Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 26 March 2011, 17:28:40
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Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
...Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html
Why do I keep thinking that Cast-Iron Dave's ego-adventure could go t*ts up? ::) ::)
Update:
Why did I see nothing in the mainstream media about this protest yesterday?
Sharia Law for Libya Protest Shuts Down Oxford Street, London
http://thinkafricapress.com/video/sharia-law-libya-protest-shuts-down-oxford-street-london
:o :o :(
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This is old news.
Gaddafi has been claiming since the start of the uprising that Al Qaeda are supporting the rebels, and the Allies have been surprisingly quiet about it. It comes as no surprise they have got those links, and if you are fighting a regime like Gaddafi's why not? You need as many friends as you can get in the Islamic world, and especially trained fighters.
We may not like them that's for sure, but I think we have all been around long enough to know that in politics, and especially in times of war, strange bedfellows get together, although this one is not that strange!! In history the West has worked with some strange regimes, and Allies, like al Qaeda themselves, during times of peace and conflict to secure their interests. So why shouldn't desperate Arabs who, only just over a week ago, were far from certain that they would get any help from any quarter.
The West will just have to watch and see how it all pans out! ::) ::) ;)
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
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Of course this is yet another thing for the so called coalition to worry themselves about.
As I see it unless Gadafi(and son) somehow "die" then maintaining nothing more than a no-fly zone and a naval blockade will help consolidate the partition of the country into two of the three traditional territories that form Libya, Tripolitania in the west and Cyrenaica in the east, with a desert-like southern region that would be out of the control of either one of these two areas, and become a haven for Al Qaeda. It might just be more desirable to perpetuate a dictator like Gaddafi in power. ;D ;D
Incidentally the "no fly zone" that the UN had for Bosnia - Herzogovenia lasted a staggering 8 years. How much will that cost the coalition if it goes on for that length of time! :o
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an Al-Qaeda-influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
thats right NB there is only 2 options in your world view, name a country and bingo - heres your two options:
UK: capitilism or communism take your pick
Libya: dictator or terrorist
that'll be the big bumper book of swivel-eyed truisms then. £2.99 in all good bookshops
;D ;D ;D
please dont change NB - this is a golden age for your stuff - everyone should read these......thoughts - Twitter perhaps? ;D :y
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an Al-Qaeda-influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
To lead on from my first answer to your post, you are now forgetting one important fact. The international air forces are there to protect Libyans from military attacks on them by Gaddafi. No regime change sought, no taking over the country, but just a case of letting the Libyans decide their own future.
If that includes an al Qaeda regime, well the West may not like it, but that is what they are choosing. Not our business thank God, even though it may not suit "us"! ::) ::)
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ahhh... finally some deeper toughts ::) ::)
what you think will happen in an islamic country if you take the powers down ::) where the only thing left in their hands are islamic bounds :(
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an Al-Qaeda-influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
To lead on from my first answer to your post, you are now forgetting one important fact. The international air forces are there to protect Libyans from military attacks on them by Gaddafi. No regime change sought, no taking over the country, but just a case of letting the Libyans decide their own future.
If that includes an al Qaeda regime, well the West may not like it, but that is what they are choosing. Not our business thank God, even though it may not suit "us"! ::) ::)
And I bet you believe in the tooth fairy too! ;D ;D
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
thats right NB there is only 2 options in your world view, name a country and bingo - heres your two options:
UK: capitilism or communism take your pick
Libya: dictator or terrorist
that'll be the big bumper book of swivel-eyed truisms then. £2.99 in all good bookshops
;D ;D ;D
please dont change NB - this is a golden age for your stuff - everyone should read these......thoughts - Twitter perhaps? ;D :y
Twitter sounds good.
When they bring out idiotter, that'll be for you.
::)
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an Al-Qaeda-influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
To lead on from my first answer to your post, you are now forgetting one important fact. The international air forces are there to protect Libyans from military attacks on them by Gaddafi. No regime change sought, no taking over the country, but just a case of letting the Libyans decide their own future.
If that includes an al Qaeda regime, well the West may not like it, but that is what they are choosing. Not our business thank God, even though it may not suit "us"! ::) ::)
And I bet you believe in the tooth fairy too! ;D ;D
No I do not Varche, but that is the international approach that the west is tied into. What is wrong with that? We either believe that they, the Libyans, should have a chance of deciding their political future or the west jumps in, yet again, and rightly gets criticized for interfering in another Islamic countries politics. ;)
I definately get a feeling on here that because the Libyans are foreign, or even worse, Arabs, they are not capable of seeking self detirmination. Very strange, they are humans like the rest of us and desire the same things, even if they are a little behind the west on that one. ;) ;)
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If only our aims were so simple and altruistic.
