Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: HNO3GOH on 20 April 2010, 23:01:03
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... so i've been told by a LPG company. I called an LPG fitting company today near me for a price and info on systems fitted and had a very long chat with this guy and we got round to the filler and where it has to go on the car and he told me the any other place other than the rear quarter is now not permitted now under new guide lines because plastic bumpers are to weak and fitting to the towbar is far from sucure and any LPG car will be subject to testing and if found not to be up to standard then your insurance company will not cover you and part of this reason for this test is to try and stop the DIY kits being sold and fitted. Has any one come across this yet because i was thinking about buying a kit and fitting it myself, also he said about single hole tanks are c**p and to go for a 4 hole and to try and stay away from polish systems and go for a danish made system :-/ :-/
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"he would say that, wouldn't he" springs to mind...? he wants the work, ignore.
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Some of us want it done properly
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there's a couple of issues here....
there are certainly no requirements as have been mentioned to you.
yes, he probably wants the work
"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.
Actually, after much thought, I've decided why I don't like the commercial LPG industry. It's all to do with cost. As pretty much all people having LPG fitted are doing so for cost reasons, it drives the inductry to do a cheap job - right down to the design of the kits from manufacturers.
Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.
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there's a couple of issues here....
there are certainly no requirements as have been mentioned to you.
yes, he probably wants the work
"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.
Actually, after much thought, I've decided why I don't like the commercial LPG industry. It's all to do with cost. As pretty much all people having LPG fitted are doing so for cost reasons, it drives the inductry to do a cheap job - right down to the design of the kits from manufacturers.
Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.
I disagree here .. LPG is NOT a "conversion" but an "addition" ... you have the choice to run LPG or Petrol, both are still present - in fact most start on petrol before changing to LPG - this is NOT the case of a diesel/petrol conversion as the two engines are totally different in design and spec.
Comparing the two is like comparing apples and potataoes. Both are edible, but that's as far as it goes.
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I totally agree with you, mate. 90% of all the systems I have seen appear to be poorly fitted and amateur, and seeing I want LPG on my 3.0V6, have looked at a lot so I might do it myself. LPG is in ADDITION to petrol in 99% of all cars, and because of the potential of accident/faults having an extra tank of flammable gas in the car in addition to any amount of petrol too, it had better be foolproof, properly installed, and totally safe. As for what that fitter said, have checked with the people who SHOULD know all the facts,( National LPG installation federation) and they tell me its complete bullsh*t. By the way, some of the Polish systems have BS marks and accreditation, so they must be up to the job.......
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any other place other than the rear quarter is now not permitted now under new guide lines because plastic bumpers are to weak and fitting to the towbar is far from sucure
Well, I've had 1.8 tons of trailer hanging off my towbar and it didn't go anywhere. I'd say that's secure enough for an LPG filler.any LPG car will be subject to testing and if found not to be up to standard then your insurance company will not cover you
So, someone's going to knock on the door of every LPG car owner and demand that it's tested? :-/
and part of this reason for this test is to try and stop the DIY kits being sold and fitted.
This has always been the dream of the LPGA / UKLPG. They are a trade association and, as such, exist to generate work for their members over and above anything else. If their members were policed a bit better and not such total cowboys they might have made more inroads in that respect.
UKLPG can dream up whatever rules they like. Until there is either a legal obligation to use only their members for LPG work or 100% commitment from the insurance industry to require vehicles to be converted by their members, DIY LPG will carry on unaffected.
Has any one come across this yet because i was thinking about buying a kit and fitting it myself, also he said about single hole tanks are c**p and to go for a 4 hole and to try and stay away from polish systems and go for a danish made system :-/ :-/
Makes no odds where the system is made as long as it suits the car. I have a Polish setup on mine and can't fault it. Choice between 4 hole and single hole is down to budget and power output. Nothing wrong with a single hole tank, certainly below 200 BHP there is little advantage in going 4 hole IMHO.
