Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: feeutfo on 26 September 2010, 19:00:28
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I have an elite, and am chasing the mv6 setup. I have fitted lowered sports chassis suspension all round, this has reduced the body roll significantly and I'm happy enough with the ride, but...
...none of the above has had the slightest impact on the steering feedback, it still pulls and reacts a lot more than an mv6 to the road surface and iregularitys. Why is that?
Afaik there is only one mv6/lowered sports chassis component left to fit that is not present on my car, the center tie rod. The bit holding the track rods, pitman arm, and steering idler together.
Talking to TB and Kevin, there is mention of this part in literature of giving sharper steering, and possibly leading to less bump steer, which is what I am after by the sound of it.
Bump steer... :-/ I believe, and Kevin also mentioned this, is something do with suspension movement affecting the steering, in as much that that steering rods to hub don't work on the same axis as the suspension meaning, as Kevin put it, the suspension movement affects the toe setting, all Makes sense in my head without fully applying it to the omega...
Anyway, simple question, to achieve the mv6 steering feel of the face lifts of Kevins and Bob Dents cars, do I need the centre tie rod mv6 face lift centre tie rod? Will this give the desired result? Baring in mind it's listed at 140 odd quid on trade club iirc :o >:(
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Get it plugged into a real T2 and remove/change the amount of servotronic assistance..... ;)
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Get it plugged into a real T2 and remove/change the amount of servotronic assistance..... ;)
Been down that road H, master checked it, it's on minimal assist already.
Guessing that the sharper steering feel will also feed back less as well, due to less leverage on the steering.... :-/
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Get it plugged into a real T2 and remove/change the amount of servotronic assistance..... ;)
Been down that road H, master checked it, it's on minimal assist already.
Guessing that the sharper steering feel will also feed back less as well, due to less leverage on the steering.... :-/
Struggling to see what the centre tie rod can contribute
Of course, with lowered setup, the wishbones will be at a different angle so that may have an impact
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FWIW (and I don't have a good handle on the front suspension layout) I think your understanding of bump steer is 100% correct, and if the MV6 part is different then that's for a reason....£140.00 is not cheap, is it on the cards to get a standard part modified?
Find a part from a broken car for a try out?.
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Get it plugged into a real T2 and remove/change the amount of servotronic assistance..... ;)
Been down that road H, master checked it, it's on minimal assist already.
Guessing that the sharper steering feel will also feed back less as well, due to less leverage on the steering.... :-/
Struggling to see what the centre tie rod can contribute
Of course, with lowered setup, the wishbones will be at a different angle so that may have an impact
Short of removing the shock, and visually checking the suspension stroke before and after fitting the centre tie rod, not sure how to prove it.
Stock part is listed on tc as
Centre tie rod assembly - exc. lowered sports chassis from '00 90510648 £165.00 £141.09 £105.60
Lsc not listed for some reason? :-/
So there are two different parts, and I can not find any faults with the car, new wishbones, a tie rod, no other play, new bearings, several wim set ups. Only leaves this part afaict? And the different geometry of it...but I see your point :-/
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It would be good to compare the MV6 and Elite parts in case there is a significant difference. Only thing I can think of is that it mounts the inboard ends of the track rods differently to compensate for the lower ride height but I'm not even sure if that's possible without poking my head under the car.
Kevin
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FWIW (and I don't have a good handle on the front suspension layout) I think your understanding of bump steer is 100% correct, and if the MV6 part is different then that's for a reason....£140.00 is not cheap, is it on the cards to get a standard part modified?
Find a part from a broken car for a try out?.
Breakers would be the normal course, but there are so few facelift mv6 being broken I guess?
Intersting, to me anyway, post 2000mv6 is a different beast in your hands compared to a post 2000 elite. Just tracks so much straighter... :-/
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It would be good to compare the MV6 and Elite parts in case there is a significant difference. Only thing I can think of is that it mounts the inboard ends of the track rods differently to compensate for the lower ride height but I'm not even sure if that's possible without poking my head under the car.
Kevin
Wonder if andyc has both parts on the shelf? Lsc bound to be special order though I bet ya >:(
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Wonder if andyc has both parts on the shelf? Lsc bound to be special order though I bet ya >:(
I wonder if an "on the car" comparison would help? Guess I should have thought about that earlier. ::)
Kevin
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mmmm when you last discussed this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1271510372/1
the experts said was that there would be no difference, but if that is the case .. why do both LHD and RHD cars have different ones specified for both LSC and "normal" in the EPC ??
I don't see Vx making 4 different tie rods if 2 would do !!!
