Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 20 January 2011, 22:50:56
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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-the-population-timebomb-is-a-myth-2186968.html
No surprises there, then. :y
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
An insightful response, packed with thought-provoking and rational criticism. ::) ::)
Is it any wonder why my interest in OOF General Discussion is waning? :(
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Nickbat , even today 1/3 of human kind is starving..
I hope I wont see the day people start to eat other :-/
world resources are finite but this growing population does not seem to be finite.. :-X
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Nickbat , even today 1/3 of human kind is starving..
I hope I wont see the day people start to eat other :-/
world resources are finite but this growing population does not seem to be finite.. :-X
It may help to read the article:
"French scientists set themselves the goal of discovering whether a global population of 9 billion, the likely peak according to the UN, could readily have access to 3,000 calories a day, even as farms take measures to cut down on the use of fossil fuels and refrain from cutting down more forests: their answer was, you will be thrilled to know, "yes".
::) ::)
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I'm afraid mathematical rules are certain..
the writer of this article seems to ignore 2 facts..
* resources are finite
* farming areas become useless with chemical industrial waste ..
there is only one certain solution which nasa works on it.. space colonies.. no other way..
hence the reason why they search for water/ice on the moon..
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I'm afraid mathematical rules are certain..
the writer of this article seems to ignore 2 facts..
* resources are finite
* farming areas become useless with chemical industrial waste ..
there is only one certain solution which nasa works on it.. space colonies.. no other way..
hence the reason why they search for water/ice on the moon..
The writer of this article is, I understand, quoting scientific research.
Space colonies? Spaced-out colonies might be more useful. ::) ::)
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I'm afraid mathematical rules are certain..
the writer of this article seems to ignore 2 facts..
* resources are finite
* farming areas become useless with chemical industrial waste ..
there is only one certain solution which nasa works on it.. space colonies.. no other way..
hence the reason why they search for water/ice on the moon..
But did they check their sparks and fit winter tyres before they commenced on the journey ? :D :D ;D
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I'm afraid mathematical rules are certain..
the writer of this article seems to ignore 2 facts..
* resources are finite
* farming areas become useless with chemical industrial waste ..
there is only one certain solution which nasa works on it.. space colonies.. no other way..
hence the reason why they search for water/ice on the moon..
[/highlight]
But did they check their sparks and fit winter tyres before they commenced on the journey ? :D :D ;D
i thought it was to keep the ruskies busy.
talking of such, havent they got stacks of room with very little people and we have the eu mountain.
more to do with pesky medaling politicians and mismanagement that a lack of possible resources.
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At the end of the day if we continuing to populate the earth resource will run out. The line in the Matrix still rings true about the only other species that acts in the same was is a virus. 8-)
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At the end of the day if we continuing to populate the earth resource will run out. The line in the Matrix still rings true about the only other species that acts in the same was is a virus. 8-)
with shoes.
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when i was born in '69 the population on earth was less than 4bn, now, its nearly 7bn.
It'll be fine tho, just so long as no one needs any oil.
Oh, and I'd look at the increasingly aging population everywhere, people are working to provide for more and more dependents.
I have no doubt that the west will be OK tho....so who cares :y
Plenty of room for more in the UK for example, no one has a problem with that do they? ;)
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Many years ago I volunteered for some work for the Prince's Trust packing up aid parcels.
The information I heard then about massive expanses of land that was unuseable due to contamination and failed crops with starving people convinces me there MUST be somebody somewhere that sees sense about all this money going OUT of this country to "help" others that ends up in some dictators pocket, or gets ultimately "sold" to their needy people, and perhaps channels a bit of it to help OUR problems!!
There may not be a population explosion, but "Great" Britain appears to be slowly sinking in more ways than one!!
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I know this is general discussion, but there are certain things which do not require discussion. There are too many people in the world. That's the end of any discussion with me. :y
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At the end of the day if we continuing to populate the earth resource will run out. The line in the Matrix still rings true about the only other species that acts in the same was is a virus. 8-)
with shoes.
