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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 26 March 2011, 14:34:29

Title: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Varche on 26 March 2011, 14:34:29
The new season is upon us and already I can hear the hard core saying its boring, won't watch it and so on.

I shall be watching and I have got to say I am looking forward to it. I thought Vettel was just so good in practice. Ditto Hamilton even though he was a staggering 8 tenths behind him. I thought Buttons face when the likely lads told him that Hamilton's Kers wasn't working on his lap was priceless. ;D ;D ;D  I wonder where Kubica would have qualified if Petrov managed sixth?

Do you think the gimmicks (Kers, moveable wings etc) will make for better races?
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Shimmy on 26 March 2011, 15:21:24
Think McLaren can be relieved that they are comfortably 2nd in the pecking order now, in pre season testing they were terrible when trying out new radical complicated exhausts.  Since their recent large upgrade to a more simple system they have been far more reliable and much improved performance. 

Ferrari are a bit of a mystery as they were strong in testing but seem to have struggled in Oz.

Red Bull on the other hand have looked immense continuing from last year and winter testing.  Stricter tests have been made to make sure wings don't flex but from the below photo comparison it's clear to see they have still managed to get around it.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q319/joker182/wiiiiings.jpg)

It's also emerged that Red Bull might have a KERS system only for the start of the race, which would be a very clever interpretation of the rules.

All KERS equipped cars start with a fully charged battery for the start. So apparently RBR have installed a light weight battery 'KERS' system for the start of the race which only trickle charges rather than the large heavy rapid charging units other teams are using.  The benefit of this is that the rear tyres should last longer as they are less likely to lock up and flat spot which occurs with normal KERS units which affect brake bias.


Oh and the stewards have decided not to let HRT race tomorrow. Thankfully.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Pitchfork on 26 March 2011, 15:52:29
Quote
Think McLaren can be relieved that they are comfortably 2nd in the pecking order now, in pre season testing they were terrible when trying out new radical complicated exhausts.  Since their recent large upgrade to a more simple system they have been far more reliable and much improved performance. 

Ferrari are a bit of a mystery as they were strong in testing but seem to have struggled in Oz.

Red Bull on the other hand have looked immense continuing from last year and winter testing.  Stricter tests have been made to make sure wings don't flex but from the below photo comparison it's clear to see they have still managed to get around it.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q319/joker182/wiiiiings.jpg)

It's also emerged that Red Bull might have a KERS system only for the start of the race, which would be a very clever interpretation of the rules.

All KERS equipped cars start with a fully charged battery for the start. So apparently RBR have installed a light weight battery 'KERS' system for the start of the race which only trickle charges rather than the large heavy rapid charging units other teams are using.  The benefit of this is that the rear tyres should last longer as they are less likely to lock up and flat spot which occurs with normal KERS units which affect brake bias.


Oh and the stewards have decided not to let HRT race tomorrow. Thankfully.
Is that an all female racing team?
Whatever next!
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 26 March 2011, 18:17:28
Idont see the point of KERS if everyone has it, as Webber said earlier they all push the button at the same time, negating its effect.

What will be interesting is the new tyres designed to degrade quicker and the wing flap when you're within 1 sec - how fair or workable that will be remains to be seen - may need a bit of tweaking, and i'm glad they've ditched the ludicrousness of policing team orders - complete nonsense - you cant possibly enforce any "law" unless the team own up or give the game away.

looking forward to seeing how Di Resta gets on too - phenomenal driver who deserves a shot at f1  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 26 March 2011, 20:08:57
Irritating this, the boring tag. I fail to see how a moving object travelling at these sorts of speeds can possibly be boring. One car on track, I want to see it. I want the impression of speed, full on, in the face, flat out speed. It's there in bucket loads, it simply isn't conveyed by the tv coverage. Too many close ups. Zoom out. Pick up the wider angles of the whole corner. So rarely happens, but then to performance comes through on screen.
  But no. Let's have a close up of the pit garage, and the Mrs/wife/father/manager/clip board.  >:(

Yes let's have gadgets and gizmos, more performance, more more more.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 26 March 2011, 20:12:57
Its now got so contrived and Formula Disney that Ecclestone is planning to introduce sprinklers at every track so they can have a partial wet race at every race. Words fail me.
Yes Chris, the cars are mind numbingly fast, but the "racing" is for the most part tedious.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Shimmy on 26 March 2011, 20:38:45
Quote
Irritating this, the boring tag. I fail to see how a moving object travelling at these sorts of speeds can possibly be boring. One car on track, I want to see it. I want the impression of speed, full on, in the face, flat out speed. It's there in bucket loads, it simply isn't conveyed by the tv coverage. Too many close ups. Zoom out. Pick up the wider angles of the whole corner. So rarely happens, but then to performance comes through on screen.
  But no. Let's have a close up of the pit garage, and the Mrs/wife/father/manager/clip board.  >:(

Yes let's have gadgets and gizmos, more performance, more more more.

