Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Shackeng on 04 February 2010, 09:22:55
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An item in yesterday's paper reported a 911 call from a passenger in a 2009 Lexus ES350 to the effect that....' the accelerator's stuck, ....there's no brakes.......we're approaching an intersection' etc. The vehicle subsequently crashed, killing the occupants.
Not knowing the type of car, I find it hard to understand that someone had time to make a phone call, and yet the driver - an off-duty Highway patrol officer - was unable to either switch off, apply the parking brake, or select neutral, during that time.
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Its an interesting one.
I cant say I know the answer but, I wonder if the vehicle in question had an auto handbrake plus a start/stop button.....or even if it had an ignition key....
Maybe all these new conveniences are a step to far.
I have never been a fan of auto handbrakes, the fact you have a mechanical lever, and a cable to the rear is a little more comforting under such an emergancy scenario.
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Its an interesting one.
Indeed. I have had a stuck throttle and it's no drama if you have manual control, and some common sense.
Dip the clutch, off with the ignition and coast to somewhere safe to stop.
I suspect either the manual control, or the common sense, was missing.
I must admit, a manual switch that kills the ignition and a physical linkage to get the gearbox into neutral are things I'd be loathed to be without, and I can't see the point of auto handbrakes at all.
Kevin
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Its an interesting one.
I cant say I know the answer but, I wonder if the vehicle in question had an auto handbrake plus a start/stop button.....or even if it had an ignition key....
Maybe all these new conveniences are a step to far.
I have never been a fan of auto handbrakes, the fact you have a mechanical lever, and a cable to the rear is a little more comforting under such an emergancy scenario.
Agreed, all possibilties to explore, but it should be possible to select neutral.
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I guess this (http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2009/09/01/runaway-lexus-kills-4_200909012035.html) is the incident in question.
Having a CHP officer with all his family on board makes it seem he would have tried all the obvious, although he may not have been familiar with the vehicle.
Ironic that he should hit an Explorer which has a similar reputation. :(
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I guess this (http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2009/09/01/runaway-lexus-kills-4_200909012035.html) is the incident in question.
Having a CHP officer with all his family on board makes it seem he would have tried all the obvious, although he may not have been familiar with the vehicle.
Ironic that he should hit an Explorer which has a similar reputation. :(
That's the one. I wonder what happened to the fail safe?
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not sure they where killed where they? from what i saw on the news there was a pic or a video of a surviver standing by the wreckage.
Certainly was a crash non the less, i put it down to panic, i've always encouraged the Mrs to play with the car a bit in poor conditions, in the rain and esp. snow i brake test regularly to check how much grip there is or isnt before i get to the junction. She hated it at first and used think we where going to die just because the car skided or the abs engaged. Total over reaction and beyond logical thought. Now though and esp in the last week of the snow she is far more confident and understands more of the cars performance level, so no more panic to a point.
I remember a similar issue with cruise cotrol on some american suv, and the accounts given where vastly differant according to driver experience. ie the little old laidy simply piled into the back of the next car, where as the guy who owned a sports car with motor sport experience simply pulled the key out. Panic, imo.
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I guess this (http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2009/09/01/runaway-lexus-kills-4_200909012035.html) is the incident in question.
Having a CHP officer with all his family on board makes it seem he would have tried all the obvious, although he may not have been familiar with the vehicle.
Ironic that he should hit an Explorer which has a similar reputation. :(
ah certaily where killed. Different story maybe.
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although the artical above mentions some double redundent fail safe feature, what ever that is?
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although the artical above mentions some double redundent fail safe feature, what ever that is?
If it's anything like most drive-by-wire systems, it means that the throttle pedal position sensor and the throttle plate position sensor both have two potentiometers with different characteristics so that the two voltages reported to the ECU for any given throttle position are different.
The ECU can then compare the two and make sure that they both correspond to the same position. If not, it goes into limp-home. The idea being that failure of a single pot, wire, supply, etc. will be detectable by the ECU and not result in a roller-coaster ride.
Of course, if the problem is mechanical and the pedal physically gets stuck to the floor it doesn't help. :-/
Kevin
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So that's progress ::) :-?
