Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Elite Pete on 04 January 2011, 11:32:06
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Is my Vauxhall dealer extracting the pish. I bought a thermostat and pipe from them before Christmas but haven't used them now they are saying they can't take them back becuase its over 14 days ago >:(
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Is my Vauxhall dealer extracting the pish. I bought a thermostat and pipe from them before Christmas but haven't used them now they are saying they can't take them back becuase its over 14 days ago >:(
i thought it was 28 days.
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ill buy the pipe from you if you want, literally was about to ring up and order one.
Its a shame I have just ordered the stat, else would have had that too, or maybe not as I use ebay stats at half the price
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might be something on here pete. does it say about refunds on back of invoice?
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/consumer_affairs/buying_goods_your_rights.htm
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I'm not sure that any seller is obliged to take back none faulty goods. Most shops will take back goods but are only obliged to give you a credit note.
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Did they have the part in stock?...if its a part they dont hold/had to order in may be why they wont accept it back. Had the same with a thermostat/housing when i ordered one for my vec...had to pay upfront aswell.
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Depending on who I speak to they are normally pretty good but lately i've been getting non TC parts so much cheaper from my source at Chester, just means I have to wait for delivery :(
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Did they have the part in stock?...if its a part they dont hold/had to order in may be why they wont accept it back. Had the same with a thermostat/housing when i ordered one for my vec...had to pay upfront aswell.
No it was something they ordered in, however, I must spend a minimum of £200 to £300 a month (not a fortune I know) so I thought they might help out a bit :(
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I might be interested in the Thermostat
PM Sent :y
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I might be interested in the Thermostat
PM Sent :y
Yeah, me too, actually. Mine's running at 75-80 C now. >:(
Kevin
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So....as there currently seem to be a glut of thermostats needed...
Can the extreme temperatures weve been having knacker them?
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some may not have the mix right, or checked it.??
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Depending on who I speak to they are normally pretty good but lately i've been getting non TC parts so much cheaper from my source at Chester, just means I have to wait for delivery :(
Tell them the rule means 14 working days Pete and watch thier faces. :y
Because when it suits, it's 14 working days or 14 days, it's not your fault christmas day, boxing day and new years day were not week days that bank holidays are mormaly on.
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So....as there currently seem to be a glut of thermostats needed...
Can the extreme temperatures weve been having knacker them?
I reckon it just makes it more obvious that there's a problem. Mine has always run a little cool (just over 80 if air con fans are running) but I've not considered it a problem before as it's always warmed up quickly. When it's very sub-zero it warms up to about 75, then the gauge plummets back to nothing before gradually rising again. Clearly not working too well.
Having said that, 80 is hot enough for it not to be a desperate problem, IMHO, so it'll probably wait until I change the cam belt & water pump, etc. in 10K miles (when the garage is nice and warm :y).
Kevin
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I need a decent thermostat for my diesel. I fitted a new one about 6 months ago but it runs about 80 but when we had the -13 a couple of weeks ago the temp dropped to 75 so i'll get a Vauxhall or BMW one for it :)
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some may not have the mix right, or checked it.??
How does that work then? Antifreeze / Coolant is basically an additive that makes water impure hence lowering the freezing point and raising the boiling point of the water, there are other products added to the coolant such as RUST inhibitors but to the best of my knowledge none of this would effect when a thermostat opens or closes.
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some may not have the mix right, or checked it.??
How does that work then? Antifreeze / Coolant is basically an additive that makes water impure hence lowering the freezing point and raising the boiling point of the water, there are other products added to the coolant such as RUST inhibitors but to the best of my knowledge none of this would effect when a thermostat opens or closes.
;D ;D
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some may not have the mix right, or checked it.??
How does that work then? Antifreeze / Coolant is basically an additive that makes water impure hence lowering the freezing point and raising the boiling point of the water, there are other products added to the coolant such as RUST inhibitors but to the best of my knowledge none of this would effect when a thermostat opens or closes.