So I have to guess there IS a difference .. although what it is I don't know ... perhaps its something subtle like the angles of the bends that affect the radii (leverage) of the turns, a small radius will have more "feel" than a large one .. just like a small steering wheel is more "direct" than a large one ... the angular rotation is the same , but the distance travelled on the circumference is different ??
just random thoughts .. nowt else .. :(
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THis is only on facelift or MY2000 onwards,This is the same time the track rod ends change although the same track rod ends are used for both different centre drag links,Just a bit food for thought :y
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mmmm when you last discussed this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1271510372/1
the experts said was that there would be no difference, but if that is the case .. why do both LHD and RHD cars have different ones specified for both LSC and "normal" in the EPC ??
I don't see Vx making 4 different tie rods if 2 would do !!!
So I have to guess there IS a difference .. although what it is I don't know ... perhaps its something subtle like the angles of the bends that affect the radii (leverage) of the turns, a small radius will have more "feel" than a large one .. just like a small steering wheel is more "direct" than a large one ... the angular rotation is the same , but the distance travelled on the circumference is different ??
just random thoughts .. nowt else .. :(
Second that...sorry Chris but I don't think you'll be happy until you have the right part in there, even if only to eliminate it from the list of suspects...
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It would be good to compare the MV6 and Elite parts in case there is a significant difference. Only thing I can think of is that it mounts the inboard ends of the track rods differently to compensate for the lower ride height but I'm not even sure if that's possible without poking my head under the car.
Kevin
I cant see that you would ever want different lengths, that would give very odd effects.
I would ahv thought that the bump steer is less because the suspension travel on the harder setup is smaller, this gives less wishbone movement and consequently less interaction from the track rod ends
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Wonder if andyc has both parts on the shelf? Lsc bound to be special order though I bet ya >:(
I wonder if an "on the car" comparison would help? Guess I should have thought about that earlier. ::)
Kevin
Oh yes, I see what you mean ;D sorry. Vernia gauge and dividers style maybe? No worries :y
Suspect if this part has the desired effect re feel and feedback through the steering wheel, no point changing the suspension. Unless for ride, body roll and lowering reasons....?
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It would be good to compare the MV6 and Elite parts in case there is a significant difference. Only thing I can think of is that it mounts the inboard ends of the track rods differently to compensate for the lower ride height but I'm not even sure if that's possible without poking my head under the car.
Kevin
I cant see that you would ever want different lengths, that would give very odd effects.
I would ahv thought that the bump steer is less because the suspension travel on the harder setup is smaller, this gives less wishbone movement and consequently less interaction from the track rod ends
I always have trouble explaining things I think I understand in my head, let's say for example, that the stock ctr pivot points do not pivot on the same plain/centre line as the wishbone pivot point? And the lowered sports chassis center tie rod does, or along those lines/if that makes sense/if you see what I mean/sawtafing :-[
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The only thing that can be different is the section from the pitman arm/steering idler to the track rod
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First time in a while but this has sent me to my Haynes manual, a picture page 1.5, picture of the underside.
So we have strut suspension with a wishbone pivoting along an axis more or less defined by one horizontal (front) and one vertical (rearmost) bolt (give or take some compliance in the bushes).
And I'd expect the steering centre tie rod to reflect the line of that axis, but in the picture the ends of the tie rod at either end seem to be outboard of that axis.
Shows what I know.
But it says to me there is not a completely direct relationship between the length of the steering centre tie rod and the pivot axis of wishbones, and one variable here could be the ride height.
So if I'm making a fule of myself here then it's not a first but I do think there must be some significant difference between the standard and MV6 centre tie rod due to the different ride height.
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Sort of along my line of thinking in my previous post ... I'll try and explain it different ...
If the wheels are the same - as I think they are .. the hub heights are the same, so the track rod ends are the same height.
As the ride height is different the steering input is at a lower height on the MV6 as the body is lowered ... therefore the angle from the steering arm to the trackrod end is different .. \ (normal) against - (MV6) grossly exagerated but its all the keyboard will let me do !!) This gives a different effective radius ?? - the horizontal distance between the two I - I might be the same .. but the angular difference I \ I greater ???
So the "lever arm" of the steering is different thus giving a different "feel"
random thoughts part 2 ... :)
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looking at the above mentioned pic in haynes, only the steering idler joint and pitman arm joint line up with the wishbone pivot center line, cant tell if same hight, the ball joints are outboard, as said. But that whole section moves left right with the steering of course. Geting a hedache now...
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also, fitting lowered sports chassis suspension on mine, which lowers the ride hight, has made no differance to the the feedback sensation at the steering wheel with stock centertie rod.
So that, to me, says ride hight makes no obvious differance....i guess?
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Dunno any more, that was my intuitive thought but my head aches now too...and on the third glass of Sunday night red...will try again tomorrow... :-? :-?
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I think that post 2000 MV6 has the shorter pitman arm and idler arm. Which could cause an end-of-travel interference needing to be cured by a different drag link.