I used to be an Undertaker in my twenties & we used to use stretch Granadas. We had one with a sticky pedal & if you jammed it hard down to the floor it would stick :o
I dropped the Mourners off at their home in Smalley & i pulled away from the side of the road only for a car to come flying around the corner a second later, i booted it & the pedal stuck. There was i in this dirty great Limo with a 2.8 V6 flying up the road trying to lift the pedal with my shoe ;D ;D ;D ;D
I managed it, but i often wonder what the Mourners thought after they'd had a nice sedate drive from the Crem ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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On the Prius there is a transmission brake - electrically operated via a button on the facia, engaging this at rest automatically places the transmission into neutral, there is also a mechanically operated foot parking brake.
There is no ignition switch - simply a slot where the transponder is inserted. The systems are energised by means of a start/stop button.
The transponder is locked into position whenever the car is in motion – whether this lock is sufficient to prevent forcible extraction when in motion, and what effect that would have on the vehicle I don’t know, as I wasn’t brave enough to try on my trip to the shops just now.
The transmission can be shifted into neutral when the car is in motion.
The braking, steering, transmission and throttle systems are all electronically controlled or assisted so if there is an electrical fault, I could foresee problems in bringing the car to a safe stop.
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On the Prius there is a transmission brake - electrically operated via a button on the facia, engaging this at rest automatically places the transmission into neutral, there is also a mechanically operated foot parking brake.
There is no ignition switch - simply a slot where the transponder is inserted. The systems are energised by means of a start/stop button.
The transponder is locked into position whenever the car is in motion – whether this lock is sufficient to prevent forcible extraction when in motion, and what effect that would have on the vehicle I don’t know, as I wasn’t brave enough to try on my trip to the shops just now.
The transmission can be shifted into neutral when the car is in motion.
The braking, steering, transmission and throttle systems are all electronically controlled or assisted so if there is an electrical fault, I could foresee problems in bringing the car to a safe stop.
That's why I am puzzled, in my experience American marketed cars invariably have a foot operated parking brake, and facility to shift into neutral. No doubt the authorities over there are also scratching their heads over this one.
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The question is, are these foot operated brakes (remembering that this is not an American car) now truely mechanicaly connected to the brakes or does it go via some logic function that thinks....thats much to fast and I am not applying the brake pedal.
If so, then there could be a failure in the system design.
Of course, the brakes may have been so hot through trying to stop it that they were no longer working.
Why could they not put it into neutral....no idea on that one.
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On the Prius there is a transmission brake - electrically operated via a button on the facia, engaging this at rest automatically places the transmission into neutral, there is also a mechanically operated foot parking brake.
There is no ignition switch - simply a slot where the transponder is inserted. The systems are energised by means of a start/stop button.
The transponder is locked into position whenever the car is in motion – whether this lock is sufficient to prevent forcible extraction when in motion, and what effect that would have on the vehicle I don’t know, as I wasn’t brave enough to try on my trip to the shops just now.
The transmission can be shifted into neutral when the car is in motion.
The braking, steering, transmission and throttle systems are all electronically controlled or assisted so if there is an electrical fault, I could foresee problems in bringing the car to a safe stop.
That's why I am puzzled, in my experience American marketed cars invariably have a foot operated parking brake, and facility to shift into neutral. No doubt the authorities over there are also scratching their heads over this one.
It's a strange one no doubt.
I'm not sure if the parking brake would be person** enough to bring the car to a halt from speed all the same.
I would have thought however that the main braking system on the car would have functioned albeit without assistance - perhaps in this case the driver didn't have the time or space to manoeuvre his vehicle away from danger.
Possibly it was a simply a case of panic in rapidly unfolding circumstances.
In any case it's a most unfortunate occurrence for the occupants of the vehicle and their families.
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In deference to our beloved Sister in Christ, Harriet Harman -
MP for Camberwell and Peckham, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party
Leader of the House of Commons, and Minister for Women and Equality - and her proposed Equalities Bill.
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The question is, are these foot operated brakes (remembering that this is not an American car) now truely mechanicaly connected to the brakes or does it go via some logic function that thinks....thats much to fast and I am not applying the brake pedal.
If so, then there could be a failure in the system design.
Of course, the brakes may have been so hot through trying to stop it that they were no longer working.
Why could they not put it into neutral....no idea on that one.
As far as I can see it is mechanically connected to the front braking system, the car will drive still off with the parking brake applied however - as I have found out. :-[ :-[ ::)
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On the Prius there is a transmission brake - electrically operated via a button on the facia, engaging this at rest automatically places the transmission into neutral, there is also a mechanically operated foot parking brake.
There is no ignition switch - simply a slot where the transponder is inserted. The systems are energised by means of a start/stop button.
