Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: mudflap on 12 April 2010, 09:12:01
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Every monday morning the AA / RAC, the local garage or knowledgeable OOF member is called out by a frustrated DIYer who had got him/herself into a mess trying to do weekend jobs on their car - the wrong tool or lack of a heating torch has broken something or stripped a thread, or a trip to the local hospital to treat damaged fingers or exposure :-/
The question is, it worth doing your own repairs these days? Personally i used to spend many happy hours pulling apart engines in the 70's, it was easy then and i did all my own jobs including sub frame and small engine servicing jobs, all you needed was a set of AF box spanners, a pair of molegrips and a feeler gauge but things are impossibly complicated these days, special pullers, gauges and a torque wrench is needed for almost everything - even the ruddy sump plug :-?
At 50 pounds an hour plus VAT for me it is worth getting most jobs done conveniently and cleanly in the comfort of my armchair - guaranteed work, last week i got everything done together and saved quite a bit on hourly rates, though apart from fitting new wiper blades and bulbs, also without proper facilities i leave the big jobs to the pros 8-)
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Every monday morning the AA / RAC, the local garage or knowledgeable OOF member is called out by a frustrated DIYer who had got him/herself into a mess trying to do weekend jobs on their car - the wrong tool or lack of a heating torch has broken something or stripped a thread, or a trip to the local hospital to treat damaged fingers or exposure :-/
The question is, it worth doing your own repairs these days? Personally i used to spend many happy hours pulling apart engines in the 70's, it was easy then and i did all my own jobs including sub frame and small engine servicing jobs, all you needed was a set of AF box spanners, a pair of molegrips and a feeler gauge but things are impossibly complicated these days, a torque wrench is needed for almost everything - even the ruddy sump plug fgs :-?
At 50 pounds an hour plus VAT for me it is worth getting most jobs done conveniently and cleanly in the comfort of my armchair - guaranteed work, last week i got everything done together and saved quite a bit on horly rates, though apart from fitting new wiper blades and bulbs i leave the big jobs to the pros 8-)
Yes!
1) Satisfaction of doing the job
2) You know its been done right
3) Its always done better
My 2.2 cam cover gasket for instance, took me best part of a 1/2 day to do it, was making a guide at the time, but was taking my time. Garage would bash though that in quick time as possible, taking all kinds of short cuts.
I took my time and did it right, result? 2 years and 40k later, not a sign of any leak.
My car feels and drives better on 138k DIY serviced, than it did at 84k and garage serviced
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not to mention financial savings, oil change costs me £10!
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You are an exception mr. Tunnie 8-)
:y
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You are an exception mr. Tunnie 8-)
:y
When i first joined the forum, i had to have help doing an oil change!
Previous cars i never even lifted the bonnet in 20k except for windscreen washer fluid, learned everything through here!
Unlike a garage you can post up a noise, picture, video, description of an issue, and instead of a mechanic sucking air through his teeth and saying, ohh that sounds expensive.
You get people telling you exactly what the problem is, and exactly how to fix it for the best price!
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OOF is a great forum for fault diagnosis, one can approach their trusted garage of choice, and showing some knowledge of the "problem" could be less likely to be hoodwinked ;)
...and my "omegaowners.com" decal proudly displayed in the rear window 8-)
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OOF is a great forum for fault diagnosis, one can approach their trusted garage of choice, and showing some knowledge of the "problem" could be less likely to be hoodwinked ;)
...and my "omegaowners.com" decal proudly displayed in the rear window 8-)
Well i have a nice big garage to work on with the cars, if weather turns, and fairly well tooled up now, it would be different if i just had on-street parking.
4 pots are nice and easy to work on, but looking at more modern engines, looks even harder to do DIY :(
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It has to be personal preference in my view. There are those who get a buzz out of fixing it themselves, and there's no question that you can trust yourself as to how well the job's been done.
Manufacturers have for some years now tried to build-in dependence on recognised repairers (take Tech2 for instance) and the governments are likely to support that because it theoretically makes cars safer on the road and preserves a business model that suits officialdom.
As for tools - I could narrow your AF spanners down to 1/2" and 9/16" provided a mole-wrench and hammer were available! I have rebuilt engines (successfully ;D) without a torque wrench but that was before aluminium was so prolific; having said that, there are still locations where you can't get such an unwieldy tool and you have to guess.
One strong view I have is that if you do it yourself, you can choose what you fix and when (mostly) and you can throw money at safety items like brakes and stinge on less critical bits. You also get to see problems that are developing, while you work and can plan those into future forages under the car. These may well get forgotten, or dealt with unnecessarily soon if relying on garage servicing.
If I found myself with too much surplus income I might well change my tune as I find it harder to swing a hammer above my head while lying on my back getting showered in rust-flakes and grime!
