Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 10 February 2011, 20:50:30
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Today Parliament, with the Government fully supporting, voted NOT to let those in prison have the right to vote :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
Common sense now coming to the forefront at last? Britain standing up for it?
:D :D :D :D ;)
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Today Parliament, with the Government fully supporting, voted NOT to let those in prison have the right to vote :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
Common sense now coming to the forefront at last? Britain standing up for it?
:D :D :D :D ;)
Thankfully someone has seen sense :y :y
At the end of the day, if you've done a crime serious enough to do time you should be deprived of your rights :y
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>:( we all know it's a hollow gesture from craven politicians , our EU masters will get their way in the end >:(
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At last they have shown some back bone but as I understood it on the news this could still happenn if approved EUHR court approve it tho >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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At last they have shown some back bone but as I understood it on the news this could still happenn if approved EUHR court approve it tho >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
But apparently the British Courts could challenge the EUHR court as they have gone beyond their remit (that what some so called experts are saying anyway!! ::) ::) ::)
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
He is too old and grey, so doesn't fit in to modern PR ::) ::) ::) ::) ;)
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
who the hell voted for this ?? >:(
and some people wonder why we are the joke of europe ?
europe was supposed to be a tradeing agreement. aka the comon market !!
what happened to that ??
any chance of a democracy in this country please
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
who the hell voted for this ?? >:(
and some people wonder why we are the joke of europe ?
europe was supposed to be a tradeing agreement. aka the comon market !!
what happened to that ??
any chance of a democracy in this country please
I believe we shot ourselves in the foot as soon as we signed on the dotted line ::)
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It has happened in stages over the years, with the signing of various treaties and agreements etc. We have never been allowed a vote on any of them.
There is more to come. If the EU manages to survive the next couple of decades we will be members of a fully fledged federal U.S.E.
Wheres Nickbat? he knows so much more than I do on this subject. ;)
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.....
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;) ......
Albs for PM! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
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[highlight]wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.[/highlight]Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
Spot on.
It is high time (as I have been saying for ages) for Britain to either accept the rules of the club we chose to join or decide it isn't for us. I get fed up of us sleep walking around.
maybe , just maybe this issue of votes for damn prisoners will be the catalyst. How much public anger would there be at fines for not allowing votes for prisoners? Sadly I suspect it will be the usual apathy we have come to know and love from we Brits.
We could always introduce a tick sheet that Judges fill out on sentencing. yes or no to questions like:-
Able to vote
mobile phone
internet
porn
takeaway meals
conjugal visits
television
hard labour
bread
water you get the idea. :y
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It has happened in stages over the years, with the signing of various treaties and agreements etc. We have never been allowed a vote on any of them.
There is more to come. If the EU manages to survive the next couple of decades we will be members of a fully fledged federal U.S.E.
Wheres Nickbat? he knows so much more than I do on this subject. ;)
It started with joining the EEC as follows, and I did NOT vote to stay in; my vote in the 1975 referendom was a big "NO", when fellow citizens voted 2 to 1 "YES":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/1/newsid_2459000/2459167.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/26/newsid_2503000/2503155.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm
So we initially voted, and since then we have been sucked in ;) ;)
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Personally I think we should be more involved in developing the Commonwealth than Europe. The members are more diverse, the trade can be more benefical to everyone and it would be a real blow to the determination of unelected minnions determined to turn all the people of one continent into grey homogenous little mice.
The EEC was suppsed to be a zone that helped states to trade and work together for freedom and justice. Now it is a bloated, obsessed tyrant, hellbent on imposing its will and being present where it is not wanted. The only way to put a dagger through the poisonous, intolerant heart of the EU is to withdraw from full membership and insist on reverting back to being a trade and defence partner only. When you look at the amount the UK shovels into the wasteful machine in Brussels and how it is spat back in our faces you will then see the panic that such a move would create.
