Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 14 April 2011, 23:40:12
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Take a look at this junction:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Northcote+Road+and+Battersea+Rise&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&t=h&sll=51.460558,-0.167209&sspn=0.001808,0.004233&rq=1&ev=zi&split=1&filter=0&radius=0.11&hq=Northcote+Road+and+Battersea+Rise&hnear=&ll=51.460846,-0.167069&spn=0.001808,0.004233&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.460684,-0.166976&panoid=JntCZhtsJSfBhghk1CgH2w&cbp=12,355.78,,0,9.01
9,000 drivers were snapped by CCTV cameras when they found themselves stuck in the middle of junction, and were promptly sent a fine for £120. Motorists were further enraged to find out that experts from the Government and TfL were aware that the junction was confusing and likely to catch drivers out. A Department for Transport official signed off permission for the box on the A3 after stating drivers could be “left in a somewhat awkward situation."
http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/home/2011/04/tfl-have-a-new-favourite-cash-point-in-wandsworth.html#comments
What is the world coming to? £1m in fines at a junction that no-one understands?
Grrrrr.... >:(
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Clever little money earner that.
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been caught there before that junction is a nightmare and theres plenty more like it in london
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Well I've looked at that link for 5 minutes, run up and down it using google earth .. and can see no problems ... Its a staggered crossroads with box markings.
Only 3 possible exits. You know which exit you wish to take.. if it is blocked don't enter the box. End of.
As I was once told .. box junctions only make all drivers do what good drivers do without question ... don't enter a junction without somewhere to go.
I cannot see how that junction has taken so much money .. unless all the drivers in the town are complete planks.
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I disagree, E. You are at the lights wishing to turn left, as per the Google photo, and one car is ahead of you. There are no vehicles in sight, as far as you can see. The car in front moves off and you follow. As soon as you get round the corner, the car in front stops due to congestion and you are forced to stop in the box, like a patsy...just waiting for the £120 fine. >:(
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Well I've looked at that link for 5 minutes, run up and down it using google earth .. and can see no problems ... Its a staggered crossroads with box markings.
Only 3 possible exits. You know which exit you wish to take.. if it is blocked don't enter the box. End of.
As I was once told .. box junctions only make all drivers do what good drivers do without question ... don't enter a junction without somewhere to go.
I cannot see how that junction has taken so much money .. unless all the drivers in the town are complete planks.
totally different at rush hour when theres plenty of dicks on the road i was cut up by a bus and had to stop in the middle of the junction and got snapped >:(
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I disagree, E. You are at the lights wishing to turn left, as per the Google photo, and one car is ahead of you. There are no vehicles in sight, as far as you can see. The car in front moves off and you follow. As soon as you get round the corner, the car in front stops due to congestion and you are forced to stop in the box, like a patsy...just waiting for the £120 fine. >:(
Entering a box junction you should NOT just "follow" .. you ONLY enter a box junction when the exit is clear ... NOT when you "hope" the exit is clear.
So the car in front moves off, you STOP at the edge of the box until there is a space for you on the far side THEN you cross the box .. not rocket science .. !!!
Not only exactly how I was taught to drive .. but how the highway code tells you ... section 174 .. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
My highlight ... :)
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I disagree, E. You are at the lights wishing to turn left, as per the Google photo, and one car is ahead of you. There are no vehicles in sight, as far as you can see. The car in front moves off and you follow. As soon as you get round the corner, the car in front stops due to congestion and you are forced to stop in the box, like a patsy...just waiting for the £120 fine. >:(
Entering a box junction you should NOT just "follow" .. you ONLY enter a box junction when the exit is clear ... NOT when you "hope" the exit is clear.
So the car in front moves off, you STOP at the edge of the box until there is a space for you on the far side THEN you cross the box .. not rocket science .. !!!
