Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:05:12

Title: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:05:12
I am helping a Forum Member out with their car which has more than a few problems.
The LPG Conversion is terrible, water pipe has been used instead of gas pipe. The wiring has not being soldered or butt connected just bare wires wrapped then some yellow and green tape looks like a snakes nest in the fusebox :o
The injectors are just left laid on the oil filler cap one side, and a wire tie around the egr valve on the other..
Melted plastic pipe that are running off the evapourater.
The bagpipes seem to have got rather warm as so have some of the wiring loom :-? melted wires........ to say the least.
The plenum is held down with bathroom sealer, one bolt through the plenum with a nut under the inlet manifold, the other three are all stripped, oh but the egr valve pipe is holding the other side down :-?
The water pipe that goes to the throttle body is from a 3.0 so the pipe is kinked back on itself to go to the 2.5 throttle body :-?

Just a couple of pics hope you can see
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/02032010319.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/02032010320.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/02032010321.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/02032010322.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/02032010323.jpg)
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: hotel21 on 02 March 2010, 23:06:46
Far Canal (as they say in Holland.......)   :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: PhilRich on 02 March 2010, 23:13:01
Gobsmacked!!!! :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: tunnie on 02 March 2010, 23:14:52
i could have done better, and thats saying something  ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 02 March 2010, 23:15:57
Now tell me it was an LPGA registered installer?

That is unbelievable!

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:18:17
And thats just for starters  :(
There is no Certificate with this so called conversion either. I find it hard to believe that it can be allowed that people who just have not got a clue can get away with this sort of thing.
I have seen both Kevin Woods & Lazytinker's gas conversions both look professional done, you don't have to be a gas fitter to see they have both taken care in doing theirs, but crutters like this stick out a mile.
I have been on the phone to a very good LPG Fitter I have come across, who is a member on here actually and he has yet again helped me so thanks John :y
This car will be visiting John to have the LPG put right.
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:18:58
Quote
Now tell me it was an LPGA registered installer?

That is unbelievable!

Kevin

Apprently a member on here  :-?
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: goonv6 on 02 March 2010, 23:21:00
That's just... awful. Needs ripping out and starting again.
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Entwood on 02 March 2010, 23:24:30
What are those two "extra" bits tapped into the plenum for ???  one either side half way down ?? can't make sense of them at all ???
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:24:43
Quote
That's just... awful. Needs ripping out and starting again.

I said the exact thing to the LPG Fitter as I was wondering if I should remove things out of the way so he can have a clean startish when he gets it..
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Ken T on 02 March 2010, 23:27:15
what a mess.  :-X

someone doesn't know their arse from their elbow, sorry their gas from their water pipe.

Ken
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Vamps on 02 March 2010, 23:28:17
Another DLK Rescue.....hope you sort it out..... :y

You must be wearing you underpants on the outside of your trousers these days judging by the posts on here about you....... :y :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:28:49
Quote
What are those two "extra" bits tapped into the plenum for ???  one either side half way down ?? can't make sense of them at all ???


The one on the drivers side goes to a little black box with wires to it, the one on the passenger side goes down and across the front off the auxbelt to nothing, and is melted at the end, so looked for ages to try and find its partner, which seem to be at the back of the evapourator as there is the same pipe on a nipple which is also melted at the end (you can just see the pipe on the back of the picture of the vapouriser)
It is about 2mm away from the alternator so wondered if the heat from that could have melted it?
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:36:00
Quote
Another DLK Rescue.....hope you sort it out..... :y

You must be wearing you underpants on the outside of your trousers these days judging by the posts on here about you....... :y :y


That cause I'm Kinky Vamps no other reason  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: joshwyatt on 02 March 2010, 23:36:08
That is rather unbelievable!
I know LPG vehicles can retain their value a little better, and in some cases add to the value. But whenever I see an LPG vehicle, or am offered one I always shy away. I know nothing about it, and it appears some real horrors can occur.
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 02 March 2010, 23:39:36
Quote
That is rather unbelievable!
I know LPG vehicles can retain their value a little better, and in some cases add to the value. But whenever I see an LPG vehicle, or am offered one I always shy away. I know nothing about it, and it appears some real horrors can occur.

I know exactly what your saying as I am singing from the same hymn sheet, but when you see a proper job like Kev's, Paul's and Johns I would be happy with those. Entwood has a nice job done too although he is not as good looking as Kev ;D ;D ;D :P
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 02 March 2010, 23:57:55
Quote
Quote
Now tell me it was an LPGA registered installer?

That is unbelievable!

Kevin

Apprently a member on here  :-?