Oh, and don't think we're alone in this either. Other countries have a significant resentment of the EU as well and are just as active in highlighting the horrendous waste and corruption undertaken by greedy little pigs with the protection and blessing of their peers.
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Varche - we did vote to join a club (the common market) but the club has changed into something else entirely over time, and we havent once been allowed to vote on any of the changes.
We have been lied to time and time again by politicians of all colours on this subject. They have taken us for mugs, and so far have gotten away with it. ;) Btw I agreed with everything else you wrote. I think in the short to medium term apathy will reign, we are a very apathetic country these days. Most people dont seem to know or care what the issues are, but Im sure at some point change will come. It just isnt obvious where from yet.
Nicely put Bluey. I believe there is a lot of discontentment throughout the EU, and I believe that there is a good chance it will eventually implode. :)
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
I bloody well haven't, not while i've still got breath in my body & a vote! :y
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Varche - we did vote to join a club (the common market) but the club has changed into something else entirely over time, and we havent once been allowed to vote on any of the changes.We have been lied to time and time again by politicians of all colours on this subject. They have taken us for mugs, and so far have gotten away with it. ;) Btw I agreed with everything else you wrote. I think in the short to medium term apathy will reign, we are a very apathetic country these days. Most people dont seem to know or care what the issues are, but Im sure at some point change will come. It just isnt obvious where from yet.
Nicely put Bluey. I believe there is a lot of discontentment throughout the EU, and I believe that there is a good chance it will eventually implode. :)
Doesn't that just remind you of politics in general. For example the good citizens of the UK recently "voted". What did they end up with? A coalition who have lied and broken so many promises and it is still early days. For the record , I believe that if Labour had got back in then they too would have lied and broken their promises. It is just the rotten state politics is in.
For the record few EU countries seem to have a big majority governent. Spain is saddled with Mr Bean, France has Sarky, Italy that Berly.They are all busy pushing through unpopular policies.
As for trade. I don't honestly know whether the Uk benefits or not from being in the EU. We never get told the real figures. I do know that apart from whisky which is a real worldwide success story you are hard pushed to see Uk produce in a Fench or Spanish supermarket. I wonder why? I spoke to a French stonemason and he was gobsmacked when I told him Britain produces fabulous cheese. His comment "if they do, why isn't it for sale in our supermarkets then?"
Bluey - Commonwealth? Too late mate. I am still amazed we burnt those bridges in favour of stronger links with EU countries especially after they fought for us as recently as the WW2 . :'(
The Chinese have got it right now building their commonwealth right across the globe.
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Very well put Varche. :y
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Varche - we did vote to join a club (the common market) but the club has changed into something else entirely over time, and we havent once been allowed to vote on any of the changes.We have been lied to time and time again by politicians of all colours on this subject. They have taken us for mugs, and so far have gotten away with it. ;) Btw I agreed with everything else you wrote. I think in the short to medium term apathy will reign, we are a very apathetic country these days. Most people dont seem to know or care what the issues are, but Im sure at some point change will come. It just isnt obvious where from yet.
Nicely put Bluey. I believe there is a lot of discontentment throughout the EU, and I believe that there is a good chance it will eventually implode. :)
Doesn't that just remind you of politics in general. For example the good citizens of the UK recently "voted". What did they end up with? A coalition who have lied and broken so many promises and it is still early days. For the record , I believe that if Labour had got back in then they too would have lied and broken their promises. It is just the rotten state politics is in.
For the record few EU countries seem to have a big majority governent. Spain is saddled with Mr Bean, France has Sarky, Italy that Berly.They are all busy pushing through unpopular policies.
As for trade. I don't honestly know whether the Uk benefits or not from being in the EU. We never get told the real figures. I do know that apart from whisky which is a real worldwide success story you are hard pushed to see Uk produce in a Fench or Spanish supermarket. I wonder why? I spoke to a French stonemason and he was gobsmacked when I told him Britain produces fabulous cheese. His comment "if they do, why isn't it for sale in our supermarkets then?"