Not only exactly how I was taught to drive .. but how the highway code tells you ... section 174 .. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
My highlight ... :)
E, if you stop at the edge of the box, you are obstructing a pedestrian crossing. You are beyond the lights in no-man's-land! ;)
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I disagree, E. You are at the lights wishing to turn left, as per the Google photo, and one car is ahead of you. There are no vehicles in sight, as far as you can see. The car in front moves off and you follow. As soon as you get round the corner, the car in front stops due to congestion and you are forced to stop in the box, like a patsy...just waiting for the £120 fine. >:(
Entering a box junction you should NOT just "follow" .. you ONLY enter a box junction when the exit is clear ... NOT when you "hope" the exit is clear.
So the car in front moves off, you STOP at the edge of the box until there is a space for you on the far side THEN you cross the box .. not rocket science .. !!!
Not only exactly how I was taught to drive .. but how the highway code tells you ... section 174 .. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
My highlight ... :)
E, if you stop at the edge of the box, you are obstructing a pedestrian crossing. You are beyond the lights in no-man's-land! ;)
If the lights are green for you, you are allowed to cross the pedestrian crossing, you then stop at the edge of the box. If the lights then change they are BEHIND you. Then when the exit from the box is clear, you move on, giving way to traffic from the right if required, ensuring that traffic has cleared the box before proceding.
I agree it is bad design to put a cycle stop, a pedestrian crossing and a box junction is such close proximity, but that does not make it "impossible" to drive it legally .. it just requires care, attention and concentration... none of which are obtainable whilst texting, phoning or eating.
:)
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I know the junction in question and it is easy to get caught out... But as E says, if you follow the Highway Code you can stay clear of the box ;) ;)
Trouble is, it's easy to get carried away with the green light and just go for it ::) ::)
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Everything Nige says makes perfect sense to me, but - driving through London in the middle of rush hour, easy to make a mistake. ;)
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Entwoods right - you can clearly see 10 feet past the edge of the box from any combination of entrance/exit....
although to be fair at rush hour i'm guessing if you waited for your exit to be clear you'd be stuck for a few hours ;D
the weirdest thing tho is there are people actually eating in Nandos :o :o ;D
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You just need to plan ahead and not just be in zombie mode and follow everything in front without thinking, the yellow lines of the keep clear box are simple, don't stop inside them. The red Merc in the photo should stop around 2 feet back from where he is, if he clearly could see stationary traffic on his left turn.
9,000 drivers 'caught out' in a year, errr yeah and? How many drivers pass through that every week? 150,000? Who knows!
One thing is for sure, once fined, do you not think they might be a bit more active when it comes to future situations with keep clear box?
Like your rant on the BBC's use of 6 classes on staffs new commute for Manchester, I get the impression you take one small part of a story that you don't like from that utter toilet paper shyte paper Daily Mail then go into rant mode.
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You just need to plan ahead and not just be in zombie mode and follow everything in front without thinking, the yellow lines of the keep clear box are simple, don't stop inside them. The red Merc in the photo should stop around 2 feet back from where he is, if he clearly could see stationary traffic on his left turn.
9,000 drivers 'caught out' in a year, errr yeah and? How many drivers pass through that every week? 150,000? Who knows!
One thing is for sure, once fined, do you not think they might be a bit more active when it comes to future situations with keep clear box?
Like your rant on the BBC's use of 6 classes on staffs new commute for Manchester, I get the impression you take one small part of a story that you don't like from that utter toilet paper shyte paper Daily Mail then go into rant mode.
Sorry, Tunnie, but even TfL admitted that drivers could be "left in a somewhat awkward situation" when they signed off the design. ::)
With regard to your second point, this is not "some small part of a story", it did not come from the Daily Mail, and I was not having a rant. Why couldn't you just repond with civility instead of having a poke at me and the subjects about which I choose to post? Really a bit unpleasant, Tunnie.
>:(
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You just need to plan ahead and not just be in zombie mode and follow everything in front without thinking, the yellow lines of the keep clear box are simple, don't stop inside them. The red Merc in the photo should stop around 2 feet back from where he is, if he clearly could see stationary traffic on his left turn.
9,000 drivers 'caught out' in a year, errr yeah and? How many drivers pass through that every week? 150,000? Who knows!
One thing is for sure, once fined, do you not think they might be a bit more active when it comes to future situations with keep clear box?
