Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: alfie on 01 March 2011, 07:45:42
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This goverment wants to get involved in another countries civil war yet again. Why, haven,t we not learnt the lessons of previous visits to this part of the world. It,s nothing to do with us,let them sort it out themselves.
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This goverment wants to get involved in another countries civil war yet again. Why, haven,t we not learnt the lessons of previous visits to this part of the world. It,s nothing to do with us,let them sort it out themselves.
Normally Alfie I would agree entirely.
However in this case the Libyan opposition, which include a number of Libyan Government officials including military representives, are inviting and pleading for outside help to put down a dictatorship that is harming its own citizens. This is being organised through the UN, where there has been a unanimous vote to take action.
In the circumstances I believe it is right for 'us', which includes other Arab states, external to Libya to take action to avoid further heavy loss of human life. I often wish that such concerted action could have been available to bring a halt to the antics of Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s!
Although al Qudafi, although completely bonkers and dangerous, is not comparable to Hitler, he is a very distinct threat to the region and the Libyan people. ;)
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I'm 75% with Alfie on this although there are strategic reasons, aside from the humanitarian, for doing so - the stability of the oil supply and positioning of a regime sympathetic to the 'West' being but two.
I would be concerned about some EU leaders (including Cameron) and others attempting to adopt the role of 'Kingmaker' in this part of the region however.
Although I consider the UN to be a corrupt worthless organisation for the most part, if intervention is to be made in this, then it should be done wholly under the UN banner.
As Alfie rightly says - we really need to be aware of the fate of those who previously attempted to interfere in this part of the world.
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this "democracy virus"tm spreading across the middle east is happening in an age where we have 24hr news, social networks, mobile phones - its being played out in front of the world - its no different from our own bloody history, we're just so much more interconnected globally today its difficult for us to keep out - we befriended this nutter, like we befriended Saddam et al - now right or wrong we've made our bed, we cant live without oil - every drop of which is more precious than any human blood, so, if necessary we'll storm in to secure it - we have no choice - we'll leave countries alone and mind our own business unless they have oil :o
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I'm 75% with Alfie on this although there are strategic reasons, aside from the humanitarian, for doing so - the stability of the oil supply and positioning of a regime sympathetic to the 'West' being but two.
I would be concerned about some EU leaders (including Cameron) and others attempting to adopt the role of 'Kingmaker' in this part of the region however.
Although I consider the UN to be a corrupt worthless organisation for the most part, if intervention is to be made in this, then it should be done wholly under the UN banner.
As Alfie rightly says - we really need to be aware of the fate of those who previously attempted to interfere in this part of the world.
Couldn't agree more. If the UN can agree some wordings and even actions then Britain can play its part along with every other country and not independently. Course it won't happen, we just love to be in there .
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* UN is worthless ? yes.. they watch slaughters if there is no economical profit..
* spending money for that region and messing with them ? bad idea.. who comes after the tyrant wont be so different.. may not bomb people but arrest them instead..
personally I would look what US wants to do..they are not after the beautiful eyes of people ;D
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Although I consider the UN to be a corrupt worthless organisation for the most part...
Zulu, how can you be so critical of that virtuous organisation? Why, as we speak, the UN's Human Rights Council is poised to adopt a report chock-full of praise for Libya's human rights record!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
[/sarc off] ;)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/28/council-poised-adopt-report-praising-libyas-human-rights-record/#
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Unfortunately someone does need to step in... The situation is very volatile and could easily spread into other UN Countries so the UN has to remove the nutter from power... Forcefully if necessary ;)
I don't agree with our armed forces getting involved in any other countries battles but sometimes it is needed. Hopefully this will just be a quick removal of the leaders and then leave :-/
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Unfortunately someone does need to step in... The situation is very volatile and could easily spread into other UN Countries so the UN has to remove the nutter from power... Forcefully if necessary ;)
I don't agree with our armed forces getting involved in any other countries battles but sometimes it is needed. Hopefully this will just be a quick removal of the leaders and then leave :-/
Chris , I'm sure you know how is sticky mud ;D :y
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Why don't we just take back our empire? The world ran much more smoothly when we were in charge. ;D
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It seems to me that the empire has turned the tables on us,and are now taking us over.