Bluey - Commonwealth? Too late mate. I am still amazed we burnt those bridges in favour of stronger links with EU countries especially after they fought for us as recently as the WW2 . :'(
The Chinese have got it right now building their commonwealth right across the globe.[/quote]
i'll give it 20 years and the chinese will be running this planet.
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wont do any good Im afraid. The EU courts and Parliament have jurisdiction over Westminster. We do not have the right to defy this order from Strasbourg. We will have to comply eventually.
This country needs to decide - or more accurately, be given the right to decide - whether we want to be members of the EU club or not. If we do want to be in, then we should stop trying to change the rules when they dont suit us, its childish and demeans us in the eyes of the world at large. We need to accept that we do not any longer have a sovereign Parliament which makes the laws and applies them in this country, those days are long gone. We cant keep having our cake and eating it.
Personally, I detest the EU and would love nothing more than to see the U.K. withdraw from it ASAP. ;)
P,S I thought (the excellent) David Davies put it rather nicely today. "If you go to prison for breaking the law, you should lose your right to participate in the process of making the law". Why didnt the Tories choose him as their leader ?
I bloody well haven't, not while i've still got breath in my body & a vote! :y
In which case Phil, the only party worth casting your vote for is UKIP. :y
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
I totally agree..... :y
It makes me mad when opinion polls show over 80% of the public are against Europe, yet don't do anything about it !!!!
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Varche - we did vote to join a club (the common market) but the club has changed into something else entirely over time, and we havent once been allowed to vote on any of the changes.We have been lied to time and time again by politicians of all colours on this subject. They have taken us for mugs, and so far have gotten away with it. ;) Btw I agreed with everything else you wrote. I think in the short to medium term apathy will reign, we are a very apathetic country these days. Most people dont seem to know or care what the issues are, but Im sure at some point change will come. It just isnt obvious where from yet.
Nicely put Bluey. I believe there is a lot of discontentment throughout the EU, and I believe that there is a good chance it will eventually implode. :)
Doesn't that just remind you of politics in general. For example the good citizens of the UK recently "voted". What did they end up with? A coalition who have lied and broken so many promises and it is still early days. For the record , I believe that if Labour had got back in then they too would have lied and broken their promises. It is just the rotten state politics is in.
For the record few EU countries seem to have a big majority governent. Spain is saddled with Mr Bean, France has Sarky, Italy that Berly.They are all busy pushing through unpopular policies.
As for trade. I don't honestly know whether the Uk benefits or not from being in the EU. We never get told the real figures. I do know that apart from whisky which is a real worldwide success story you are hard pushed to see Uk produce in a Fench or Spanish supermarket. I wonder why? I spoke to a French stonemason and he was gobsmacked when I told him Britain produces fabulous cheese. His comment "if they do, why isn't it for sale in our supermarkets then?"
Bluey - Commonwealth? Too late mate. I am still amazed we burnt those bridges in favour of stronger links with EU countries especially after they fought for us as recently as the WW2 . :'(
The Chinese have got it right now building their commonwealth right across the globe.
You have hit the problem right on the head Varche! :y :y :y :y :y :y
I make no secret of the fact that although I voted "NO" in 1975 referendum on staying in the EEC, I have since been a supporter of the EU in terms of a trading and social partner. However I, like everyone else, has never voted for what even the ills of the original EEC has become >:( >:(
I want a strong Europe, working together for peace and security, but what I do not want is a Federal Europe dictating to me in Britain using unelected politicians along with defrauding us daily!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
Either Europe sorts itself out in Brussels or we pull out! I am hoping that our Prime Minister, David Cameron, who's party I have supported since the 1970s, is tough enough to protect all our interests and has the back bone to pull us out as and when necessary! ;) ;)
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
It's not like they are going to be waterboarded or anything..
Prisons exist for the removal of human rights, as punishment.
The logical conclusion to your argument is that we set the prisoners free just in case their right not to be locked up is violated.