The transponder is locked into position whenever the car is in motion – whether this lock is sufficient to prevent forcible extraction when in motion, and what effect that would have on the vehicle I don’t know, as I wasn’t brave enough to try on my trip to the shops just now.
The transmission can be shifted into neutral when the car is in motion.
The braking, steering, transmission and throttle systems are all electronically controlled or assisted so if there is an electrical fault, I could foresee problems in bringing the car to a safe stop.
That's why I am puzzled, in my experience American marketed cars invariably have a foot operated parking brake, and facility to shift into neutral. No doubt the authorities over there are also scratching their heads over this one.
It's a strange one no doubt.
I'm not sure if the parking brake would be person** enough to bring the car to a halt from speed all the same.
I would have thought however that the main braking system on the car would have functioned albeit without assistance - perhaps in this case the driver didn't have the time or space to manoeuvre his vehicle away from danger.
Possibly it was a simply a case of panic in rapidly unfolding circumstances.
In any case it's a most unfortunate occurrence for the occupants of the vehicle and their family’s.
**
In deference to our beloved Sister in Christ, Harriet Harman -
MP for Camberwell and Peckham, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party
Leader of the House of Commons, and Minister for Women and Equality - and her proposed Equalities Bill.
Yet a passenger had time to call 911 :-?
A definite puzzler.
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I'm not sure if the parking brake would be person** enough to bring the car to a halt from speed all the same.
It's an interesting experiment to try. In my experience of finding interesting ways to bed brake pads in ::) what one would probably regard as quite heavy braking will limit a powerful car at a constant speed in the higher gears.
When it comes to actually stopping it in a useful distance from the worst case scenario where it's accelerated to 80/90 MPH before you realise something's not right. Hmm. :-/ What's clear to me is:
1) You would have to stand on the pedal
2) You would build up a lot more heat in the brakes than during a normal emergency stop, so you would probably get one shot at it before the brakes faded. If you braked half-heartedly, lifted off and let it accelerate again or anything like that, you'd probably find the brakes too hot to give you a second chance.
3) What happens as you slow and the gearbox, if auto, starts changing down? It would probably overcome the brakes in a low gear, especially if they're hot.
A mate of mine had a Pug 406 diesel which started burning its' own engine oil due to turbo seal failure on the motorway and he said he very nearly left himself with no brakes trying to stop it before he dipped the clutch and let it rev itself to oblivion.
All immaterial if you take the gearbox out of gear, of course. Makes me wonder if gear selection was also electronic and nanny ECU thought "ooh! you don't want to take it out of "D" at this speed!".
I suspect it was more the case that the driver, who would clearly have been at 110% stress level, probably didn't go through a methodical process of trying the ignition, realising the stupid transponder and "Start/Stop" button was no help, then shifting focus to getting the transmission into neutral, then on braking it to a stop, and so on. He probably spent his last seconds hitting the button to no effect. Lack of familiarity with the vehicle may have been an issue, of course.
Makes one wonder if it wouldn't be better to have standard, mechanical controls for the ignition switch and gear selector on all cars. :-/
In addition, if the car had left him several routes to shut it down (ignition switch, clutch, gear selector, etc.) maybe he'd have hit upon one of them in time. :(
Kevin
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Another report on t'internet says that a previous user of the same loan car had a similar problem where he stopped it on the brakes. He reckoned he managed to prize the throttle pedal back up and so saved the day. He also reported it to the receptionist who wasn't very amenable by his account.
Investigating plod said brakes were damaged (presumably before impact) on the crashed car.
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I'm not sure if the parking brake would be person** enough to bring the car to a halt from speed all the same.
It's an interesting experiment to try. In my experience of finding interesting ways to bed brake pads in ::) what one would probably regard as quite heavy braking will limit a powerful car at a constant speed in the higher gears.
When it comes to actually stopping it in a useful distance from the worst case scenario where it's accelerated to 80/90 MPH before you realise something's not right. Hmm. :-/ What's clear to me is:
1) You would have to stand on the pedal
2) You would build up a lot more heat in the brakes than during a normal emergency stop, so you would probably get one shot at it before the brakes faded. If you braked half-heartedly, lifted off and let it accelerate again or anything like that, you'd probably find the brakes too hot to give you a second chance.
3) What happens as you slow and the gearbox, if auto, starts changing down? It would probably overcome the brakes in a low gear, especially if they're hot.
