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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 20:36:47

Title: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 20:36:47
g'day folks. as the title suggests i think ive sorted this ongoing debate.

because im a complete geek (and ive bin sick of people giving me stick about my auto.... 'its not fun' 'its not fast' etc etc) i have been doing some research and my findings have been quite interesting......

ok when the manual men talk about the performance of manual vs auto it is true that 'the stick' wins. buuuut this is only normal everyday cars (which is why the manual equivalent of my 2.5 v6 cd does 0-60 half a second to a second faster than my auto).

however we all know the fastest cars in the world (supercars) have the semi auto box with the paddle shift. but i have contacted ferrari, aston, jaguar and porsche (told u i was a geek) and they have all confirmed that you get exactly the same performance either using the 'schumacher looking' flappy paddles or the car in auto with the race/sport mode activated.

so there we have it. everyday cars the stick wins. fastest cars in the world its got to be an auto.

can of worms?? hahahahahaha  :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: feeutfo on 13 September 2010, 20:47:30
if there was never any traffic, manual all day long, but seeing as there is nothing but traffic no matter what you do these days, auto, simples. Mr Schumaker can stick his flappy padels frankly. Its a matter of personal choice. Tuff if so and so doesn't like it...
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 20:47:30
Quote
....
however we all know the fastest cars in the world (supercars) have the semi auto box with the paddle shift.  .....

that must also depends what the flappy paddles are operating, some semi-autos are manual boxes underneath with auto clutches ie VW's DSG, others are torque converter automatics with manual control.

You've also to bear in mind that manula 0 - 60's are generally achieved by dumping the clutch with fairly high revs on ..... not something you'd be wanting to do in your own car very often.  ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 20:51:01
i personally prefer autos anyway. the bugatti veyron has the semi auto ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 20:52:47
Quote
i personally prefer autos anyway .....

is there another kind of gearbox?  ;) ;) :y :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: lee4206 on 13 September 2010, 21:00:18
Quote
Quote
i personally prefer autos anyway .....

is there another kind of gearbox?  ;) ;) :y :y

Yes a proper one :D :D
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 21:07:53
lmao i knew this was a COW (can of worms) lol
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 13 September 2010, 21:18:07
Worth remembering that the flappy paddle boxes that offer a 'fully automatic' mode are usually manual gearbox gearsets with hydraulic actuators and clutch(es).. just a manual gearbox with a computer waggling the stick for you.

The automatic gearbox in most 'automatics' is a totally different beast made up of planetary gearsets and brake bands..

Very different technology, very different result when it comes to gearchanges ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 21:26:35
lol thanks aaron. im confused though (as im no mechanic).

so basically what youre saying is that even though they are still autos the auto supercar and normal auto is totally different although no difference in physically driving one? lol sorry 4 being thick :):):)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 21:31:38
Quote
Worth remembering that the flappy paddle boxes that offer a 'fully automatic' mode are usually manual gearbox gearsets with hydraulic actuators and clutch(es).. just a manual gearbox with a computer waggling the stick for you.

The automatic gearbox in most 'automatics' is a totally different beast made up of planetary gearsets and brake bands..

Very different technology, very different result when it comes to gearchanges ;)

isn't that what I said?  :-?   ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 21:35:53
Quote
lol thanks aaron. im confused though (as im no mechanic).

so basically what youre saying is that even though they are still autos the auto supercar and normal auto is totally different although no difference in physically driving one? lol sorry 4 being thick :):):)

Don't have to be a super car though. SWMBO's Smart has an 'automatic' gearbox but as Aaron & I have already described, it's a manual gearbox underneath with auto controls to do the clutch. VW's DSG has two clutches one for 1 3 & 5 and the other for 2 4 & 6 gears, when it's in one gear, the next gear is ready & waiting to change on the other clutch.
Don't you remember Clarkson in an Aston(?) where he was critising its flappy paddle gearbox?
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 21:39:24
arr ok but you as a driver still dont do anything other than steer and accelerate/breal like in a normal auto?
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 13 September 2010, 21:40:00
Quote
Quote
Worth remembering that the flappy paddle boxes that offer a 'fully automatic' mode are usually manual gearbox gearsets with hydraulic actuators and clutch(es).. just a manual gearbox with a computer waggling the stick for you.