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DIY/other owners from here is the only way to go IMO. Especially if you are a little capable :y
Garage rates would mean that in a lot of cases you'd be spending more than the car is worth for your annual maintenance :o :o
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There is a certain pleasure to be gained from the "I did that, and it's a good job" moment, and although a lot of us do repairs out of money reasons not all of us have the skills or inclination to touch oil and spanners, so have to resort to "main stealers" for our maintenance needs. Personally, a whole day of fettling and cleaning puts a grin on my face, and just makes me respect my car a bit more!
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There's only one way to ensure a job is done properly, IMHO.
Besides, modern cars require much less maintenance than 1970's models and don't require anything more than a Halfords tool kit for 99% of jobs.
Kevin
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I always hated the bills, and not knowing exactly what was done.
I am another, couldnt do an oil change till I joined oof.
The help I have had from guides on here, and especially Mark DTM's expert tuition has given me the knowledge, and confidence to tackle an awful lot myself.
Spent about £200 on tools etc to get me started, that obviously get added to, but saved that many times over now. been a good hobby and learnt some useful skills.
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I would say its down to choice. Some people don't want to play cars, some physically can't.
Personally, I quite like tinkering with odd jobs. I play with IT as a day job, so often lack the knowledge and/or confidence to do certain jobs - the recent LPG conversion being a great example - but with the advice, and occasionally physical help, from trusted friends I have made on this site, I personally would let a garage anywhere near my car if I could help it.
Last time a garage did any work on my car, when I had a bit of a bump on the bike and could even do a simple service on the car, I trusted the simple jobs (simple service, alignment and handbrake service) to the dealer in Milton Keynes, who tried to get £300 from me, and left the car in a dangerous state. Oh, and didn't even bother to change the oil filter.
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Yes, always! :y :y
But I have been doing it for 40 years now! Saved thousands of pounds and had some great satisfying moments (with my ex as well!!) :-* :-* 8-) 8-)
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(with my ex, as well.........)
think we'll draw a veil over that, Lizzie, I'm too young to understand!!
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You are an exception mr. Tunnie 8-)
:y
When i first joined the forum, i had to have help doing an oil change!
Previous cars i never even lifted the bonnet in 20k except for windscreen washer fluid, learned everything through here!
Unlike a garage you can post up a noise, picture, video, description of an issue, and instead of a mechanic sucking air through his teeth and saying, ohh that sounds expensive.
You get people telling you exactly what the problem is, and exactly how to fix it for the best price!
:y
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(with my ex, as well.........)
think we'll draw a veil over that, Lizzie, I'm too young to understand!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 8-) 8-) ;) ;)
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Having just serviced the Astra, and discovering what had not been done, and what had been overtightened, I'll carry on doing basic servicing myself.
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Spent 40' odd years doing what I could for myself and the bits I couldn't do, I paid to have done. The personal centre of gravity has long since gone 'south which limits the time I can spend bending over a hot engine. Even though I may have my bus pass I still have the same insatiable appetite to know how things work that I had when I started out. My latest educational quest is to understand engine management systems. Yes, I do indeed envy those who understand more than me. I just have this in built 'need to understand and I hope I still have that thirst for knowledge in twenty more years.
Yes I could pay, but how do I learn doing that? I'd give my right arm still, :) for an invitation to 'look over someone's' shoulder whilst they do a job if I thought I could learn. Even bought the V6 cambelt video from the OOF shop recently. I drive a 4 potter but now I know how to do a V6. Perhaps that makes me sad, but i'm still learning and it feels good!
VC
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Tunnie's hit the nail on the head really, with taking your time and not taking shortcuts.
Quite a few jobs like breather cleaning, or diagnosing electrical faults for example, are simply not economically viable to get a garage to do for you. If they did do a thorough job, you wouldn't want to pay the amount they'd want to charge, if they don't do a thorough job, the problem(s) will return or maybe not even have been solved.
I'm very slow at all car jobs, but I'd far rather spend time with my head under the bonnet than watching TV.
The only jobs I will ask a garage (or others on here) to help me with are ones I don't have the tools for, or the experience of. Happily, over time, this is getting to be fewer and fewer things.
:y :)
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when it comes to big jobs i take it to the garage but small jobs i do my self nothing more satisfing than swearing and taking a big hammer to it only to hit yourself on the knuckles and swearing some more. Garages rip you off i should know worked in one for 3 years plenty of scams to be had on unsuspecting old ladys £300 job for 10p fuse not right.
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For some people, yes... others, no.
Im lucky in the sense i have a garage full of tools, and in some cases, i even have tools that my mates garage dont have ;D
I do everything myself except MOT's (they go to a mate and done at employee price). I've been brought up to do everything myself, ranging from cars to fitting kitchens, bathrooms and windows. I grudge paying someone for something i can do myself ;D granted i cant always be bothered to do them, but i save a bundle :y
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Spent 40' odd years doing what I could for myself and the bits I couldn't do, I paid to have done. The personal centre of gravity has long since gone 'south which limits the time I can spend bending over a hot engine. Even though I may have my bus pass I still have the same insatiable appetite to know how things work that I had when I started out. My latest educational quest is to understand engine management systems. Yes, I do indeed envy those who understand more than me. I just have this in built 'need to understand and I hope I still have that thirst for knowledge in twenty more years.