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Why don't we just take back our empire? The world ran much more smoothly when we were in charge. ;D
your settlers/immigrants already have an empire and one is enough for world STMO ;D ;D ;D :y
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How can we get involved in any UN police action,we have no army navy air force,to speak of,unless we nip around to the local scrap yard to save a few tanks etc.
Will our PM call up the reserves and the TA,s,we just can,t do this kind of thing anymore.
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The answer to that question may lie in Camerons statement this morning "I have spoken to the French pm"......iirc he devolved our defence to them a few months ago. How the mighty have fallen. ::)
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Well all their guns are brand new and never been fired.
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Well all their guns are brand new and never been fired.
But may have a few dents and scratches from being dropped :-X ::) ;D
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you look after your
your family
your friends
your country
we should keep our noses out of everybody elses business
oh hang on, they have oil ;)
it wouldn't suprise me if the powers to be at the CIA and MI6 have been giving a little "encouragement" to this new wave of democracy ;) ;)
lets be honest here ............. the west can only profit from all this unrest
the price of oil goes up ........... the govement of the day shafts us all in taxes >:( >:(
when it all calms down, these new democracys will show there support be giving "Very Lucrative" contracts to those who "helped" them in there time of need ;) just look at the amount of money the yanks have made out of Iraq since it started to calm down over there ;)
imho the big picture here has $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs all over it ;)
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How very very true,
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How can we get involved in any UN police action,we have no army navy air force,to speak of,unless we nip around to the local scrap yard to save a few tanks etc.
Will our PM call up the reserves and the TA,s,we just can,t do this kind of thing anymore.
Prepare to be astonished. AFTER the military cuts being outlined today Britain will still have the fourth biggest military spending in the world.
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you look after your
your family
your friends
your country
we should keep our noses out of everybody elses business
oh hang on, they have oil ;)
it wouldn't suprise me if the powers to be at the CIA and MI6 have been giving a little "encouragement" to this new wave of democracy ;) ;)
lets be honest here ............. the west can only profit from all this unrest
the price of oil goes up ........... the govement of the day shafts us all in taxes >:( >:(
when it all calms down, these new democracys will show there support be giving "Very Lucrative" contracts to those who "helped" them in there time of need ;) just look at the amount of money the yanks have made out of Iraq since it started to calm down over there ;)
imho the big picture here has $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs all over it ;)
you look after your
your family
your friends
your country
we should keep our noses out of everybody elses business
I would agree with much of that Tiger - after all if things are not stable at 'home' how can we realistically expect to help others abroad?
However (there's always at least one where these matters are concerned) it would be irresponsible for this government not to be concerned with what's happening in North Africa and the Middle East.
Our national livelihood and the stability of not only out own country but of Europe and the world, as a whole, is dependent of the uninterrupted flow of oil from that region. (Amongst other things of course)
lets be honest here ............. the west can only profit from all this unrest
I'm not sure about that one Tiger as the result of this sea-change in the status quo of the region may have profound negative consequences for those of us in the West.
when it all calms down, these new democracys will show there support be giving "Very Lucrative" contracts to those who "helped" them in there time of need ;) just look at the amount of money the yanks have made out of Iraq since it started to calm down over there
I think that because so many of the countries in the region are controlled by tribes, acting in concert or at the behest of a dictator (benevolent or otherwise), the notion that democracy ( if there is such a thing) will ever take root in that region is misplaced, sadly.
imho the big picture here has $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs all over it ;)
Irrespective of the wishes of the United States, I would think that the holders of the Yuan will be the ultimate winners where these African matters are concerned.
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you look after your
your family
your friends
your country
we should keep our noses out of everybody elses business
oh hang on, they have oil ;)
it wouldn't suprise me if the powers to be at the CIA and MI6 have been giving a little "encouragement" to this new wave of democracy ;) ;)
lets be honest here ............. the west can only profit from all this unrest
the price of oil goes up ........... the govement of the day shafts us all in taxes >:( >:(
when it all calms down, these new democracys will show there support be giving "Very Lucrative" contracts to those who "helped" them in there time of need ;) just look at the amount of money the yanks have made out of Iraq since it started to calm down over there ;)
imho the big picture here has $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs all over it ;)
you look after your
your family
your friends
your country
we should keep our noses out of everybody elses business
I would agree with much of that Tiger - after all if things are not stable at 'home' how can we realistically expect to help others abroad?
