Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 02 August 2011, 21:38:26
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Couldn't find the original thread, but it seems like the government could have (and could still) exclude Siemens, thus giving the Thameslink contract to Bombardier.
Reading this story, I get a whiff of something rotten...
http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Proof-rail-deal-scrapped/story-13023504-detail/story.html
::) ::) >:(
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I cant see anything rotten, I wouldn't have awarded them the contract either given its a train type that they ahev never designed or constructed before.
Its like having Rover turn up to build the next set of military armoured cars!
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I cant see anything rotten, I wouldn't have awarded them the contract either given its a train type that they ahev never designed or constructed before.
Its like having Rover turn up to build the next set of military armoured cars!
with the head gasket keep going :)
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I cant see anything rotten, I wouldn't have awarded them the contract either given its a train type that they ahev never designed or constructed before.
Its like having Rover turn up to build the next set of military armoured cars!
Can't agree with that sweeping statement at all, Mark. Bombardier have a pretty good record worldwide and recognised what was needed for this project.
http://www.therailengineer.com/FeaturedArticles/railengineer/view/72
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I cant see anything rotten, I wouldn't have awarded them the contract either given its a train type that they ahev never designed or constructed before.
Its like having Rover turn up to build the next set of military armoured cars!
Can't agree with that sweeping statement at all, Mark. Bombardier have a pretty good record worldwide and recognised what was needed for this project.
http://www.therailengineer.com/FeaturedArticles/railengineer/view/72
Means jack, the spec for the Thameslink stuff is a bit unusual (and nowt like they have done before) plus, the current Bombardier stuff has been having 'issues'.
Yes, I am sure thay could design one but, its a risk for the operator and not one I would take personaly (because the public will only moan like hell when it keeps failing).
I should add, I do have a bit of inside knowledge via a friend who works there.
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By the way, the "rotten" bit I was referring to was the fact that Siemens has been heavily fined for bribery in the US & Germany and was barred for two years from bidding for contracts from the World Bank... ::) ::)
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I cant see anything rotten, I wouldn't have awarded them the contract either given its a train type that they ahev never designed or constructed before.
Its like having Rover turn up to build the next set of military armoured cars!
Can't agree with that sweeping statement at all, Mark. Bombardier have a pretty good record worldwide and recognised what was needed for this project.
http://www.therailengineer.com/FeaturedArticles/railengineer/view/72
Means jack, the spec for the Thameslink stuff is a bit unusual (and nowt like they have done before) plus, the current Bombardier stuff has been having 'issues'.
Yes, I am sure thay could design one but, its a risk for the operator and not one I would take personaly (because the public will only moan like hell when it keeps failing).
I should add, I do have a bit of inside knowledge via a friend who works there.
They make pretty good aircraft. ;)
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I understand that BOMBARDIER, have got vital components e.g the bogies already built, and tested where as SIEMENS are still at the drawing board stage.
Besides as I have stated before, EU law states that the location of the supplier can be taken into account, so the government can use this (as France, and Germany do) to award the conract to Derby.
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What I read was that the issue was not technical, but financial. The company who won the contract have to supply all of the investment finance to build them. Siemans are a much bigger company with a better credit rating so they can borrow the money much more cheaply which gives them about a £200m borrowing cost and price advantage. ::)
If the last Labour Government had set the terms of the contract so the finances were separate from the technical abilities then Bombardier would have been able to compete on a level playing field. :o :D
Politicians are experts on the laws on unintended consequences, to make sure they include them every time. :( They don't care as they have their gold plated expense accounts, diamond encrusted pensions and on the unlikely chance of them being in the duck (sorry dog) house and being kicked out don't forget the big fat severance kickback. >:( >:( >:( It is the tax paying likes of us that picks up the bills for their constant mistakes. Just look at this situation and their record on defence procurement and IT projects :D :D :D
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I hope Bombardier don't get it, their latest stock has appalling reliability, the Victoria line stock was late, they don't appear to be built well, too heavy (track upgrades needed) they also create a lot of heat, much more so than old stock.
