IMHO.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin - our posts crossed - pump is not wired to boiler as it should be but has been like that since installation - I was not getting lock outs just this "burner off" signal with fans running and nothing happening.
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I am assuming this is a conventional indirect heating system with boiler, hot water storage cylinder & feed & storage tanks in the loft/above the cylinder? If so, check that the ballvalve supplying the heating system (smaller of 2 tanks) hasn't become jammed shut & the tank still has water in it? :-/
yes -system is as you describe but it is working fine right now and since about 5pm.
Point tp consider also is in MDTMs post re. internal trip - question would the internal trip generate a lock out /red light or just cause the boiler to hang in burner off mode?
Lockout on suprimas (red flashing) is usually always pcb.
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have followed this thread with interest as I had a similar problem a few years ago,however I did;nt have the benefit of the oof members then.
Have to say the wealth of help and info on all matters whether car related or not is fantastic,keep up the good work . Oh and to you pscocoa I feel I should apologise for my flippant remark,hope your problem is now history
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have followed this thread with interest as I had a similar problem a few years ago,however I did;nt have the benefit of the oof members then.
Have to say the wealth of help and info on all matters whether car related or not is fantastic,keep up the good work . Oh and to you pscocoa I feel I should apologise for my flippant remark,hope your problem is now history
no need to apologise Henri - the depth of OOF advice is considerable and not always appreciated at first glance. I suppose on here you have people who try to understand technical faults of all types whether out of interest or for cost saving or avoiding getting mugged by those that offer parts and services - "professionally".
Just returned from Reading v Leeds , 0-0 - should have stayed at home with the boiler I think - (old boiler if she cannot see over my shoulder).
on a separate note - I heard that Stihl Viking were selling unused display lawnmowers - not sure if I had been fotunate to be allocated but it turned up today - £200 for a decent self propelled about £250 under book so that offsets the pcb expense I suppose in a roundabout way. Amazing piece of kit.
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Just a bit of info that may save someone time and trouble. If you get the dreaded lock out situation on the Suprima HE check for a frozen condensate pipe outside the house. This will be quite common at these temperatures. Going to get some lagging now it is cleared again. Might save you call out fees even if insured as frozen pipes often not covered by policies
New PCB cleared previous problem (original post) by the way
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Just a bit of info that may save someone time and trouble. If you get the dreaded lock out situation on the Suprima HE check for a frozen condensate pipe outside the house. This will be quite common at these temperatures. Going to get some lagging now it is cleared again. Might save you call out fees even if insured as frozen pipes often not covered by policies
New PCB cleared previous problem (original post) by the way
Which will be as a result of incorrect installation by a monkey with a certificate!
They need to teach these fitters to read as part of the gas safe process!
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Thanks Marks - what is correct instruction on this if you have it please or link to what should have been done? Much appreciated if you have something.
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Potterton have some decent info in the installation manual from memory.
The basics are that if its external it needs to be in 32mm pipe (waste pipe), idealy insulated and have a fall of 50mm in 1m.
Have a look at appendix B of this:
http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Planning%20and%20building/ID%20AssessmentGuidetoCondensingBoilerInstallationinDwellings%2020100910%20mm.pdf
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
They truely are useless over priced workers arnt they!
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
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Potterton have some decent info in the installation manual from memory.
The basics are that if its external it needs to be in 32mm pipe (waste pipe), idealy insulated and have a fall of 50mm in 1m.
Have a look at appendix B of this:
http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Planning%20and%20building/ID%20AssessmentGuidetoCondensingBoilerInstallationinDwellings%2020100910%20mm.pdf
Thanks for that - my pipe is 4m external - now reduced to about 1.5m. It was only 25mm in diameter which might have been ok under old regs but certainly is not now.
Apparently even the 32mm has been freezing at other houses.
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Only acceptable if you have a combined foul and surface water drain..
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
They truely are useless over priced workers arnt they!
I can't complain too much - he fitted it in October and still hasn't sent me the bill! (He was my next door neighbour - now moved further south) ... maybe he'll forget ;)
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Mine is in what is essentially the gas meter/electric meter/fuse box cupboard which has an inspection hatch into the downstairs bathroom (it's a weird sort of half room thing). It's on an outside wall, so the over-pressure vent is piped outside, but the condensate drain is piped down into the main soil pipe since it's not more than 4' away, which was handy.
