Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: TheBoy on 18 September 2010, 11:44:38
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Coolant?
I reckon its an acrid/toxic smell, Mrs TB's words were 'sweet'
Can't really be anything else, can it - oil would be blue, if it was fuel that would normally be dark, but what about fuel from a leaky injector, or excessive unburnt fuel due to misfire, whould that still be dark at startup/cold?
And her 'sweet' smell makes it almost conclusive to me
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My odds are on coolant :(
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I must say TB that I have always believed white exhaust smoke to be produced by water.
Mostly of course it is down to excessive water in the exhaust, especially on cold starts, but continual white smoke when warm, and the outside temparature is mild, indicates to me water, therefore coolant, leaking into the combustion process.
Over the years I understand there have been continual problems with the K series engine head gasket, with them failing even when they were relatively new.
Taking everything into account, and the "sweet" smell, it to me indicates HG failure. :'( :'( :'(
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On a K-series the odds on bet is always the HG...
You didn't say which K series, but if it's a larger one (1.8) then when you replace the HG, replace the plastic locating dowels with metal (IIRC Land Rover parts, or find a kit designed for the Elise) is the general advice I believe.
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I must say TB that I have always believed white exhaust smoke to be produced by water.
Mostly of course it is down to excessive water in the exhaust, especially on cold starts, but continual white smoke when warm, and the outside temparature is mild, indicates to me water, therefore coolant, leaking into the combustion process.
Over the years I understand there have been continual problems with the K series engine head gasket, with them failing even when they were relatively new.
Taking everything into account, and the "sweet" smell, it to me indicates HG failure. :'( :'( :'(
Don't believe the hype on HG ;). Yes, the K series does suffer worse than most, but even now, in non Landrover installations, it appears not to be a fault with the engine.
This particular one, occasionally on startup, plumes and plumbs of white smoke, with a unique smell, usually acommpanied by a misfire - not running on 3, but a definate miss every couple of secs or so. K series will warm up to full temp at idle in about 90s. When it does it, the smoke won't stop for a few mins, or a couple of miles.
It is intermittent - I bet if I go out there now and start it, it will be good as gold.
It does suffer minor coolant loss - that is a suspect HG issue, with a suspected leak between waterways and the outside of block.
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On a K-series the odds on bet is always the HG...
You didn't say which K series, but if it's a larger one (1.8) then when you replace the HG, replace the plastic locating dowels with metal (IIRC Land Rover parts, or find a kit designed for the Elise) is the general advice I believe.
1.6. Currently Payen gasket, as recommended by the Rover engineers who designed/refined the engine.
I do have a LR MLS one, complete with oil rail 'on order' (*cough* via a back door, so awaiting delivery, could be weeks).
Its a later K, ie no distrubuter/MEMS3 based, so already has the metal dowels (as most except the early ones did anyway). It had a HG about 30k ago, appeared to be the more common failure type (ie, the HG went due to coolant loss, rather than coolant loss cause by HG)
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But anyway, stop the 'its a K series, its the HG', lets try to find the symptoms, diagnose what could be the cause, then look at remedies :y
Do we all agree that its coolant? Not fuel? Not oil? Not another unknown substance?
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But anyway, stop the 'its a K series, its the HG', lets try to find the symptoms, diagnose what could be the cause, then look at remedies :y
Do we all agree that its coolant? Not fuel? Not oil? Not another unknown substance?
Well yes TB, to me it is certainly coolant ;)
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But anyway, stop the 'its a K series, its the HG', lets try to find the symptoms, diagnose what could be the cause, then look at remedies :y
Do we all agree that its coolant? Not fuel? Not oil? Not another unknown substance?
Well yes TB, to me it is certainly coolant ;)
So, seeing as the exhaust is kind of sealed, and assuming nobody stuck a hose up the pipe at Luton airport, we have to assume its got in to 1 or more cylinders then?
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But anyway, stop the 'its a K series, its the HG', lets try to find the symptoms, diagnose what could be the cause, then look at remedies :y
Do we all agree that its coolant? Not fuel? Not oil? Not another unknown substance?
Well yes TB, to me it is certainly coolant ;)
So, seeing as the exhaust is kind of sealed, and assuming nobody stuck a hose up the pipe at Luton airport, we have to assume its got in to 1 or more cylinders then?
Yes, as it seems to be getting into the combustion process and that does indicate a cylinder or two ;)
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The white smoke/smell goes after a few minutes idling, or a mile or so driving.
If the firerings were leaking, would you expect coolant loss to increase during driving (it doesn't), or excess pressure in coolant (there isn't)
;)
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The white smoke/smell goes after a few minutes idling, or a mile or so driving.
If the firerings were leaking, would you expect coolant loss to increase during driving (it doesn't), or excess pressure in coolant (there isn't)
;)
Not if there is a hairline crack, not just in the HG but in the head or cyclinder, which could easily close up once fully at operating temparature.