Since launch had countless problems with, lets face it basic operations:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23969134-mind-the-doors-then-tube-train-leaves-station-with-them-still-open.do
Bombardier has a history of delivering late trains with faults, I'm glad its going to Siemens! They also have a proven record with leccy trains, delivering them on time and to budget.
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whoever built the new underground metropiltan trains got it right, excellent with air conditioning making the journey very relaxing rather than sweat your balls off into london next to dirty smelly city gents who dont bother washing after a long days work
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This argument is flawed. Isn't this why Britain no longer is a mass producer of good cars and exactly why Germany is?
Bombardier seem to have issues with quality listening to users but couldn't they have been addressed?
IF we ever get High speed trains who is going to build them? Germans? Spanish?Chinese? More jobs gone abroad or more correctly down the pan..............
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This argument is flawed. Isn't this why Britain no longer is a mass producer of good cars and exactly why Germany is?
Bombardier seem to have issues with quality listening to users but couldn't they have been addressed?
IF we ever get High speed trains who is going to build them? Germans? Spanish?Chinese? More jobs gone abroad or more correctly down the pan..............
Yes and no.
The issue is that we no longer have multiple companies who can do this work and a train is not just a train, they are all very different with VERY different under pinnings. I blame lack of investement in the railways for a 30 year period resulting in the home grown companies going (althoguh they should have been better at exports tbh!)
E.g. the likes of Brush are ok at locos but, you would not want them doing multiple units. Bombardier are ok (not great sadly) at diesel multiple units but, not at electric jobbies.
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This argument is flawed. Isn't this why Britain no longer is a mass producer of good cars and exactly why Germany is?
Bombardier seem to have issues with quality listening to users but couldn't they have been addressed?
IF we ever get High speed trains who is going to build them? Germans? Spanish?Chinese? More jobs gone abroad or more correctly down the pan..............
Depends a lot were built at Derby carriage works.
Traction gear - does Brush still make it?
Engines - what is current state of Paxman?
Bogies - UK still world leading
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Paxman - used to manufacture in Colchester iirc - bought out by MAN (German company afaik). I think they may still have some manufacturing capability in the UK,not sure though. :-/
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Paxman - used to manufacture in Colchester iirc - bought out by MAN (German company afaik). I think they may still have some manufacturing capability in the UK,not sure though. :-/
Unless it is only spares.
AFAIK they even do spares for old Napier lumps
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might have Siemens written on the box but look deeper...............parts.....................made in china ......................why ???? cheaper to make and labeled made in Germany.......... how do i know panel fell off 185 cab this morning as i was driving to preston had made in Germany sticker on it with Chinese writing underneath the sticker .me thinks something isnt right with Siemens tbh .dont get me wrong 185 units are great to drive so long as all three engines are running,lots of faults are now showing up
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might have Siemens written on the box but look deeper...............parts.....................made in china ......................why ???? cheaper to make and labeled made in Germany.......... how do i know panel fell off 185 cab this morning as i was driving to preston had made in Germany sticker on it with Chinese writing underneath the sticker .me thinks something isnt right with Siemens tbh .dont get me wrong 185 units are great to drive so long as all three engines are running,lots of faults are now showing up
Why am I not surprised? ::) ::) ;)
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
Its just a shame what they build on top of the bogies is shite!
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)
And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm
That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)
And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm
That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.
Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here. :-/
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This argument is flawed. Isn't this why Britain no longer is a mass producer of good cars and exactly why Germany is?
Bombardier seem to have issues with quality listening to users but couldn't they have been addressed?
IF we ever get High speed trains who is going to build them? Germans? Spanish?Chinese? More jobs gone abroad or more correctly down the pan..............
Bombardier are just like a local authority Top heavy high managment wage packets,can't afford to invest because of overheads where as Germany/Japan invest in the business not managment
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)
And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm
That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.
Interesting read that, darn scary too :o
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)
And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm
That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.
Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here. :-/
You will note that at nop point have I personaly stated they are shite.
The key point I have been trying to make is that Bombardier are not the best fit supplier for the Thameslink type trains as its not what they are good at or even have a track record in (excuse the pun).
Diesel multiple units they can do, coaches they can also do but the unist required for this contract is an 'unknown' area to them and hence, I would not be selecting them either (sadly).
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"...Deutsche Bahn have instructed that the Bombardier bogies be used on their ICX fleet of high speed trains, due to them being reliable, compliant, and having more than a billion miles of operation to date on the clock. The Bombardier B5000 is currently used on East Midland's Trains Meridians, Virgin's Voyagers and Super Voyagers, and Southern's Turbostar's. These companies have commended the quality of the Bombardier engineering. The Bombardier bogies took 10 years to develop and construct and are now seen as the world’s leading bogie frame and has proven reliability as opposed to the undeveloped and untested Siemens bogie."
http://witteringwitney.blogspot.com/2011/08/might-bombardier-yet-bomb-siemens-off.html
;) ;)
And as I am sure you are aware, there is a hell of a lot more to a train than bogies. The complex part of this contract is the traction and power supplies. The bogies are also not built at Derby as they are swiss deisgned and manufactured (assembly only at Derby)
And do be very aware that the bogies have had major issues to:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/100220_east_langton.cfm
That one was a very near miss and thankfulfy it was a trailing bogie set that failed, if it had been a leading one then it would have casued more than the 1 mile of track and signal damage.
Mark, I'm sure you're right in many ways. It's just that I find it hard to dismiss Bomardier trains as "shite". I am sure they have many highly-qualified designers and engineers in their employ. There may be some technical shortcomings, as you say, but I don't understand how their trains can be given the blanket descriptions offered here. :-/
You will note that at nop point have I personaly stated they are shite.
The key point I have been trying to make is that Bombardier are not the best fit supplier for the Thameslink type trains as its not what they are good at or even have a track record in (excuse the pun).
Diesel multiple units they can do, coaches they can also do but the unist required for this contract is an 'unknown' area to them and hence, I would not be selecting them either (sadly).
True, it was T who stated that. ;)
I fully take on board your knowledge of rail matters, Mark. However, I'm not 100% sure the right decision was taken. ;)
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Eh? Wha? :D
I'm basing my views, on my experience. The Bombardier built 168's that I used for several years commuting to London.
Compared to the earlier BR designed & built units they were terrible, horrid vibration throughout the cabin, trim vibrating badly, not exactly quick either. Ride, well not exactly great, in fact in was not better than the BR 165's
BR units, although slower top end, where much quieter in the cabin, Chiltern added A/C and you could here no bits of trim about to fall off!
Secondly the new Underground units, there was nothing wrong with the 1973 Metro stock, was the most reliable on whole of London Underground!
They appear to create a massive amount of heat, unlike GEC Central Line / Jubilee line.
In contrast the Siemens units which run Heathrow Connect near me, feel sold to be in, nothing rattles, damn fast pulling away, aircon that really works. Unlike Bombardiers which is just appalling!
South West Trains into Waterloo from Sky are great too, again Leccy 3rd rail, fast, not that comfy but its designed for capacity. Airon that really does make you cold!! Even when train is packed. Ultra smooth too.
Moving on to Class 220 which I used a few times as Virgin Voyager services, I can't begin to describe how utter crap they are! Tiny cabin for main line, again really terrible vibration throughout the cabins, trim vibrating, small windows, weak aircon, although when pushed did have some go in them. But that could not make up for the very unpleasant passenger experience.
I don't know much about the technical sides of the contract, but from passenger view, I'm glad its Siemens, they make the better product :y
Why do I have an Omega, rather than Rover 75 ::)
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should add you can get smooth quite DMU's like the Class 180, used them a few times, built by Alstom. Although they had other issues. But smoothness and passenger comfort was not bad for a DMU!