This sounds like typical scaremongering from an LPGA "professional" - the type who drills intake manifolds in-situ, most likely. ;)
"done properly" very rarely applies to a commercial LPG fitter. You could do a better, safer job yourself in pretty much all circumstances.
Agreed. :y
Thinking about it, if you were going to change from petrol to diesel, you wouldn't keep the petrol injection system, blank off the injectors and then add a piggy-back device to run the diesel injection system, would you ? But that's pretty much how an LPG conversion works.
In an ideal world you are correct but most people wouldn't want to change to LPG but have dual fuel capability due to the less than widespread availability of LPG.
Given that you've got to retain the capability to run on petrol and the petrol ECU is quite tightly integrated with other systems on the car (automatic gearbox, ABS/TC, etc.), and this varies between models of car the most standard interface where you can connect the LPG system is at the fuel injector output of the petrol ECU.
This is a compromise, of course. You would design the engine itself differently for LPG and the need to start on petrol is also a symptom of piggy backing from the petrol ECU.
Kevin
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got a Polish system with 90L single hole tank on mine, over 1k later, not missed a beat!!!
With regards to single hole tank, nothing wrong with them! Very few LPG filler stations take advance of 4 hole, and unless your 200 bhp + its not needed!
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slightly off topic but ........ single hole / 4 hole ?
whats the differance ? ( other then the hole that is ;D )
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slightly off topic but ........ single hole / 4 hole ?
whats the differance ? ( other then the hole that is ;D )
single hole means one hole in the tank, 4 hole, err, means 4 holes i tank!
Idea is more flow in and out of the tank, so faster fills, and can send it to engine quicker. But very, very few LPG stations can fill the faster rate, if they can, bet their price won't be the cheapest. ;)
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As I understand it .... and probably wrong anyway .. but this is how it was explained to me ...
Single hole tank .. one hole has to provide facilities for liquid in/vapour out when filling, liquid out when running (no need to vent when running as boil off replaces the liquid used) and a "blow off" safety line as well .. so one hole does 4 jobs.... thus having flow restirctions
4 hole tank has a hole for liquid in, a hole for vapour out, a hole for liquid for running and a hole for "safety release" .. ie a hole for each job.
This means it can handle higher flow rates for faster filling and greater horsepower.
HTH and hope it is reasonably accurate !!
The only bit I'm unsure of is the "fill vent" aspect .. as there is certainly no smell of venting when i fill up !!
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The only bit I'm unsure of is the "fill vent" aspect .. as there is certainly no smell of venting when i fill up !!
So there shouldn't be. The only circumstances in which the tank vents is if the internal pressure exceeds the design limits of the tank. When filling normally, the space taken up by the additional liquid is given up by increasing pressure of the vapour in the tank and condensation of the vapour into liquid on the walls of the tank, reducing its' volume.
Older LPG tanks used to have a "spill valve" located at the 80% level on the tank. When filling, this valve would be cracked open to allow vapour to escape. You used it to determine when the tank was full before automatic fill cutoff valves were common. Essentially, once liquid started to emerge, you stopped filling.
The only LPG tank I can recall seeing this arrangement on was fitted to the old winches at the gliding club. I once had to fill one at 5:30 AM and -5 oC. It took some doing to remove my frozen fingers from the spill valve after tightening it up. :o Thereafter, I wore gloves. ;D
Kevin
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HN03... What a load of total horse.... you've been fed!
I have now seen several "Professional" LPG installations and all of them (with the exception of Entwood's) were done by someone I wouldn't let near my rollerskates if it a sign of the standard of their work :o :o
Tanks... Already been explained.
Nationality of kit... Polish/Italian are plenty good enough :y :y
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But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.
Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)
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But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.
Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)
There is no way that a DIY LPG install is beyond your capabilities. You would get all the help you needed & more from the guys on here i'm sure? I'm going to do mine as soon as I can arrange the kit and I expect the guys on here will be sick of the sound of me before it's done, but I know they will come up Trumps :y
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But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.
Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)
There is no way that a DIY LPG install is beyond your capabilities. You would get all the help you needed & more from the guys on here i'm sure? I'm going to do mine as soon as I can arrange the kit and I expect the guys on here will be sick of the sound of me before it's done, but I know they will come up Trumps :y
its all about research imo. Its important to know and understand whats needed, what goes where, understand what your doing, then it becomes far easier.
TBH i really dont think it helps to get irelevant oppinons from people with no first hand experience of your kit or car. They want your cash for the install and will most likely make a hash of it. Zumerzet not far from Alton and Kevin wood, or myself in Reading, The Boy in Brackley, if your up this way. Hava a look at where everything is sited in the engine bay and simply replicate what you see. Althouh i bottled the soldering to the loom tbh. Kevin to the rescue.
In short, speak to people who've done the job. With the help available here, most things are possible.
Check the guides section also. :y
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But the thing is i would have a try at a DIY but i would balls it up so this is why i had a look at companys near to me but i was told today that the £1900 they quoted was far to high and to have a look at some of the companys who are on ebay selling it as they are doing it for £1300, then i talk to the guys on here and it seems to be stay away from the companys and DIY.
Does a member who has done this before fancy a little job ;) ;)
There is no way that a DIY LPG install is beyond your capabilities. You would get all the help you needed & more from the guys on here i'm sure? I'm going to do mine as soon as I can arrange the kit and I expect the guys on here will be sick of the sound of me before it's done, but I know they will come up Trumps :y
its all about research imo. Its important to know and understand whats needed, what goes where, understand what your doing, then it becomes far easier.
TBH i really dont think it helps to get irelevant oppinons from people with no first hand experience of your kit or car. They want your cash for the install and will most likely make a hash of it. Zumerzet not far from Alton and Kevin wood, or myself in Reading, The Boy in Brackley, if your up this way. Hava a look at where everything is sited in the engine bay and simply replicate what you see. Althouh i bottled the soldering to the loom tbh. Kevin to the rescue.
In short, speak to people who've done the job. With the help available here, most things are possible.
Check the guides section also. :y
Thats probably the best advice you'll get from anyone regarding LPG conversions.
Yes, there are lots of rules and regulations, and there is limited space under the bonnet for components (particularly on 3.0l with cruise!), hence looking at what other people have, and how/where components are located.
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Agree with other comments, it can easily be done by you :y
Mounting the tank, filler is easy, heck i did it! (with guidance from LD) We have the guides now so that should help you :y
Running pipe work is also easy if you use Polyflex, KevinW has spare V6 manifolds i think? Get a second one with injectors mounted so that can just be swapped over.
If you get things like tank mounted, filler, pipe work run, cooling pipe work at front done, then get one of the LPG experts down, as finishing touches at front could be done in a day :)
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i paid 1800 to have my v8 jag converted so the quote you got for 1900 is way to high. they took a week to fit it and gave me a 5 year warranty and 3 years free servicing . never let me down once , i guess you get what you pay for .but the way LPG is going up in price is it now worth it ??
someone on flea bay was offering same-day turnaround for 4 cylinder cars £750 hmmmmz.. got to be brave going for that lol
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i paid 1800 to have my v8 jag converted so the quote you got for 1900 is way to high. they took a week to fit it and gave me a 5 year warranty and 3 years free servicing . never let me down once , i guess you get what you pay for .but the way LPG is going up in price is it now worth it ??
someone on flea bay was offering same-day turnaround for 4 cylinder cars £750 hmmmmz.. got to be brave going for that lol
I can't see how anyone can do it in a day... 2 long days is possible if you already have a pre-drilled manifold and at least 2 people working on it.