Yup.

Watch this:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhu13qp8Oc[/media]

Then this!
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seget3zOj_8[/media]
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 26 March 2011, 21:47:17
Perfectly demonstrated. A different planet entirely. So many times I shout at the tv, keep the camera still and let the car go through the shot. And some of the onboard stuff is awesome.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 06:18:41
morning all - enjoy the race  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Omegatoy on 27 March 2011, 09:18:54
thought it was ok for the frst race of the season, they are going to have to do something about the rear wing usage though, i thought it would be allowed anywhere they could use it, just on the straight is slly!!
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: The Red Baron on 27 March 2011, 09:46:37
missed the first 7 bloomin laps, alarm didnt go off, didnt find it very exciting at all really. rear wing usage is a bit daft. & redbull not using kers at all. well it doesnt look like they need it anyway given there speed.
overall, yes not a bad start to the season. :)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 10:01:08
Quote
thought it was ok for the frst race of the season, they are going to have to do something about the rear wing usage though, i thought it would be allowed anywhere they could use it, just on the straight is slly!!

i think they found in testing that removing downforce in the middle of a high speed bend was detrimental to keeping the car on the black stuff  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: The Red Baron on 27 March 2011, 10:03:27
Quote
Quote
thought it was ok for the frst race of the season, they are going to have to do something about the rear wing usage though, i thought it would be allowed anywhere they could use it, just on the straight is slly!!

i think they found in testing that removing downforce in the middle of a high speed bend was detrimental to keeping the car on the black stuff  :y
as was found out in qually yesterday. :o
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Varche on 27 March 2011, 14:31:28
Yep enjoyed that race. There is some good new talent around this year.

Didn't enjoy getting up so early especially as we are one hour ahead of Britain. 
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 27 March 2011, 17:48:13
Well, before I could say it was boring, I thought I should watch it, esp with the new rules.  I even recorded it.

What a waste of 2 hours. Boring as hell. As with the last 15 or so year, no overtaking (and by definition, no racing). They said at the beginning that there is only 6% of overtaking compared to 20yrs ago.  That is a castasphoric step backwards.  When you have to have mandatory pitstops just for 'overtaking', they have got it all wrong.

Yes, speed is good to watch, but F1 may as well be time trials, as sure as shit is brown and smelly, F1 isn't racing.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 27 March 2011, 17:52:06
Agreed. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Varche on 27 March 2011, 18:08:51
Quote
Well, before I could say it was boring, I thought I should watch it, esp with the new rules.  I even recorded it.

What a waste of 2 hours. Boring as hell. As with the last 15 or so year, no overtaking (and by definition, no racing). They said at the beginning that there is only 6% of overtaking compared to 20yrs ago.  That is a castasphoric step backwards.  When you have to have mandatory pitstops just for 'overtaking', they have got it all wrong.

Yes, speed is good to watch, but F1 may as well be time trials, as sure as shit is brown and smelly, F1 isn't racing.

I did say Buffs only in the heading. I have some videos of paint drying you can borrow if you want more excitement than F1  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 19:05:18
the old "there was much more overtaking in the past" is easily provable as a lie I'm afraid - i've actually bothered checking because i suspected we all have edited highlights in our head from yesteryear.

turns out the hunch was right.

now if you dont believe me i'll find the stats - but only if you dont believe me  :y




enjoyable enough race, but they should focus on where the action is - Di Resta seemed to be 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 10th, 11th, etc so someone was having fun while the cameras followed Vettel disappearing into the sunset  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 27 March 2011, 20:19:21
you know what they say about statistics....... ::)
I,ve been watching F1 since the mid 70,s (used to be fanatical about it ) and it is without a shadow of a doubt, a souless, characterless caricature of the sport it once was.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSU1IXrICso[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2_kU0kC0Vc&feature=related[/media]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIpdoqRS6_4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5LIIYo0ts


Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: tunnie on 27 March 2011, 20:22:32
I was hoping for a lot more action with these tyres which are supposed to burn off quicker  :-/

Usual formation really just going around and around, only two over-takes of note. One Button c0cked up and ran wide, other Barrichello clearly felt his front wing need adjusting  ;D

I got bored and started doing the washing  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 20:30:04
Albs, thats 10 minutes of great highlights from years of F1 tho - rose tinted specs I'm afraid, there was a ton of processional races too - we've literally edited them from our brains  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 20:31:06
Quote
I was hoping for a lot more action with these tyres which are supposed to burn off quicker  :-/

Usual formation really just going around and around, only two over-takes of note. One Button c0cked up and ran wide, other Barrichello clearly felt his front wing need adjusting  ;D

I got bored and started doing the washing  ;D


You got up at 6am to do the washing?  :o :o :o
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 20:32:05
Quote
Quote
I was hoping for a lot more action with these tyres which are supposed to burn off quicker  :-/

