Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Mikes1670 on 06 August 2011, 12:31:57
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Friend of mine had a puncture repaired at Kwik-fit which cost £20 for a plug and at the same time they re-inflated all his tyres with nitrogen. He seems to think it has made quite a difference (reduction in road noise apparently). Also, you are supposed to get more consistent tyre wear as nitrogen is more stable given temperature variations depending on type of driving.
Just wondered if else is a nitrogen convert. :)
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I get mine done with nitrogen, but only because I am friends with the manager at my local Kwik Fit so I get staff discount on any work and he does nitrogen fills for nothing on new tyres for me.
I haven't noticed any real difference but then again I haven't really owned any particularly decent cars in the past.
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Considering it on mine tbh. Lower profile tyres on 18 rims and sports contact 3's are sensitive to pressure changes. General weather and seasonal changes have an effect Feel and ride quality being important go me.
However most seem to go for this to prevent slow leaks or gradual air loss over a couple of weeks. Something better remedied by removing the tyre from the wheel and insuring the beed and rim are clean allowing a good seal.
I very much doubt there will be any change in road noise though.
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According to Wikipedia: Dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases. Air also contains a variable amount of water vapour, on average around 1%.
Changes in pressure due to changes in temperature are pretty much the same for any gas. Any benefit is going to be down to the elimination of water (or maybe just the reassuring feeling you get when you buy something in a bottle when you could have got it for free :P)
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External atmospheric pressure varies according to weather conditions. Allowing the tyres internal pressure to vary as well. On most cars it's not necessary. But if pressures are critical for what ever reason it can help.
As Entwood is on Hols we won't get his aircraft tyre explanation that their tyres can expand to dangerous levels at altitude and be heavily affected by changes in temperature from cold to extreme heat on landing etc if air is used.
Nitrogen answers all those questions.
Obviously cars don't encounter those extremes normally. But it can have it's uses. Although mostly these uses are canceled out due to availability and convenience. Plus, there will always be some air in there no matter what you do.
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As prev. mentioned the normal air in the tyre is already 78% nitrogen. Also consider that if you fill with nitrogen and then need a top up you will need to go back to where you got it done and not just any old petrol station.
This is what made me decide against it but there prob. is a very slight improvement but would it be enough for you to notice?
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Theory is if it works as advertised we won't notice any change at all, as the pressure won't vary at all.
Only if noticing a variation or a change in pressure (thats not a leak) would it be needed!
There is also the theory that Nitrogen is a gas with bigger particles or molecules. So there for normal air loss won't happen, but as said, ime clean the wheel rim to give a good seal and that's negligible anyway(within the confines of regular tyre pressure checks anyway) Something almost always over looked at fast fit places until the owner decides they have a slow puncture.
In the past I have considered fitting tyre pressure sensors in an effort to fully understand operating temps, cold temps, temp changes and obviously be warned of a puncture etc. But they ain't cheap, and how far do you go with it all. Plus real time data and it's usefulness is never apparent until actually fitted and working. By then, if it's crap, it's too late.
I have a compressor in the garage anyway, so that's far more convenient than nipping up the petrol station.
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...nitrogen is more stable given temperature variations ...
Not. ;D
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I assume it requires some kind of vacuum system to clear out the normal air first ? otherwise it would be a waste of time surely.
Shame really as we have so many bottles of OFN (oxygen free nitrogen) at work that I could have a bottle at home.
I smell snake oil here for road use.
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I assume it requires some kind of vacuum system to clear out the normal air first ? otherwise it would be a waste of time surely.
Shame really as we have so many bottles of OFN (oxygen free nitrogen) at work that I could have a bottle at home.
I smell snake oil here for road use.
Me too.
Nitrogen is subject to the same gas laws / laws of physics as any other gas.
I can see how it can be an advantage at a race meeting to have a bottle of clean dry nitrogen on your tool trolley instead of having to lug an air compressor around.
I also know that some hospitals use a 'molecular sieve' to separate oxygen molecules (atomic mass = 8) from nitrogen molecules (atomic mass=7) in the air in order to generate oxygen to give to patients so there might be something in that angle. The gases that have tiny molecules are Hydrogen (atomic mass = 1) and Helium (atomic mass =2). They do leak away quickly but they aren't present in significant quantities in the atmosphere. :-/
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It's certainly not snake oil as such.