However (there's always at least one where these matters are concerned) it would be irresponsible for this government not to be concerned with what's happening in North Africa and the Middle East.
Our national livelihood and the stability of not only out own country but of Europe and the world, as a whole, is dependent of the uninterrupted flow of oil from that region. (Amongst other things of course)
lets be honest here ............. the west can only profit from all this unrest
I'm not sure about that one Tiger as the result of this sea-change in the status quo of the region may have profound negative consequences for those of us in the West.
when it all calms down, these new democracys will show there support be giving "Very Lucrative" contracts to those who "helped" them in there time of need ;) just look at the amount of money the yanks have made out of Iraq since it started to calm down over there
I think that because so many of the countries in the region are controlled by tribes, acting in concert or at the behest of a dictator (benevolent or otherwise), the notion that democracy ( if there is such a thing) will ever take root in that region is misplaced, sadly.
imho the big picture here has $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs all over it ;)
Irrespective of the wishes of the United States, I would think that the holders of the Yuan will be the ultimate winners where these African matters are concerned.
No need for the last part of that sentence, Den.
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How can we get involved in any UN police action,we have no army navy air force,to speak of,unless we nip around to the local scrap yard to save a few tanks etc.
Will our PM call up the reserves and the TA,s,we just can,t do this kind of thing anymore.
Prepare to be astonished. AFTER the military cuts being outlined today Britain will still have the fourth biggest military spending in the world.
Indeed! :y :y
That of course is where the pacifists would come in, let alone those wanting more hospitals, schools, etc, asking do we need such a military capacity now?
I would say yes we do, all the time mankind is as it is and produces from time to time a great threat to our national freedom and democracy. However, I would recognise the fact that throughout history those with military might have been compelled to use it!
This is still as relevant today as it was in the days of the British Empire when it has caused great wars! :o :o :o
The gunboats have gone, but the firepower of each warship, submarine and warplane is awesome and should never be underestimated. So yes, we can still pack a punch alongside (and I hope it will now always be alongside, within the UN) the other democratic countries military :y :y
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Yes. But we cannot pack a punch everywhere in the world, at once. ;D
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Yes. But we cannot pack a punch everywhere in the world, at once. ;D
We never could! We never want to now either! :D :D :y :y
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface. ;)
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Irrespective of the wishes of the United States, I would think that the holders of the Yuan will be the ultimate winners where these African matters are concerned.
No need for the last part of that sentence, Den.
I think you are quite correct there Steve :-* - probably sooner rather than later. :-/ :-/
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface. ;)
Yes Albs, it is very true that countries without any commodities have never attracted the interest of the empires or world powers throughout history.
Why should they, as it would involve the possible loss of the military powers resources / lives, and great financial cost for what? :( :(
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But we (in the west ) dont intervene for our own benefit. We only assist where needed to advance the cause of freedom and democracy. ::) ;)
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But we (in the west ) dont intervene for our own benefit. We only assist where needed to advance the cause of freedom and democracy. ::) ;)
Of course we do Albs! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface. ;)
I'm not convinced that oil, or rather lack of it, comes into the question as far as Zimbabwe is concerned. Rather, the West has felt for a long time now that any African adventure would be suicidal due to the racial and rich/poor overtones. When the chips are down, the African Union would always back one of its own. However, the northern African states are seen as more Arabic than Black African and do not command the same support. However, that's merely my opinion. ;)
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface.
I wonder if our government has double standards regarding who it helps to overthrow.
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface.
I wonder if our government has double standards regarding who it helps to overthrow.