Firstly we only get involved when we have something to gain. There have been many instances in recent times where countries have been having uprisings, civil war or just a plain murderous regime. We sit back and do nothing. In fact it often doesn't even get a mention on the British News. Unlike our veritable lotilla of reporters from every channel in every town and Libyan settlement for example.
Secondly we have a huge number of folk on the payroll actively covertly steering outcomes in countries all over the world whether those governments want it or not.
For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
No, there is nothing wrong with self determination but it ought to be self not external government installed puppet as in so many other scenarios "we" have been involved in.
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
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If only our aims were so simple and altruistic.
Firstly we only get involved when we have something to gain. There have been many instances in recent times where countries have been having uprisings, civil war or just a plain murderous regime. We sit back and do nothing. In fact it often doesn't even get a mention on the British News. Unlike our veritable lotilla of reporters from every channel in every town and Libyan settlement for example.
Secondly we have a huge number of folk on the payroll actively covertly steering outcomes in countries all over the world whether those governments want it or not.
For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
No, there is nothing wrong with self determination but it ought to be self not external government installed puppet as in so many other scenarios "we" have been involved in.
I know exactly where you are coming from Varche, but I really do believe, at least for now, that the West has learnt from its past mistakes. I find the USA stance on foreign involvement interesting to say the least, especially on the latest Libyan affair. It may be purely down to economics, and even the USA are suffering from that one! But, I see the Americans becoming far more isolationist after all the criticism, and expense, of "becoming involved".
Their people are now very unhappy about losing loved ones in distant wars, when all they want is a secure homeland that does not fight foreign wars, just as they intended originally and then again before WW2. Times have changed, and no longer does the current administration, as does their voters, want the USA seen as "the bad guys", losing their own people, and spending billions of dollars "unnecessarily" in the process.
History will eventually tell us where this is going and Europe may be unhappy at the outcome! ::) ::)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
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I think if the west worried less about who they think is and isn't a terrorist and more about the type of regimes we support then the world would be a far safer place :o
Yes, an influenced regime would be soooo much safer. ::) ::)
thats right NB there is only 2 options in your world view, name a country and bingo - heres your two options:
UK: capitilism or communism take your pick
Libya: dictator or terrorist
that'll be the big bumper book of swivel-eyed truisms then. £2.99 in all good bookshops
;D ;D ;D
please dont change NB - this is a golden age for your stuff - everyone should read these......thoughts - Twitter perhaps? ;D :y
Twitter sounds good.
When they bring out idiotter, that'll be for you.
::)
the old "twitter sounds a bit like idiotter gag" - classic - didnt that get old on day 2 of twitter ;)
i think "last of the summer wine" even covered it ;D
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the old "twitter sounds a bit like idiotter gag" - classic - didnt that get old on day 2 of twitter ;)
i think "last of the summer wine" even covered it ;D
Well, since you are always using hackneyed expressions like "swivel-eyed", I thought you preferred the use of worn-out words and phrases. ::)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
.........................and that is what fuels the hatred and anger amongst the Palestinians Cem! So many in authority in the West are all too keen to ignore the sins of the Israeli's; but I will not go any further on that subject! Upsets too many people it seems! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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.........................and that is what fuels the hatred and anger amongst the Palestinians Cem! So many in authority in the West are all too keen to ignore the sins of the Israeli's; but I will not go any further on that subject! Upsets too many people it seems! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Have you ever thought that there may be a reason for that? ::) ::)
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.........................and that is what fuels the hatred and anger amongst the Palestinians Cem! So many in authority in the West are all too keen to ignore the sins of the Israeli's; but I will not go any further on that subject! Upsets too many people it seems! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Have you ever thought that there may be a reason for that? ::) ::)
Yes Nick, because this Forum is based in the West :D :D ;) :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
.......and have you ever wondered Nick why so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable" about the actions of Israel?