Though I was a bit worried that the cupboard might drop below freezing (it's not very well insulated.. the whole house isn't!), fortunately it's lowest temp is above freezing (and just below the frost protection temp on the boiler)..
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Potterton have some decent info in the installation manual from memory.
The basics are that if its external it needs to be in 32mm pipe (waste pipe), idealy insulated and have a fall of 50mm in 1m.
Have a look at appendix B of this:
http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Planning%20and%20building/ID%20AssessmentGuidetoCondensingBoilerInstallationinDwellings%2020100910%20mm.pdf
Thanks for that - my pipe is 4m external - now reduced to about 1.5m. It was only 25mm in diameter which might have been ok under old regs but certainly is not now.
Apparently even the 32mm has been freezing at other houses.
The regs state that insulation is required in exposed locations
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Only acceptable if you have a combined foul and surface water drain..
According to a mate's Dad who was a plumber all his life nowhere in the borough has seperate drains, tis but another southern frippery we manage without oop north. ;D
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Only acceptable if you have a combined foul and surface water drain..
According to a mate's Dad who was a plumber all his life nowhere in the borough has seperate drains, tis but another southern frippery we manage without oop north. ;D
Ow dear, another plumber talking out his ass.
Its been a requirement of the regs for 20+ years so all recent build will have them.
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Only acceptable if you have a combined foul and surface water drain..
According to a mate's Dad who was a plumber all his life nowhere in the borough has seperate drains, tis but another southern frippery we manage without oop north. ;D
Ow dear, another plumber talking out his ass.
Its been a requirement of the regs for 20+ years so all recent build will have them.
As he's been dead for most of the last 20 years I'd imagine he was spot on at the time.
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we have separate foul and rainwater drains - can condensate go to either then?
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we have separate foul and rainwater drains - can condensate go to either then?
No, its slightly acid so can NOT go into the surface water drains
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
My boiler is in what used to my airing cupboard and doesn't have an external wall, so my boiler condensates into a saniflow type tank complete with pump that pumps it up trough my roof into the gutter. This was at my suggestion verses how he wanted to plumb the bottom feed boiler into where the original boiler was sited.
Only acceptable if you have a combined foul and surface water drain..
By chance then my condensate goes into my foul drain ..... eventually. :y
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s**t. Short run is to rain water. Longer run to foul. Back to drawing board after cold spell.
i.e. long run is frozen solid - so will need to thaw out and then switch back. I wouldn't mind but a registered heating engineer advised connection could be to either!!
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s**t. Short run is to rain water. Longer run to foul. Back to drawing board after cold spell.
i.e. long run is frozen solid - so will need to thaw out and then switch back. I wouldn't mind but a registered heating engineer advised connection could be to either!!
Any engineer would not make that mistake....hence why they are really only fitters!
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s**t. Short run is to rain water. Longer run to foul. Back to drawing board after cold spell.
i.e. long run is frozen solid - so will need to thaw out and then switch back. I wouldn't mind but a registered heating engineer advised connection could be to either!!
Any engineer would not make that mistake....hence why they are really only fitters!
Engineers designed the Titanic. ;D
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s**t. Short run is to rain water. Longer run to foul. Back to drawing board after cold spell.
i.e. long run is frozen solid - so will need to thaw out and then switch back. I wouldn't mind but a registered heating engineer advised connection could be to either!!
Any engineer would not make that mistake....hence why they are really only fitters!
Engineers designed the Titanic. ;D
Correct, and it was the monkey operating the ship that caused it to sink (and the saleman who sold it as unsinkable!) ;D
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s**t. Short run is to rain water. Longer run to foul. Back to drawing board after cold spell.
i.e. long run is frozen solid - so will need to thaw out and then switch back. I wouldn't mind but a registered heating engineer advised connection could be to either!!
Any engineer would not make that mistake....hence why they are really only fitters!
Engineers designed the Titanic. ;D
Correct, and it was the monkey operating the ship that caused it to sink (and the saleman who sold it as unsinkable!) ;D
....................and even the Harland & Wolff parts manager who specified cast iron rivets instead of steel ones!! ;) ;) ;)
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....................and even the Harland & Wolff parts manager who specified cast iron rivets instead of steel ones!! ;) ;) ;)
Ahh, come on. The bean counters always know best. :-X
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Simples, just box in the pipe! ;)
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
They truely are useless over priced workers arnt they!