Is it suitable in this application... Given regular tyre checks are still vital anyway, and a couple of presses on the valve with a pressure gauge can release a psi or two anyway, it doesn't really make sense IMO for day to day.
The odd fully loaded trip will throw a spanner in the works by adding and releasing the relevant psi back down to normal pressures if your nitrogen supplier is closed and at£20 a pop that aint happening. Even if it is was worth while.
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It's certainly not snake oil as such.
Is it suitable in this application... Given regular tyre checks are still vital anyway, and a couple of presses on the valve with a pressure gauge can release a psi or two anyway, it doesn't really make sense IMO for day to day.
The odd fully loaded trip will throw a spanner in the works by adding and releasing the relevant psi back down to normal pressures if your nitrogen supplier is closed and at£20 a pop that aint happening. Even if it is was worth while.
I am not saying it is totally useless, but for 99.99% of road users will it make any, any difference ?
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Further more, another question, operating temperature gives an operating pressure because warm tyres have increased pressure due to heat, hence all tyres pressures are quoted cold.
What pressures do Nitrogen suppliers recommend? Because the stock pressures will now be useless as the tyres pressure won't increase correctly because the pressure won't increase with the tyre temperature if Nitrogen is used.
Get that wrong and the tyre could be permanently under inflated... No?
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Further more, another question, operating temperature gives an operating pressure because warm tyres have increased pressure due to heat, hence all tyres pressures are quoted cold.
What pressures do Nitrogen suppliers recommend? Because the stock pressures will now be useless as the tyres pressure won't increase correctly because the pressure won't increase with the tyre temperature if Nitrogen is used.
Get that wrong and the tyre could be permanently under inflated... No?
This is nonsense I'm afraid Chris.
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Further more, another question, operating temperature gives an operating pressure because warm tyres have increased pressure due to heat, hence all tyres pressures are quoted cold.
What pressures do Nitrogen suppliers recommend? Because the stock pressures will now be useless as the tyres pressure won't increase correctly because the pressure won't increase with the tyre temperature if Nitrogen is used.
Get that wrong and the tyre could be permanently under inflated... No?
This is nonsense I'm afraid Chris.
Which bit...? That Nitrogen won't expand with heat?
If so there's no point using it, fair enough.
However there is a part of that equation I believe to be useful. Rightly or wrongly. :)
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it is not just shocking fit that uses nitrogen ATS do it as well in a avation application it is used/needed but on cars not really an issue...but what happen when you check your tyre pressure and have to refill it a PITA paying 20p let alone £ 20 a corner!!...i think it more a gimmick than anything else :y
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Further more, another question, operating temperature gives an operating pressure because warm tyres have increased pressure due to heat, hence all tyres pressures are quoted cold.
What pressures do Nitrogen suppliers recommend? Because the stock pressures will now be useless as the tyres pressure won't increase correctly because the pressure won't increase with the tyre temperature if Nitrogen is used.
Get that wrong and the tyre could be permanently under inflated... No?
This is nonsense I'm afraid Chris.
Which bit...? That Nitrogen won't expand with heat?
If so there's no point using it, fair enough.
However there is a part of that equation I believe to be useful. Rightly or wrongly. :)
Sorry, should have been clearer, nitrogen will expand with heat just like any other gas. Just because some marketing type at Kwik Fit claims it's exempt from the laws of physics does not make it so. :)
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Further more, another question, operating temperature gives an operating pressure because warm tyres have increased pressure due to heat, hence all tyres pressures are quoted cold.
What pressures do Nitrogen suppliers recommend? Because the stock pressures will now be useless as the tyres pressure won't increase correctly because the pressure won't increase with the tyre temperature if Nitrogen is used.
Get that wrong and the tyre could be permanently under inflated... No?
This is nonsense I'm afraid Chris.
Which bit...? That Nitrogen won't expand with heat?
If so there's no point using it, fair enough.
However there is a part of that equation I believe to be useful. Rightly or wrongly. :)
Exactly - nitrogen expands with increase in temperature just like any other gas. Charles Law (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/charles-law-d_1277.html) If it can't expand then the pressure increases. Boyles Law (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boyles-law-d_1276.html)
The only way it could be beneficial is if the water vapour makes the pressure increase more pronounced Dalton's Law (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/humid-air-ideal-gas-d_677.html). If I can find some figures for the water content of compressed air I might be able to work out some answers using the Gas Laws.