In my experience one finds a much more acceptable class of virus in a nice pair of Tim Little's 6 hole Oxfords. :-* :y
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when i was born in '69 the population on earth was less than 4bn, now, its nearly 7bn.
It'll be fine tho, just so long as no one needs any oil.
Oh, and I'd look at the increasingly aging population everywhere, people are working to provide for more and more dependents.
I have no doubt that the west will be OK tho....so who cares :y
Plenty of room for more in the UK for example, no one has a problem with that do they? ;)
The population is set to peak at around 9bn. Fertility/birth rates are falling in most areas except for Africa. The problem of an aging population will, in the future, need to be compensated by those of working age which will be in shorter supply.
Oil is not going to run out anytime soon. There are an estimated 2 trillion barrels beneath the Rockies in Utah & Colorado; plus a likelihood of further deposits beneath unsurveyed land.
Bad news for the Mathusians & doom mongers. ;) Fine for the rest of us. :y
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I am not going to post quotes, as in fact I rarely do! But I remember listening to many different scientists of various persuasions who were singing from the same hymn sheet.
A world population of 9 billion that we are heading to is unsustainable. The world can only provide something like 1.5 acres per person of food producing land, but already western countries are using 2.6 acres per person, and it is only the fact that African countries and those in the east average 0.9 acres means we can presently cope with the 6 billion people in the world. 9 billion therefore is unsusportable.
I rememeber the scientists pointing out that it is the issue of usable land being available that is the problem. Why? because there is only so much water available, and already the water tables in the places growing huge amounts of food for western markets, like India, is declinling at an extremely fast rate. Wells are going deeper and deeper to find that water, and it is predicted it will all go in a relatively short space of time. Those lands will then not only be unable to provide food for the west, but also will not do so for their own people.
Result; mass starvation, beyond that witnessed around the world already! With the climate in a current process of heating up then the situation can only get worse.
No, we have got to face the fact that the human race is becoming too large, and a major 'reduction' by Nature itself is regrettfully the answer, and no doubt God has got that in hand! 'Reductions' resulting through plagues and war have taken place throughout history, and the Great Leveller is due to strike anytime!
Now what is that super volcano up you.............?
;)
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A world population of 9 billion that we are heading to is unsustainable. The world can only provide something like 1.5 acres per person of food producing land, but already western countries are using 2.6 acres per person, and it is only the fact that African countries and those in the east average 0.9 acres means we can presently cope with the 6 billion people in the world. 9 billion therefore is unsusportable. ;)
From the linked article:
Interestingly, another detailed report on "sustainability" published last week by the French national agricultural and development research agencies came up with the same answer. The French scientists set themselves the goal of discovering whether a global population of 9 billion, the likely peak according to the UN, could readily have access to 3,000 calories a day....their answer was..."yes".
You seem to know more than the French research agencies, Lizzie. I bow to your expertise in this field. ;) :D
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...//usable land being available//... ...//only so much water available//...
;)
I think these are important points. :y
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I strongly suspect there are enough resources to support enormous populations, just a lack of willingness to share them.
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A world population of 9 billion that we are heading to is unsustainable. The world can only provide something like 1.5 acres per person of food producing land, but already western countries are using 2.6 acres per person, and it is only the fact that African countries and those in the east average 0.9 acres means we can presently cope with the 6 billion people in the world. 9 billion therefore is unsusportable. ;)
From the linked article:
Interestingly, another detailed report on "sustainability" published last week by the French national agricultural and development research agencies came up with the same answer. The French scientists set themselves the goal of discovering whether a global population of 9 billion, the likely peak according to the UN, could readily have access to 3,000 calories a day....their answer was..."yes".
You seem to know more than the French research agencies, Lizzie. I bow to your expertise in this field. ;) :D
Not my expertise Nick, but that of internationally renouned scientists. The French scientists may have a different view, but scientists always do!! ;) ;)
However, as I stated, God and nature will sort it all out! ::) ::) ;)
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..................and I will add the other worry of the scientists I am referring to is the amount of oil it also takes to produce and distribute the food we eat and will require in the future.