Our government / judicial system should be in a position to specify exactly what rights prisoners on our soil are entitled to, IMHO. That's the real issue. ;)
Kevin
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
So .. what of the "human rights" of the direct victims of crime, those that are injured directly, or frightened for the rest of their lives?? what of the "human rights" of those that have to "clean up" after crime .. and I include medical, police, social workers, families, counsellors ... and probably more .. all who, it appears .. have to do away with their "right" to a decent life just so the vociferous criminal huggers and do-gooders have something to posture about.
It is the left wing luvvies who posture IMHO
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Interestingly there are either 7 or 13 other EU countries that also have no vote for prisoners. So Britain isn't the only EU country. Spain does allow the vote apparently!
Britain should withdraw from the European Court of Rights for Criminals and Terrorists.
Prisoners at Alcatraz had three basic rights: food, clothing and shelter. Anything else was considered a priviledge, and had to be earned.
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
It's not like they are going to be waterboarded or anything..
Prisons exist for the removal of human rights, as punishment.
The logical conclusion to your argument is that we set the prisoners free just in case their right not to be locked up is violated.
Our government / judicial system should be in a position to specify exactly what rights prisoners on our soil are entitled to, IMHO. That's the real issue. ;)
Kevin
prison exists surely to rehabilitate offenders not take away human rights and integrate them back into society not distance them from it, i don't see how removing their right to vote helps with that - you're just creating more people caring less and less about their society - and the EU will simply impose fines - and it'll cost us milions as every prisoner who wants to vote takes their case to Brussels at taxpayers expense :(
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
It's not like they are going to be waterboarded or anything..
Prisons exist for the removal of human rights, as punishment.
The logical conclusion to your argument is that we set the prisoners free just in case their right not to be locked up is violated.
Our government / judicial system should be in a position to specify exactly what rights prisoners on our soil are entitled to, IMHO. That's the real issue. ;)
Kevin
prison exists surely to rehabilitate offenders not take away human rights and integrate them back into society not distance them from it, i don't see how removing their right to vote helps with that - you're just creating more people caring less and less about their society - and the EU will simply impose fines - and it'll cost us milions as every prisoner who wants to vote takes their case to Brussels at taxpayers expense :(
Disagree profoundly.
Prison exists to PUNISH and DETER.
Rehabilitation is the carrot dangled by left wing luvvies trying to appease.
You cannot "rehabilitate" a terrorist, a mass murderer or a paedophile. .. and numerous other "types" of criminal. The sooner we stop trying and turn prisons back into places of PUNISHMENT rather than holiday camps.. the more effective they will become.
If prison is so "rehabilitive" .. just how come the drug lords continue to run their emopires from within prison ???
Good "rehabilitation" that !!! NOT
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
It's not like they are going to be waterboarded or anything..
Prisons exist for the removal of human rights, as punishment.
The logical conclusion to your argument is that we set the prisoners free just in case their right not to be locked up is violated.
Our government / judicial system should be in a position to specify exactly what rights prisoners on our soil are entitled to, IMHO. That's the real issue. ;)
Kevin
prison exists surely to rehabilitate offenders not take away human rights and integrate them back into society not distance them from it, i don't see how removing their right to vote helps with that - you're just creating more people caring less and less about their society - and the EU will simply impose fines - and it'll cost us milions as every prisoner who wants to vote takes their case to Brussels at taxpayers expense :(
Disagree profoundly.
Prison exists to PUNISH and DETER.
Rehabilitation is the carrot dangled by left wing luvvies trying to appease.
You cannot "rehabilitate" a terrorist, a mass murderer or a paedophile. .. and numerous other "types" of criminal. The sooner we stop trying and turn prisons back into places of PUNISHMENT rather than holiday camps.. the more effective they will become.
If prison is so "rehabilitive" .. just how come the drug lords continue to run their emopires from within prison ???