I wonder how hot a tyre gets in use?
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I was going to ask about this. My new (06 plate) TGA MAN truck has stickers on the body above the front wheels saying nitrogen filled. I asked a tyre fitter & he was'nt sure but said fitters have to be re trained & carry said gas to re inflate but added my truck tyres are probably air filled by now as it's an expensive impractical gimmick which sounds righrt to me. If a Kingsway tyre fitter has no experience of them since 06 then it obviously has caught on for everyday use so on that premis i guess there is nothing to be gained by using it in an everyday car regardless of techie discussions.
I did hear Clarkson say a new sporty Datsun he was testing had them so maybe it's only for planes or hihg pperformance cars. Everyday cars & trucks like ours, probably not. ::)
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put helium in my tyres and it just floats along now...
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put helium in my tyres and it just floats along now...
;D :D :y
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If you buy a tyre from Costco it'll be Nitrogen filled. If you need it topping up just take it back to them & they'll re-fill for nothing. :y :y
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If you buy a tyre from Costco it'll be Nitrogen filled. If you need it topping up just take it back to them & they'll re-fill for nothing. :y :y
Hello matey. Still not much help if you notice it's a tad low when not at a Costco.
Sorry, i'll stick with air! :y
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Placebo?
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If you buy a tyre from Costco it'll be Nitrogen filled. If you need it topping up just take it back to them & they'll re-fill for nothing. :y :y
Hello matey. Still not much help if you notice it's a tad low when not at a Costco.
Sorry, i'll stick with air! :y
So do I. :y :y :y
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They fill tyres with Nitrogen at WIM. Aparently one reason is less water vapour in tyre compared to the run of the mill air inflation units on garage forecourts.
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I was going to ask about this. My new (06 plate) TGA MAN truck has stickers on the body above the front wheels saying nitrogen filled. I asked a tyre fitter & he was'nt sure but said fitters have to be re trained & carry said gas to re inflate but added my truck tyres are probably air filled by now as it's an expensive impractical gimmick which sounds righrt to me. If a Kingsway tyre fitter has no experience of them since 06 then it obviously has caught on for everyday use so on that premis i guess there is nothing to be gained by using it in an everyday car regardless of techie discussions.
I did hear Clarkson say a new sporty Datsun he was testing had them so maybe it's only for planes or hihg pperformance cars. Everyday cars & trucks like ours, probably not. ::)
Correct... The Nissan Skyline has had nitrogen in its tyres from the factory for a good few years now. Nissan made quite a fuss about! However, they also said that each gearbox is specifically built to work with a certain engine, as all the engines are hand built and are slightly different. They also say that horse power figures can differ between engines!! Sounds like a load of bull to me! ::) What happens when you need a new gearbox? :-/
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Correct... The Nissan Skyline has had nitrogen in its tyres from the factory for a good few years now. Nissan made quite a fuss about! However, they also said that each gearbox is specifically built to work with a certain engine, as all the engines are hand built and are slightly different. They also say that horse power figures can differ between engines!! Sounds like a load of bull to me! ::) What happens when you need a new gearbox? :-/
Another way to read that is that their production tolerances are so sh1t that they have to fettle every gearbox before it'll fit the engine. ;D
.. or that it's some load of old bull created by a marketing consultant somewhere. ::)
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So, if I want nitrogen filled tyres what would it cost?
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What is meant by 'snake oil for road use?' :-/
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What is meant by 'snake oil for road use?' :-/
Roughly speaking, snake oil means of "no use what so ever" think inline fuel conditioning magnets.
Snake oil for road use kinda means can have benefits in some circumstamces, but very few people would ever get any benefit from it.
Hope this helps.
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Nitrogen inflation does make a difference but it's impractical for most road users... You can's adjust the pressures according to load for a start ;)
On a track vehicle or even a motorbike where the pressures are set and not regularly adjusted I can see the benefit, but not on a normal road car IMO
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nitrogen filling is ok for spring and summer only..
tire shops do recommend to use normal air for cold weather..