I don't think I need to explain the oil issue.........reducing stocks................costs................distrubution difficulties............ ;) ;)
In short we have a looming challenge all round :( :(
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I'm afraid mathematical rules are certain..
the writer of this article seems to ignore 2 facts..
* resources are finite
* farming areas become useless with chemical industrial waste ..
there is only one certain solution which nasa works on it.. space colonies.. no other way..
hence the reason why they search for water/ice on the moon..
But did they check their sparks and fit winter tyres before they commenced on the journey ? :D :D ;D
;D ;D ;D
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
I'm with Cem on this one. Resources are finite not infinite......and how do they arrive at the peak figure of nine billion ......why not twelve .....fifteen or twenty billion? ;)
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
I'm with Cem on this one. Resources are finite not infinite......and how do they arrive at the peak figure of nine billion ......why not twelve .....fifteen or twenty billion? ;)
Known existing fertility & birth rates (both falling)
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when i was born in '69 the population on earth was less than 4bn, now, its nearly 7bn.
It'll be fine tho, just so long as no one needs any oil.
Oh, and I'd look at the increasingly aging population everywhere, people are working to provide for more and more dependents.
I have no doubt that the west will be OK tho....so who cares :y
Plenty of room for more in the UK for example, no one has a problem with that do they? ;)
The population is set to peak at around 9bn. Fertility/birth rates are falling in most areas except for Africa. The problem of an aging population will, in the future, need to be compensated by those of working age which will be in shorter supply.
Oil is not going to run out anytime soon. There are an estimated 2 trillion barrels beneath the Rockies in Utah & Colorado; plus a likelihood of further deposits beneath unsurveyed land.
Bad news for the Mathusians & doom mongers. ;) Fine for the rest of us. :y
my people, also middle east must have tought that
their population is not enough so they are really working hard 7/24 ;D ;D ;D ;D
and as for the oil..
estimated reserve is different.. and even after an initial production test (this is done by measuring flow rates and pressure drops when you started a production well , tests done for some period) the final production amounts highly differ than the calculated..
so, if you use the word "soon" for the next 10-15 years , yes, oil wont be depleted that much quickly.. (unless some wars happen and the arabs decide to burn the reserves like they did in Kuwait) however increasing consumption rates show that this estimated life wont go that long.. (like 100 years) :-/
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as Cem said at the start - we can't feed the people on the planet right now at a population of 6bn, so what makes you think feeding 9bn will be easier?
Yes, we have the technology to feed everyone, so why don't we do it right now?
Nah, we'll ignore it I reckon like we've always done in the past up to now.
Virus with shoes.
No further questions m'lud :(
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as Cem said at the start - we can't feed the people on the planet right now at a population of 6bn, so what makes you think feeding 9bn will be easier?
Yes, we have the technology to feed everyone, so why don't we do it right now?Nah, we'll ignore it I reckon like we've always done in the past up to now.
Virus with shoes.
No further questions m'lud :(
Politics. ;)
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as Cem said at the start - we can't feed the people on the planet right now at a population of 6bn, so what makes you think feeding 9bn will be easier?
Yes, we have the technology to feed everyone, so why don't we do it right now?Nah, we'll ignore it I reckon like we've always done in the past up to now.
Virus with shoes.
No further questions m'lud :(
Politics. ;)
so what'll change in the future? I've no doubt we can do it, I just doubt we will.....sadly :(
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as Cem said at the start - we can't feed the people on the planet right now at a population of 6bn, so what makes you think feeding 9bn will be easier?
Yes, we have the technology to feed everyone, so why don't we do it right now?Nah, we'll ignore it I reckon like we've always done in the past up to now.
Virus with shoes.
No further questions m'lud :(
Politics. ;)
Largely down to politics (as Albs rightly pointed out) and investment. For those who did not read the article linked (i.e. the majority I expect) may I draw your attention to the following statement:
For example, Dr Fox pointed out, in Africa, no less than half the food produced is destroyed before it reaches its local marketplace: with refrigeration and good roads, the developing world could avoid this horrendous waste.