Usual formation really just going around and around, only two over-takes of note. One Button c0cked up and ran wide, other Barrichello clearly felt his front wing need adjusting  ;D

I got bored and started doing the washing  ;D


You got up at 6am to do the washing?  :o :o :o

You do the washing?  :o :o :o


Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: tunnie on 27 March 2011, 20:49:42
I watched the re-run, drank too much wine to be up at 6! And yes I do the washing.... Even fix it when it breaks!
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Webby the Bear on 27 March 2011, 21:05:08
i personally am completely indifferent to F1. as mentioned before we don't get a good enough perception of speed. maybe if the camera angles were changed it would be more exciting???  :-/ :-/ :-/

i much prefer WRC & BTCC  :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 27 March 2011, 21:52:20
When it only used to be 40mins on BBC late Sunday evening, obviously it was all overtaking, as they cram into highlights. Though even then, they only showed start, overtakes (no pit stops then) and finish.


If you did the same for todays 'race', 5mins would be difficult to see, as 99.9% of anything significant happens in pit stops. Thats not racing. Ban pit stops, maybe they'd learn how to overtake again, or at least try.


There have been no truely memorable F1 races for at least 10yrs.


So, without any shadow of a doubt, there was far more action 2 decades ago.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Webby the Bear on 27 March 2011, 21:55:25
Quote
There have been no truely memorable F1 races for at least 10yrs.




apart from that hamilton overtake for him to take the title. last lap of the last race  :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 22:06:00
just watched an excellent, poignant and shocking documentary on bbc4 "Grand Prix: The Killer Years" if you havent seen it - you should catch it on iPlayer  :(
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 27 March 2011, 22:09:00
Quote
Quote
There have been no truely memorable F1 races for at least 10yrs.




apart from that hamilton overtake for him to take the title. last lap of the last race  :y :y :y :y
Hardly a classic race, was it. Not really in the same league as Senna and Prost constantly banging wheels every 2-3 weeks (when F1 only had about 10 races a year)...
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 27 March 2011, 22:59:16
Quote
just watched an excellent, poignant and shocking documentary on bbc4 "Grand Prix: The Killer Years" if you havent seen it - you should catch it on iPlayer  :(

Borrox - I forgot about it. Will hopefully be ablr to catch it on iplayer.
That brings me to another point about modern F1.In the old days the drivers knew only too well that if they had a big off there was a good chance they would be killed, but they drove balls out anyway The cars were made from folded aluminium and fibreglass and they crumpled like a tescos carrier bag when they hit something solid.. These days they know they will almost certainly walk away from whatever happens.
Im not saying I would like to go back to seeing my heroes killed on average of two per season, but I do believe that the drivers of old should always comand more respect due to that one fact.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Webby the Bear on 27 March 2011, 23:12:17
agreed albs  :y

i thought that top gear episode where hamilton goes in sennas car was pretty special.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 27 March 2011, 23:14:40
Senna was a god Webby. There will never be another like him. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Webby the Bear on 27 March 2011, 23:19:50
yep. TBH i was only 12 when he died and didnt watch motorsport. but everyone was on about it even at my school.

seen some of his driving and it was amazing.  :y

Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 27 March 2011, 23:22:39
Quote
Senna was a god Webby. There will never be another like him. :y

agreed - apparently that film about him is amazing - think its due out later this year  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 08:29:40
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 28 March 2011, 08:46:30
Quote
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.

i think Clark and Senna would be quick in any era - but we'll never know  :(
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 28 March 2011, 08:47:36
Sauber were disqualified for "wing infringements" i see  :o

for breaching article 3.10.1 and 3.10.2 m'lud  :(

*Article 3.10.1

[size=9]"Any bodywork more than 150mm behind the rear wheel centre line which is between 150mm and 730mm above the reference plane, and between 75mm and 355mm from the car centre line, must lie in an area when viewed from the side of the car that is situated between 150mm and 350mm behind the rear wheel centre line and between 300mm and 400mm above the reference plane. When viewed from the side of the car no longitudinal cross section may have more than one section in this area.

"Furthermore, no part of this section in contact with the external air stream may have a local concave radius of curvature smaller than 100mm.

"Once this section is defined, 'gurney' type trim tabs may be fitted to the trailing edge. When measured in any longitudinal cross section no dimension of any such trim tab may exceed 20mm."

** Article 3.10.2
"Other than the bodywork defined in Article 3.10.9, any bodywork behind a point lying 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line which is more than 730mm above the reference plane, and less than 355mm from the car centre line, must lie in an area when viewed from the side of the car that is situated between the rear wheel centre line and a point 350mm behind it."[/size]


now THAT is dull  ;D

but well done di Resta - looks like you get a point on your debut  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 08:51:31
Quote
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.