The automatic gearbox in most 'automatics' is a totally different beast made up of planetary gearsets and brake bands..

Very different technology, very different result when it comes to gearchanges ;)

isn't that what I said?  :-?   ;)


Oops, so you did  :-[  :-X
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: unclelicklug on 13 September 2010, 22:02:54
Older design autos were handicapped by
- inefficient torque converter coupling which was needed in place of a more or less 100% efficient clutch
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising
- less effective controls compared to modern integrated electronics

Modern autos have multiple gears, potentially don't need a torque converter or incorporate direct drive and have sophisticated controls...so can't be long before we're all driving them.

I'll miss my gear stick.
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 13 September 2010, 22:11:58
its all fine mate. who needs a gear stick?

did u watch the top gear episode when the electric car raced the lotus elise. the elise was manual and the electric 'milkfloat' was standard auto.

the electric auto car aaaaaaaaaabsolutely p*ssed on the elise (good cos i gate them cars anyway) lol :y :y :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 22:21:06
Quote
Older design autos were handicapped by
 .....
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual

A torque converter auto is infinitely variable via the fluid drive.

Quote
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising- ......

You're going back a long way to an auto that doesn't lock up in top gear.

My 'proper auto' Omega is far better to drive than SWMBO's flappy paddle auto (OK .... the Smart is missing a few cylinders & 100+bhp  ;D) and I wasn't impressed with the DSG Passat I drove either. Either a proper fuid drive torque converter auto or a proper manual with 3 pedals (if I really have to  ;)) for me please.  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: tidla on 13 September 2010, 22:34:38
Quote
Older design autos were handicapped by
- inefficient torque converter coupling which was needed in place of a more or less 100% efficient clutch
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising
- less effective controls compared to modern integrated electronics

Modern autos have multiple gears, potentially don't need a torque converter or incorporate direct drive and have sophisticated controls...so can't be long before we're all driving them.

I'll miss my gear stick.

i need to brush up on my motor vehicle tech these days.
 thought 4th gear was 1.1 ratio with fifth and onward being "overdrive"

agree with all said and about to be put right..
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Entwood on 13 September 2010, 22:37:19
1. Check ....  number of feet

2. Check ....  number of pedals

if 2 > 1 .....     :-? :-?

if 2 = 1 .....    :y :y

if 2 < 1 .....  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: tidla on 13 September 2010, 22:37:36
Quote
Quote
Older design autos were handicapped by
 .....
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual

A torque converter auto is infinitely variable via the fluid drive.
Quote
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising- ......

You're going back a long way to an auto that doesn't lock up in top gear.

My 'proper auto' Omega is far better to drive than SWMBO's flappy paddle auto (OK .... the Smart is missing a few cylinders & 100+bhp  ;D) and I wasn't impressed with the DSG Passat I drove either. Either a proper fuid drive torque converter auto or a proper manual with 3 pedals (if I really have to  ;)) for me please.  :y

its not an efficient transfer of power thou..
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: unclelicklug on 13 September 2010, 22:44:56
Quote
Quote
Older design autos were handicapped by
 .....
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual

A torque converter auto is infinitely variable via the fluid drive.

Quote
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising- ......

You're going back a long way to an auto that doesn't lock up in top gear.

My 'proper auto' Omega is far better to drive than SWMBO's flappy paddle auto (OK .... the Smart is missing a few cylinders & 100+bhp  ;D) and I wasn't impressed with the DSG Passat I drove either. Either a proper fuid drive torque converter auto or a proper manual with 3 pedals (if I really have to  ;)) for me please.  :y

If the torque converter could give you a decent range of ratio you wouldn't need any gears at all in the auto' box, actually it can just handle a relatively small ratio spread, and also allows slippage so the outlet shaft can be stationary for starting and stopping...suspect you're right about direct drive autos, my '96 Previa certainly had this.