;)
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..and, of course, when it comes to wasting natural resources, one need look no further than the EU's fishery laws which prompt the immoral discarding of millions of tonnes of fish each year. >:(
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
I'm with Cem on this one. Resources are finite not infinite......and how do they arrive at the peak figure of nine billion ......why not twelve .....fifteen or twenty billion? ;)
Known existing fertility & birth rates (both falling)
You know Nick then that this trend will continue over the next 5, 10, 20, 50 years? How?
As for "food waste" in Africe, it is not just a case of plugging in freezers or fridges. They so often do not have clean running water, let alone electricity. They need the basics, but political will and nature is not currently favouring resolution of all these issues now, or anytime soon, let alone the climate becoming more favourable to help! ::) ::)
All that has been taken into account by the scientists who say the Earth cannot support 9 billion people, as I explained before. ;) ;)
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:-? :-?
sorry but utter 'dangle berries' ;D
I'm with Cem on this one. Resources are finite not infinite......and how do they arrive at the peak figure of nine billion ......why not twelve .....fifteen or twenty billion? ;)
Known existing fertility & birth rates (both falling)
You know Nick then that this trend will continue over the next 5, 10, 20, 50 years? How?
As for "food waste" in Africe, it is not just a case of plugging in freezers or fridges. They so often do not have clean running water, let alone electricity. They need the basics, but political will and nature is not currently favouring resolution of all these issues now, or anytime soon, let alone the climate becoming more favourable to help! ::) ::)
All that has been taken into account by the scientists who say the Earth cannot support 9 billion people, as I explained before. ;) ;)
1. How do you know it won't? I merely look at the facts which show conclusively that birth rates have declined (in step with relative prosperity). As far as the fertility rates are concerned, they have been going down for some time now; there is no reason to suppose that trend is about to reverse.
2. Except, of course, the scientists mentioned in the article who say it can. ::) ::)
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..and, of course, when it comes to wasting natural resources, one need look no further than the EU's fishery laws which prompt the immoral discarding of millions of tonnes of fish each year. >:(
And if that's not another reason why the present arrangements with Brussels shouldn't be kicked decisively into the gutter I don't know what is.
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
if you dont solve this problem at the beginning , a person suffers whole out the life (and the related others) and then his/her family and his/her children and their childrens and the chain goes on..
which one do you prefer ?
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
if you dont solve this problem at the beginning , a person suffers whole out the life (and the related others) and then his/her family and his/her children and their childrens and the chain goes on..
which one do you prefer ?
Freedom, not state or supranational fascism. :(
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
Just like China, I suppose - one child per family. Unless you're rich and then you can just pay the fines and/or buy children from families who've had one too many. The communist utopia where ... money rules?
Oh and that's forgetting the families who kill their own children before registering their birth in order to keep trying for a boy (leading to few women and many men).
Yep, I think I'm with you there, Nickbat.
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
if you dont solve this problem at the beginning , a person suffers whole out the life (and the related others) and then his/her family and his/her children and their childrens and the chain goes on..
which one do you prefer ?
Freedom, not state or supranational fascism. :(
I'm afraid that freedom does not contain reproduction unlimited ;D .. Problem is, you think in terms of UK standards like 2-3 children.. in east you can see families with 5-6-7-8 and in some cases more than 20 children with multiple wifes.. ;D do you know how they feed those children.. onion, bread ,tomato and water..mostly.. :(
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I'm afraid that freedom does not contain reproduction unlimited ;D .. Problem is, you think in terms of UK standards like 2-3 children.. in east you can see families with 5-6-7-8 and in some cases more than 20 children with multiple wifes.. ;D do you know how they feed those children.. onion, bread ,tomato and water..mostly.. :(
They procreate most in poorer societies because of the high level of infant mortality. Once these nations are brought up to Western standards of living, the birth rate will fall. However, it is no business of mine, or yours, or any politician, or UN bureaucrat to dictate how many children they should have. When they achieve prosperity, and better health, they will have less children. Their freedom will remain untarnished. :y
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I'm afraid that freedom does not contain reproduction unlimited ;D .. Problem is, you think in terms of UK standards like 2-3 children.. in east you can see families with 5-6-7-8 and in some cases more than 20 children with multiple wifes.. ;D do you know how they feed those children.. onion, bread ,tomato and water..mostly.. :(
They procreate most in poorer societies 1 .because of the high level of infant mortality.