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.........................and that is what fuels the hatred and anger amongst the Palestinians Cem! So many in authority in the West are all too keen to ignore the sins of the Israeli's; but I will not go any further on that subject! Upsets too many people it seems! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Have you ever thought that there may be a reason for that? ::) ::)
Yes Nick, because this Forum is based in the West :D :D ;) :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Ah, yes, the sinful West. Must be hard squaring your worldview with that of the the Conservative Party. Actually, forget that. With the current Conservative Party under Camerona/Clegg/Hague, it must be quite easy. :-X :-X :-X :D :D
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.........................and that is what fuels the hatred and anger amongst the Palestinians Cem! So many in authority in the West are all too keen to ignore the sins of the Israeli's; but I will not go any further on that subject! Upsets too many people it seems! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Have you ever thought that there may be a reason for that? ::) ::)
Yes Nick, because this Forum is based in the West :D :D ;) :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
.......and have you ever wondered Nick why so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable" about the actions of Israel?
.......and have you ever wondered Nick why so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable" about the actions of Israel?
Nothing to do with being a Conservative either, but a fair minded individual who wants justice for all, including the Palestinians! :D :D :D ;) ;)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That tells a story! :P :P :P ;)
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.......and have you ever wondered Nick why so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable" about the actions of Israel?
Nothing to do with being a Conservative either, but a fair minded individual who wants justice for all, including the Palestinians! :D :D :D ;) ;)
Have you ever wondered, Lizzie, why so many Jews around the world are very "comfortable" about the actions of Israel?
You see, we can all bandy unsupported claims around.
But, if you really want justice for all, then taking sides in the Palestinian/Israeli debate, which you seem to be doing, is not conducive to an outcome which provides justice to both sides. And that, is the actually the reason why the issue has never been settled. ::)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..
have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? :( :(
.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you :(
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That tells a story! :P :P :P ;)
The story being that the Palestinians don't have an air force. Harsh, but true when you think about it. Besides which, playing the numbers game says nothing about justice. No conflict has ever had an equal number of casualties on both sides. ::)
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.......and have you ever wondered Nick why so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable" about the actions of Israel?
Nothing to do with being a Conservative either, but a fair minded individual who wants justice for all, including the Palestinians! :D :D :D ;) ;)
Have you ever wondered, Lizzie, why so many Jews around the world are very "comfortable" about the actions of Israel?
You see, we can all bandy unsupported claims around.
But, if you really want justice for all, then taking sides in the Palestinian/Israeli debate, which you seem to be doing, is not conducive to an outcome which provides justice to both sides. And that, is the actually the reason why the issue has never been settled. ::)
To start with they are not! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Then there is the legal situation. Read this Nick:
The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. "
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have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..
have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? :( :(
.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you :(
Means "total stupidity" in my dictionary. Every time one of these idiots blows himself/herself up their action sets back the prospects for peace by months/years. They are probably to dim to realise that, though. ;)
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have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..
have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? :( :(
.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you :(
Means "total stupidity" in my dictionary. Every time one of these idiots blows himself/herself up their action sets back the prospects for peace by months/years. They are probably to dim to realise that, though. ;)
really ? :-?
if someone bombs you , closes the doors that you can get food and medicine, blocks your water ways
and passes over you with tanks , what will you do ?
(we must remember the British woman who died for that reason under caterpillars.. Rest in peace) :'(
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To start with they are not! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
How do you know, Lizzie? You're just guessing and hoping someone takes it on as a fact!
Then there is the legal situation. Read this Nick:
The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. "
There is no "legal" position per se, since there is no world body that can legally decide what is, and what isn't, legal. That's why all that talk about the Iraq war being illegal is a bit daft. The ICJ has no globally-accepted mandate and no powers of enforceable punishment. Ditto, the UN. No-one, to my knowledge, has yet written the Rules of the World.
Besides which, as I said earlier, your stance is clear - that you have a predisposition to one side in this conflict. We need independent, unbiased, viewsto solve the question. ;)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That tells a story! :P :P :P ;)
Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.
Well now look at the composition of those figures:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
NOTE these figures in particular:
Israelis Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.) 124 1,452
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?
Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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To start with they are not! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
How do you know, Lizzie? You're just guessing and hoping someone takes it on as a fact!
Then there is the legal situation. Read this Nick:
The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. "
There is no "legal" position per se, since there is no world body that can legally decide what is, and what isn't, legal. That's why all that talk about the Iraq war being illegal is a bit daft. The ICJ has no globally-accepted mandate and no powers of enforceable punishment. Ditto, the UN. No-one, to my knowledge, has yet written the Rules of the World.
Besides which, as I said earlier, your stance is clear - that you have a predisposition to one side in this conflict. We need independent, unbiased, viewsto solve the question. ;)
Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals. Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.
