Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: eddie on 06 December 2009, 14:35:43
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SWMBO has recently acquired a 'new' Ford Focus (1.8 TDi),a nice car compared to the Escort.
I recently had the Opportunity to take it for a drive and almost immediately nearly went for a trip through the windscreen.
The reason for this? The brakes, Being used to the Omega's brakes I was shocked at the sensitivity of the Ford brakes.
Reminded me of my old Citroen BX.
It got me to wondering how many times has an accident been caused by drivers being caught out by this difference in Brake set up?
Whilst many features of a car are standardised by legal means,i.e. light dimensions/positioning,emmissions etc etc. do you think that brakes should have some form of control as to the amount of pressure at the pedal required to provide a given amount of retardation?
I am a bit worried now in case SWMBO drives my car and runs into the back of some poor soul because 'the brakes didnt work' (as expected).
Any thoughts ??
eddie
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Yep - don't let SWMBO drive your car - solved!! :y
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I am a bit worried now in case SWMBO drives my car and runs into the back of some poor soul because 'the brakes didnt work' (as expected).
Any thoughts ??
eddie
If your old lady doesn't realise (by the end of the road at the very least) that her Focus brakes are outperforming your's (in the "effort required to stop" stakes), then maybe it's time for a refresher course (for her).
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Yep - don't let SWMBO drive your car - solved!!
She doesnt need to now ! ;)
eddie
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i hate driving mother tunnies other car, slightest feather on the brake pedal and it comes to a massive halt. Can archive much smmooother braking in the Omega. But stamp on those pedals and they don't half stop quick.
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when i drive the wifes rover 1.8 it realy drives well the brakes are very sensitive .lot better than the mig but then again the rover is a lighter car .i still love my miggy better 8-) :y
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I am a bit worried now in case SWMBO drives my car and runs into the back of some poor soul because 'the brakes didnt work' (as expected).
Any thoughts ??
eddie
If your old lady doesn't realise (by the end of the road at the very least) that her Focus brakes are outperforming your's (in the "effort required to stop" stakes), then maybe it's time for a refresher course (for her).
Not really the point KW. Can personally vouch for the differance in most of the ford range brakes and that of the omega. First time i hit the brakes in a mondeo i nearly gave myself wiplash. To use a Mark dtm phrase"typically over servoed ford brakes"
I did not agree with him at the time as i had just cone from mondeo to omega and was bemoaning omega brakes as being shite. (which they are with trade club pads) All depends on what your used to.
In terms of effect, its a bit like going from, four finger braking on a 125 with single disc and single piston caliper, then jumping on a litre bike applying the same pressure to a twin disc 6 piston per caliper set up then wondering why the brake light has hit you in the back of the head...( ! )
To the op, i would be extremely carefull swapping cars. Esp focus to omega.
I'm not saying that ford brakes are great, just very differant, and will need some practice to get the best out of them, esp coming from Omega brakes and more so with trade club pads fitted.
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..... and more so with trade club pads fitted.
Never had a problem with them. It does make me wonder though what I might be missing with 'real' vauxhal pads in though. ;D ;D
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..... and more so with trade club pads fitted.
Never had a problem with them. It does make me wonder though what I might be missing with 'real' vauxhal pads in though. ;D ;D
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with TC pads, the OEM 'Jurid' pads are far superior in terms of pedal 'feel' IMHO. I have recently fitted the Jurid fronts and whatever the OEM rears are (Possibly Jurid as well) with new discs all round and I wouldn't go back to TC pads now.
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Can some tell me the difference between trade club pads and real VX pads, sorry to sound thick guys :-? :-? :-/
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Can some tell me the difference between trade club pads and real VX pads, sorry to sound thick guys :-? :-? :-/
Hmm... I thought they were the same??? Just the price that changes isn't it? :-? :-?
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..... and more so with trade club pads fitted.
Never had a problem with them. It does make me wonder though what I might be missing with 'real' vauxhal pads in though. ;D ;D
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with TC pads, the OEM 'Jurid' pads are far superior in terms of pedal 'feel' IMHO. I have recently fitted the Jurid fronts and whatever the OEM rears are (Possibly Jurid as well) with new discs all round and I wouldn't go back to TC pads now.
....its all about what your used to. All things are relative. Mondeo to omega with tc pads, you'll be shocked at the differance, promise you.
Same as you'll notice the differance in oe and tc pads. Not shocking, but as said, never again with tc pads for me. Budget comes into it but worth the extra, defo imho, thanks to omegatoy who recommended them.
To say "never had a problem with them" as is often the case on here, means nothing. You wont know you have a problem in the first place unless you try summat else.
Bit like saying copper slip stops ........ no i think we've done that one. ;D They aint cheap Mr B. But they are defo an improvement. Promise. :-)
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Can some tell me the difference between trade club pads and real VX pads, sorry to sound thick guys :-? :-? :-/
Hmm... I thought they were the same??? Just the price that changes isn't it? :-? :-?
Trade club are made of leather and priced accordingly.