It always has and always will Alfie ::) ::) :D :D :D ;)
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The thought occurred to me this morning while watching more coverage of events in Libya etc - I bet there are a lot of people in Zimbabwe who wish that country had plenty of oil under its surface. ;)
I'm not convinced that oil, or rather lack of it, comes into the question as far as Zimbabwe is concerned. Rather, the West has felt for a long time now that any African adventure would be suicidal due to the racial and rich/poor overtones. When the chips are down, the African Union would always back one of its own. However, the northern African states are seen as more Arabic than Black African and do not command the same support. However, that's merely my opinion. ;)
There is a lot of truth in that Nick, and as in the case of the French, we do not want to be seen to go back to our colonial days. We do not want that kind of hassle anymore, and this time for no reward! ::) ::) ;)
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You may be right Nick, im not sure. Might depend on just how much oil was there ?
I do think it shameful though that what is being done in Zimbabwe is largely ignored now by the mass media. I would bet my last penny that if the skin colours of those oppressing/ being oppressed were reversed, the whole world would be falling down on their heads. The pressure from every available source (pop concerts to papal preaching) would have reached a deafening crescendo by now.
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You may be right Nick, im not sure. Might depend on just how much oil was there ?
I do think it shameful though that what is being done in Zimbabwe is largely ignored now by the mass media. I would bet my last penny that if the skin colours of those oppressing/ being oppressed were reversed, the whole world would be falling down on their heads. The pressure from every available source (pop concerts to papal preaching) would have reached a deafening crescendo by now.
Zimbabwe was never going to work when the white 1% of the population owns three quarters of the land, systems that are demonstrably racist, prejudice, bigotted, elitist or oppressive will always collapse.
And I've never heard anyone complain about the 100's of thousands of white zimbabweans coming into this country as refugees, presumably if they were black we'd call them illegal immigrants?
Having said all that, mugabe is an oppressive, murderous tyrant allowed to gain power and popular support precisely because the white minority tried to control the country since we brutally colonised the area over 100 years ago :o
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Much of what you say is true, but what "we" did over 100 years ago in no way justifies the reign of terror Mugabe is currently waging on his own people- both black and white. ;)
And if it was a predominantly white regime, the international community would undoubtedly take a very different approach to the problem imo. Postive discrimination gone too far ?
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You may be right Nick, im not sure. Might depend on just how much oil was there ?
I do think it shameful though that what is being done in Zimbabwe is largely ignored now by the mass media. I would bet my last penny that if the skin colours of those oppressing/ being oppressed were reversed, the whole world would be falling down on their heads. The pressure from every available source (pop concerts to papal preaching) would have reached a deafening crescendo by now.
Zimbabwe was never going to work when the white 1% of the population owns three quarters of the land, systems that are demonstrably racist, prejudice, bigotted, elitist or oppressive will always collapse.
And I've never heard anyone complain about the 100's of thousands of white zimbabweans coming into this country as refugees, presumably if they were black we'd call them illegal immigrants?
Having said all that, mugabe is an oppressive, murderous tyrant allowed to gain power and popular support precisely because the white minority tried to control the country since we brutally colonised the area over 100 years ago :o
Took a few years for the British empire to collapse though. ::)
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Zimbabwe was never going to work when the white 1% of the population owns three quarters of the land, systems that are demonstrably racist, prejudice, bigotted, elitist or oppressive will always collapse.
And I've never heard anyone complain about the 100's of thousands of white zimbabweans coming into this country as refugees, presumably if they were black we'd call them illegal immigrants?
Having said all that, mugabe is an oppressive, murderous tyrant allowed to gain power and popular support precisely because the white minority tried to control the country since we brutally colonised the area over 100 years ago :o
was never going to work when the white 1% of the population owns three quarters of the land, systems that are demonstrably racist, prejudice, bigotted, elitist or oppressive will always collapse
Yes I agree to a point B but now that Bob has put the boot on the other foot little seems to have changed as the majority of those who are white or not of the ZANU-PF persuasion, seem to be numbered amongst the oppressed.
It's quite possible that had certain parts of Africa not been colonised in this way little progress would have been made towards some form of unified and cohesive economic structure within those countries.
With the tribal system being so much to the fore there I have no doubt that even in the absence of colonisation there would have been more than sufficient tensions displayed by the native peoples to have resulted in many of those examples of oppression, violence and exploitation so often blamed on the non natives who settled there.