The shedding of blood must stop, and the Palestinian and Israeli states must start to live together, with the Jewish settlers vacating Palestinian land forthwith. :y :y :y :y :y
Yes it is a complex situation, but just look at those casualty figures :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That tells a story! :P :P :P ;)
Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.
Well now look at the composition of those figures:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
NOTE these figures in particular:
Israelis Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.) 124 1,452
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?
Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Oh, no the "Dead Children" argument finally rears its head. ::) ::)
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That tells a story! :P :P :P ;)
Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.
Well now look at the composition of those figures:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
NOTE these figures in particular:
Israelis Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.) 124 1,452
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?
Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Oh, no the "Dead Children" argument finally rears its head. ::) ::)
Right, at that point, in the interests of my health and the Forum :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?
Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings.. :(
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Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals. Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.
So you've listened to a few spokespersons and spoken to a few Jewish individuals that you know, yet feel that is enough to validate your assertion that "so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable".
I'm sure that there are, indeed, a number of Jews who do not support the actions of Israel, but neither I nor you could put a figure on that. In comparison to the global Jewish population, the amount that do not support could be a few, or more. I was surprised that you put up your own, non-quantifiable, estimate as an indisputable fact. :-?
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Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals. Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.
So you've listened to a few spokespersons and spoken to a few Jewish individuals that you know, yet feel that is enough to validate your assertion that "so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable".
I'm sure that there are, indeed, a number of Jews who do not support the actions of Israel, but neither I nor you could put a figure on that. In comparison to the global Jewish population, the amount that do not support could be a few, or more. I was surprised that you put up your own, non-quantifiable, estimate as an indisputable fact. :-?
deads are enough quantifiable imo!!!
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what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?
Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings.. :(
No, Cem, and you know perfectly well that I do not ignore them. But, equally, you should understand that presenting figures in this way is neither helpful nor proof of right or wrong. One shell which accidentally misses a terrorist and hits civilians including children is deeply shocking and to be avoided. However, using such errors to build up a league table of infant deaths to make a political point cannot be right. It creates an emotive atmosphere which is more likely to extend hostilities rather than shorten them. Indeed, albeit by slightly tortured logic, such emotional outbursts could actually prolong conflict by hardening people's positions and could therefore actually lead to more deaths than would be the case if people worked towards to resolving the underlying issues. In this case, the rights of both Palestinians and Israelis to peacefully co-exist. :y
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..
have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? :( :(
.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you :(
YES! We had British citizens blow themselves and many innocent people to smithereens on the London underground and buses not so long ago Cem. It was not because they had a serious reason or were desperate, it was becuase they were brainwashed pawns in a bigger game, just like some Palestinian people are.
Thee have been large sums of money put into the Gaza strip to build decent homes for the people who live in very poor conditions close to the Isreali border, but Hamas wont use the money for its intended purpose, as it suits them to keep these people just as they are, so that they can take the worlds press to the area and show them the "terrible conditions" these people live in, and why they are firing rockets into Israel out of desperation. ;)
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what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?
Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings.. :(
No, Cem, and you know perfectly well that I do not ignore them. But, equally, you should understand that presenting figures in this way is neither helpful nor proof of right or wrong. One shell which accidentally misses a terrorist and hits civilians including children is deeply shocking and to be avoided. However, using such errors to build up a league table of infant deaths to make a political point cannot be right. It creates an emotive atmosphere which is more likely to extend hostilities rather than shorten them. Indeed, albeit by slightly tortured logic, such emotional outbursts could actually prolong conflict by hardening people's positions and could therefore actually lead to more deaths than would be the case if people worked towards to resolving the underlying issues. In this case, the rights of both Palestinians and Israelis to peacefully co-exist. :y
here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..
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here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..
I didn't say they did not have that right. If they stopped attacking Israel and accepted Israel's right to exist, they would soon live in peace. :y
Same with the Kurds, perhaps? ::)
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Getting back to the original point - Make no mistake, the "war" is about regime change, once they started blowing up Gaddafi,s military infrastructure they were past the point of no return, he must now be removed. If he isnt, the rebels and in time the west will suffer his vengeance.
Cameron and co. have to mouth the platitudes about protecting civilians etc as the reason for being there - it is illegal for a British Govt. to forcibly remove the leadership of another country - but they are there to get rid of Gaddafi. Civilian protesters are being shot where they stand in nearby middle eastern countries but we arent "protecting" them, their didtators are more western friendly and not unpredictable loonies like Gaddafi. This is about getting rid of Gaddafi.
I hope they have a good idea what will happen afterwards, because when you have a power vacuum in middle eastern countries it tends to be filled by nutters like Al qaeda.