Hmm.  OK. I have an inkling I have seen that before, now you mention it. :-X

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Ken T on 03 March 2010, 00:00:36
Its basically about adding bits to a car. If you just chuck it in, things will get loose, move about, get hot, melt, come loose and are basically an accident waiting to happen.

Some people however, do it properly, all wires, pipes, items properly supported and mounted to avoid chaffing, and in areas where there are heat sources, appropriate heat shields are used. A good installation should be indistinguishable from the car's original installation, and done to the same standard.

Ken
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 00:10:54
Quote
Its basically about adding bits to a car. If you just chuck it in, things will get loose, move about, get hot, melt, come loose and are basically an accident waiting to happen.

Some people however, do it properly, all wires, pipes, items properly supported and mounted to avoid chaffing, and in areas where there are heat sources, appropriate heat shields are used. A good installation should be indistinguishable from the car's original installation, and done to the same standard.

Ken


I agree whole heartedly Ken. I did think though there was a check that had to be made by a qualified LPG Fitter to give a Certificate.... obviously not, which I think is alarming  :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: joshwyatt on 03 March 2010, 00:14:19
I think some LPG fitters have gone to the Jeremy Clarkson school of LPG with...''How hard can it be?'' Intermixed with ''Come on!!!'' and the frequent use of a hammer for delicate work.
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 March 2010, 00:16:15
LPGA regs state that LPG fuel line must be 250mm away from heat sources such as exhausts. I would consider the feed to an EGR valve to be part of the exhaust system, as they get rather hot, yet look where that LPG injector is :o Not even secured there either.

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 00:18:13
Quote
LPGA regs state that LPG fuel line must be 250mm away from heat sources such as exhausts. I would consider the feed to an EGR valve to be part of the exhaust system, as they get rather hot, yet look where that LPG injector is :o Not even secured there either.

Kevin


Best of that is it is not gas fuel line, it is a bloody water hose  :-?
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: dad1uk on 03 March 2010, 00:28:58
Frightening.... imagine if that had gone up, or worse caught fire then gone up when the fire brigade were dealing with it..... :-[
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 00:34:22
Quote
Frightening.... imagine if that had gone up, or worse caught fire then gone up when the fire brigade were dealing with it..... :-[


I am still a little worried about that as I cant find an inline fuse to stop the LPG from working :-[ I would like to make sure it does not work before it leaves me..
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Elite Pete on 03 March 2010, 08:40:54
Thats terrible. I think the installer should be named and shamed, what if he/she has been working on the brakes or steering or offers to do work for someone else :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: bigboykarl on 03 March 2010, 13:50:55
i have had that car since april and it never ran right on gas, guess we know why now...was perfect on petrol though...still with your help and a trip over the penines to the lpg fella i'm sure it'll run right for another 100k miles
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: hoofing it on 03 March 2010, 13:55:12
bloody hell lucky its not blown up :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Robski on 03 March 2010, 14:16:48
Quote
And thats just for starters  :(
There is no Certificate with this so called conversion either. I find it hard to believe that it can be allowed that people who just have not got a clue can get away with this sort of thing.
I have seen both Kevin Woods & Lazytinker's gas conversions both look professional done, you don't have to be a gas fitter to see they have both taken care in doing theirs, but crutters like this stick out a mile.
I have been on the phone to a very good LPG Fitter I have come across, who is a member on here actually and he has yet again helped me so thanks John :y
This car will be visiting John to have the LPG put right.
Johns a really good guy Daz as you already know with the help he gave on mine :y :y :y
But who ever fitted that gas should really stick to weaving birds nests,but at least it makes mine look good lol ;D ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 March 2010, 14:48:47
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 March 2010, 16:57:43
Quote
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y

.. and / or turn off the manual tank valve if it has one, or disconnect the solenoid if not. It won't switch over the LPG if there's no gas pressure. :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 March 2010, 17:11:30
Quote
Quote
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y

.. and / or turn off the manual tank valve if it has one, or disconnect the solenoid if not. It won't switch over the LPG if there's no gas pressure. :y

Kevin

Very true :y :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Martin_1962 on 03 March 2010, 17:28:52
 :o :o :o :o

That is scarey
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 18:25:38
Quote
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y


Could this be one of the wires you mean from the battery that goes to nothing??

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010328.jpg)

Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 18:29:31
Just a couple more Pictures of Karls engine before it gets cleaned up & new parts fitted...

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010330.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010332.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010331.jpg)
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: SP_3.2 on 03 March 2010, 18:30:02
WOW :o :o remember having a look over it with Rob on Monday but that is something else :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 March 2010, 19:02:27
Quote
Quote
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y


Could this be one of the wires you mean from the battery that goes to nothing??