:) Nickbat , no direct/indirect relationship.. the main reason is they need more slaves to work on the ground and go after animals..and they need more hands to hold guns.. in these communities number of persons are desired to be maximum..
2.Once these nations are brought up to Western standards of living, the birth rate will fall.
Nope.. many people from those nations migrate to west countries (big cities) and most of them remain the same..
(I can even give some links to pictures but not necessary)
3.However, it is no business of mine, or yours, or any politician, or UN bureaucrat to dictate how many children they should have.
we are not imposing or dictating anything, world/country resources and economic conditions define the rules unfortunately..
When they achieve 4.prosperity, and better health, they will have less children. Their freedom will remain untarnished. :y
How they can achieve that .. everyday millions of people are added to jobless,homeless poor masses..
if the capitalist system continues to pump the money to the top of pyramid everytime this will never happen..
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I'm afraid that freedom does not contain reproduction unlimited ;D .. Problem is, you think in terms of UK standards like 2-3 children.. in east you can see families with 5-6-7-8 and in some cases more than 20 children with multiple wifes.. ;D do you know how they feed those children.. onion, bread ,tomato and water..mostly.. :(
They procreate most in poorer societies 1 .because of the high level of infant mortality.
:) Nickbat , no direct/indirect relationship.. the main reason is they need more slaves to work on the ground and go after animals..and they need more hands to hold guns.. in these communities number of persons are desired to be maximum..
2.Once these nations are brought up to Western standards of living, the birth rate will fall.
Nope.. many people from those nations migrate to west countries (big cities) and most of them remain the same..
(I can even give some links to pictures but not necessary)
3.However, it is no business of mine, or yours, or any politician, or UN bureaucrat to dictate how many children they should have.
we are not imposing or dictating anything, world/country resources and economic conditions define the rules unfortunately..
When they achieve 4.prosperity, and better health, they will have less children. Their freedom will remain untarnished. :y
How they can achieve that .. everyday millions of people are added to jobless,homeless poor masses..
if the capitalist system continues to pump the money to the top of pyramid everytime this will never happen..
The scatter graph here shows a direct connection between infant mortality and birth rate:
http://www.scalloway.org.uk/popu6.htm
It also describes how the developed (capitalist) nations have lower birth rates due to expense, sexual equality, career, etc.
You claim that those who emigrate to the West continue to have high birth rates. That may be so, but it would be unacceptable/illegal to single out minorities to be subjected to birth constraints. :y
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I'm afraid that freedom does not contain reproduction unlimited ;D .. Problem is, you think in terms of UK standards like 2-3 children.. in east you can see families with 5-6-7-8 and in some cases more than 20 children with multiple wifes.. ;D do you know how they feed those children.. onion, bread ,tomato and water..mostly.. :(
They procreate most in poorer societies 1 .because of the high level of infant mortality.
:) Nickbat , no direct/indirect relationship.. the main reason is they need more slaves to work on the ground and go after animals..and they need more hands to hold guns.. in these communities number of persons are desired to be maximum..
2.Once these nations are brought up to Western standards of living, the birth rate will fall.
Nope.. many people from those nations migrate to west countries (big cities) and most of them remain the same..
(I can even give some links to pictures but not necessary)
3.However, it is no business of mine, or yours, or any politician, or UN bureaucrat to dictate how many children they should have.
we are not imposing or dictating anything, world/country resources and economic conditions define the rules unfortunately..
When they achieve 4.prosperity, and better health, they will have less children. Their freedom will remain untarnished. :y
How they can achieve that .. everyday millions of people are added to jobless,homeless poor masses..
if the capitalist system continues to pump the money to the top of pyramid everytime this will never happen..
