Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: feeutfo on 28 April 2011, 09:16:49
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Honda have had this in Motopg for a while, rumored to be coming to road bikes possibly in 2012. Changes gear with zero loss of drive. No need for double clutch gear box such as DSG or the like, can be automatic or manual due to the minimal force needed to change gears.
On bikes it does away with need for gearbox destroying quick shifters that cut ignition spark to allow gears to disengage/engage during loss of drive. Traditionally bikes use angled dogs to pull themselves together as they engage, meaning there must be a drop in drive to shift gears.
Not anymore. Cheap to make, compact, and best of all Zeroshift are a British company.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJHjiUheod8&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]
Xtrac have a similar less compact idea, so I guesss formula 1 have had something similar for a while....?
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Hmm. The way I see it, the speed of the bike cannot change instantaneously. Neither can the speed of the engine, so something has to break if you don't lift off a little during a shift?
Kevin
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The onboard shots from behind the rider look very similar afaict. Old style quick shifters gave the rider a jolt as the next gear engaged. Something that makes me wince through mechanical sympathy as, if it was my bike, as the gear box would be breaked in 6 months, so I'd retard the shifter timing to give a smoother change. But they get a new engine sooner so who cares.
With this the rider still gets a jolt from what I can see as the taller gear engages. The difference is, the dogs are slid in to the next taller " floating"(?) gear while the drive gear is still engaged. The taller gear takes up the slack, as its taller, and away you go. The jolt is transferred between the gears on a flat surface full on, rather than the old way of angled dogs pulling themselves together meaning the point of the dog wares on the corner with all that drive on such a small area. The slightest ware on those corners/tips of the dogs can give a lot of sift problems on a traditional bike gear box, meaning the gears don't pull themselves together, and no next gear... WAAAAAABABABAB
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Should add, ime DSG's give a similar surge, although less abrupt.
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The slightest ware on those corners/tips of the dogs can give a lot of sift problems on a traditional bike gear box, meaning the gears don't pull themselves together, and no next gear... WAAAAAABABABAB
Whereas, on this box, if you have the 2 gears engaged for more than a nanosecond, the whole transmission locks solid, and you need a new bike and new underwear, leathers, etc. :o
I'm sure it would work OK, just can't see how it would make a massive difference except to the physical engagement of the gears since you haven't done anything to mitigate the massive transmission shocks that an instantaneous shift would cause. (Whereas with a DSG gearbox, for example, you have clutches that you can fine tune to compromise between slow shifts and massive wear, albeit they are a pain in the crack in most other respects).
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The slightest ware on those corners/tips of the dogs can give a lot of sift problems on a traditional bike gear box, meaning the gears don't pull themselves together, and no next gear... WAAAAAABABABAB
Whereas, on this box, if you have the 2 gears engaged for more than a nanosecond, the whole transmission locks solid, and you need a new bike and new underwear, leathers, etc. :o
I'm sure it would work OK, just can't see how it would make a massive difference except to the physical engagement of the gears since you haven't done anything to mitigate the massive transmission shocks that an instantaneous shift would cause. (Whereas with a DSG gearbox, for example, you have clutches that you can fine tune to compromise between slow shifts and massive wear, albeit they are a pain in the crack in most other respects).
It is minimal advantage, but for racing, race simulations show 1.5 seconds a lap advantage. Over a race distance that's a different world. :y
For road bikes, or anything else for that matter the clutch can still be used, it's still there they haven't done away with it, as is the Cush drive in the rear hub. You can ride sensibly, or get angry and just kick the lever, don't even shut the throttle.
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Plus the back of the dogs in the video are angled, so disengage themselves.
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I guess the proof of the pudding..
Nice to see someone working on a simple, elegant solution to a problem rather than trying to shoehorn 2 of everything in like DSG. Less is more...
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I guess the proof of the pudding..
Nice to see someone working on a simple, elegant solution to a problem rather than trying to shoehorn 2 of everything in like DSG. Less is more...
Indeed, it's so simple... And all that.
They have designs from scooters to Trucks, can add a double clutch if needed for refinement on autos I guess...? Would it need double clutch? I've run out of brain. ;D
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Some bumpf
http://www.zeroshift.com/assets/pdf/Zeroshift%20AT.pdf
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I just accept that my poor old Kwaka won't do 1st to 2nd at anything above 40mph, double clutching or brute force...