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The white smoke/smell goes after a few minutes idling, or a mile or so driving.
If the firerings were leaking, would you expect coolant loss to increase during driving (it doesn't), or excess pressure in coolant (there isn't)
;)
Not if there is a hairline crack, not just in the HG but in the head or cyclinder, which could easily close up once fully at operating temparature.
Cylinders are lined (unlikely to get cracks), though heads do suffer from going porous.
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I should say, I have my own theories what it is, simply not had time to look at it.
This is partially a lesson in the correct diagnostics :y
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I should say, I have my own theories what it is, simply not had time to look at it.
This is partially a lesson in the correct diagnostics :y
Yes, thank you grasshopper! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
;D ;D ;D ;D
I would certainly be taking the head off by now! ::) ::) ;) ;)
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But anyway, stop the 'its a K series, its the HG', ....
Why? ;) ;) ;) ;) Just take the head off ....... you'll have to do eventually. :y :y But ... they say ..... there's not much scope for skimming it. ;)
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We had exacly the same problem on a metro that we raced. Didn't really effect it until it got hot. Then it became the slowest car in the world!!!
Headgasket all the way!!!!!
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Has it got one of those useless plastic inlet manifolds which includes a water way to the head from the throttle body base
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but is it losing coolant? you didnt say and there is another poss if its not losing it!! :y
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I thought you said a while back that you knew the headgasket had gone on this car and that you'd been driving it like that for ages anyway? :P
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Coolant?
I reckon its an acrid/toxic smell, Mrs TB's words were 'sweet'
Can't really be anything else, can it - oil would be blue, if it was fuel that would normally be dark, but what about fuel from a leaky injector, or excessive unburnt fuel due to misfire, whould that still be dark at startup/cold?
And her 'sweet' smell makes it almost conclusive to me
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmNmb2EReG4[/media]
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30k isn't much for a head gasket... :-/
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K-series lumps obviously have their well-documented issues with HG's. But with the "sickly smell" - was that on cold-start-up? If so, may be unburnt HC's?
And given the temperature has dropped quite a bit (well, it has "ooop norf :-[ ;D ), could the smoke not me excess condensation, just like Omega's do?
Has the engine had one of the modded HG's fitted, which are a bit more reliable? I know the K-series gets a lot of bad press, but a mate of mine has a Caterham 7 with the K in it, and he's never had any probs with it - and it's his daily driver ( the daft sod lol!)
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2 things to do ,
1 Change the inlet manifold O rings . The inlet manifold is water heated and these O rings fail causing misfire after start up and slight coolent leak.
2 Hydro carbon test the expansion tank for proof positive of HG failure .
I've run a K series Freelander for 7 years now and been through it all . The HG issue is a problem but the well documented MLS gasket conversion / steel dowels/ remote grey thermostat / oil rail conversion works .
Re white smoke . Ours has never emmitted white smoke irrespective of ambient and climatic conditions but the sweet smell you describe is evident and down to the exhaust vapour .
Good luck and HTH's.
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Sweet smell? Cannabis?
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Sweet smell? Cannabis?
Are you trying to say TB is on drugs now?
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at a guess the orange sealent whatever it is called
that goes round the water oil etc ways has lifted
and is letting in a little water in one cylinder on cool down every now and again not enough for a major misfire but enough fo a cough now and again with smoke
hence the sweet smell (antifreeze)
can go on like this for weeks
or can give up tomorrow
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How about the hydraulic fluid level(s)? In days of yore, if you did a brake fluid decoke (using old brake fluid down the carb neck instead of redex) it gave a VERY white exhaust smoke and a same sweetish smell...... ;)
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Sweet smell? Cannabis?
Are you trying to say TB is on drugs now?
TB's my mate, I won't have a word said against him quickly checks Admin status
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Why the worry? Mrs TB's having the Elite I bet ya. ;)
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Why question it? It's the HG. It is leaking to exhaust, not to block.
Cheap fix. Head doesn't need to be skimmed as it will blow again in another 5k anyway.
Bad times.
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
HG wouldn't necessarily contaminate the oil.
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Has it got one of those useless plastic inlet manifolds which includes a water way to the head from the throttle body base
Exactly, master, exactly.
But by putting K series in the title, everyone jumps on th HG ;)
I suspect its the inlet manifold gasket leaking.
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
HG wouldn't necessarily contaminate the oil.
No, but the length of time this has been going on with coolant loss, it's my bet.
30k life for an HG? Is that good or bad for this engine?
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Why the worry? Mrs TB's having the Elite I bet ya. ;)
She likes it, and uses it a damn sight more than I do. In fact, apart from 1 trip to MDTM, Luton Airport and Newent, not sure I've driven it...
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Has it got one of those useless plastic inlet manifolds which includes a water way to the head from the throttle body base
Exactly, master, exactly.
But by putting K series in the title, everyone jumps on th HG ;)
I suspect its the inlet manifold gasket leaking.