Good "rehabilitation" that !!! NOT
so everyone in prison needs to be treated as if they were the worst of society regardless of being a shoplifter or a mass murderer? :-?
obviously some people are beyond help but you cant treat every inmate like they're the scum of the earth....actually, try it for 10 years and see if re-offending stats go up or down :o
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i'm a bit uneasy with us all being so happy that we'll freely disregard human rights, and what really irks is that a lot of people are so worried about prisoners getting a vote (which, as albs says is inevitable) yet they dont vote themselves...so now its important, but not that important that more than 1 in 3 of us cant get off our arse and vote when theres an election?
pointless posturing from DC trying to look tough to the Mail and Express readers in my opinion ::)
It's not like they are going to be waterboarded or anything..
Prisons exist for the removal of human rights, as punishment.
The logical conclusion to your argument is that we set the prisoners free just in case their right not to be locked up is violated.
Our government / judicial system should be in a position to specify exactly what rights prisoners on our soil are entitled to, IMHO. That's the real issue. ;)
Kevin
prison exists surely to rehabilitate offenders not take away human rights and integrate them back into society not distance them from it, i don't see how removing their right to vote helps with that - you're just creating more people caring less and less about their society - and the EU will simply impose fines - and it'll cost us milions as every prisoner who wants to vote takes their case to Brussels at taxpayers expense :(
Disagree profoundly.
Prison exists to PUNISH and DETER.
Rehabilitation is the carrot dangled by left wing luvvies trying to appease.
You cannot "rehabilitate" a terrorist, a mass murderer or a paedophile. .. and numerous other "types" of criminal. The sooner we stop trying and turn prisons back into places of PUNISHMENT rather than holiday camps.. the more effective they will become.
If prison is so "rehabilitive" .. just how come the drug lords continue to run their emopires from within prison ???
Good "rehabilitation" that !!! NOT
so everyone in prison needs to be treated as if they were the worst of society regardless of being a shoplifter or a mass murderer? :-?
obviously some people are beyond help but you cant treat every inmate like they're the scum of the earth....actually, try it for 10 years and see if re-offending stats go up or down :o
I can see where you are coming from BJ, but recently on tv I heard an ex-con, who is now a probation officer, say that he had never heard someone inside worrying about a right to vote. In fact he stated he, and no-one else, cared a sod about voting. They didn't expect to anyway!
So I do believe this is a nonsense legal argument by Brussels with a 'bee in their bonnet' about a problem that doesn't exist. Well it didn't until those in Brussels raised the issue, and now criminals are coming out of the woodwork to claim compensation for not having the right to vote whilst inside!! :o :o Madeness!! ::) ::) ::) ::) >:( >:(
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
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came from the Daily Mail thinking the sky's falling down again, probably :o
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
What a very good question Varche :y :y :y :y :y :y
It would be very interesting to know!
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lizzie - i make you right when you say most prisoners neither care nor will bother voting, so if thats the case why not go along with it and save the taxpayers money from the pockets of well fed euro lawyers?
Cameron playing to the cameras as Varche says :(
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
I've nothing against rehabilitation and remorse .. but that should not be the excuse for molly-coddling and being "ultra-nice".
Some years back I had to visit the Miliatary Prison at Colchester .. as an Escort .. not an inmate .. thank god !!! Over lunch in the SNCO's Mess we got talking to an RSM and this subject came up .. his answer was exceedingly simple and I've always remembered it....
"The only rehab these guys need is the thought that if they reoffend they get to spend double the time with me. End Of."
His "wing" had the lowest reoffending rate of the whole unit.... single digit % I believe. Perhaps he had a point ???
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
I've nothing against rehabilitation and remorse .. but that should not be the excuse for molly-coddling and being "ultra-nice".
Some years back I had to visit the Miliatary Prison at Colchester .. as an Escort .. not an inmate .. thank god !!! Over lunch in the SNCO's Mess we got talking to an RSM and this subject came up .. his answer was exceedingly simple and I've always remembered it....