Its all very well saying that is for the Libyan people to decide, but will we still be saying that a few years down the line if Libyan Al qaeda terrorists are wreaking revenge on this country ?
The battle in the middle east now imo is about trying to destroy the creeping influnce which is flowing out of Iran, and trying to bring it back to a western friendly region which supplies us with much of our oil.
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I just love the way you lot 'know' what's actually going on in the world. Not what's reported on the news or in the vast amount of documentaries on the subjects, but the real, true story behind the headlines.
I wish I was as clever, the world would hold no mystery or fear any more.
I'm sure MI6 would be very grateful if you were all to pass on your vast knowledge and experience. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..
I didn't say they did not have that right. If they stopped attacking Israel and accepted Israel's right to exist, they would soon live in peace. :y
Same with the Kurds, perhaps? ::)
I dont think palestinians conclude that throwing stones, shouting, crying or exploding themselves will end the Israeli existence ;D ;D :D
what they want is simple..they want their lands and homes back..which is invaded by Israel when the right wings decide that their lands become insufficient for their growing nation.. ;)
Kurds.. Deep subject..Let me briefly try to explain .. We dont sweep them from their cities or lands.. They live everywhere.. free to go everywhere.. free to take every job position.. they become president, minister, chief commander for army and whatever you can imagine.. they fought with us in all wars side by side.. what changed the picture is that the far east part of my country is poor.. the villages and lands are mostly owned by agha (landowner) .. and they abuse their villagers to the limit.. and despite trials to correct the situation its still the same (also added the igonarnce of past govts).. so they rebel.. and also some outside countries ( no need to give names as its not the subject but you can guess) give money and guns.. and the trouble started 30 years ago.. but its never the same with israeli- palestinian conflict.. as the agha also is kurd ;)
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I just love the way you lot 'know' what's actually going on in the world. Not what's reported on the news or in the vast amount of documentaries on the subjects, but the real, true story behind the headlines.
I wish I was as clever, the world would hold no mystery or fear any more.
I'm sure MI6 would be very grateful if you were all to pass on your vast knowledge and experience. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't know if I'm included in the "you lot" to which you refer, Steve, but I'm merely airing my opinions and not making any wild claims. If I wasn't airing my opinions on here, I'd only be looking at naked ladies or similar...
...which reminds me. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I just love the way you lot 'know' what's actually going on in the world. Not what's reported on the news or in the vast amount of documentaries on the subjects, but the real, true story behind the headlines.
I wish I was as clever, the world would hold no mystery or fear any more.
I'm sure MI6 would be very grateful if you were all to pass on your vast knowledge and experience. ;D ;D ;D ;D
who is the owner of most media and the tv channels STMO ;) so dont expect a straight truth.. instead you will find it in a deformed way..but not totally wrong , only spelled a bit different ;D :D
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I will tell you a straight truth Cem. I believe that if you look objectively at the bigger picture of world politics, you may realise that the U.S and Western policies in general towards the middle Eastern region might be the only thing which is preventing your country ( and quite a few others) from slipping into an Islamist Iranian satellite state. ;)
The Iranian leadership has ambitions to have the Middle East (and beyond) become an Islamist Empire with Iran at the centre of it.
Western/U.S. policies regarding the region centre around trying to prevent that from happening. :y
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For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
Huh? :o :o
What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.
12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed
I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/
And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start. :(
have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..
have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? :( :(
.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you :(
YES! We had British citizens blow themselves and many innocent people to smithereens on the London underground and buses not so long ago Cem. It was not because they had a serious reason or were desperate, it was becuase they were brainwashed pawns in a bigger game, just like some Palestinian people are.
Thee have been large sums of money put into the Gaza strip to build decent homes for the people who live in very poor conditions close to the Isreali border, but Hamas wont use the money for its intended purpose, as it suits them to keep these people just as they are, so that they can take the worlds press to the area and show them the "terrible conditions" these people live in, and why they are firing rockets into Israel out of desperation. ;)
these were imported British , so not counted ;D
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I will tell you a straight truth Cem. I believe that if you look objectively at the bigger picture of world politics, you may realise that the U.S and Western policies in general towards the middle Eastern region might be the only thing which is preventing your country ( and quite a few others) from slipping into an Islamist Iranian satellite state. ;)
The Iranian leadership has ambitions to have the Middle East (and beyond) become an Islamist Empire with Iran at the centre of it.