[/highlight]
Ahem! >:( Don't tar all tradesmen with the same brush Mr DTM if you please, if you've had bad experiences with the ones you've used, then they may deserve the above remark, but I certainly don't & neither do the majority of fellow Plumbers/Gas Engineers that I know personally or professionally. There are 'Cowboys' in every field of endeavour! ;)
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
They truely are useless over priced workers arnt they!
[/highlight]
Ahem! >:( Don't tar all tradesmen with the same brush Mr DTM if you please, if you've had bad experiences with the ones you've used, then they may deserve the above remark, but I certainly don't & neither do the majority of fellow Plumbers/Gas Engineers that I know personally or professionally. There are 'Cowboys' in every field of endeavour! ;)
There not engineers, fitters and techs at best.
And I see to many shite installs so yes....crap trade and crap body over seeing them.
Sorry :y
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Ah but, what size pipe, whats the fall and how long is it.....
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I'm glad mine is indoors .. well, in a sort of half-indoor cupboard (gets down to 5.5C in this weather but no lower).. although there is a nice 'uphill' section in the pipe thanks to my plumber who was apparently unfamiliar with the concept of gravity.. :D
They truely are useless over priced workers arnt they!
[/highlight]
Ahem! >:( Don't tar all tradesmen with the same brush Mr DTM if you please, if you've had bad experiences with the ones you've used, then they may deserve the above remark, but I certainly don't & neither do the majority of fellow Plumbers/Gas Engineers that I know personally or professionally. There are 'Cowboys' in every field of endeavour! ;)
There not engineers, fitters and techs at best.
And I see to many shite installs so yes....crap trade and crap body over seeing them.Sorry :y
That is only YOUR opinion you cheeky sod, what would your reaction be to someone calling everyone in your Profession Crap? >:(
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Many of them are but, our professional body gets rid of them.....gas safe are a blody joke, its not like its a particularly difficult thing to get right yet so many get it wrong.
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Many of them are but, our professional body gets rid of them.....gas safe are a blody joke, its not like its a particularly difficult thing to get right yet so many get it wrong.
Yes, I have to agree that the former CORGI & now 'Gas Safe' (a bloody misnomer if ever there was one!) were/are a bloody joke, & as said earlier there are plenty of cowboys & otherwise useless individuals in the Trades who couldn't give a flying F for anything other than their paypacket, but that is still no reason to slag off everyone who works in that sector. Also as I said earlier, your opinion is just that, Yours! but if you choose to air it in Public in the manner you have here, it wont go unanswered ;D ;)
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Ah but, what size pipe, whats the fall and how long is it.....
you are right - it is a long run with a 90 degree angle in it and apparently goes uphill!!
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Ah but, what size pipe, whats the fall and how long is it.....
you are right - it is a long run with a 90 degree angle in it and apparently goes uphill!!
Uphill? I haven't understood most of this, most interesting, but am I to understand a gravity drain away has an uphill section...?
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Ah but, what size pipe, whats the fall and how long is it.....
you are right - it is a long run with a 90 degree angle in it and apparently goes uphill!!
Uphill? I haven't understood most of this, most interesting, but am I to understand a gravity drain away has an uphill section...?
This installation has but shouldn't have. ;) ;)
In temps above freezing he's got away with it becaue it's acted like a U trap under the sink, but obviously not now the condensate in there has frozen. :y
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Just spoke to a mate in Wargrave who had the same issue of condensate pipe frozen last night - and is his lagged!! So now we are onto "wrong type of lagging".
But the wall the pipe is on is north facing!!
Ah but, what size pipe, whats the fall and how long is it.....
you are right - it is a long run with a 90 degree angle in it and apparently goes uphill!!
Uphill? I haven't understood most of this, most interesting, but am I to understand a gravity drain away has an uphill section...?