1.The scatter graph here shows a direct connection between infant mortality and birth rate:http://www.scalloway.org.uk/popu6.htm
It also describes how the developed (capitalist) nations have lower birth rates due to expense, sexual equality, career, etc.
You claim that those who emigrate to the West continue to have high birth rates. That may be so, but 2.it would be unacceptable/illegal to single out minorities to be subjected to birth constraints. :y
1.yep.. but dont tell me those people think that "so many people around are going to die so we must hurry to make babies " ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D .. its what they are and how they used to live..
2. Ok then.. dont do it.. But I'll remind you the day ,you become minority in your own country ;D ;D ;)
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
Just like China, I suppose - one child per family. Unless you're rich and then you can just pay the fines and/or buy children from families who've had one too many. The communist utopia where ... money rules?
Oh and that's forgetting the families who kill their own children before registering their birth in order to keep trying for a boy (leading to few women and many men).
Yep, I think I'm with you there, Nickbat.
I'm curious if your population exceeds 109 what laws your country will make ;) and how you force people to stop .. :-/
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
Just like China, I suppose - one child per family. Unless you're rich and then you can just pay the fines and/or buy children from families who've had one too many. The communist utopia where ... money rules?
Oh and that's forgetting the families who kill their own children before registering their birth in order to keep trying for a boy (leading to few women and many men).
Yep, I think I'm with you there, Nickbat.
I'm curious if your population exceeds 109 what laws your country will make ;) and how you force people to stop .. :-/
You cannot "force people to stop" without sterilising them or killing them. Neither would be acceptable.
EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
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apart from all the discussion subject, scientifically, a full stomach doesnt mean you have good nutrition..
yes, I can fill my stomach with water and bread, like many do (here I must say I see around many people even with relatively good salaries dont have good nutrition as a well balanced nutrition costs serious sums here and those people dont like to spend all of their money for kitchen :o) but this dont solve the problem..
so, in my opinion world leading groups must bite the bullet and take the decision.. there must be serious limitations and regulations about population growth..
we are not simple creatures like a bacteria, and we cant and must not live like them..
humans need proper food, proper facilities, proper living area and a life standard.. or else we will kill each other like we do now .. :(
Huh?
UN regulations governing the number of children you may have? How? Forced sterilisations? Automatic state-imposed abortions? Mandatory euthanasia for anyone thought to have outgrown their usefulness?
I wouldn't want to be part of that fascist future, thanks. :( :(
Just like China, I suppose - one child per family. Unless you're rich and then you can just pay the fines and/or buy children from families who've had one too many. The communist utopia where ... money rules?
Oh and that's forgetting the families who kill their own children before registering their birth in order to keep trying for a boy (leading to few women and many men).
Yep, I think I'm with you there, Nickbat.
I'm curious if your population exceeds 109 what laws your country will make ;) and how you force people to stop .. :-/
You cannot "force people to stop" without sterilising them or killing them. Neither would be acceptable.
EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
yeah.. let them populate like rabbits and all of us starve to death together..
human freedom is not endless. has the limits where it starts to harm others freedom.. we have one world so we must live on it without disturbing/harming others..
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my neighbour has 3 grown up kids.. one is married and now living together the family and has one baby..so this makes up of totalling 7 persons in home..
father works day time, boy works at nights.. he comes home nearl 2 30 - 3 00 am.. makes many noises..sometimes they use the washing machine at 3 am.. and they then sleep until next day afternoon (except father) .. as you can guess many nights they wake me up and dont let me sleep..