Senna would have eaten scumacher for breakfast in any situation. Apart from all his other attributes he had more intelligence in his little finger than Scummy has in his head.
He was also naturally gifted to an unbelievable degree, which Scummy isnt - which is why he has to cheat and bully at every single opportunity, to get his results.
I think his comeback has demonstrated that now that he has lost the influence to tip the scales in his favour - team orders, rules dont apply to him or his car etc. - we are seeing his level of real talent, which is somewhat mediocre.I think the difference this time around may well be that now that Ross Brawn is the team principal, he wont run a bent car, whereas Ferrari always ran a bent car in the Scumacher era, and the FIA turned a blind eye to it.
Did I mention before that I detest the bloke ?  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 28 March 2011, 08:54:48
Quote
Quote
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.

Senna would have eaten scumacher for breakfast in any situation. Apart from all his other attributes he had more intelligence in his little finger than Scummy has in his head.
He was also naturally gifted to an unbelievable degree, which Scummy isnt - which is why he has to cheat and bully at every single opportunity, to get his results.
I think his comeback has demonstrated that now that he has lost the influence to tip the scales in his favour - team orders, rules dont apply to him or his car etc. - we are seeing his level of real talent, which is somewhat mediocre.
Did I mention before that I detest the bloke ?  ;D

Senna was jedi-like in talent but he could be a ruthless b too Albs  :o
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 08:56:15
Quote
Quote
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.

i think Clark and Senna would be quick in any era - but we'll never know  :(
Yep, quick is quick. Talent is talent. End of. ;)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 09:06:14
Quote
Quote
Senna was the God of his era. You could argue that Schumacher was the God of his, love him or loth him. And the early Gods, Fangio and co, were Gods of their era.

I think the Schumacher return shows that these greats couldn't survive in a different era.

Senna would have eaten scumacher for breakfast in any situation. Apart from all his other attributes he had more intelligence in his little finger than Scummy has in his head.
He was also naturally gifted to an unbelievable degree, which Scummy isnt - which is why he has to cheat and bully at every single opportunity, to get his results.
I think his comeback has demonstrated that now that he has lost the influence to tip the scales in his favour - team orders, rules dont apply to him or his car etc. - we are seeing his level of real talent, which is somewhat mediocre.I think the difference this time around may well be that now that Ross Brawn is the team principal, he wont run a bent car, whereas Ferrari always ran a bent car in the Scumacher era, and the FIA turned a blind eye to it.
Did I mention before that I detest the bloke ?  ;D
We will never know. Both, I feel, had a real feel for the cars and the grip available, and both had a real determination to win. At any cost. I'm sure Prost and Piquet would be equally as harsh at Senna as Hill was to Schumacher.

I was one of the Schumacher loathers in the Hill/Villeneuve era, but since missed his real, true desire to win, which is something missing from every single current F1 driver, including Webber (who used to have it), and Hamilton who showed initial promise.

Schumacher was the best of his era imho, though not any other greats during that time, unlike Senna, who had Prost, Piquet, and the real mans man, Mansell (love or loath him)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 28 March 2011, 09:47:10
Quote
Idont see the point of KERS if everyone has it, as Webber said earlier they all push the button at the same time, negating its effect.

What will be interesting is the new tyres designed to degrade quicker and the wing flap when you're within 1 sec - how fair or workable that will be remains to be seen - may need a bit of tweaking, and i'm glad they've ditched the ludicrousness of policing team orders - complete nonsense - you cant possibly enforce any "law" unless the team own up or give the game away.

looking forward to seeing how Di Resta gets on too - phenomenal driver who deserves a shot at f1  :y

Have to agree, he's got a real talent and should do well in F1. I followed him in the DTM series last year and went to see it at Brands Hatch and he was awesome. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 28 March 2011, 09:48:37
Quote
Well, before I could say it was boring, I thought I should watch it, esp with the new rules.  I even recorded it.

What a waste of 2 hours. Boring as hell. As with the last 15 or so year, no overtaking (and by definition, no racing). They said at the beginning that there is only 6% of overtaking compared to 20yrs ago.  That is a castasphoric step backwards.  When you have to have mandatory pitstops just for 'overtaking', they have got it all wrong.

Yes, speed is good to watch, but F1 may as well be time trials, as sure as shit is brown and smelly, F1 isn't racing.

Jaime, please stop watching F1.....you know you hate it and we get the same old comments every year! ;) :-X
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 10:01:13
Quote
Quote
Well, before I could say it was boring, I thought I should watch it, esp with the new rules.  I even recorded it.

What a waste of 2 hours. Boring as hell. As with the last 15 or so year, no overtaking (and by definition, no racing). They said at the beginning that there is only 6% of overtaking compared to 20yrs ago.  That is a castasphoric step backwards.  When you have to have mandatory pitstops just for 'overtaking', they have got it all wrong.

Yes, speed is good to watch, but F1 may as well be time trials, as sure as shit is brown and smelly, F1 isn't racing.

Jaime, please stop watching F1.....you know you hate it and we get the same old comments every year! ;) :-X
I love motorsport. I live in eternal hope it will become watchable. Each year, I have renewed hope that the rule changes will help overtaking. Yet another year, and its shown the 3 big changes (tyres, DRS and KERS) have done precisely sod all.