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010328.jpg)

:o :o :o :o Even more shocking! It's conversions like that which get DIYers a bad name >:( >:( >:(

Where's the LPG ECU? If it's in the scuttle it may be easier to just unplug the ECU :-/ :-/

What kit is it... Do you know?

As for shutting the gas off... If it's a single hole tank with a multivalve then open the gas tight box and there's a knurled wheel... Turn it until it stops and you've shut of the gas at the tank :y :y

If in doubt... Post a pic and I'll point you in the right direction :y :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 March 2010, 20:01:02
Quote
Just a couple more Pictures of Karls engine before it gets cleaned up & new parts fitted...

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010330.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010332.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010331.jpg)


That's a rather fetching colour scheme for the valley! 8-)

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: dad1uk on 03 March 2010, 20:06:52
I was up at Daz's today, and it's even more frightening in real life..... >:(


Glad it isn't my car, but it should be ok after Daz has worked his magic!
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 20:46:57
Quote
Quote
Just a couple more Pictures of Karls engine before it gets cleaned up & new parts fitted...

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010330.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010332.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010331.jpg)


That's a rather fetching colour scheme for the valley! 8-)

Kevin


Just my colour actually Kev ;D

Think we have had a water leak in there ::)

The piston tops of 4 & 6 looked rather carboned up compared to the rest ::) maybe this is why it was running pants :o
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 03 March 2010, 20:57:10
Quote
Quote
Quote
That's just awful :o :o :o Whoever fitted that needs shooting ::) ::)

Easiest way to disable the lpg Daz, follow the loom over to the battery and there should be a live and an earth connection :y :y


Could this be one of the wires you mean from the battery that goes to nothing??

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/03032010328.jpg)

:o :o :o :o Even more shocking! It's conversions like that which get DIYers a bad name >:( >:( >:(

Where's the LPG ECU? If it's in the scuttle it may be easier to just unplug the ECU :-/ :-/

What kit is it... Do you know?

As for shutting the gas off... If it's a single hole tank with a multivalve then open the gas tight box and there's a knurled wheel... Turn it until it stops and you've shut of the gas at the tank :y :y

If in doubt... Post a pic and I'll point you in the right direction :y :y

To be honest Paul I don't know where on earth the LPG ECU is... there are loads of wires in the pollen filter area so could be in there.
Have not got a clue which make of kit it is mate cant see any names on it as I looked.
I will take a couple of pictures of the tank in the boot so you can point me in the right direction as this gas is not my thing at all ;)
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 March 2010, 21:03:17
Quote
To be honest Paul I don't know where on earth the LPG ECU is... there are loads of wires in the pollen filter area so could be in there.
Have not got a clue which make of kit it is mate cant see any names on it as I looked.
I will take a couple of pictures of the tank in the boot so you can point me in the right direction as this gas is not my thing at all ;)

Have a look here: http://www.ac.com.pl/site_media/files/2010/02/05/ENG-STAG-200STAG-4STAG-300_PLUSSTAG-300_PREMIUM_manual.pdf

First couple of pages have some diagrams of the whole system. Won't be the same system but they are all similar. Might help you figure out what's what.

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 04 March 2010, 19:53:44
Quote
Quote
To be honest Paul I don't know where on earth the LPG ECU is... there are loads of wires in the pollen filter area so could be in there.
Have not got a clue which make of kit it is mate cant see any names on it as I looked.
I will take a couple of pictures of the tank in the boot so you can point me in the right direction as this gas is not my thing at all ;)

Have a look here: http://www.ac.com.pl/site_media/files/2010/02/05/ENG-STAG-200STAG-4STAG-300_PLUSSTAG-300_PREMIUM_manual.pdf

First couple of pages have some diagrams of the whole system. Won't be the same system but they are all similar. Might help you figure out what's what.

Kevin

Although it is very good of you Kev to post this link.... you may aswell be talkin Hebrew ;D

I spent 3hrs driving around trying to find some LPG pipe. Apparently this conversion is a Bi-Gas ::) or something like that and so I needed 5mm pipe from the jets in the inlet manifold to the injectors which I managed to get, and 10mm pipe for the Evapourator to the Injectors which I failed to find :(
But at least the LPG Gas Man has not got to remove the inlet now as I have fitted the new pipes :y
Heads are all nice and cleaned, new head gaskets, manifold gaskets, thermostat, cambelt & tensioners, water pump plus all built back up other than Bagpipes which I need to fit a new bottom, plus new vac pipes as they are all melted, put the heli coils I have got to today into the stripped threads of the inlet manifold, fit plenum, change oil and filter, pour in the anti freeze then should be ready to start it up :)

Busy day so going to have a Wee Dram :y ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 05 March 2010, 09:22:53
I would re-seal that oil cooler plate.....
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 05 March 2010, 09:41:02
Quote
I would re-seal that oil cooler plate.....