Anyways a V6 auto must be a nice restful place to be and money no object seems the right 'box for the car  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: unclelicklug on 13 September 2010, 22:49:05
Quote
Quote
Older design autos were handicapped by
- inefficient torque converter coupling which was needed in place of a more or less 100% efficient clutch
- lack of gear ratios meant gear selection was more often compromised vs a 5 or 6 speed manual
- top gear in a manual is typically direct drive through the box, so quite efficient power transmission is achieved for cruising
- less effective controls compared to modern integrated electronics

Modern autos have multiple gears, potentially don't need a torque converter or incorporate direct drive and have sophisticated controls...so can't be long before we're all driving them.

I'll miss my gear stick.

i need to brush up on my motor vehicle tech these days.
 thought 4th gear was 1.1 ratio with fifth and onward being "overdrive"


agree with all said and about to be put right..

I think you're right, it has been done that way, but direct drive on top gear seems most logical (most efficient gear should be the cruising gear?), after all you can make the overall gearing anything you like by tweaking the final drive
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Kevin Wood on 13 September 2010, 22:56:17
Quote
My 'proper auto' Omega is far better to drive than SWMBO's flappy paddle auto (OK .... the Smart is missing a few cylinders & 100+bhp  ;D) and I wasn't impressed with the DSG Passat I drove either. Either a proper fuid drive torque converter auto or a proper manual with 3 pedals (if I really have to  ;)) for me please.  :y

Terrible things. Just because you can change gear in a couple of milliseconds it doesn't mean you should, every time you change gear, whether pressing on or driving miss daisy. Just because the car can change down with every slight movement of the right foot it also doesn't mean it should. Tiresome, heavy over-complex things. The perfect example of technology for technology's sake. Or, I suppose, trying to make an auto box that will work with a Diseasel with horrible power delivery. ;D

Last time I drove a car with such an appauling transmission it was a Volvo 340 with the elastic band CVT. ;D

Oh, it's been so nice to have a manual gearbox again for the last 2,000 miles. :D

Kevin
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 23:08:09
Quote
....
If the torque converter could give you a decent range of ratio you wouldn't need any gears at all in the auto' box, actually it can just handle a relatively small ratio spread, and also allows slippage so the outlet shaft can be stationary for starting and stopping... .....

'Yank Tanks' of the 50s use to often just have 2 speed autos  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 13 September 2010, 23:14:23
Quote
Quote
....
If the torque converter could give you a decent range of ratio you wouldn't need any gears at all in the auto' box, actually it can just handle a relatively small ratio spread, and also allows slippage so the outlet shaft can be stationary for starting and stopping... .....

'Yank Tanks' of the 50s use to often just have 2 speed autos  :y

But they also had engines with the kind of displacement you'd usually see shifting a cruise liner..  ;D
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 23:19:04
Quote
.....But they also had engines with the kind of displacement you'd usually see shifting a cruise liner..  ;D

with the BHP of a 1100 Escort  :y  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: henryd on 13 September 2010, 23:22:03
Quote
Quote
....
If the torque converter could give you a decent range of ratio you wouldn't need any gears at all in the auto' box, actually it can just handle a relatively small ratio spread, and also allows slippage so the outlet shaft can be stationary for starting and stopping... .....

'Yank Tanks' of the 50s use to often just have 2 speed autos  :y

as did vauxhalls cresta and viscount :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 13 September 2010, 23:46:43
Quote
....
as did vauxhalls cresta and viscount :y

I didn't realise they did too. Having said that, my Dad used to have a 1949 Triumph 'Razor Edged' Saloon (not a Renown .... but similar) and that was a 3 speed manual - column change  :-?  :y  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: geoffr70 on 14 September 2010, 00:42:36
Automatics are for winners! When people tell me they don't like them I just tell them that after a certain amount of time driving them, you just know them, and know exactly what they are going to do so can control them in that way. E.g. coming off a roundabout, accelerate, changes down smoothly exactly when you want and when you're expecting, nice and smoothly. I just can't seem to drive manuals as well, now that I'm used to a proper gearbox! I think autos are much better for the driving conditions we have to endure now, stop, start, lights, rounabout, stop, start. You're not driving so much as following the (lesser!) car in front!
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: tidla on 14 September 2010, 00:48:51
drive an auto myself.

best way to answer this question is head down to your local santa pod and do a touch of market research..
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: geoffr70 on 14 September 2010, 00:52:26
Quote
drive an auto myself.

best way to answer this question is head down to your local santa pod and do a touch of market research..

good point, but after driving my auto elite and manual mv6, i think my auto is about the same, if not a little faster, not from a standstill but definitely from 20-40. I understand that due to gearing autos are faster than manuals at certain speeds (Omegas anyway).