This installation has but shouldn't have. ;) ;)
In temps above freezing he's got away with it becaue it's acted like a U trap under the sink, but obviously not now the condensate in there has frozen. :y
I find that quite incredible. Think the fitter has his chains on the wrong wheels. :o
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Yes, I have to agree that the former CORGI & now 'Gas Safe' (a bloody misnomer if ever there was one!) were/are a bloody joke, & as said earlier there are plenty of cowboys & otherwise useless individuals in the Trades who couldn't give a flying F for anything other than their paypacket, but that is still no reason to slag off everyone who works in that sector. Also as I said earlier, your opinion is just that, Yours! but if you choose to air it in Public in the manner you have here, it wont go unanswered ;D ;)
I will state what I see.
Three boiler installs in our close in the last two years by three different installers (note I dont use the term engineer because there not one) including one who was subcon to British Gas with the other two being localy recommended.
Not one of the installs meets the regs and two out of the three have had the condensate drains freeze and one of them has a down hill flue so some of the condensate pours all over the floor!
Its a sad state of affairs but the plumbing and heating trade is of a very low standard, when there are bodies to control it this should not happen.
I called Gas Safe regarding the neighbours installs and they didn't want to know.....thankfuly, building control did.
I for one, if I knew I was doing a good job and paying the so called professional body a not insignificant amount of cash every year, would be kicking up a right fuss.
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(http://www.filmwise.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley_popcorn.gif)
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http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1838395#1838395
Clearly in this cold weather, more thought is required to stop condensate pipes freezing. My neighbours 32mm external has frozen, and he hopes to solve it with boxed lagging. With continual temps below freezing, it will still freeze. I have sent him this link. :y
PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
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PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
Slight deviation of thread ;) but I've just tried to use my 'outside' tap which is on the house side of my attached garage ........ it's frozen! :-? :-? My point being is that it's not going to easy to stop a condensate drain from freezing if it goes anywhere near outside.
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PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
Slight deviation of thread ;) but I've just tried to use my 'outside' tap which is on the house side of my attached garage ........ it's frozen! :-? :-? My point being is that it's not going to easy to stop a condensate drain from freezing if it goes anywhere near outside.
Not much use to you now, but I have an internal isolation valve, switch it off and leave the outside one open. 8-) 8-) 8-)
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PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
Slight deviation of thread ;) but I've just tried to use my 'outside' tap which is on the house side of my attached garage ........ it's frozen! :-? :-? My point being is that it's not going to easy to stop a condensate drain from freezing if it goes anywhere near outside.
Not much use to you now, but I have an internal isolation valve, switch it off and leave the outside one open. 8-) 8-) 8-)
It's never normally a problem, as said, it's in my garage only a couple of feet from the main stop cock. It can only be the actual tap body that's frozen cos there's moving water just inches away. :y
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Went to work today, arrived into a discussion between colleagues that one of them is getting error F4 on his Glowarm.
I know thats the condensate pipe is blocked, so I quiz him on the install.
Done by Britisg Gas this time last year, 15mm pipe, uninsulated outside.
The huge majority of new boiler installs I see are a bloody disgrace. In fact, the only ones I've seen in the last 5 years that I say are acceptable are the ones I've done myself.
Its not difficult, so you have to ask, are a significant proportion of fitters lazy, or just stupid? Either way, its for CORGI Gas Safe to sort out - except that body is just purely to protect the incomes of the people who pay them several hundred pounds a year, and care little about the end customer.
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The thing I can't understand is that every gas appliance I've ever owned has come with a totally comprehensive set of instructions covering all installation requirements.
I can't see how anyone who is capable of reading and carrying-out a set of simple instructions can fail to end up with a proper installation, experienced with gas, "competent", "registered" or not.
... Unless they can't be bothered to do a proper job, or think they know better than the engineers who designed the appliance.
I too have come across a good few people who have had frozen condensate drains in the past couple of weeks, so it's obviously widespread.
Kevin
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Next door has had same 'vent pipe' problem. Drain was running slightly uphill on a Horizontal run before going through outside wall,build of watter at the elbow had frozen. Apparently inhibits correct operation of boiler.
Engineer was right P1553d off,he's had to do dozens in one week.
eddie
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PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
Slight deviation of thread ;) but I've just tried to use my 'outside' tap which is on the house side of my attached garage ........ it's frozen! :-? :-? My point being is that it's not going to easy to stop a condensate drain from freezing if it goes anywhere near outside.
Its simple Andy.
They specifiy a large bore pipe with a set fall and a maximum length as that will ensures that the water runs and cant freeze.