Already done Master :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 20 March 2010, 18:03:07
Well as you know this car has been a nightmate. Karl left it with me to do when I had the time which was a good job really ::)

Anyway all the work was done, I then made the LPG wiring etc look far more tidy. On start up the car ticked over brilliant so I run it up to temp, got the air out of the system nice warm heaters etc.
Off I went for a test drive, as soon as I put my foot down the car died :-? just managed to nurse it home :o
So the normal thing wondering if you have made a mistake etc so went through everything stripping down and yes everything was exactly right :-?
After checking several things, blanking the EGR I decided it had done my head in so I left it until my head had cleared :y
"What is restricting the engine from revving freely?"
After several phone calls to Karl I find out that the car had not run right for ages... and that when he had a CAT from me a month or so ago he had been running the car missing..... also stuff had come out of the backbox.....

With this I dropped the CAT's down from the manifold and started the car!!!!!!

First turn of the key it burst into life, noisey like nothing I have ever heard  ;D but it also revved up freely like it is supposed to do.

I then removed the exhaust & CAT from Karl's car, which in itself was a pain as someone has fitted a Stainless Exhaust. But, one side had cut the end joint off the CAT, then welded it too the stainless exhaust, also totally removed the CAT from the other side to replace it with a straight pipe :-? :-?

I removed Vader's known good CAT's & exhaust which now "live on" Karl's car.....

It now runs quietly, revs how it should, and drives (unlike when it came  ::)) ;D
I can smile now but have pulled my hair out with this car.....

Here are a couple of pictures of the Stainless Exhaust from this car :y

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010031.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010033.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010034.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010030.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010028.jpg)

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/Pics2010029.jpg)
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 March 2010, 18:27:41
Chuffing hell....I didn;t know Steve Wonder could weld...

....edit, judging by that welding he cant
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 20 March 2010, 18:36:53
Think Jaime may have been at it with his MIG ali welder  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Kevin Wood on 21 March 2010, 11:31:25
Quote
Chuffing hell....I didn;t know Steve Wonder could weld...

....edit, judging by that welding he cant

Just don't look behind Jaime's back bumper. :-X

Kevin
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: feeutfo on 21 March 2010, 16:22:26
Wouldn't bet against having to romove the entire lpg system and start again Daz, its all got to be re done anyway, no way it'll get a certificate otherwise, i would think.

Best of luck with it, that pic of the relay box makes me feel ill. I think my Kevin Wood inspired install has 4 wires in there, or something similar...?
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: jonny2112 on 21 March 2010, 21:05:04
I still feel sorry for Karl having paid for this nightmare in the first place.  :'(
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 23 March 2010, 08:46:05
I know what you mean but he will have a good car when he has finished
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Debs. on 23 March 2010, 10:03:45
Rank-amateur butchery! :o

Truly shocking work....not to mention the potential danger! :-X
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Sixstring on 23 March 2010, 10:13:12
I personally (as a sparky by trade) would be ashamed if somebody named me as the installer, the bloke that did this should have all his extremeties removed!!!!!
what was he thinking of???

Vroom,vroom, BOOM!!!
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 04 August 2010, 01:17:57
I have just reread this whole thread which made me shake my head a few times plus laugh (now its done ;D)

Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 04 August 2010, 01:54:34
Quote
I have just reread this whole thread which made me shake my head a few times plus laugh (now its done ;D)



1st time I have read this thread Daz, that work was shocking.  Reply 32 with the eath tape wiring joints,  :-X :-/ :-/ :-/

If a job cant be done properly then dont attempt it in the 1st place, this car was a prime example of that.


Well done matey.  :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: 05omegav6 on 04 August 2010, 02:21:23
 :o
wasn't me ::)
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 04 August 2010, 09:13:46
Quote
I have just reread this whole thread which made me shake my head a few times plus laugh (now its done ;D)



I thought this a gem of a thread - a very enjoyable read.

Well done son 8-) :-* :-* :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: PhilRich on 04 August 2010, 13:50:54
Well Done Darth!, triumph in the face of adversity mate  ;D :y
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: feeutfo on 05 August 2010, 01:52:50
Any pics of the finished job D?
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 05 August 2010, 08:29:04
I don't think I did Gixer I was that pleased to see the back of it   ;D
Title: Re: Becareful of what your buying
Post by: feeutfo on 05 August 2010, 19:12:13
Quote
I don't think I did Gixer I was that pleased to see the back of it   ;D


 ;D  fair enough  ;D