Like your rant on the BBC's use of 6 classes on staffs new commute for Manchester, I get the impression you take one small part of a story that you don't like from that utter toilet paper shyte paper Daily Mail then go into rant mode.
Sorry, Tunnie, but even TfL admitted that drivers could be "left in a somewhat awkward situation" when they signed off the design. ::)
With regard to your second point, this is not "some small part of a story", it did not come from the Daily Mail, and I was not having a rant. Why couldn't you just repond with civility instead of having a poke at me and the subjects about which I choose to post? Really a bit unpleasant, Tunnie.
>:(
Errr whats to 'design'? Its a cross roads with keep clear box? :-/ :-/
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Errr whats to 'design'? Its a cross roads with keep clear box? :-/ :-/
To quote Entwood:
"I agree it is bad design to put a cycle stop, a pedestrian crossing and a box junction is such close proximity"
::) ::) ::)
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i still don't see any massive problem with it, there are countless similar setups in London. You stop at the lights, move forward past the cycle stop and crossing (which is standard setup in london) I cycle to work, and that crossing is no different that 100's of others, straight on or right turn, dead easy, left turn, before you make the swing left into the box, if there are stationary cars just up to the box edge you don't move, simples! :)
Like I said before, if your not in zombie mode, that's totality avoidable if you think ahead. If you get a fine, well, its clearly marked, so tough, its your fault!
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What is the world coming to? £1m in fines at a junction that no-one understands?
Also on this point, "no one understands"? So why is every single driver not getting fined? 9,000 were.... 2 people per hour on average. I guess a lot more than 2 people go through that junction every hour ;)
So some stupid drivers end up coughing up some money, which lets face it councils need to fix potholes, so whats the down side? :-/
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i still don't see any massive problem with it, there are countless similar setups in London. You stop at the lights, move forward past the cycle stop and crossing (which is standard setup in london) I cycle to work, and that crossing is no different that 100's of others, straight on or right turn, dead easy, left turn, before you make the swing left into the box, if there are stationary cars just up to the box edge you don't move, simples! :)
Like I said before, if your not in zombie mode, that's totality avoidable if you think ahead. If you get a fine, well, its clearly marked, so tough, its your fault!
So an oncoming vehicle and you both want to trun left (right in his/her case). From what you both can see, there is enough space for a car to fit beyond the exit of the box, so you both go. He's sharper of the mark (or drives a motorcycle) and beats you to the space beyond the box. Lights change and you still have your backsiide in the box. £120 Kerr-ching!
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Like any junction its a judgement call, no matter how many times i pan around on street view, I can't see it being any different to the 100's other junctions in London. Or why its a big issue?
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http://goo.gl/maps/pohi
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8068422/Yellow-box-camera-raises-1-million-a-year.html
Same thing?
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Like any junction its a judgement call, no matter how many times i pan around on street view, I can't see it being any different to the 100's other junctions in London. Or why its a big issue?
Evidently, this junction was singled out because the amount of transgressions & income derived was ascertained. £120 is a hefty fine to pay if you are caught out, as 9000 drivers have been. It is clear in my mind that you may make the best "judgement call" as you term it, and yet still get stranded on the yellow, through no basic fault of your own. The design of the box in relation to the buildings does not allow vehicles travelling in the camera direction (North, I would guess) to ascertain with any degree of certainty the amount of free space available for a left turn. Of course, we think in terms of cars and motorcycles, but I would not want to be driving an long artic and making a £120 gamble on that. :-?
Besides which, just because there are other junctions like that doesn't mean it makes it any less of a poor design.
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i still don't see any massive problem with it, there are countless similar setups in London. You stop at the lights, move forward past the cycle stop and crossing (which is standard setup in london) I cycle to work, and that crossing is no different that 100's of others, straight on or right turn, dead easy, left turn, before you make the swing left into the box, if there are stationary cars just up to the box edge you don't move, simples! :)
Like I said before, if your not in zombie mode, that's totality avoidable if you think ahead. If you get a fine, well, its clearly marked, so tough, its your fault!