oh , thats my good neighbour.. the others, :-X
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
Agreed ZL! :y :y
................and of course the more will build on land to provide housing for our expanding population, the less usable land we will have for growing any of our own food ::) ::) ::) ;)
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
actually its has a direction Zulu.. What the ruling bosses think of behind their mind but abstain from spelling it in front of masses.. they want so many worker slaves who are starving and ready for work, day and night just for few pennies.. >:(
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
Spot on, Z. :y
It shouldn't be taboo but, as soon as anyone mentions it in the mainstream media, they are labelled as racist. ::)
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wouldn't it be better to have an anmesty on all the illegal immigrants living and working in the UK? they're doing jobs without which places in the UK - especially London would simply grind to a halt, theyre the invisible oil in the machine. get them on the books and paying taxes, deportation would be a shortsighted and expensive travesty :y
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
Agreed ZL! :y :y
................and of course the more will build on land to provide housing for our expanding population, the less usable land we will have for growing any of our own food ::) ::) ::) ;)
Too late. We already grow hardly any of the food eaten in Britain due to daft housewife preferences (i.e. want all types of foods throughout the year and apparently at the lowest price possible). Hence why you eat tasteless Spanish greenhouse grown toms at Xmas and drink French Milk etc etc.
Plenty of space for new towns in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps Bannjax could nominate some suitable sites (not on flood plains) :y
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
Agreed ZL! :y :y
................and of course the more will build on land to provide housing for our expanding population, the less usable land we will have for growing any of our own food ::) ::) ::) ;)
Too late. We already grow hardly any of the food eaten in Britain due to daft housewife preferences (i.e. want all types of foods throughout the year and apparently at the lowest price possible). Hence why you eat tasteless Spanish greenhouse grown toms at Xmas and drink French Milk etc etc.
Plenty of space for new towns in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps Bannjax could nominate some suitable sites (not on flood plains) :y
absolutely millions of acres of empty land up here - all welcome to come and spend money.....even the English :y
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EDIT: Of course, there is the question of stricter immigration control to ensure that such a situation does not arise, but that is a policy which is taboo. ;)
I don't see why this should be a taboo subject.
It seems to me that there is no sensible policy within this country to control immigration - we are an island nation and one would think that this fact would give us a head start on controlling those who wish to visit here for whatever purpose.
Once again we have ceded power to an unelected cadre of individuals within a quasi democratic regime, and in this case are bound by directive to admit people, without question, from the member states.
This all seems very unsatisfactory to me. A sensible policy will admit people who have a talent to exploit, people who will benefit the nation and our economy not those who will be a drain on our benefits/social system.
The sooner we get a grip on this issue the better as if left in this directionless limbo, many problems are being stored - problems that we shouldn't have to face and problems which will be much more difficult to deal with given the masses of those immigrants already within these borders.
Agreed ZL! :y :y
................and of course the more will build on land to provide housing for our expanding population, the less usable land we will have for growing any of our own food ::) ::) ::) ;)
Too late. We already grow hardly any of the food eaten in Britain due to daft housewife preferences (i.e. want all types of foods throughout the year and apparently at the lowest price possible). Hence why you eat tasteless Spanish greenhouse grown toms at Xmas and drink French Milk etc etc.
Plenty of space for new towns in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps Bannjax could nominate some suitable sites (not on flood plains) :y
absolutely millions of acres of empty land up here - all welcome to come and spend money.....even the English :y
I did say "usable" land BJ, that which is suitable for growing crops with good yields. As far as I am aware the Scottish Highlands, and for that matter the wilds of the mountains of Wales are not of adequate quality for this use, hence cows and sheep fill the views :D :D ;)
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if grass can grow, so can crops - wheres your pioneer spirit Lizzie :y
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if grass can grow, so can crops - wheres your pioneer spirit Lizzie :y
Here in the warmer South BJ, where no midgies bite in formations, and grapes even grow! ;D ;D ;D ;)
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wouldn't it be better to have an anmesty on all the illegal immigrants living and working in the UK? they're doing jobs without which places in the UK - especially London would simply grind to a halt, theyre the invisible oil in the machine. get them on the books and paying taxes, deportation would be a shortsighted and expensive travesty :y
1. No - why reward criminals ? and if we reward these criminals, why not reward all criminals.
2. This is Gaurdianista nonsense. How did the country manage to get by until 12 or so years ago when this huge influx began ?