"The only rehab these guys need is the thought that if they reoffend they get to spend double the time with me. End Of."
His "wing" had the lowest reoffending rate of the whole unit.... single digit % I believe. Perhaps he had a point ???
That is how it should be Entwood without question! :y :y :y
Our criminal system is far too soft, and I take the opportunity of making that viewpoint clear when assessing criminal cases with the CPS (South East), with senior Kent Police officers, lawyers, and other interested parties! I cannot or must not say too much, but the softness goes way beyond offenders appearing in court!! >:( >:(
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lizzie - i make you right when you say most prisoners neither care nor will bother voting, so if that's the case why not go along with it and save the taxpayers money from the pockets of well fed euro lawyers?
Cameron playing to the cameras as Varche says :(
But if we give in, yet again, then Brussels is gaining yet more power! Why should we not stand up for British rights and viewpoints even if it does cost a few bob in legal costs. All we need to do is fight our corner fiercely just once and maybe Brussels will back off!
On the point of Cameron, I think you are judging him unfairly. Do not forget he was in favour of a referendum, until the Labour Government destroyed that as a legal possibility by signing the Lisbon Treaty! >:( >:( >:( DC really does mean business over Europe, in line with Conservative values and principles. I do wish though Churchill was at the helm in his heyday! Even in the context of modern times he would not let Brussels push the British around 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
I've nothing against rehabilitation and remorse .. but that should not be the excuse for molly-coddling and being "ultra-nice".
Some years back I had to visit the Miliatary Prison at Colchester .. as an Escort .. not an inmate .. thank god !!! Over lunch in the SNCO's Mess we got talking to an RSM and this subject came up .. his answer was exceedingly simple and I've always remembered it....
"The only rehab these guys need is the thought that if they reoffend they get to spend double the time with me. End Of."
His "wing" had the lowest reoffending rate of the whole unit.... single digit % I believe. Perhaps he had a point ???
You are sooooo right....I saw a television documentary a few years ago about Colchester....good grief....no wonder their re-offending figures are almost non existant. ;)
And those offenders that were interviewed did agree that whilst harsh, it made them see sense and they felt better for it :y
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1. Iirc the case originated from one prisoner and his human rights lawyer going through the whole legal system until they got to Strasbourg. Compo driven. ;)
2. The debate imo shouldnt be about the rights or wrongs of prisoners having the vote, but the much more important issue of whether or not the UK Parliament should have the right to make the decision on behalf of the UK electorate.
3.Colchester miltary correction facility - ask STMO, I think he may have more knowledge on the subject than the rest of us put together. :-X ::) ;D
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1. Iirc the case originated from one prisoner and his human rights lawyer going through the whole legal system until they got to Strasbourg. Compo driven. ;)
2. The debate imo shouldnt be about the rights or wrongs of prisoners having the vote, but the much more important issue of whether or not the UK Parliament should have the right to make the decision on behalf of the UK electorate.
3.Colchester miltary correction facility - ask STMO, I think he may have more knowledge on the subject than the rest of us put together. :-X ::) ;D
Amen to that. I'm sure we all realise that the outcome will make the root of break all difference to how the elections operate (although it raises an interesting question of whether a prisoner would vote in his home constituency or the one in which he is currently "resident").
The issue is, of course, whether we allow a bunch of unelected and corrupt cheese-eaters to veto the decisions of an elected chamber. >:(
Kevin
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Banjaxx is of course right. Prison should be all about rehabiliation and remorse. Without those then the person is just going to be a serial offender and back inside. I still think part of the punishment (which should help the offender realise the error of their ways) is a removal of rights that law abiding citizens enjoy.
Lizzie. I have just had a thought. As Britain isn't the only country in the EU that doesn't allow prisoners to vote (at least 7 other EU countries don't) just how did this issue materialise.
- Prompted by the current Uk government to give Cameron some much needed tough guy kudos?