Yes I could pay, but how do I learn doing that? I'd give my right arm still, :) for an invitation to 'look over someone's' shoulder whilst they do a job if I thought I could learn. Even bought the V6 cambelt video from the OOF shop recently. I drive a 4 potter but now I know how to do a V6. Perhaps that makes me sad, but i'm still learning and it feels good!
VC
Well said Vic, my sentiments exactly :y
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The only time i take my car to the garage is if i don't have the equipment for the job, if the equipment isn't expensive i'll buy it with the money i would have spent on labour.
As Tunnie says, take your time & alot can be achieved.
I saved Liz £142.50 by removing her exhaust & welding it, it'll now last until she sells the car.
It took me a couple of hours to do the job, but well worth it :)
I'll keep on doing my own repairs for as long as i can.
I like to change my oil very regular & it would cost me dear at a garage :(
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I simply don't trust garages... I worked in one ::) ::)
Having said that, my neighbour is a right PITA, which makes me want to do more!
See here for details (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1271103440)
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I can do some of servicing in friends shop when there is a lift and the necessary tools.. and somebody handy when there is extra that I dont know where it comes from :D ;D
but seriously on messy jobs like heater matrix change or jobs that needs guarantee after, like cambelt change (which will cost a fortune in cases of disaster) or jobs that require tech 2 and some tests I prefer the opel/vx service.. the fact is even a whole day job in service costs 100 £ and thats nothing compared to parts prices >:(
but if labor costs were 50-75 £/ hr I would deffo be a mechanic ;D
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but if labor costs were 50-75 £/ hr I would deffo be a mechanic ;D
average garage in my area charges £40-60/hour... their average wage for their mechanics is probably between £7-14/hour :y
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Finding a reliably honest reasonably priced garage can be difficult, no wonder people do their own repairs and good luck to them, but bad news travels fast and surely any garage relies on good a reputation to stay in business?
My chosen establishment is efficient, clean and tidy, has their own web site, answers email queries straight away and tells you almost exactly what you will pay before they start work. 50 pounds an hour +vat is average rate, they did a lovely job on my service, so hopefully will continue to do my jobs - MOT next....
http://www.westharrowgarage.com/aboutus.php
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I think it depends entirely on individual knowledge, confidence and circumstances. As others have said, during the 60's and 70's car maintenance was relatively easy as the engines and mechanics of the cars were nowhere near as complex as todays cars and you didn't need to plug in a computer to find out what was wrong. Special tools are needed for most jobs and obviously you need to have somewhere half decent to be able to work on them.
Unfortunately, I have very few of the the above attributes so have to rely on my garage :-[ (who do actually do a very good job at a reasonable price). It certainly has nothing to do with laziness or unwillingness to "have a go", it's just a necessity for some of us.
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I think confidence is the issue for me. Since joining the forum,I have attacked the prop.diff seal which was a pig. A few other minor jobs and have just watched JamesV6CDX do my cambelt twice now.Only because after the first time I had HG failure. I don't mind getting my hands dirty, but there are certain things which are crucial to get right. Having a bash at something is ok, IF the end result is a success. I will always try to DIY where possible and where confident.Having just paid out a large chunk of my hard earned,me and the car have fallen out >:(. Yeah it's working,but I can still be seen sticking my two fingers up at it. Irrational maybe,but the love has gone. :-[
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I'll do just about anything that doesn't need a ramp to do, as long as i have the confidence to attempt it. Just got JamesV6-CDX to do my cambelt, but will defo do the next one myself now I've seen and helped do it. I suppose things like HG are beyond a lot of people, but I really begrudge the £50-£70 an hour local main dealers and small garages charge you for a job you COULD do yourself with a liitle patience, preparation, and confidence. Will never begrudge paying for what I cannot do myself, but as i get older, there are a few things I just don't WANT to do. These are the joys in owning a car.
"If you gotta have hosses, you gotta have losses!"
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Before joining here I'd not touched any mechanical parts of a car as I just didn't know what I was doing. The amount I've learned on here and from watching people like Daz has given me a bit of that confidence to do jobs myself such as changing the door lock motor.
The main hurdle I have is lack of a suitable place to work on the car. My driveway is on a steep slope so doing anything under the bonnet involving fluids or anything requiring wheel removal is a no-no, so these sorts of jobs are done by a local family-run garage that we've used in the family for decades, who don't charge the earth.
Any major jobs particularly requiring Vx parts like cambelts are now are done by the likes of Daz as they know what they are doing and can do the job for half the price of a garage/dealer. I feel much safer doing it this way.
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If you dont attempt a job then you will never learn, as TB and Jimbob have allready mentioned, they had little or no experiance when they started.
Yes garage charge from £40 per hour and do everything to a book timescale, even if they do it in half the time you still get charged the book time.
Then they put thier apprentices on the job, these may not be much more capable than your self and have to keep asking for help or advice.
The thing is we all start some where, from changing a bulb or a cracked number plate.