The water will exit the boiler at a 'reasonable' temp, it takes time for the condensate to lower in temp to the point it will freeze, hence the max length and fall specs
The insulation is there to give a safe guard.
The water in your outside tap freezes because it sits there slowly getting colder and colder..... :y
Simples :y
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Next door has had same 'vent pipe' problem. Drain was running slightly uphill on a Horizontal run before going through outside wall,build of watter at the elbow had frozen. Apparently inhibits correct operation of boiler.
Engineer was right P1553d off,he's had to do dozens in one week.
eddie
THERE NOT ENGINEERS ;D :y
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Next door has had same 'vent pipe' problem. Drain was running slightly uphill on a Horizontal run before going through outside wall,build of watter at the elbow had frozen. Apparently inhibits correct operation of boiler.
Engineer was right P1553d off,he's had to do dozens in one week.
eddie
THERE NOT ENGINEERS ;D :y
what do you consider to be an engineer then Mark? ;)
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PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
Slight deviation of thread ;) but I've just tried to use my 'outside' tap which is on the house side of my attached garage ........ it's frozen! :-? :-? My point being is that it's not going to easy to stop a condensate drain from freezing if it goes anywhere near outside.
Its simple Andy.
They specifiy a large bore pipe with a set fall and a maximum length as that will ensures that the water runs and cant freeze.
The water will exit the boiler at a 'reasonable' temp, it takes time for the condensate to lower in temp to the point it will freeze, hence the max length and fall specs
The insulation is there to give a safe guard.
The water in your outside tap freezes because it sits there slowly getting colder and colder..... :y
Simples :y
My neighbour's drain pipe is 32mm, about 3' long, and froze solid. See my link above. :y :(
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My neighbour's drain pipe is 32mm, about 3' long, and froze solid. See my link above. :y :(
If it's that cold even hot water will have frozen by the time it gets to the end of a 3' pipe. :y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyHLEjKCF4g :o
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If I was a cynical type, which I flecking well am, I'd say it's deliberate to get the recall work.
Surely it's easier to fit a straight drop than a u bend or whatever...?
Why invest time making work for yourself.... I wonder? (assuming I've understood all this correctly of course)
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http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1838395#1838395
Clearly in this cold weather, more thought is required to stop condensate pipes freezing. My neighbours 32mm external has frozen, and he hopes to solve it with boxed lagging. With continual temps below freezing, it will still freeze. I have sent him this link. :y
PS Mine is internal ;D ;D ;D
But does it have the correct fall on it. :y
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TB Asked me to post these - This is a British Gas install at a colleagues house
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00306.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00307.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00308.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00309.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00310.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/DSC00311.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/P1000482.JPG)
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/heating/P1000486.JPG)
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Next door has had same 'vent pipe' problem. Drain was running slightly uphill on a Horizontal run before going through outside wall,build of watter at the elbow had frozen. Apparently inhibits correct operation of boiler.
Engineer was right P1553d off,he's had to do dozens in one week.
eddie
THERE NOT ENGINEERS ;D :y
what do you consider to be an engineer then Mark? ;)
Engineer
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering. (which plumbing, wiring and fixing washing machines is not)
2. One who operates an engine. (obviously)
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
Technician
1. a person skilled in mechanical or industrial techniques or in a particular technical field (e.g. a plumber, sparky or reapir man)
2. a person employed in a laboratory, technical college, or scientific establishment to do practical work
3. a person having specific artistic or mechanical skill, esp if lacking original flair or genius
Simples ;D
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3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
.....
Would Jame T Kirk count? ::) ::) ;) :y
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Engineer
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering. .....
that'll be me then! :y :y :y
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My neighbour's drain pipe is 32mm, about 3' long, and froze solid. See my link above. :y :(
If it's that cold even hot water will have frozen by the time it gets to the end of a 3' pipe. :y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyHLEjKCF4g :o
Unsurprisingly, it did. ;D ;D ;D
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As can be seen from the photos Jimbob posted for me earlier, the idiots haven't put any fall on the pipe, its frozen at the elbow, then overflowed into the loft space (fortunately, most of the water ran outside the house. The photos do not do it justice, the vertical part of the pipe is frozen solid, as is all the water that overflowed at the top.