Quite probably
- Prompted by prisoners ? Don't think so
- Prompted by the European Court ? Don't think so as there are too many other countries in the same position.
- Prompted by a vested interest human rights group? possibly.
Does anyone actually know where it is supposed to have originated from?
I've nothing against rehabilitation and remorse .. but that should not be the excuse for molly-coddling and being "ultra-nice".
Some years back I had to visit the Miliatary Prison at Colchester .. as an Escort .. not an inmate .. thank god !!! Over lunch in the SNCO's Mess we got talking to an RSM and this subject came up .. his answer was exceedingly simple and I've always remembered it....
"The only rehab these guys need is the thought that if they reoffend they get to spend double the time with me. End Of."
His "wing" had the lowest reoffending rate of the whole unit.... single digit % I believe. Perhaps he had a point ???
isn't the removal of freedom the punishment tho? its tempting to agree that tough prison regimes would solve the reoffending rate - i doubt thats the case tho - education, escape from poverty, counselling, solving alcohol and drug abuse issues - isn't that a safer bet? i dont want my car nicked or house broken into anymore than the next guy - which is why i'd rather we concentrated on a smarter way out of the cycle............we are truly dumb - it doesnt sound like anything a politician would be brave enough to do because they'd instantly be pilloried by the press -but almost all studies tends to bear this out - we just wont do it because it doesn't play well with Joe Public, muppets the lot of us :o
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Well, it just so happens that Ken Clarke is pushing that agenda very hard Banjax, so I look forward to hearing you say your voting fot the "progressive" Tories at the next election. :y ;D
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Well, it just so happens that Ken Clarke is pushing that agenda very hard Banjax, so I look forward to hearing you say your voting fot the "progressive" Tories at the next election. :y ;D
i don't toe any party line, Albs - i just vote for the smartest, fairest and most trustworthy politician :y
good for old Ken tho - always felt he'd be more comfortable on the left ;)
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i don't toe any party line, Albs - i just vote for the smartest, fairest and most trustworthy politician :y
I wish you luck in your quest. ;D
kevin
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Well, it just so happens that Ken Clarke is pushing that agenda very hard Banjax, so I look forward to hearing you say your voting fot the "progressive" Tories at the next election. :y ;D
i don't toe any party line, Albs - i just vote for the smartest, fairest and most trustworthy politician :y
So, you could possibly vote Tory if you agreed with more of their policies than the others ?! ::)
good for old Ken tho - always felt he'd be more comfortable on the left ;)
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He couldnt possibly move over to the left, he is economically competent. ;) :).........daft as a brush in most other respects though. ;) ;D
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i don't toe any party line, Albs - i just vote for the smartest, fairest and most trustworthy politician :y
I wish you luck in your quest. ;D
kevin
i like a challenge ;D ;D ;D
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If your looking for smart or fair within Labour or the SNP then you must like a challenge bordering on the impossible. ;D ;D
As for trustworthy - no idea where you could start looking for that in any of the parties. ::)
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
More cost effective would have been to have kept the colonies and transported his like. On balance the Ozzies have turned out OK, all things considered :y
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
Hirst does seem an odious, unrepentant character, doesn't change the facts tho. :y
and i know you're joking about capital punishment, right.......Liz....tell me you're joking :o
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
Hirst does seem an odious, unrepentant character, doesn't change the facts tho. :y
and i know you're joking about capital punishment, right.......Liz....tell me you're joking :o
Anyone who is proved to be without any reasonable doubt to have committed a murder, and is of sound mind above the age of 21, should "be taken to a place of execution and hung by the neck until dead". No I am not joking! ;) ;)
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
Hirst does seem an odious, unrepentant character, doesn't change the facts tho. :y
and i know you're joking about capital punishment, right.......Liz....tell me you're joking :o
Anyone who is proved to be without any reasonable doubt to have committed a murder, and is of sound mind above the age of 21, should "be taken to a place of execution and hung by the neck until dead". No I am not joking! ;) ;)
Iran, Iraq, China, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, North Korea all agree with you Liz :o
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
Hirst does seem an odious, unrepentant character, doesn't change the facts tho. :y
and i know you're joking about capital punishment, right.......Liz....tell me you're joking :o
Anyone who is proved to be without any reasonable doubt to have committed a murder, and is of sound mind above the age of 21, should "be taken to a place of execution and hung by the neck until dead". No I am not joking! ;) ;)
Iran, Iraq, China, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, North Korea all agree with you Liz :o
So are they wrong to do so BJ? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
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I hope this will be the start of this country standing up to Europe...