Yet, to me, the solutions to the sport are fairly simple - reduce downforce, and ban planned pitstops (ie, tyres have to last the race, only allowed to be changed if damaged or rain). ie, making following easier, and force on-track overtaking, rather than rely 99.9% on off-track overtaking.

Else you may as well send the cars out, qualifying style, for individual timed laps
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 28 March 2011, 10:09:35
Quote
Quote
Quote
Well, before I could say it was boring, I thought I should watch it, esp with the new rules.  I even recorded it.

What a waste of 2 hours. Boring as hell. As with the last 15 or so year, no overtaking (and by definition, no racing). They said at the beginning that there is only 6% of overtaking compared to 20yrs ago.  That is a castasphoric step backwards.  When you have to have mandatory pitstops just for 'overtaking', they have got it all wrong.

Yes, speed is good to watch, but F1 may as well be time trials, as sure as shit is brown and smelly, F1 isn't racing.

Jaime, please stop watching F1.....you know you hate it and we get the same old comments every year! ;) :-X
I love motorsport. I live in eternal hope it will become watchable. Each year, I have renewed hope that the rule changes will help overtaking. Yet another year, and its shown the 3 big changes (tyres, DRS and KERS) have done precisely sod all.


Yet, to me, the solutions to the sport are fairly simple - reduce downforce, and ban planned pitstops (ie, tyres have to last the race, only allowed to be changed if damaged or rain). ie, making following easier, and force on-track overtaking, rather than rely 99.9% on off-track overtaking.

Else you may as well send the cars out, qualifying style, for individual timed laps

I agree to some extent, but no matter what us viewers and fans think, the rules and regs will still dictated by a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car. Therefore, we pretty much have to get what we're given regardless of our own opinions. Sad, but that's always been the way of F1. :(
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 10:12:14
Quote
I agree to some extent, but no matter what us viewers and fans think, the rules and regs will still dictated by a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car. Therefore, we pretty much have to get what we're given regardless of our own opinions. Sad, but that's always been the way of F1. :(
So its up to the real fans to let the FIA know, not just be fanatical about dull racing ;)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 28 March 2011, 10:15:51
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I agree to some extent, but no matter what us viewers and fans think, the rules and regs will still dictated by a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car. Therefore, we pretty much have to get what we're given regardless of our own opinions. Sad, but that's always been the way of F1. :(
So its up to the real fans to let the FIA know, not just be fanatical about dull racing ;)

Perhaps they should let the drivers make the rules and regs........now that could be interesting. ::)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 28 March 2011, 10:16:52
just as "dull" now as it was in the 80's and 90's - its not up for debate the facts speak volumes, you're all swallowing the "accepted truth" i'm afraid  :o

what you may be mis-remembering is reliability was worse, safety was much worse and coverage was much less.

and f1 has always tinkered with the rules and brought in innovations to improve performance or limit power and grip.....thats kinda the point of f1.....i think the ones who see it as dull would always be bored by it in any era 'cept nowadays its easier to hark back to a "golden age" and pretend you'd like f1 if only..........

if you have the attention span of a gnat, watch big foot trucking or nascar  :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 28 March 2011, 10:21:56
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just as "dull" now as it was in the 80's and 90's - its not up for debate the facts speak volumes, you're all swallowing the "accepted truth" i'm afraid  :o

Anything can be termed as "dull" if you have no passion for a particular sport or interest. I find cricket very dull, but thousands of people thoroughly enjoy it. ::)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2011, 11:26:14
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Irritating this, the boring tag. I fail to see how a moving object travelling at these sorts of speeds can possibly be boring....

Well, I spent Saturday night sitting in a 747 doing 3x the speed of a F1 car and boring isn't the word. Why? Risks clinically controlled. Not an ounce of competition aside from ticket price and only the slimmest of possibilities that some unexpected failure causes life to suddenly become more exciting.

Same problem as F1, IMHO. ;D

Kevin
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: tunnie on 28 March 2011, 11:34:00
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Irritating this, the boring tag. I fail to see how a moving object travelling at these sorts of speeds can possibly be boring....

Well, I spent Saturday night sitting in a 747 doing 3x the speed of a F1 car and boring isn't the word. Why? Risks clinically controlled. Not an ounce of competition aside from ticket price and only the slimmest of possibilities that some unexpected failure causes life to suddenly become more exciting.

Same problem as F1, IMHO. ;D

Kevin

Indeed, on a flight, I usually hope for some turbulence to spice things up a bit!

Then ignore the warnings and insist on a bathroom visit  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Nickbat on 28 March 2011, 11:40:41
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Irritating this, the boring tag. I fail to see how a moving object travelling at these sorts of speeds can possibly be boring....