But just because one is faster, does that make it better?
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: unclelicklug on 14 September 2010, 07:19:30
Quote
Quote
Quote
....
If the torque converter could give you a decent range of ratio you wouldn't need any gears at all in the auto' box, actually it can just handle a relatively small ratio spread, and also allows slippage so the outlet shaft can be stationary for starting and stopping... .....

'Yank Tanks' of the 50s use to often just have 2 speed autos  :y

as did vauxhalls cresta and viscount :y

Beat me to it - should have stayed up later!

Good topic this.

If the economy thing didn't apply I don't think there's much doubt that autos are the best.
We're not far away from autos being better than manual for this as well - certainly for top end models where some money can be spent on multi ratios, good controls.
And there's still the option to over ride the auto box if you want that.

But there's still a lot of satisfaction in driving manual on the right day..
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: pembsomega on 14 September 2010, 16:44:10
Day to day driving it's personal choice, as a 'drivers' choice manual wins every time, with an auto box you will always loose some control over your macine, yes f1 cars and wrc cars have flappy paddles, but they only shift on the drivers command, totally different from a normal auto.

You won't find an auto on Any rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer.

There is a reason.
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Entwood on 14 September 2010, 16:49:15
Quote
Day to day driving it's personal choice, as a 'drivers' choice manual wins every time, with an auto box you will always loose some control over your macine, yes f1 cars and wrc cars have flappy paddles, but they only shift on the drivers command, totally different from a normal auto.

You won't find an auto on Any rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer.

There is a reason.


You won't find a rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer cruising down the motorway

There is a reason


:)

horses for courses as they say ..  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: jonnycool on 14 September 2010, 16:53:36
Quote
i personally prefer autos anyway. the bugatti veyron has the semi auto ;)
I watched a programme on the Veyron the other day, it's actually a manual box which has 2 clutches working side by side to seamlessly change ratios in the blink of an eye by matching the shaft speeds of adjacent ratios, if that makes any sense! (I'm no expert)

As opposed to a full automatic with torque converters, that is  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 16:55:15
this is normal cars tho. the bugatti veyron has an auto. a lot more advanced than the standard car of course.
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 16:57:53
thanks m8. this box that has dual clutch changes gears at 1, 3 and 5 and the other clutch does the rest... you (as in the driver) drives it like a normal auto if he wants tho, right???? :)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: pembsomega on 14 September 2010, 17:08:29
Quote
Quote
Day to day driving it's personal choice, as a 'drivers' choice manual wins every time, with an auto box you will always loose some control over your macine, yes f1 cars and wrc cars have flappy paddles, but they only shift on the drivers command, totally different from a normal auto.

You won't find an auto on Any rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer.

There is a reason.


You won't find a rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer cruising down the motorway

There is a reason


:)

horses for courses as they say ..  ;) ;) ;)


That's why I said day to day driving it's a personal choice, but anyone that claims to enjoy driving for drivings sake, or likes to push on in twistys can't have an an auto, or they are hypocrites!  ;) :-X

Every auto I've driven has been 100% acceptable for normal driving, but a complete nightmare for hooning it, and I don't mean blasting down a dual carrige way I mean down the lanes...... Pembrokeshire b roads are something specail
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 14 September 2010, 17:44:11
Quote
Day to day driving it's personal choice, as a 'drivers' choice manual wins every time, with an auto box you will always loose some control over your macine, yes f1 cars and wrc cars have flappy paddles, but they only shift on the drivers command, totally different from a normal auto.

You won't find an auto on Any rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer.

There is a reason.