I have had a gang of Eastern Europeans fitting a new kitchen in my house since early December and they still havent finished.The level of skill has been appalling, the care (or lack of it) taken has been shocking, the job has been subbed by the landlord to a kitchen company, who subbed the job to an agancy, who subbed the job to a fitting company, who subbed the job to self employed fitters. They have been back several times - including two days this week to basically remove and reinstall the kitchen, and they have at least one more visit to complete the job. They have left enough cupboards, worktops and other sundry items behind to almost fit another complete kitchen. So with everyone down the line taking a cut and the revisits to try to put their mess right, and the waste of materials involved I cannot see how they can possibly make money from this - unless the person paying for it is utterly inept (which they are), and doesnt really care what it costs - which they apparently dont.
Meanwhile, my brother in law, who has been a skilled carpenter for over 20 years cant get a days work no matter what, because he wont work for £50 a day. It would be much cheaper and easier to employ him to do the job properly once than employ cheap labour to take 4 times as long to do a shoddy job.
Perhaps Banjax, if jobs in your area start to be advertised in Polish only, as is sometimes the case down south you might feel a bit differently. ;)
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wouldn't it be better to have an anmesty on all the illegal immigrants living and working in the UK? they're doing jobs without which places in the UK - especially London would simply grind to a halt, theyre the invisible oil in the machine. get them on the books and paying taxes, deportation would be a shortsighted and expensive travesty :y
1. No - why reward criminals ? and if we reward these criminals, why not reward all criminals.
2. This is Gaurdianista nonsense. How did the country manage to get by until 12 or so years ago when this huge influx began ?
I have had a gang of Eastern Europeans fitting a new kitchen in my house since early December and they still havent finished.The level of skill has been appalling, the care (or lack of it) taken has been shocking, the job has been subbed by the landlord to a kitchen company, who subbed the job to an agancy, who subbed the job to a fitting company, who subbed the job to self employed fitters. They have been back several times - including two days this week to basically remove and reinstall the kitchen, and they have at least one more visit to complete the job. They have left enough cupboards, worktops and other sundry items behind to almost fit another complete kitchen. So with everyone down the line taking a cut and the revisits to try to put their mess right, and the waste of materials involved I cannot see how they can possibly make money from this - unless the person paying for it is utterly inept (which they are), and doesnt really care what it costs - which they apparently dont.
Meanwhile, my brother in law, who has been a skilled carpenter for over 20 years cant get a days work no matter what, because he wont work for £50 a day. It would be much cheaper and easier to employ him to do the job properly once than employ cheap labour to take 4 times as long to do a shoddy job.
Perhaps Banjax, if jobs in your area start to be advertised in Polish only, as is sometimes the case down south you might feel a bit differently. ;)
not quite sure the point you're making, its a free market economy if you're brother is pricing himself out of it thats capitilism isnt it? i'm not sure them being Polish is why its a shoddy job, you mean to say you've never had poor work done by a Brit?
funnily enough there is a large Polish community in Perth, a legacy from WW2 when many were stationed here fighting with us :y
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wouldn't it be better to have an anmesty on all the illegal immigrants living and working in the UK? they're doing jobs without which places in the UK - especially London would simply grind to a halt, theyre the invisible oil in the machine. get them on the books and paying taxes, deportation would be a shortsighted and expensive travesty :y
I think there is a degree of merit in this BJ and it should be explored further as something must be done to identify just how many non-nationals are living and working (or otherwise) within these shores.
To address this however still wouldn't help us sort out the real problem of what essentially is an apparently unstoppable influx of people many of whom have no real skills and who are destined to end up in a twilight world eventually depending on social benefit to care for the families they either bring with them or start after they arrive.
I have no doubt that many immigrants decide to come here for the opportunity to work but I would also say the a fair number also come because they know there is a system of social care and yet others come because they can due to the lack of real border control and a frankly incoherent immigration policy.
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Nothing incoherent about it Z. It was deliberate policy, it was planned. All that "things are in a bit of a muddle but we are doing all we can....." was just a cover.According to Blairs adviser at the time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
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Nothing incoherent about it Z. It was deliberate policy, it was planned. All that "things are in a bit of a muddle but we are doing all we can....." was just a cover.According to Blairs adviser at the time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
Social-engineering. The aim of all lefties. ::) ::) >:(