Well, I spent Saturday night sitting in a 747 doing 3x the speed of a F1 car and boring isn't the word. Why? Risks clinically controlled. Not an ounce of competition aside from ticket price and only the slimmest of possibilities that some unexpected failure causes life to suddenly become more exciting.

Same problem as F1, IMHO. ;D

Kevin


A problem easily cured, Kevin. Just make sure you fly Indian next time!

NEW DELHI: Fasten your seat belts, the captain of your plane may have fudged his papers to get a flying licence. Investigations by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), initiated after a woman pilot was found repeatedly landing wrongly on the nosewheel of the plane, have thrown up two more pilots who forged their qualifying papers. Fake captains are fast emerging as the biggest threat to safe flying in India.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-09/india/28671927_1_pilots-dgca-licences

 :o :o ;) ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2011, 11:43:51
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A problem easily cured, Kevin. Just make sure you fly Indian next time!

NEW DELHI: Fasten your seat belts, the captain of your plane may have fudged his papers to get a flying licence. Investigations by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), initiated after a woman pilot was found repeatedly landing wrongly on the nosewheel of the plane, have thrown up two more pilots who forged their qualifying papers. Fake captains are fast emerging as the biggest threat to safe flying in India.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-09/india/28671927_1_pilots-dgca-licences

 :o :o ;) ;D ;D ;D


Not entirely sure how you land an airliner repeatedly on the nose wheel without ending up with a heap of junk at the end of the tarmac. :o

Kevin
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 28 March 2011, 12:08:37
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..... a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car.

It is very easy to be critical having never done the job isn't it? ....    :-X

Add an average of 150mph on to a journey and see how easy it is. And any idiot can sit in a straightline mid air at mark1 and be board. In flight movie included.  ;D
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 13:38:16
I would reccomend that everyone watches on iplayer, the film Banjax mentioned earlier in the thread. One of the things it demonstrated to me was that things needed to change so badly, but now they have let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. Thrown the baby out with the bath water, and made the sport tedious in the process. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 14:38:17
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..... a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car.

It is very easy to be critical having never done the job isn't it? ....    :-X

Add an average of 150mph on to a journey and see how easy it is. And any idiot can sit in a straightline mid air at mark1 and be board. In flight movie included.  ;D
My eldest brother has driven an F1 car (despite his bulk, I'm surprised they squeezed him in :o), and he said it was very exciting. Lucky bastard.

So, whilst I can only dream imagine how exciting it is to drive one, I still maintain its boring to watch one currently ;)


I tend to go to the free F1 test days at Silverstone, as its just down the road. Though it lacks the GP atmosphere, it tends to be more enjoyable to watch, not least because you are actually there, but also because the test drivers often do try that little bit harder with unknown components/setups, resulting in lockups under braking, 180/360s leaving corners etc...
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Banjax on 28 March 2011, 16:34:54
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I would reccomend that everyone watches on iplayer, the film Banjax mentioned earlier in the thread. One of the things it demonstrated to me was that things needed to change so badly, but now they have let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. Thrown the baby out with the bath water, and made the sport tedious in the process. :y


some of it was gobsmacking, the attitude of the owners (Colin Chapman doesn't come out smelling of roses) and circuit bosses beggared belief in some cases - Jackie Stewart asking if maybe some of the trees near high speed corners could be cut down at Spa was told "you know where the saws are kept"  :o :o

total world away from the pampered lives they lead now.......and the last section with Purley trying to save his fellow driver  (Williamson) at the '73 Dutch GP was heartbreaking
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 28 March 2011, 18:34:04
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..... a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car.

It is very easy to be critical having never done the job isn't it? ....    :-X

Add an average of 150mph on to a journey and see how easy it is. And any idiot can sit in a straightline mid air at mark1 and be board. In flight movie included.  ;D
My eldest brother has driven an F1 car (despite his bulk, I'm surprised they squeezed him in :o), and he said it was very exciting. Lucky blank.

So, whilst I can only dream imagine how exciting it is to drive one, I still maintain its boring to watch one currently ;)


I tend to go to the free F1 test days at Silverstone, as its just down the road. Though it lacks the GP atmosphere, it tends to be more enjoyable to watch, not least because you are actually there, but also because the test drivers often do try that little bit harder with unknown components/setups, resulting in lockups under braking, 180/360s leaving corners etc...
So F1 is not boring, clearly. But it's presentation on tv is...? Hence an F1 race is defo on my bucket list, if I could ever afford the ticket price. Christ!  :o
   Even better if free and now crowds of odd balls wearing Mclaren shirts. Much as I love the team.
An F1 car flat out through maggots, beckets, chapel.... That I want to see.




Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 19:46:58
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..... a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car.

It is very easy to be critical having never done the job isn't it? ....    :-X

Add an average of 150mph on to a journey and see how easy it is. And any idiot can sit in a straightline mid air at mark1 and be board. In flight movie included.  ;D
My eldest brother has driven an F1 car (despite his bulk, I'm surprised they squeezed him in :o), and he said it was very exciting. Lucky blank.