So an oncoming vehicle and you both want to trun left (right in his/her case). From what you both can see, there is enough space for a car to fit beyond the exit of the box, so you both go. He's sharper of the mark (or drives a motorcycle) and beats you to the space beyond the box. Lights change and you still have your backsiide in the box. £120 Kerr-ching!
That vehicle is already on the "box" and is, by definition, to YOUR RIGHT. In this country, there is a simple rule .. "priority from the right". You should wait for that vehicle to pass, then check there is space for you to clear the box .. before you move into the box.
It is NOT a race.
It's not rocket science .. it is simply obeying the "rules" and driving properly.
As already said .. "only" 9000 people have been done .. a tiny percentage of those who drive the junction .. and do it correctly.
Unfortunately, many drivers seem to think the rules don't apply to them, if they get fined and learn the hard way ... that's OK by me .. :)
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i still don't see any massive problem with it, there are countless similar setups in London. You stop at the lights, move forward past the cycle stop and crossing (which is standard setup in london) I cycle to work, and that crossing is no different that 100's of others, straight on or right turn, dead easy, left turn, before you make the swing left into the box, if there are stationary cars just up to the box edge you don't move, simples! :)
Like I said before, if your not in zombie mode, that's totality avoidable if you think ahead. If you get a fine, well, its clearly marked, so tough, its your fault!
So an oncoming vehicle and you both want to trun left (right in his/her case). From what you both can see, there is enough space for a car to fit beyond the exit of the box, so you both go. He's sharper of the mark (or drives a motorcycle) and beats you to the space beyond the box. Lights change and you still have your backsiide in the box. £120 Kerr-ching!
That vehicle is already on the "box" and is, by definition, to YOUR RIGHT. In this country, there is a simple rule .. "priority from the right". You should wait for that vehicle to pass, then check there is space for you to clear the box .. before you move into the box.
It is NOT a race.
It's not rocket science .. it is simply obeying the "rules" and driving properly.
As already said .. "only" 9000 people have been done .. a tiny percentage of those who drive the junction .. and do it correctly.
Unfortunately, many drivers seem to think the rules don't apply to them, if they get fined and learn the hard way ... that's OK by me .. :)
If you both set off at the same time then you are likely not to realise the oncoming vehicle has eneterd the box until you are at least a few feet into it yourself. What do you do then? Stop? Reverse? :-?
Funny how many expert 100% of the time law-abiding drivers there are on here. :o ;)
I am well aware of the priority rules "in this country". I was born here. ;) :D
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You just need to plan ahead and not just be in zombie mode and follow everything in front without thinking, the yellow lines of the keep clear box are simple, don't stop inside them. The red Merc in the photo should stop around 2 feet back from where he is, if he clearly could see stationary traffic on his left turn.
9,000 drivers 'caught out' in a year, errr yeah and? How many drivers pass through that every week? 150,000? Who knows!
One thing is for sure, once fined, do you not think they might be a bit more active when it comes to future situations with keep clear box?
Like your rant on the BBC's use of 6 classes on staffs new commute for Manchester, I get the impression you take one small part of a story that you don't like from that utter toilet paper shyte paper Daily Mail then go into rant mode.
150,000 a day more like that is a main through fare to cut across london with out going in to the con zone
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I'm with Tunnie and Entwood on this. It's a no-brainer as far as the HC is concerned. I just dont agree with the cameras :y
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I'm with Tunnie and Entwood on this. It's a no-brainer as far as the HC is concerned. I just dont agree with the cameras :y
I think there should be more. Especially on the road to Church Stanton, so that motorcyclists can get hefty fines for overtaking on double solid white lines.
;) ;D
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I'm with Tunnie and Entwood on this. It's a no-brainer as far as the HC is concerned. I just dont agree with the cameras :y
I think there should be more. Especially on the road to Church Stanton, so that motorcyclists can get hefty fines for overtaking on double solid white lines.
;) ;D
Tis fine, I was in Church Stretton! ;D ;D
Yes I did bend the law there, but I knew there were no cameras, no one behind me, and they were holding me up ::)