Bloody cowboys
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Engineer
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering. (which plumbing, wiring and fixing washing machines is not)
2. One who operates an engine. (obviously)
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
Technician
1. a person skilled in mechanical or industrial techniques or in a particular technical field (e.g. a plumber, sparky or reapir man)
2. a person employed in a laboratory, technical college, or scientific establishment to do practical work
3. a person having specific artistic or mechanical skill, esp if lacking original flair or genius
Simples ;D
Ace, so as long as the Omegas running and Im under the bonnet revving it up operating it im fine?
...
Actually, does the petrol lawn mower count? :-X
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My neighbour's drain pipe is 32mm, about 3' long, and froze solid. See my link above. :y :(
If it's that cold even hot water will have frozen by the time it gets to the end of a 3' pipe. :y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyHLEjKCF4g :o
Unsurprisingly, it did. ;D ;D ;D
And guess which company did this? No prizes BTW. :o :o :o
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As can be seen from the photos Jimbob posted for me earlier, the idiots haven't put any fall on the pipe, its frozen at the elbow, then overflowed into the loft space (fortunately, most of the water ran outside the house. The photos do not do it justice, the vertical part of the pipe is frozen solid, as is all the water that overflowed at the top.
Bloody cowboys
Its amazing the number of bodge jobs I've seen recently...
Latest on: I've just started a new job which involves working with LCD projectors / PA systems etc for conferences. One of which is in a largish event room which can hold hundreds of people... and the main join on the feed to the projector (5 coax cables) is 3 BNC to BNC (fine), the other two just bare wires twisted together thrown under the desk. Not even taped up with insulation tape!
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As can be seen from the photos Jimbob posted for me earlier, the idiots haven't put any fall on the pipe, its frozen at the elbow, then overflowed into the loft space (fortunately, most of the water ran outside the house. The photos do not do it justice, the vertical part of the pipe is frozen solid, as is all the water that overflowed at the top.
Bloody cowboys
Its amazing the number of bodge jobs I've seen recently...
Latest on: I've just started a new job which involves working with LCD projectors / PA systems etc for conferences. One of which is in a largish event room which can hold hundreds of people... and the main join on the feed to the projector (5 coax cables) is 3 BNC to BNC (fine), the other two just bare wires twisted together thrown under the desk. Not even taped up with insulation tape!
The increase in bodging is because we pander to the knuckle draggers, rather than let the army use them for target practice.
We have a retarded lazy prat at work - mgmt never blame him, but when HE cocks up (not often, he does sod all most of the time), WE ALL get a bollocking. When the rest of us make a mistake, we get individual bollockings...
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As can be seen from the photos Jimbob posted for me earlier, the idiots haven't put any fall on the pipe, its frozen at the elbow, then overflowed into the loft space (fortunately, most of the water ran outside the house. The photos do not do it justice, the vertical part of the pipe is frozen solid, as is all the water that overflowed at the top.
Bloody cowboys
Its amazing the number of bodge jobs I've seen recently...
Latest on: I've just started a new job which involves working with LCD projectors / PA systems etc for conferences. One of which is in a largish event room which can hold hundreds of people... and the main join on the feed to the projector (5 coax cables) is 3 BNC to BNC (fine), the other two just bare wires twisted together thrown under the desk. Not even taped up with insulation tape!
The increase in bodging is because we pander to the knuckle draggers, rather than let the army use them for target practice.
We have a retarded lazy prat at work - mgmt never blame him, but when HE cocks up (not often, he does sod all most of the time), WE ALL get a bollocking. When the rest of us make a mistake, we get individual bollockings...
the sun obviously shines out of his .... then! >:(
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Well, thanks to another retarded lazy prat who probably incorrectly calls himself an engineer, I've just spent Christmas afternoon mopping the parents' floor. >:(
This time it was the outlet from a water softener. Straight out of the wall and then a horizonal run of 22mm plastic pipe for about 3 metres to the drain.
Kevin
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Just had a call from me Mum in Cumbria. Anyone want to guess the issue? >:(
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It's a good job the average electrician isn't this incomp ZZZZZZZZT!
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Just had a call from me Mum in Cumbria. Anyone want to guess the issue? >:(
:o :o :o Got to be Fire, after all they have had Flood and Earthquake.........