So, whilst I can only dream imagine how exciting it is to drive one, I still maintain its boring to watch one currently ;)


I tend to go to the free F1 test days at Silverstone, as its just down the road. Though it lacks the GP atmosphere, it tends to be more enjoyable to watch, not least because you are actually there, but also because the test drivers often do try that little bit harder with unknown components/setups, resulting in lockups under braking, 180/360s leaving corners etc...
So F1 is not boring, clearly. But it's presentation on tv is...? Hence an F1 race is defo on my bucket list, if I could ever afford the ticket price. Christ!  :o
   Even better if free and now crowds of odd balls wearing Mclaren shirts. Much as I love the team.
An F1 car flat out through maggots, beckets, chapel.... That I want to see.
F1 would be so much more if it was allowed to be a race. Imagine those same cars wheel to wheel for lap upon lap. Thats why I'd rather watch BTTC than F1
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 20:15:53
I went to the British GP in 80/81/82. And as much as I agree that the speed of the current cars through Beckets would be a sight to see,I would still rather go back to Brands and watch them going at a lesser (but still very fast) rate of knots round paddock hill bend and winding on opposite lock in the middle of it as they exceeded the mechanical grip of the chassis and tyres.
I wouldnt dream of paying for a ticket to watch F1 now, although I would probably go if it was a freebie, just to see how quick they are these days, close up.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 28 March 2011, 20:35:03
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..... a few half wits that have never sat behind the wheel on an F1 car.

It is very easy to be critical having never done the job isn't it? ....    :-X

Add an average of 150mph on to a journey and see how easy it is. And any idiot can sit in a straightline mid air at mark1 and be board. In flight movie included.  ;D
My eldest brother has driven an F1 car (despite his bulk, I'm surprised they squeezed him in :o), and he said it was very exciting. Lucky blank.

So, whilst I can only dream imagine how exciting it is to drive one, I still maintain its boring to watch one currently ;)


I tend to go to the free F1 test days at Silverstone, as its just down the road. Though it lacks the GP atmosphere, it tends to be more enjoyable to watch, not least because you are actually there, but also because the test drivers often do try that little bit harder with unknown components/setups, resulting in lockups under braking, 180/360s leaving corners etc...
So F1 is not boring, clearly. But it's presentation on tv is...? Hence an F1 race is defo on my bucket list, if I could ever afford the ticket price. Christ!  :o
   Even better if free and now crowds of odd balls wearing Mclaren shirts. Much as I love the team.
An F1 car flat out through maggots, beckets, chapel.... That I want to see.
F1 would be so much more if it was allowed to be a race. Imagine those same cars wheel to wheel for lap upon lap. Thats why I'd rather watch BTTC than F1
Now we're getting some realism into the conversation! It could certainly be alot more than it is. But boring? Never!     >:(

I will however reserve the right to fall asleep mid race as I see fit. It's a sign if contentment. By that I mean, I could never fall asleep mid Jeromy Kyle episode! Would rather hammer nails in my ears... If you see what I mean?    ;)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 20:48:40
The cars - as pure speed machines, made to record very fast laps of a given circuit - they are jaw droppingly effective and incredible feats of engineering.
The cars - as racing cars  -  they are shite. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 28 March 2011, 20:59:12
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The cars - as pure speed machines, made to record very fast laps of a given circuit - they are jaw droppingly effective and incredible feats of engineering.
The cars - as racing cars  -  they are shite. :y
And the answer is?
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 28 March 2011, 21:09:55
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The cars - as pure speed machines, made to record very fast laps of a given circuit - they are jaw droppingly effective and incredible feats of engineering.
The cars - as racing cars  -  they are shite. :y
And if we want the former, do away with the rules, allow big engines, big turbos, wide tyres and ground effects. That would be more than F1 can ever provide, and with F1 we're not talking about racing anyway....
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 28 March 2011, 21:20:14
Was just thinkin ground effect was the death nail, relatively speaking, I mean once an item is beyond the limit of human performance... Well. It's useless surely? Anything after that becomes a contrived joke.

F1 has it's place. As does BTC/WTC/Ausie touring cars, wsb etc
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 28 March 2011, 21:49:48
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The cars - as pure speed machines, made to record very fast laps of a given circuit - they are jaw droppingly effective and incredible feats of engineering.
The cars - as racing cars  -  they are shite. :y
And the answer is?