Western/U.S. policies regarding the region centre around trying to prevent that from happening. :y
Albs.. how I can tell you now.. :-/
that if US continues the current policy, you may have to find me a job there soon :( :( :-X :-X :-X as those imams are planning to cut me alive ;D
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I dont recall for a fact Cem, but I believe they were born in this country,and it certainly counted to the families of the innocents of those killed and maimed.
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I will tell you a straight truth Cem. I believe that if you look objectively at the bigger picture of world politics, you may realise that the U.S and Western policies in general towards the middle Eastern region might be the only thing which is preventing your country ( and quite a few others) from slipping into an Islamist Iranian satellite state. ;)
The Iranian leadership has ambitions to have the Middle East (and beyond) become an Islamist Empire with Iran at the centre of it.
Western/U.S. policies regarding the region centre around trying to prevent that from happening. :y
Albs.. how I can tell you now.. :-/
that if US continues the current policy, you may have to find me a job there soon :( :( :-X :-X :-X as those imams are planning to cut me alive ;D
seriously, check the latest news .. you will see many details ;) :-X
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there will be 57 yrs of peace from the end of world war 2 then the next world war will begin.
nostradamus.
or words to that effect
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I will tell you a straight truth Cem. I believe that if you look objectively at the bigger picture of world politics, you may realise that the U.S and Western policies in general towards the middle Eastern region might be the only thing which is preventing your country ( and quite a few others) from slipping into an Islamist Iranian satellite state. ;)
The Iranian leadership has ambitions to have the Middle East (and beyond) become an Islamist Empire with Iran at the centre of it.
Western/U.S. policies regarding the region centre around trying to prevent that from happening. :y
Albs.. how I can tell you now.. :-/
that if US continues the current policy, you may have to find me a job there soon :( :( :-X :-X :-X as those imams are planning to cut me alive ;D
My point is Cem - do you think that if the U.S. and the rest of the world kept its nose out of the middle East, that you would be safer from the Imams ?
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there will be 57 yrs of peace from the end of world war 2 then the next world war will begin.
nostradamus.
or words to that effect
Yeah, yeah, like he prophesied 9/11, the space shuttle disaster... ;D ;D
All pony and trap, to use a cockney expression. ;)
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great reading though nick. nearly as good as viz ;)
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great reading though nick. nearly as good as viz ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Viz is better, though, Rich! :y
Especially Roger's Profanisaurus
http://www.viz.co.uk/profanisaurus.html
;D ;D
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I will tell you a straight truth Cem. I believe that if you look objectively at the bigger picture of world politics, you may realise that the U.S and Western policies in general towards the middle Eastern region might be the only thing which is preventing your country ( and quite a few others) from slipping into an Islamist Iranian satellite state. ;)
The Iranian leadership has ambitions to have the Middle East (and beyond) become an Islamist Empire with Iran at the centre of it.
Western/U.S. policies regarding the region centre around trying to prevent that from happening. :y
Albs.. how I can tell you now.. :-/
that if US continues the current policy, you may have to find me a job there soon :( :( :-X :-X :-X as those imams are planning to cut me alive ;D
My point is Cem - do you think that if the U.S. and the rest of the world kept its nose out of the middle East, that you would be safer from the Imams ?
You have PM :y
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Cem, according to our press, certainly the BBC, Turkey is going to do a 'U' turn on it's so far non-involvement in the Libyan affair.
With Nato taking over command which your government had insisted upon, it seems Turkey will play its part albeit maybe limited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12864742
Any comments or observations on this Cem?
:-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
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Cem, according to our press, certainly the BBC, Turkey is going to do a 'U' turn on it's so far non-involvement in the Libyan affair.
With Nato taking over command which your government had insisted upon, it seems Turkey will play its part albeit maybe limited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12864742
Any comments or observations on this Cem?
:-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
I just shared a video on facebook of the U turn.. but this U turn belong to the decision maker not the whole country (which I didnt vote) .. so my heart feels not guilty.. :y
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Lizzie you have PM :y
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Cem, according to our press, certainly the BBC, Turkey is going to do a 'U' turn on it's so far non-involvement in the Libyan affair.
With Nato taking over command which your government had insisted upon, it seems Turkey will play its part albeit maybe limited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12864742
Any comments or observations on this Cem?
:-/ :-/ :-/ :-/
I just shared a video on facebook of the U turn.. but this U turn belong to the decision maker not the whole country (which I didnt vote) .. so my heart feels not guilty.. :y
Thanks Cem! I think you may not be alone in Turkey on this one :D :D :D ;)