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Just had a call from me Mum in Cumbria. Anyone want to guess the issue? >:(
:o :o :o Got to be Fire, after all they have had Flood and Earthquake.........
Nope, too cold for that.
And yes she has had just about everything but a plague of locusts. I'll spare you the story at this time of year. :'(
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Hi all
Just come across your forum and hope you can help with my problem (well rather my daughters).
Had a lovely Christmas dinner then daughter realised boiler was not switching off, even though thermostat was down to below 15. We left her at 8pm and she called in panic at 11pm to say it was still running even though she has turned heating off completely..She lives in rented house and agents answer machine says "no one available until 4th Jan" .. I would be really grateful for any suggestion as to what she should try, she has 2 small children and a limited budget so is scared of calling out someone herself. :(
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What system is running? Heating or hot water?
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Heating and water supplied by the boiler..
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Sorry didnt answer that very well, i'm not boiler minded i'm afraid. All I know is that when I was in kitchen (where boiler is housed) it sounded like is was continually running, like when it first kicks in when thermomstat turned up..if that makes sense
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Is the house temp boiling hot, or has she left a hot tap running? Hasn't left the bath running has she?
Most boilers produce heat for hot water and central heating. Either could be calling for heat making the boiler run. If it's central heating on constantly then it will be too hot in the house.
If it's the hot water making the boiler run then the water could be flowing out of a tap somewhere.
Or there is a fault. But simple stuff first.
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I got her to check the taps etc., heating stat was turned right off so house wasn't overhot. I did notice a few points on your forum from earlier about a pcb? ..do they get stuck ? also about the pipe to outside which I haven't noticed when i've been there. Seems that these boilers are a bother, the house is about 7yrs old
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Usually a fault would shut it down. If it's not central heating the house then sounds like the hot water side of the system. Are you sure nothing is using hot water? Washing machine on? Hot water on constant, over flow outside maybe? :-/
No offence but if the occupants are new to the property it's bound to be something daft I would think?
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Is there a frost stat fitted? Any lights on that should not be on the boiler?
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No offence taken..I appreciate what your saying. It just seems weird that the boiler was firing up every 5-10mins when the stat was set at 20 and was still doing same when stat was set at 0.
She has been in house over a year with no problems up to now..and as far as I know no issues with overflow but i'll check with her in morning as she's prob sleeping, got a little one who wakes early.
I'm also not sure about the Frost Stat, will also check with her about that..She was never given a manual so its difficult to read the panel of lights.
Thank you very much for your time and suggestions. Just seen where you live, small world so do we LOL
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Should be able to view the manual on line? Tried googling? I guess ypu must havevto find this thread. Boiler should have installers details on it somewhere. Might be a drop down panel at the bottom with some instructions perhaps?
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Hi all
Just come across your forum and hope you can help with my problem (well rather my daughters).
Had a lovely Christmas dinner then daughter realised boiler was not switching off, even though thermostat was down to below 15. We left her at 8pm and she called in panic at 11pm to say it was still running even though she has turned heating off completely..She lives in rented house and agents answer machine says "no one available until 4th Jan" .. I would be really grateful for any suggestion as to what she should try, she has 2 small children and a limited budget so is scared of calling out someone herself. :(
You will also find in-depth help on the DIYnot plumbing forum.
HTH :y
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When I started this thread I had a pcb problem where boiler fans kept running even when turned off. Changed pcb and problem sorted. But they are not cheap Suprima is about £180 and Suprima HE £120 or so.
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Hi all
Just come across your forum and hope you can help with my problem (well rather my daughters).
Had a lovely Christmas dinner then daughter realised boiler was not switching off, even though thermostat was down to below 15. We left her at 8pm and she called in panic at 11pm to say it was still running even though she has turned heating off completely..She lives in rented house and agents answer machine says "no one available until 4th Jan" .. I would be really grateful for any suggestion as to what she should try, she has 2 small children and a limited budget so is scared of calling out someone herself. :(
My first guess is that you have a motorised valve that has stuck.
They should open when the thermostat calls for heat and spring closed when not.
A microswitch in the valve activates the boiler when the valve opens. If the microswitch fails or the valve sticks open, the boiler won't shut off.
There should be a spur box near the boiler to isolate the supply to the heating controls. Switching that off will stop the boiler cycling constantly.
Kevin