Its supposed to be a race, so lose the engineering masterpieces and replace them with racing cars. Plenty of power, plenty of mechanical grip (but not too much) little if any downforce,lose the carbon brakes so we can bring back the last of the late breakers passing each other into corners,ban pit stops so they have to pass each other on the track. And electronics to provide sparks to the plugs and nothing else.
Red Bull and Vettell didnt win last year (and yesterday) Adrian Newey did. He is an engineering genius who can find a way to have an advantage even in the strictest set of rules. Whichever team he designs for wins. I have huge respect for him, but its not good for the sport.
The technological blind alley was started when Colin Chapman "discovered" ground effects - that was the day when F1 went down the road of having cars with more grip than the power out put of the engines could overcome - and that is not a good thing in any motorsport imo.
Bike racing is slowly heading down the same road(over reliance on electronic systems, masking differing abilty levels to a degree) and is losing its appeal(to me at least) as a consequence.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: feeutfo on 29 March 2011, 01:36:02
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The cars - as pure speed machines, made to record very fast laps of a given circuit - they are jaw droppingly effective and incredible feats of engineering.
The cars - as racing cars  -  they are shite. :y
And the answer is?

Its supposed to be a race, so lose the engineering masterpieces and replace them with racing cars. Plenty of power, plenty of mechanical grip (but not too much) little if any downforce,lose the carbon brakes so we can bring back the last of the late breakers passing each other into corners,ban pit stops so they have to pass each other on the track. And electronics to provide sparks to the plugs and nothing else.
Red Bull and Vettell didnt win last year (and yesterday) Adrian Newey did. He is an engineering genius who can find a way to have an advantage even in the strictest set of rules. Whichever team he designs for wins. I have huge respect for him, but its not good for the sport.
The technological blind alley was started when Colin Chapman "discovered" ground effects - that was the day when F1 went down the road of having cars with more grip than the power out put of the engines could overcome - and that is not a good thing in any motorsport imo.
Bike racing is slowly heading down the same road(over reliance on electronic systems, masking differing abilty levels to a degree) and is losing its appeal(to me at least) as a consequence.
So bin f1 in effect? Never going to happen.

Just watched the killer years btw. Incredible. Really!
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: TheBoy on 29 March 2011, 08:52:54
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So bin f1 in effect? Never going to happen.
Like many sports, too much money has become involved, much to the detriment of everyone except those directly involved.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 29 March 2011, 09:28:47
Exactly. :y
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 29 March 2011, 09:34:12
While I agree wholeheartedly with much that has been said, you can't escape the fact that each formula in motor racing must be governed by it's own rules and regulations otherwise if would degenerate into a complete free for all whereby the richest teams would have the most powerful cars and best technology and win every race therefore ending in.........yep BOREDOM! ::)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 29 March 2011, 09:37:31
The richest teams in F1 do tend to win most of the time Bob, cant remember the last time someone won from down near the back of the grid.
Point is the rules need changing to produce cars which are capable of running in close proximity to one another and actually racing each other imo. Areodynamics is the biggest problem.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: bob.dent on 29 March 2011, 09:47:54
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The richest teams in F1 do tend to win most of the time Bob, cant remember the last time someone won from down near the back of the grid.
Point is the rules need changing to produce cars which are capable of running in close proximity to one another and actually racing each other imo. Areodynamics is the biggest problem.

Pretty much a fact of life Albs, you've only got to look at football to see that it's always the teams with the most money are always at the top of their league i.e. Chelski.
They keep trying to adjust the rules in F1 in an effort to lessen some of the advantages enjoyed by top teams such as Ferrari and McLaren. Unfortunately, because they have got so much money, they always seem to find ways around the new rules whilst still managing to stay within them, and it's all back to square one again. ::)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 29 March 2011, 10:07:40
If they were serious about cost cutting it should be easy imo. They employ many electronics engineers per car and spend vast amounts on aerodynamics. If the cars were racing cars rather than mobile technical laborotories they could lose most of their very highly paid workforces and save a fortune.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 29 March 2011, 10:17:53
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If they were serious about cost cutting it should be easy imo. They employ many electronics engineers per car and spend vast amounts on aerodynamics. If the cars were racing cars rather than mobile technical laborotories they could lose most of their very highly paid workforces and save a fortune.

Corrected to

could lose most of their very highly paid BRITISH workforces

Motorsport is a major employer and wealth bringer to the UK
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: henryd on 29 March 2011, 10:46:01
Very true Martin,most F1 teams have a uk base with a few exceptions.
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: albitz on 29 March 2011, 10:46:35
The nationality of the employees is irrelevant. We are discussing how to make F1 an exciting to watch motor racing spectacle again. I dont think its the right thing to maintain the pinnacle of world motor sport as a tedious boring procession just to protect jobs - British or otherwise. Besides, peopelw ho are that clever and qualified will not usually find it hard to earn a good living. ;)
Title: Re: F1 - spoiler (and Buffs only)
Post by: Varche on 29 March 2011, 11:12:03
The answer maybe is to have shorter damp races.

30 minutes do or die in skill testing damp track conditions. Grid positions determined by a draw. Kers, variable wing etc controlled by 8 year olds on remote dial up Internet, chosen at random 3 minutes before the race for each car. Could also release animals (hares in Britain, wild boar in Spain, gazelles in Bahrain, Beaver in Russia for additional excitement) part way through the race. ;D