Ethylene glycol disrupts hydrogen bonding when dissolved in water.
Pure ethylene glycol freezes at about -12°C (10.4°F), but when mixed with water molecules, neither can readily form a solid crystal structure, and therefore the freezing point of the mixture is depressed significantly.
The minimum freezing point is observed when the ethylene glycol percent in water is about 70%.
This is the reason pure ethylene glycol is not used as an antifreeze--water is a necessary component as well.
As Ethylene Glycol is considerably more dense than plain-water....might fluid dynamics come into play with sticky thermostats in cold temps. :-?
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 0.75 BTU/lb F, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water. Additionally, the increase in boiling point over pure water inhibits nucleate boiling on heat transfer surfaces thus reducing heat transfer efficiency in some cases, such as gasoline engine cylinder walls. Therefore, pure ethylene glycol should not be used as an engine coolant in most cases.
So yes, there`s an efficiency curve of specific heat-transfer potentiality versus peak freeze-limitation......50% glycol for the former and 70% glycol for the latter.
As with most things in life, it`s a trade off of various factors: heat transfer, boil prevention and lowering the freeze point.
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The original post was...
Is my Vauxhall dealer extracting the pish. I bought a thermostat and pipe from them before Christmas but haven't used them now they are saying they can't take them back becuase its over 14 days ago >:(
And Freecalls reply was....
some may not have the mix right, or checked it.??
The old school game of Chinese whispers, or am I missing something??? No wonder the thread reads like the cushion of a pinball machine.... ::) ::) ::)
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 0.75 BTU/lb F, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water. Additionally, the increase in boiling point over pure water inhibits nucleate boiling on heat transfer surfaces thus reducing heat transfer efficiency in some cases, such as gasoline engine cylinder walls. Therefore, pure ethylene glycol should not be used as an engine coolant in most cases.
So yes, there`s an efficiency curve of specific heat-transfer potentiality versus peak freeze-limitation......50% glycol for the former and 70% glycol for the latter.
As with most things in life, it`s a trade off of various factors: heat transfer, boil prevention and lowering the freeze point.
Right, so (please excuse my ignorance and lack of intelligence here!) what you are saying then is that there is a trade off between the %age mixture of water/coolant (read coolant as anti-freeze solution) and the specific heat it can transfer from the block surfaces?
Therefore i'm guessing that the only way to improve the heat transfer rate is with a greater flow and colder coolant feed (ie thermostat fully open to allow full feed and return to and from Radiator?).
In effect what i'm getting at is that a car with a higher %age concentration of coolant mix will warm up quicker and hence the thermostat will open earlier....
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 0.75 BTU/lb F, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water. Additionally, the increase in boiling point over pure water inhibits nucleate boiling on heat transfer surfaces thus reducing heat transfer efficiency in some cases, such as gasoline engine cylinder walls. Therefore, pure ethylene glycol should not be used as an engine coolant in most cases.
So yes, there`s an efficiency curve of specific heat-transfer potentiality versus peak freeze-limitation......50% glycol for the former and 70% glycol for the latter.
As with most things in life, it`s a trade off of various factors: heat transfer, boil prevention and lowering the freeze point.
Right, so (please excuse my ignorance and lack of intelligence here!) what you are saying then is that there is a trade off between the %age mixture of water/coolant (read coolant as anti-freeze solution) and the specific heat it can transfer from the block surfaces?
Therefore i'm guessing that the only way to improve the heat transfer rate is with a greater flow and colder coolant feed (ie thermostat fully open to allow full feed and return to and from Radiator?).
In effect what i'm getting at is that a car with a higher %age concentration of coolant mix will warm up quicker and hence the thermostat will open earlier....
My understanding is that lower glycol percentile concentrations would be more efficient at specific heat transfer, but at the inversely proportionate disadvantage of the greater risk of boiling and with reduced freeze protection......but, the graph curve at greater percentile glycol mixes for heat-transfer versus freezing and boil prevention can be favourably shifted by increased circulation-speed/throughput (the other modifier).