The loss of liberty is not enough of a punishment, reoffending rates DO prove this...
The prisoners claim that it is a breech of their human rights to not have the vote, which IMO begs the question... What about the human rights of their victim???
The question has been asked how did this all start??? This was all started by a prisoner by the name of John Hirst, an Axe Murderer and Arsonist....
Right :y :y :y Well doesn't that prove hanging should come back? If the death penalty was in force Hirst couldn't have raised this issue, and it wouldn't matter if he could vote or not!! ::) ::) ::) ;)
Hirst does seem an odious, unrepentant character, doesn't change the facts tho. :y
and i know you're joking about capital punishment, right.......Liz....tell me you're joking :o
Anyone who is proved to be without any reasonable doubt to have committed a murder, and is of sound mind above the age of 21, should "be taken to a place of execution and hung by the neck until dead". No I am not joking! ;) ;)
Iran, Iraq, China, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, North Korea all agree with you Liz :o
So are they wrong to do so BJ? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
I am with you all the way Lizzie.
Quoting countries like Iran, China etc, which do not have democratic governments or the justice system of the uk is not on the same playing field. Those countries are nowhere in line with the uk and cannot be compared with the uk.
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they still have capital punishment - unlike europe. only repressive backward countries still subscribe to this barbaric practice.
some less developed states in the USA included :y
luckily theres no danger of us ever bringing back capital punishment 8-)
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luckily theres no danger of us ever bringing back capital punishment 8-)
I'm with you on that one. There does need to be punishment, though. See it as an important stage in the rehabilitation process, if you like. ;)
Kevin
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If it is true, then there is a delicious irony in Australia where you can apparently be jailed for NOT voting. ;D
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If it is true, then there is a delicious irony in Australia where you can apparently be jailed for NOT voting. ;D
i think you should :y
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i cant wait to see all the court cases this is going to bring.hopefully then when we have to pay out millions to the scum bags this country is going to wake up. bottom line is when we agreed to join we agreed to there rules so we can not just pick the rules we like.we should never have joined in the first place we pay pay and get very little in return.
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i cant wait to see all the court cases this is going to bring.hopefully then when we have to pay out millions to the scum bags this country is going to wake up. bottom line is when we agreed to join we agreed to there rules so we can not just pick the rules we like.we should never have joined in the first place we pay pay and get very little in return.
Unlike the Spanish, French, Germans, Italians... ::)
It has gone too far, IMHO.
Kevin
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i cant wait to see all the court cases this is going to bring.hopefully then when we have to pay out millions to the scum bags this country is going to wake up. bottom line is when we agreed to join we agreed to there rules so we can not just pick the rules we like.we should never have joined in the first place we pay pay and get very little in return.
Unlike the Spanish, French, Germans, Italians... ::)
It has gone too far, IMHO.
Kevin
THat is also the point; we, the British public, did not agree to join :( :( ;)
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i cant wait to see all the court cases this is going to bring.hopefully then when we have to pay out millions to the scum bags this country is going to wake up. bottom line is when we agreed to join we agreed to there rules so we can not just pick the rules we like.we should never have joined in the first place we pay pay and get very little in return.
Unlike the Spanish, French, Germans, Italians... ::)
It has gone too far, IMHO.
Kevin
THat is also the point; we, the British public, did not agree to join :( :( ;)
true but we let it happen.