A few seasons ago didn't F1 experiment with boxes that automatically changed down a set number of gears as soon as the driver started braking into each corner? I'm not sure if that was a 'I'd like 2nd' or 'Change into the best appropriate gear' choice, though.. Probably the former so it is still kinda under the drivers control, he just wasn't pushing the buttons for each change.
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Andy B on 14 September 2010, 17:51:46
Quote
Quote
i personally prefer autos anyway. the bugatti veyron has the semi auto ;)
I watched a programme on the Veyron the other day, it's actually a manual box which has 2 clutches working side by side to seamlessly change ratios in the blink of an eye by matching the shaft speeds of adjacent ratios, if that makes any sense! (I'm no expert)

As opposed to a full automatic with torque converters, that is  :y

ie VW's DSG  :y  :y  :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: pembsomega on 14 September 2010, 17:54:20
Quote
Quote
Day to day driving it's personal choice, as a 'drivers' choice manual wins every time, with an aYuto box you will always loose some control over your macine, yes f1 cars and wrc cars have flappy paddles, but they only shift on the drivers command, totally different from a normal auto.

You won't find an auto on Any rally / hillclimb / sport / salon racer.

There is a reason.

A few seasons ago didn't F1 experiment with boxes that automatically changed down a set number of gears as soon as the driver started braking into each corner? I'm not sure if that was a 'I'd like 2nd' or 'Change into the best appropriate gear' choice, though.. Probably the former so it is still kinda under the drivers control, he just wasn't pushing the buttons for each change.


Yes it was the former, the car knew that each time the down shift was pulled it had to go down to a certain gear for that courner, if for some reason the lap was fluffed and extra down shifts where required then the system was over ridden and would not bf reset until the start if the next lap.

That's how it worked for renault anyway, cousin worked for them.......


Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 22:11:04
ok this is a bit complicated 4 me hahaha lmao

so we're agreed that if you have a normal car its got to be a manual; if you have a supercar or any car with the vw c something d gearbox it has to be the auto??? hehehehehehehehe  :y :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Entwood on 14 September 2010, 22:31:19
Well .. I have an auto and its great.. not a problem at all .. however .. when the "red mist" rises and I want to have a play ..... select 2nd gear and sports mode ON.

2 gears now .. 0 - 50 ish and 50 - 80 ish .. more than enough power, traction and stupidity for "hoofing" it around any country lanes  (it ain't a country lane if you can get over 80 !!).. only one downside .... don't look at the instant fuel consumption while doing this .. your wallet will burst into tears ..

IMHO the handling is as good as the manual under those conditions .. plus you keep 2 hands on the wheel .. :)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Broomies Mate on 14 September 2010, 22:38:23
If we were all to be honest;

Missing a gear change.  We've all done it, it's more likely when the heart is racing, adrenaline is pumping and you want to be in 'that' lane, when you are in 'this' lane.

I'm an advocate for Manual Gearboxes.  I'm still young (or at least remember being young), and you cant begin to compare a Manual and Auto on tight twisty roads...... BUT, one missed gear-change, and the Manual advantage is not only removed, but thrown into another universe.  You cant mis a gear with an Auto!
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 22:42:25
and to extract the most from a manual changes have to be spot on ;)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: geoffr70 on 14 September 2010, 22:55:12
The omega needs to be automatic anyway, as you're constantly using your left arm to hit the climate control and get it to do what you want!

I might be right, I might be wrong, but, I associate comfort and prestige with auto boxes, not manuals. Why iron your shirt when someone can do it for you? Why change gear when someone (or something) can do it for you!?!?
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 23:07:02
the best manual car ive ever driven was a mazda mx5. absolutely awsome car and it helped i was driving thru sunny texas at the time........ buuuuut while i was driving it thinking it was great, do u know what i really wanted to be driving? thats right a MUSTANG!!!!! 4get transmission (apart from the fact the auto gear stick in a mustang looks like it could launch several nuclear weapons lol) its the car that won my heart ; ) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Broomies Mate on 14 September 2010, 23:09:18
Quote
the best manual car ive ever driven was a mazda mx5. absolutely awsome car and it helped i was driving thru sunny texas at the time........ buuuuut while i was driving it thinking it was great, do u know what i really wanted to be driving? thats right a MUSTANG!!!!! 4get transmission (apart from the fact the auto gear stick in a mustang looks like it could launch several nuclear weapons lol) its the car that won my heart ; ) ::) ::)