A mate of mine had a Pug 406 diesel which started burning its' own engine oil due to turbo seal failure on the motorway and he said he very nearly left himself with no brakes trying to stop it before he dipped the clutch and let it rev itself to oblivion.
All immaterial if you take the gearbox out of gear, of course. Makes me wonder if gear selection was also electronic and nanny ECU thought "ooh! you don't want to take it out of "D" at this speed!".
I suspect it was more the case that the driver, who would clearly have been at 110% stress level, probably didn't go through a methodical process of trying the ignition, realising the stupid transponder and "Start/Stop" button was no help, then shifting focus to getting the transmission into neutral, then on braking it to a stop, and so on. He probably spent his last seconds hitting the button to no effect. Lack of familiarity with the vehicle may have been an issue, of course.
Makes one wonder if it wouldn't be better to have standard, mechanical controls for the ignition switch and gear selector on all cars. :-/
In addition, if the car had left him several routes to shut it down (ignition switch, clutch, gear selector, etc.) maybe he'd have hit upon one of them in time. :(
Kevin
I think that's a fair stab at the series of events K. Electronic technology is fine up to a point as this incident has shown.
The transmission is electonically controlled CVT so how that would respond to being put into neutral at speed is anyone's guess.
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I'm not sure if the parking brake would be person** enough to bring the car to a halt from speed all the same.
It's an interesting experiment to try. In my experience of finding interesting ways to bed brake pads in ::) what one would probably regard as quite heavy braking will limit a powerful car at a constant speed in the higher gears.
When it comes to actually stopping it in a useful distance from the worst case scenario where it's accelerated to 80/90 MPH before you realise something's not right. Hmm. :-/ What's clear to me is:
1) You would have to stand on the pedal
2) You would build up a lot more heat in the brakes than during a normal emergency stop, so you would probably get one shot at it before the brakes faded. If you braked half-heartedly, lifted off and let it accelerate again or anything like that, you'd probably find the brakes too hot to give you a second chance.
3) What happens as you slow and the gearbox, if auto, starts changing down? It would probably overcome the brakes in a low gear, especially if they're hot.
A mate of mine had a Pug 406 diesel which started burning its' own engine oil due to turbo seal failure on the motorway and he said he very nearly left himself with no brakes trying to stop it before he dipped the clutch and let it rev itself to oblivion.
All immaterial if you take the gearbox out of gear, of course. Makes me wonder if gear selection was also electronic and nanny ECU thought "ooh! you don't want to take it out of "D" at this speed!".
I suspect it was more the case that the driver, who would clearly have been at 110% stress level, probably didn't go through a methodical process of trying the ignition, realising the stupid transponder and "Start/Stop" button was no help, then shifting focus to getting the transmission into neutral, then on braking it to a stop, and so on. He probably spent his last seconds hitting the button to no effect. Lack of familiarity with the vehicle may have been an issue, of course.
Makes one wonder if it wouldn't be better to have standard, mechanical controls for the ignition switch and gear selector on all cars. :-/
In addition, if the car had left him several routes to shut it down (ignition switch, clutch, gear selector, etc.) maybe he'd have hit upon one of them in time. :(
Kevin
I think that's a fair stab at the series of events K. Electronic technology is fine up to a point as this incident has shown.
The transmission is electonically controlled CVT so how that would respond to being put into neutral at speed is anyone's guess.
I'll try it at low speed on SWWLTBO's Honda Jazz. :y
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Our fly-by-wire cars effectively shut the throttle off if you brake while pressing the accelerator, at least my diseasal Astra TD does as did her 1600 Astra G :-/
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I'll try it at low speed on SWWLTBO's Honda Jazz. :y
And if it does....then try it with your foot planted to the floor on the throttle.
I can just imagine a subroutine which says If Throttle is not equal to WOT gearselect = neutral Else gearselect = Drive
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The car was reportedly loaned from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon on Friday after Saylor dropped his car off for service
Sounds like the driver was a "stranger" to the various controls ... :(
It's all very well thinking about various "emergency" procedures .. but if you don't know EXACTLY how the car works .. do you have any options ???
:(
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I'll try it at low speed on SWWLTBO's Honda Jazz. :y
And if it does....then try it with your foot planted to the floor on the throttle.
I can just imagine a subroutine which says If Throttle is not equal to WOT gearselect = neutral Else gearselect = Drive
Not sure I want to go that far, although I could try it as immediate consecutive actions!