I swear that on my 2001 MV6 it rides no lower than my other Omegas.
if the chassis is really lower ( i.e. lower ride height ), then a slightly longer centre drag link would correct any bump-steer, but I would imagine that the effect would be very small if any. Basically, if the centre drag link ends are on hte wishbone pivot axis, then there will be no effect - and they are just about.
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Measuring Kevins mv6 wheel arches to floor, they are/where all 15mill lower than my Elite. Which is as oof legend.
Now, with lowered sports chassis fitted my front end sits 15mill lower once settled. Back still has self levelling shocks working, and tech 2 won't recalibrate it for some reason. However the back only needs to drop another 8mill or so to achieve 15 mill as well.
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
Certainly, do you like curry? :)
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hell yes !
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
Certainly, do you like curry? :)
I haven't been here long, and that was predictable, even to me.. ;D ;D
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;D
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The LSC rod is available from Vauxhalls @ £124.50 + VAT Trade
Cheers
Andy
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Thanks andyc, don't suppose you have one on the shelf? :-/
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
Certainly, do you like curry? :)
Did someone mention curry? :P
Kevin
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
Certainly, do you like curry? :)
Did someone mention curry? :P
Kevin
CURRY :D [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
Will try to sort something around 2woody when he is down maybe? Trouble is I'm on late shift this week, doh :'(
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I'm coming down South this week - fancy meeting up for a chat. has got to be better than telephone...... ::)
Certainly, do you like curry? :)
Did someone mention curry? :P
Kevin
CURRY :D [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
;D ;D
I didn't even know there were any decent curry places in Reading (the only one I knew of where I used to live was in Burnham, and having moved I'm now devoid of a curry house :'( )
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;D ;D
I didn't even know there were any decent curry places in Reading (the only one I knew of where I used to live was in Burnham, and having moved I'm now devoid of a curry house :'( )
I had a great curry in Bracknell.. a good few years back now, mind. Can't remember where it was, though. ::)
Kevin
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My personal favourite, they have 4 branches around Reading :y
http://www.miahs.co.uk/html/restaurant_spencers_wood.html
Chutney tray and popadoms ESP. :-*
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My personal favourite, they have 4 branches around Reading :y
http://www.miahs.co.uk/html/restaurant_spencers_wood.html
Chutney tray and popadoms ESP. :-*
And is 2 mins from a33/m4 jcn 11. Easy to find. :y
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am I going to be the star turn at the curry house ?
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am I going to be the star turn at the curry house ?
Depends what you order, I suppose. ;)
Kevin
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am I going to be the star turn at the curry house ?
Depends what you order, I suppose. ;)
Kevin
Should add TB and I owe Kevin a birthday Curry, so may have to share the spot light with the "old fella" ::)
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am I going to be the star turn at the curry house ?
Depends what you order, I suppose. ;)
Kevin
Should add TB and I owe Kevin a birthday Curry, so may have to share the spot light with the "old fella" ::)
:o .. but... Hang on a minute... ::) :-X
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Woah woah woah.. this is all going terribly wrong now.. ;D ;D ;D
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yes I know, I was 40 only a couple of months ago......!
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yes I know, I was 40 only a couple of months ago......!
...as was Mr. Gixer .. for a certain value of "couple". ;)
Kevin
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Ahh I feel so ... young ... :P
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yes I know, I was 40 only a couple of months ago......!
Hmmm, me too, but that Gixer bloke is much nearer 50 than me, you or that Wood fella..... ;D
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my visit to the South will be brief this week, but I'll probably be back next week. Wil let yous all know as soon as I do. Likely Sailsbury Plain rather than Bristol.
looking forward to meeting you all :-/
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Salisbury Plain eh.. not playing with tanks, are you? ;)
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is my secret out ?
yes, I work for the biggest company that makes them
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;D It was just a wild guess - there aren't many reasons people go to Salisbury Plain, much less on business :) (I only really know it because a friend of mine was MT section at Warminster, I think it was, years ago.. well that and the times it's been used on things like Top Gear ;D )
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it's ,er, quite busy at the moment.
I work for BAE Systems, for the part that used to be Vickers. I'm kind of the lead engine/transmission/running gear boffin.
I think I'm allowed to tell you that bit
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I've just remembered...
The code index in the servotronic ECU is different on my MV6 to most Elites I've seen.
No idea what it means. TIS only seems to suggest it depends on a sticker on the steering box so could be the code index is selected to tune out differences in the steering boxes or could be it's to give a different "feel" to the MV6.
Might be worth an experiment though.
Kevin
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this is for the silver MV6 - it needs steering lightening and some airbag diagnosis.
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this is for the silver MV6 - it needs steering lightening and some airbag diagnosis.
OK. :y We can have a little experiment. Was thinking this might be something to add to Chris' list of potential differences to eliminate too.
Kevin