Not a Corvette or Camaro?  You should be banned!  ;D
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 14 September 2010, 23:21:04
hahahaha no way. something with a bit of heritage that aint plastic lol ; )
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 September 2010, 23:36:22
Quote
That's why I said day to day driving it's a personal choice, but anyone that claims to enjoy driving for drivings sake, or likes to push on in twistys can't have an an auto, or they are hypocrites!  ;) :-X

Every auto I've driven has been 100% acceptable for normal driving, but a complete nightmare for hooning it, and I don't mean blasting down a dual carrige way I mean down the lanes...... Pembrokeshire b roads are something specail


Nail on head. When pressing on you need to be in the right gear to exit the corner before you enter the corner. An autobox can't see what's coming. Until you hoof it out of the bend you're coasting in neutral.

Yes, you can manually hold an autobox in a lower gear but the ratios are so widely spaced this gets tiresome IMHO. Maybe you don't lose much performance but the satisfaction that comes with peddling a manual car along at a decent rate is gone, irretrievably, IMHO.

Having said that, an auto Omega is great for commuting, etc. when there's no prospect of any fun to be had.

Kevin
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 15 September 2010, 10:07:39
Quote
Having said that, an auto Omega is great for commuting, etc. when there's no prospect of any fun to be had.

That's precisely why my Omega is an auto (well, ok, it also had something to do with it being the only diesel I could find at the time!) and the MR2 is manual (and not the flappy paddle version)..

This morning it was sunny and nice so I took the MR2 with the roof down.. and regretted it as soon as I was stuck in traffic having to mess with the silly racing clutch all the time..
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Phil on 15 September 2010, 15:48:37
Quote
Nail on head. When pressing on you need to be in the right gear to exit the corner before you enter the corner. An autobox can't see what's coming. Until you hoof it out of the bend you're coasting in neutral.

Yes, you can manually hold an autobox in a lower gear but the ratios are so widely spaced this gets tiresome IMHO. Maybe you don't lose much performance but the satisfaction that comes with peddling a manual car along at a decent rate is gone, irretrievably, IMHO.

Having said that, an auto Omega is great for commuting, etc. when there's no prospect of any fun to be had.

Kevin

I'm guessing you haven't driven a 'modern' car with an auto box recently.

Vauxhalls own AF33 box is a 5 speed with triptronic, no flappy paddles its a push the stick over and manually shove the lever up and down. It is every bit as good as a manual and you CAN choose what gear you want to be in and use it as 'engine braking', if you want to pull away in '3rd' you can, if you want to change up or down before, during or after a corner with or without touching the accelerator, you can. if you have chosen a gear then 'boot it' it doesn't take over and kick down again, if you hit the red line it'll stay bouncing off the red line (normally with the wheels spinning  ::)) They only time it won't let you go down a gear is if the gear you are aiming for would mean its bouncing off the red line, and you wouldn't want to do that in a manual either, would you?.

Bearing in mind its now an 8+ year old design its massively advanced compared to the AF25/35

The AF40 6 speed version is supposed to be even better

Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 15 September 2010, 15:57:01
I may be old-fashioned but I prefer the 'box to have all the say. :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 15 September 2010, 16:00:05
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Nail on head. When pressing on you need to be in the right gear to exit the corner before you enter the corner. An autobox can't see what's coming. Until you hoof it out of the bend you're coasting in neutral.

Yes, you can manually hold an autobox in a lower gear but the ratios are so widely spaced this gets tiresome IMHO. Maybe you don't lose much performance but the satisfaction that comes with peddling a manual car along at a decent rate is gone, irretrievably, IMHO.

Having said that, an auto Omega is great for commuting, etc. when there's no prospect of any fun to be had.

Kevin

I'm guessing you haven't driven a 'modern' car with an auto box recently.