Oe, stamped durid?(jurid?) on the back, are what the omega left the factory with, made of a visibly differant compound no shamfer on the lead and trailing edges, work with less pressure applied to the pedal, with metal anti squeal shims riveted to each pad, but cost £70 odd with discount for a front axle set. Which is a shock.
Have recently found my local factors stock durid, i'll get round to ringing them for a price and availability one day. I know Kevin is not happy with his tc pads and is looking for an alternative afaik. If they can be sourced without going through vx, hopefully they will be cheaper???
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Can some tell me the difference between trade club pads and real VX pads, sorry to sound thick guys :-? :-? :-/
Hmm... I thought they were the same??? Just the price that changes isn't it? :-? :-?
Trade club are made of leather and priced accordingly.
Oe, stamped durid?(jurid?) on the back, are what the omega left the factory with, made of a visibly differant compound no shamfer on the lead and trailing edges, work with less pressure applied to the pedal, with metal anti squeal shims riveted to each pad, but cost £70 odd with discount for a front axle set. Which is a shock.
Have recently found my local factors stock durid, i'll get round to ringing them for a price and availability one day. I know Kevin is not happy with his tc pads and is looking for an alternative afaik. If they can be sourced without going through vx, hopefully they will be cheaper???
So it's unlikely that i still have these on mine then chris, i take it TC pads are what the stealers would fit if it went in for them changing.
Why wouldn't a stealers refit the same pads that a car left the factory with :-/
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Can some tell me the difference between trade club pads and real VX pads, sorry to sound thick guys :-? :-? :-/
Hmm... I thought they were the same??? Just the price that changes isn't it? :-? :-?
Trade club are made of leather and priced accordingly.
Oe, stamped durid?(jurid?) on the back, are what the omega left the factory with, made of a visibly differant compound no shamfer on the lead and trailing edges, work with less pressure applied to the pedal, with metal anti squeal shims riveted to each pad, but cost £70 odd with discount for a front axle set. Which is a shock.
Have recently found my local factors stock durid, i'll get round to ringing them for a price and availability one day. I know Kevin is not happy with his tc pads and is looking for an alternative afaik. If they can be sourced without going through vx, hopefully they will be cheaper???
So it's unlikely that i still have these on mine then chris, i take it TC pads are what the stealers would fit if it went in for them changing.
Why wouldn't a stealers refit the same pads that a car left the factory with :-/
No idea tbh, price? never used a dealer for work. Would like to think a dealer would give you the option. Oe are easily spotted through the wheel spokes by the rivets holding the shims to pad body, and by using the brakes of course.
Most police spec mv6 i've seen have them. Unless the owner has had it a while and fitted tc pads.
Thing is, if you fit the trade club disc and pad front axle set, which is the cheapest way to buy discs i beleive, you get tc pads in the set. Which i find odd because ( some assumptions on my part from here on) there was talk that tc pads exist to be used with part worn discs. Ie, fit oe with new discs then once oe ware out, then fit tc due to the chanfer on the leading and trailing edge to cope with the groved part worn discs, assuming the normal 2 pads to one disc ware rate....? If thats true, and i'm by no means sure that it is true, why are tc pads sold with new discs in the tc disc pad set ?(probably because its not true ;D)
Having driven with oe pads i'm suprised tc exist at all tbh. But then tc pads are what? £14 a front axle set is it? Or something like....
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Ive a set of the Jurid's I got for £9 during the dealers clear out....really must fit them :D
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Brake feel and brake effectiveness are 2 very different things!
Fords (as per many front wheel drive cars) have a one shot servo where the assist is applied by a digital valve....press the pedal and you get max assist.
The Omega (as per many other large rear wheel drives) have a progressive servo with a more analogue setup....stamp on the brake and you will get full assist...press progressively and you get progressive braking.
You will stop an Omega in a VERY short distance, shorter than that of many cars (including jags as sadly I proved once!).
And the trade club pads are not nearly as bad as what Chris is saying, they are good quality and work very well. And that is from somebody who has fitted christ knows how many sets of differing pads to these cars including red stuff, green stuff, mintex etc.
My mum bus has pretty over assisted brakes and its easy enough to jump between the 2 cars.
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Brake feel and brake effectiveness are 2 very different things!
Fords (as per many front wheel drive cars) have a one shot servo where the assist is applied by a digital valve....press the pedal and you get max assist.
The Omega (as per many other large rear wheel drives) have a progressive servo with a more analogue setup....stamp on the brake and you will get full assist...press progressively and you get progressive braking.
You will stop an Omega in a VERY short distance, shorter than that of many cars (including jags as sadly I proved once!).
And the trade club pads are not nearly as bad as what Chris is saying, they are good quality and work very well. And that is from somebody who has fitted christ knows how many sets of differing pads to these cars including red stuff, green stuff, mintex etc.
My mum bus has pretty over assisted brakes and its easy enough to jump between the 2 cars.
I still have the tc pads in the garage. Have said before, more than happy to do a back to back test.
Tc pads will stop the car, obviously. And i suspect if you stamp on the pedal with max effect you'll not notice much differance. However all the other 999 times you use the brakes in a normal fashion the differance is very clear.