Realistically 3 days is the minimum for an installation :y
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i paid 1800 to have my v8 jag converted so the quote you got for 1900 is way to high. they took a week to fit it and gave me a 5 year warranty and 3 years free servicing . never let me down once , i guess you get what you pay for .but the way LPG is going up in price is it now worth it ??
someone on flea bay was offering same-day turnaround for 4 cylinder cars £750 hmmmmz.. got to be brave going for that lol
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You certainly have!!! ::) They drill the intake manifold in situ, so all that swarf ends up in the intake and from there? :o
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Or use the new injector adapters to save drilling (not suitable for v6, and I reckon would compromise the petrol injectors on a 2.2)
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Or use the new injector adapters to save drilling (not suitable for v6, and I reckon would compromise the petrol injectors on a 2.2)
I wonder if you could space the fuel rail back on a 2.2 and make them work? Quite possibly.
It's not exactly a lot of work to drill a manifold, though, and having it out of the way gives you much better access for fitting the other parts of the system.
Kevin
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Ok so what sort of price am i looking at for the system and how do i get my mits on it also Saltyone posted that LPG is going up, by how much.
I did read the post and see the pics some time ago about the inlet and putting the gas nozzles in but not sure who posted it up but it looked to be very well done :y
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Ok so what sort of price am i looking at for the system and how do i get my mits on it also Saltyone posted that LPG is going up, by how much.
I did read the post and see the pics some time ago about the inlet and putting the gas nozzles in but not sure who posted it up but it looked to be very well done :y
AFAIK, the kit for a V6 is around £600ish? but not sure if this includes the tank :-/
PM Lazydocker, and he will probably give you the contact details of Teilo, the guy who supplies the kits :y
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i havent noticed the price of petrol tbh, but yes lpg has indeed gone up in price, but only in proportion to petrol, the percentage saving, i believe, is stiil about the same.?
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i havent noticed the price of petrol tbh, but yes lpg has indeed gone up in price, but only in proportion to petrol, the percentage saving, i believe, is stiil about the same.?
I certainly wouldn't want to be pouring petrol through a 3.2 at the moment. :o
Kevin
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also just to say, the kit does not have to be fitted all in one go, i guess your like me in the you need the car to commute? in which case its not going to be feasable to fit all in one go anyway without time off or experienced help. No problem.
Its easily broken down into stages. Personally i chose to fit the injectors first, I drilled my own manifold tapped the threads safe in the knowlegde of having a spare thanks to Lazydocker.
But the spare can be pre drilled and tapped before touching the car. Once the nozels are ready with pipes attached. All that needs doing is to swap manifolds, fit injectors, fuel lines, vac and vapourisor, run the loom to injectors. Once thats done and air tight the car will run. Do the rest as and when once the car runs. The loom can be tied up out the way in the engine bay no problem.
Then you can take as many weekends as you like to complete without the worry of beeing car less.
Its not too hard a job, "once your clear in your mind what to do before you do it" that is the key imo.
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i havent noticed the price of petrol tbh, but yes lpg has indeed gone up in price, but only in proportion to petrol, the percentage saving, i believe, is stiil about the same.?
I certainly wouldn't want to be pouring petrol through a 3.2 at the moment. :o
Kevin
spoke to a member earlier in the week, £85 to fill up his 3.2. Bugger that. Funny though, i'm blissfully unaware of petrol prices. Weeeeeee stamp the pedal.
;D ;D ;D :y
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i havent noticed the price of petrol tbh, but yes lpg has indeed gone up in price, but only in proportion to petrol, the percentage saving, i believe, is stiil about the same.?
I certainly wouldn't want to be pouring petrol through a 3.2 at the moment. :o
Kevin
spoke to a member earlier in the week, £85 to fill up his 3.2. Bugger that. Funny though, i'm blissfully unaware of petrol prices. Weeeeeee stamp the pedal.