The viscosity specifics of water and glycol 'at various temperatures' also makes for interesting reading:
http://physics.info/viscosity/
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 0.75 BTU/lb F, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water. Additionally, the increase in boiling point over pure water inhibits nucleate boiling on heat transfer surfaces thus reducing heat transfer efficiency in some cases, such as gasoline engine cylinder walls. Therefore, pure ethylene glycol should not be used as an engine coolant in most cases.
So yes, there`s an efficiency curve of specific heat-transfer potentiality versus peak freeze-limitation......50% glycol for the former and 70% glycol for the latter.
As with most things in life, it`s a trade off of various factors: heat transfer, boil prevention and lowering the freeze point.
Right, so (please excuse my ignorance and lack of intelligence here!) what you are saying then is that there is a trade off between the %age mixture of water/coolant (read coolant as anti-freeze solution) and the specific heat it can transfer from the block surfaces?
Therefore i'm guessing that the only way to improve the heat transfer rate is with a greater flow and colder coolant feed (ie thermostat fully open to allow full feed and return to and from Radiator?).
In effect what i'm getting at is that a car with a higher %age concentration of coolant mix will warm up quicker and hence the thermostat will open earlier....
My understanding is that lower glycol percentile concentrations would be more efficient at specific heat transfer, but at the inversely proportionate disadvantage of the greater risk of boiling and with reduced freeze protection......but, the graph curve at greater percentile glycol mixes for heat-transfer versus freezing and boil prevention can be favourably shifted by increased circulation-speed/throughput (the other modifier).
The viscosity specifics of water and glycol 'at various temperatures' also makes for interesting reading:
http://physics.info/viscosity/
i agree!?!
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Does the 50% ethylene glycol / water solution absorb heat from the block at a different rate to lower %age concentrations?
Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 50/50 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 0.75 BTU/lb F, thus requiring increased flow rates in same system comparisons with water. Additionally, the increase in boiling point over pure water inhibits nucleate boiling on heat transfer surfaces thus reducing heat transfer efficiency in some cases, such as gasoline engine cylinder walls. Therefore, pure ethylene glycol should not be used as an engine coolant in most cases.
So yes, there`s an efficiency curve of specific heat-transfer potentiality versus peak freeze-limitation......50% glycol for the former and 70% glycol for the latter.
As with most things in life, it`s a trade off of various factors: heat transfer, boil prevention and lowering the freeze point.
Right, so (please excuse my ignorance and lack of intelligence here!) what you are saying then is that there is a trade off between the %age mixture of water/coolant (read coolant as anti-freeze solution) and the specific heat it can transfer from the block surfaces?
Therefore i'm guessing that the only way to improve the heat transfer rate is with a greater flow and colder coolant feed (ie thermostat fully open to allow full feed and return to and from Radiator?).
In effect what i'm getting at is that a car with a higher %age concentration of coolant mix will warm up quicker and hence the thermostat will open earlier....
My understanding is that lower glycol percentile concentrations would be more efficient at specific heat transfer, but at the inversely proportionate disadvantage of the greater risk of boiling and with reduced freeze protection......but, the graph curve at greater percentile glycol mixes for heat-transfer versus freezing and boil prevention can be favourably shifted by increased circulation-speed/throughput (the other modifier).
The viscosity specifics of water and glycol 'at various temperatures' also makes for interesting reading:
http://physics.info/viscosity/
Sorry yes I see what your saying. I think my angle was that the block would heat up quicker because the coolant couldn't dissasipate the heat quickly enough, where my angle went a full 360 degrees and failed was that I failed to take into account that because the coolant mixture was less able to dissasipate the heat the thermostat would take longer to open as it relates directly to the coolant temperature.... which is lower....
So I guess the answer would be a thermostat that opens at a lower temperature... Ultimately though I would imagine the Coolant mix %age is probably calculated on the working limits the manufacturer specifies for the car.
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Interesting questions from V6 and great replies from Deb. 8-) :y