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I just accept that my poor old Kwaka won't do 1st to 2nd at anything above 40mph, double clutching or brute force...
I had my zx6 gear box apart, very poor from Mr Heavy Industries. It looked like the crank case wasn't lined up correctly when they machined it, everything was off/twisted.
Time for a new/other one J. Zx9 c1 or 2 I reckon. :y
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I just accept that my poor old Kwaka won't do 1st to 2nd at anything above 40mph, double clutching or brute force...
I had my zx6 gear box apart, very poor from Mr Heavy Industries. It looked like the crank case wasn't lined up correctly when they machined it, everything was off/twisted.
Time for a new/other one J. Zx9 c1 or 2 I reckon. :y
Or just change gear before about 8k rpm in first... ...helps keep the front down as well.
Wouldn't mind having the gearbox apart, I have an annoying oil leak from gear change shaft. But I haven't got the first clue where to start ;D
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I guess the proof of the pudding..
Nice to see someone working on a simple, elegant solution to a problem rather than trying to shoehorn 2 of everything in like DSG. Less is more...
To me DSG looks like a bodge
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I just accept that my poor old Kwaka won't do 1st to 2nd at anything above 40mph, double clutching or brute force...
I had my zx6 gear box apart, very poor from Mr Heavy Industries. It looked like the crank case wasn't lined up correctly when they machined it, everything was off/twisted.
Time for a new/other one J. Zx9 c1 or 2 I reckon. :y
Or just change gear before about 8k rpm in first... ...helps keep the front down as well.
Wouldn't mind having the gearbox apart, I have an annoying oil leak from gear change shaft. But I haven't got the first clue where to start ;D
Depends on that model, but usually lump out, turn it upside down, remove the lower half of crank case etc. Remove the gears on their shafts and find the damaged ones,or any bent/worn selector forks, re fit.
As an example, gears can range from £120 to £60 per gear depending,on a gsxr 1000 01-04. Plus you need your shims doing, and carb needles and jets most likey will be worn too. Cam chain? Clutch wear....? I'd balance that lot against a lower miles lump tbh, seeing as the engine needs to come out anyway.
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To me DSG looks like a bodge
They are tiresome things to drive as well, IMHO, and then there's the (un)reliability...
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To me DSG looks like a bodge
They are tiresome things to drive as well, IMHO, and then there's the (un)reliability...
Her company Golf was quite punchy through the gears. I enjoyed driving it, but no way would we want own one, just in case.
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To me DSG looks like a bodge
They are tiresome things to drive as well, IMHO, and then there's the (un)reliability...
I trust the old style torque converter boxes
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To me DSG looks like a bodge
They are tiresome things to drive as well, IMHO, and then there's the (un)reliability...
I trust the old style torque converter boxes
Totally different things, though - one is a proper gearbox and the other a slushbox ;)
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To me DSG looks like a bodge
They are tiresome things to drive as well, IMHO, and then there's the (un)reliability...
Her company Golf was quite punchy through the gears. I enjoyed driving it, but no way would we want own one, just in case.
A swift change is all well and good when playing, but there are times when even you or I just want a smooth, sedate drive...
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A swift change is all well and good when playing, but there are times when even you or I just want a smooth, sedate drive...
Nail on the head. :y
A DSG box can't make a smooth change. Move gently away from the lights and it crashes through the first 3 gears before you've even got to the other side of the junction.
You might as well wring its' neck everywhere, because it only makes aggressive shifts. ;D
Actually, it was a hire car, so not sure why I didn't think of that. ::)
Kevin
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A swift change is all well and good when playing, but there are times when even you or I just want a smooth, sedate drive...
Nail on the head. :y
A DSG box can't make a smooth change. Move gently away from the lights and it crashes through the first 3 gears before you've even got to the other side of the junction.
You might as well wring its' neck everywhere, because it only makes aggressive shifts. ;D
Actually, it was a hire car, so not sure why I didn't think of that. ::)
Kevin
Never a problem, :-? even as a passenger. ;). In fact we had some pterol head passengers in the back that where suitably impressed at all "levels" of driving. No problems here ime. Even on the down changes, before DTM pipes up.
Only issue we had on that car was the fekin useless poxy climate control and the dealers trying (not) to sort it. >:(