;D ;D ;D :y
I had to fill my 3.0 estate aswell today and that was just over £83 :'( :'( :'(
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also just to say, the kit does not have to be fitted all in one go, i guess your like me in the you need the car to commute? in which case its not going to be feasable to fit all in one go anyway without time off or experienced help. No problem.
Its easily broken down into stages. Personally i chose to fit the injectors first, I drilled my own manifold tapped the threads safe in the knowlegde of having a spare thanks to Lazydocker.
But the spare can be pre drilled and tapped before touching the car. Once the nozels are ready with pipes attached. All that needs doing is to swap manifolds, fit injectors, fuel lines, vac and vapourisor, run the loom to injectors. Once thats done and air tight the car will run. Do the rest as and when once the car runs. The loom can be tied up out the way in the engine bay no problem.
Then you can take as many weekends as you like to complete without the worry of beeing car less.
Its not too hard a job, "once your clear in your mind what to do before you do it" that is the key imo.
The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
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also just to say, the kit does not have to be fitted all in one go, i guess your like me in the you need the car to commute? in which case its not going to be feasable to fit all in one go anyway without time off or experienced help. No problem.
Its easily broken down into stages. Personally i chose to fit the injectors first, I drilled my own manifold tapped the threads safe in the knowlegde of having a spare thanks to Lazydocker.
But the spare can be pre drilled and tapped before touching the car. Once the nozels are ready with pipes attached. All that needs doing is to swap manifolds, fit injectors, fuel lines, vac and vapourisor, run the loom to injectors. Once thats done and air tight the car will run. Do the rest as and when once the car runs. The loom can be tied up out the way in the engine bay no problem.
Then you can take as many weekends as you like to complete without the worry of beeing car less.
Its not too hard a job, "once your clear in your mind what to do before you do it" that is the key imo.
The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
handy :y
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My kit was £580 ish iirc (still waiting for invoice!), complete with single hole 80l tank. 4 hole tank would be approx £100 more. Only other thing I had to buy was longer bolts for tank (which I still owe Kevin Wood/chrisgixer for :-[).
I chose to mount my filler behind number plate, still in process of fabricating something for that, Mk3 version was so close to working well, but we have a plan for a Mk4 ;D
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My kit was £580 ish iirc (still waiting for invoice!), complete with single hole 80l tank. 4 hole tank would be approx £100 more. Only other thing I had to buy was longer bolts for tank (which I still oweKevin Wood/chrisgixer for :-[).
I chose to mount my filler behind number plate, still in process of fabricating something for that, Mk3 version was so close to working well, but we have a plan for a Mk4 ;D
:y
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The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
I know where there's a tank going spare ::)
Apparently there's a guy in Alan's old unit who fits LPG
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The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
I know where there's a tank going spare ::)
Apparently there's a guy in Alan's old unit who fits LPG
I'll go and a have chat but i think the guys on here have talked me in to doing it myself :o
What tank is it that you have.
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The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
I know where there's a tank going spare ::)
Apparently there's a guy in Alan's old unit who fits LPG
I'll go and a have chat but i think the guys on here have talked me in to doing it myself :o
What tank is it that you have.
If its second hand tank, make sure its not too old, as mentioned before after 10 years they need to be pressure tested
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The Omega is the main car but i also have a work car here so dont need the Omega to go to work and now it looks like the good weather is here i have the cavalier back on the road so my other half will use that so i could do without the omega for a week.
Well i've just had a chat with my friend from the garage who does all the big work for me and and i've asked him if i could use one of his ramps for a week so i could have a try at fitting this LPG system and he said thats fine so it looks as if its all go, just need the system :)
I know where there's a tank going spare ::)
Apparently there's a guy in Alan's old unit who fits LPG
I'll go and a have chat but i think the guys on here have talked me in to doing it myself :o
What tank is it that you have.
If its second hand tank, make sure its not too old, as mentioned before after 10 years they need to be pressure tested
For the sake of £40 i think i'll have new :)