Beauty! I hope there is a 'fix' for this? :y
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
HG wouldn't necessarily contaminate the oil.
No, but the length of time this has been going on with coolant loss, it's my bet.
30k life for an HG? Is that good or bad for this engine?
The HG failures seem to be a sympton, not a cause on many K series.
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
HG wouldn't necessarily contaminate the oil.
No, but the length of time this has been going on with coolant loss, it's my bet.
30k life for an HG? Is that good or bad for this engine?
The HG failures seem to be a sympton, not a cause on many K series.
Of?
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No mention of a sump full of grey mayo, so money on inlet issue suggested previously by others IMO. Unless it does have gravy for oil of course....
HG wouldn't necessarily contaminate the oil.
No, but the length of time this has been going on with coolant loss, it's my bet.
30k life for an HG? Is that good or bad for this engine?
The HG failures seem to be a sympton, not a cause on many K series.
Of?
In the case of an actually failed HG I mean? Having just read this is likely something else.
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Generally K gaskets fail due to lack of coolant. Problem with the K - part of the initial design goal that it had to heat up in a minute or 2, is that it has a tiny amount of coolant - about 2.5-3l. Smallest leak, an its run out.
Now, the K was one of the first all alloy engines for mass produced cars. At slightly above normal combustion temps, you get a strange reaction in the alloy joins to HG.
The K also introduced a new cast technique, but wasn't really refined in the BMW era, added to which it is a very lightweight engine, there can be scope for minor distortion (not helped by the long clamping bolts).
So the engine has its flaws, that should have been refined out, but BMW were not prepared to put any R&D money into Rover beyond the ill fated 75 (which BMW knobbled to protect Series 3 sales), the R30 which becames the 1 series, and of course the mini.
But the people who worked on the engine, and those that are rebuilding, do say in most cases, something else happened that caused the higher temps, which causes the HG to fail. With the HG being a symptom.
Particulary bad are the VHP ones and the ones in MGFs, potentially due to distance between rad and engine - the engine should have been reworked for rear engined applications
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which genius thought the red rubber rib on the gasket would stop coolant trickling down the front of the engine.
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Now, the K was one of the first all alloy engines for mass produced cars. ....
not quite the same volumes as a Rover, but Reliant used an all alloy engine for the Regal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliant_Regal) in the 60's :y :y
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....
Now, the K was one of the first all alloy engines for mass produced cars. ....
not quite the same volumes as a Rover, but Reliant used an all alloy engine for the Regal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliant_Regal) in the 60's :y :y
hillman imp as well,although they had there own set of cooling issues :y
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....
Now, the K was one of the first all alloy engines for mass produced cars. ....
not quite the same volumes as a Rover, but Reliant used an all alloy engine for the Regal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliant_Regal) in the 60's :y :y
hillman imp as well,although they had there own set of cooling issues :y
Which often ended in HGs letting go...
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....
Now, the K was one of the first all alloy engines for mass produced cars. ....
not quite the same volumes as a Rover, but Reliant used an all alloy engine for the Regal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliant_Regal) in the 60's :y :y
hillman imp as well,although they had there own set of cooling issues :y
Which often ended in HGs letting go...
So ... the thread has gone full circle then. When are you taking the head of your K series? ;) ;) ;)
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Rover V8 was all alloy and its first guise, the Buick 215 hit a production run of 750000 units! (thats more in 3 years than Rover produced of its version in its ENTIRE production 40 year run!).
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Hillman Imp HGs - changed a few of those in my time.
But while they probably were a weak area it wasn't helped by the water pump leaks leading to top ups with water and hence dilution of anti freeze/inhibitor. From there it's a short step to the rad etc coating up with deposits and massive reduction in cooling efficiency.
And then the HG would go - and normally keep on going...
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Opps, forgot to round this thread off.
Full marks to MDTM, it was indeed the inlet gasket.
To everyone else, don't be suckered in to the K Series = HG failure myth. Thats like saying V6 cam covers warp ;)
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Rover V8 was all alloy and its first guise, the Buick 215 hit a production run of 750000 units! (thats more in 3 years than Rover produced of its version in its ENTIRE production 40 year run!).
Wasnt the Buick version cast iron though ? :-/
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There is a very insightful article on a website written a few years back about the K which argues a lot of common misconceptions very well and is deffo worth a read for any F or Elise owner. Have a look here (http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html)
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Rover V8 was all alloy and its first guise, the Buick 215 hit a production run of 750000 units! (thats more in 3 years than Rover produced of its version in its ENTIRE production 40 year run!).
Wasnt the Buick version cast iron though ? :-/
It was alloy. It was discarded due to the Americans starting to use thinwall casting techniques that reduced their dry weight, which meant they shed a few pounds and cost less to make than an alloy version. Oh, and they had a great time with coolant problems on them too. Ironic eh?
Anyway, other all-alloy engines off the top of my head include Jag V12, Coventry Climax FWE, Daimler V8 and one I can't remember now!