Vauxhalls own AF33 box is a 5 speed with triptronic, no flappy paddles its a push the stick over and manually shove the lever up and down. It is every bit as good as a manual and you CAN choose what gear you want to be in and use it as 'engine braking', if you want to pull away in '3rd' you can, if you want to change up or down before, during or after a corner with or without touching the accelerator, you can. if you have chosen a gear then 'boot it' it doesn't take over and kick down again, if you hit the red line it'll stay bouncing off the red line (normally with the wheels spinning  ::)) They only time it won't let you go down a gear is if the gear you are aiming for would mean its bouncing off the red line, and you wouldn't want to do that in a manual either, would you?.

Bearing in mind its now an 8+ year old design its massively advanced compared to the AF25/35

The AF40 6 speed version is supposed to be even better


There ok but, they are a bit slow to respond.

I tried a few when buying the mum bus (note, the auto box shoved the Tax right up due to the increased emmisions) and scared a few sales men/women
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 September 2010, 16:21:45
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I'm guessing you haven't driven a 'modern' car with an auto box recently.

Vauxhalls own AF33 box is a 5 speed with triptronic, no flappy paddles its a push the stick over and manually shove the lever up and down. It is every bit as good as a manual....

Yes, they are getting better (in the wrong wheel drive world!) but still nowhere near a manual IMHO.

You "make a request" to change gear using the stick, but still have no real control over the change other than whether it's up or down. The box decides exactly when it'll change, how much torque reduction to use, how hard to make the change, etc.

Let's say you got a bit deeper into a fast bend than you intended before changing down. With a manual you would realise this and make sure the change was subtle enough not to unsettle the car, perhaps add a blip of the throttle to match the revs, and be gentle as you come off the clutch. With an auto you are a passenger at this point.

I still maintain that a manual is what you want for enthusiastic driving, and with an auto you might as well save the effort, stick it in "D" and enjoy the scenery - IMHO, of course. ;)

Kevin
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: FoxyV6 on 15 September 2010, 16:29:17
i wouldnt have dreamed of owning an auto before my omega. drove my uncles auto mondeo, what a croc of c*ap that was. So all my cars where manual. However as i do alot of long journeys now the manual box was frankly a pain in the ass (tiring and aching legs are not nice when stuck in traffic).
the omega is a godsend in that respect, comfort and i get out after 5 hours driving not feeling like ive been dragged through a spin dryer. total bliss :y :y
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Webby the Bear on 15 September 2010, 17:08:46
a lot of comments saying that autos arent any good but arent these based on old/normal autos as opposed to supercar autos. although driven the same way two different autos. :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Martin_1962 on 15 September 2010, 19:46:03
Lets just say the the Omega auto is one of the best
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Broomies Mate on 15 September 2010, 19:49:39
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Lets just say the the Omega auto is one of the best

I think the 4pot petrol models are pretty useless with Auto tbh  :-/
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Martin_1962 on 15 September 2010, 19:52:49
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Lets just say the the Omega auto is one of the best

I think the 4pot petrol models are pretty useless with Auto tbh  :-/

Still one of the better autos I have driven
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: Squidy on 16 September 2010, 09:45:20
I Refuse to get into a debate but....  ;)

i would have a manual over a standard auto (with planetary gears) but would have a semi-auto (dual clutch) over a manual, only because it suits my driving, i don't like a car deciding what gear it thinks i need, because on a good road quite often an auto will change down mid corner, NOT what you want when your belting it!

with a semi-auto its best of both, hassle free cruse and super fast changes on a proper box when you want them.

the daft thing is the omega is one of the easiest manuals ive ever driven, i've never had a car that effortlessly drives around at 30mph in 5th till now
Title: Re: Auto vs Manual finally put to bed...... I think
Post by: aaronjb on 16 September 2010, 10:06:39
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the daft thing is the omega is one of the easiest manuals ive ever driven, i've never had a car that effortlessly drives around at 30mph in 5th till now

I particularly liked your opening sentence ..  ;D

But you bring up a good point - I really miss that.. these days I have a choice between a highly strung, revvy, silly racing clutch 1.8l 4-pot that takes a lot of 'working' and the auto diesel Omega..

But I really did used to love driving the 300ZX, you could just tickle it along in 4th or 5th pretty much constantly if you were moving faster than walking pace. So lazy  :D