And again, if you've never used oe pads, then you'll be non the wiser, but considering their price perhaps wouldn't blame you. Does seem ott.
Not often that i disagree with a Mark dtm on such things.
Your Mum bus is not a ford though.....? Not driven the s max myself, did you try it, out of interest?
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Well talking about brakes.
I remember when I gave my old A6 the first time to mi father. The car was an auto and he never driven an auto before. So the first time he needed to brake he did it with his left leg as firmly as he was pressing the clutch ;D
Poor dad hit himself on the steering wheel (luckily not hard)
And as for omegas brakes. They are great, and give you a nice control over breking.
Stopping power is very good, if people have problems with it repplace the discs and pads with some well known manufacturer.
Brakes ARE NOT something you want to save money on
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Call my cynical but I wonder if Ford brake servos are set up to give the "right feel" when the pads are down to the metal? ;)
Kevin
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would save a few quid. ;D
But certainly, once used to my mondeo, the brakes where excellent. Could really feel and squeeze you way into corners on the brakes.
Shame the car was shagged out by 80k.
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Brake feel and brake effectiveness are 2 very different things!
Yes I agree, that's why I was selective in the words i used!
The brake pedal feel (which to me is the translation between what the pedal feel and the actual brake action is) is improved, the Jurid pads are obviously a different compound giving a more solid pedal feel.
As to wether the TC pads are as efficient I wouldn't like to say, yes they certainly do the job (and produce a lot more brake dust on the wheels at the same time) but I just feel that the slightly spongy pedal feel (Which wasn't down to age of the brake fluid or bleeding I might add) inspires less confidence in their abilities.
Ultimately it will always come down to cost and these pads are expensive compared to the TC versions. While the fronts are still available the rears are as rare as hens teeth now. We all know that rears are only about 25% of the argument but in my opinion (which is probably worth a big fat 0) on a rear wheel drive car they do play a more significant part than on a front wheel drive.
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that reminds me, it was partly due to fitting oe on the rear that persuaded me to dump the new tc pads on the front in favour of oe all round.
Parts man supplied the tc front disc pad set. But being vented discs on the rear of my car they supplied oe to go with them.
So with tc pads and new discs on the front and oe pads and new disks on the rear i set off to enjoy my brand new brakes and the better performance i was expecting, considering my old pads and discs where totally cabbaged, they must be better right?
Only the rear showed a marked improvement, the rear seemed to squat, like pulling the hand brake when moving, and no great response from the front. So fitted oe on the front as well and bingo. Balanced braking front to back, if you see what i mean, better bite, well happy. Could feel the differance first press of the pedal reversing out of the drive. Didnt notice any bedding in needed either, although i did go steady on them for the first 200 miles.
Really do not understand the approach to tc pads on here, bar price of course which is understandable.
The thought also occurs, if the servo is designed to be progressive, why take away the pads which presumably where designed to work with it? Lets face it, given you get what you pay for in life, how can £14 a set pads match a £70 set for performance. (They are actually £100 retail iirc)
The Boy takes the view that oe wont last any longer than tc with his driving style on his personal test track iirc. Which is a very valid point, if oe over heat at the same rate tc do that would make it a very expensive game. But do they.....?
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Didnt notice any bedding in needed either .....
You had new pads on virtually new discs ;) ;)
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Didnt notice any bedding in needed either .....
You had new pads on virtually new discs ;) ;)
True. Tc took a couple of stabs to work even after washing the discs down with brake cleaner. Thought i would use tc to wipe off the excess copper slip first just to make sure oe didnt squeal :P
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...... Thought i would use tc to wipe off the excess copper slip first just to make sure oe didnt squeal :P
That'd work! ::) ;)
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Not really the point KW.
I think the point the OP was trying to make was that the perceived effectiveness of the Focus brakes are far superior to that of the MIG, and hence anyone used to the MIG might inadvertently cause an accident when using the same pressure applied to the footbrake.
My point was that if you take the controls of a vehicle you are unfamiliar with, then it is surely natural that you exercise a little bit of caution until such time that you are familiar with how the vehicle behaves?
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....am i on a Bus or something? ;D
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Perhaps it's because I fitted QH Pads all around at the last change, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the Omega Brakes ::) ::) ::)
Must confess... I have always jumped from vehicle to vehicle, sometimes driving as many as 20 odd vehicles in a day, and have never had an issue. First opportunity, usually just after pulling away, a quick brake test and then you know what to expect :y :y
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Perhaps it's because I fitted QH Pads all around at the last change, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the Omega Brakes ::) ::) ::)
Must confess... I have always jumped from vehicle to vehicle, sometimes driving as many as 20 odd vehicles in a day, and have never had an issue. First opportunity, usually just after pulling away, a quick brake test and then you know what to expect :y :y
yup........ :y
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Like the flintstones... dragging your feet along the ground? :D
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Like the flintstones... dragging your feet along the ground? :D
You must have seen my old Range Rover before I did the welding :D :D :D
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Like the flintstones... dragging your feet along the ground? :D
Preferred the Ant Hill Mob....
Make wid da feet, yoose guys..... ;D ;D