Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: geoffr70 on 01 October 2010, 22:53:22
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Hello, as mentioned in previous posts my mate works for Audi delivering cars all over, occassionally I go with him.
Today was an A8 to Glasgow.
Anyway, as you may or may not know, some have electronic handbrakes, on the centre console where the H/B would usually be. It is an up down button (like electric window button), so up for on, down for off.
There is a safety feature where you have to depress the foot brake then take off the handbrake, presumably to stop naughty little Johnny form taking it off.
My question is, unless you have three feet, how do get the bite on the clutch, before taking the h/b off, as your foot is taken up by pressing the foot brake? This of course would be compounded when doing an uphill start. Surely balancing the car on the clutch alone with no revs can't be the answer?
Also, going back to old driving methods that I doubt many people will even know of now, if the h/b is electronic I presume it's either on or off with no inbetween, therefore if you have a brake fail you can't use the h/b to reduce speed, as you would with a cabled h/b?
Just curious, as when I drive a manual at least, I like to use the h/b like day 1 week 1. Surely a learner taking a test in a vehicle with an electronic h/b would fail their test for not having the vehicle under control due to rolling back or not having either any brake applied or drive to the vehicle?
Thanks
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BTW call me a geek if you want!
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These electronic handbrakes will self release when you push the throttle.
They also stop you from rolling backwards. They should auto engage as the car starts to creep back when stationary on a hill.
I just want to know how they are going to pass an MOT.
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
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These electronic handbrakes will self release when you push the throttle.
They also stop you from rolling backwards. They should auto engage as the car starts to creep back when stationary on a hill.
I just want to know how they are going to pass an MOT.
Yep, My Citroen works like that..... :) :)
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
Exactly. The Handbrake, or Parking Brake is actually an Emergency Brake. It's efficiency has to be 16% of the weight of the vehicle to pass the MOT.
These Electronic jobbies, you cant engage them when the car is in motion, so they would be 0% of the mass of the vehicle, even though they might be amazing once the vehicle has stopped.
I just dont see how they will pass an MOT.
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
Exactly. The Handbrake, or Parking Brake is actually an Emergency Brake. It's efficiency has to be 16% of the weight of the vehicle to pass the MOT.
These Electronic jobbies, you cant engage them when the car is in motion, so they would be 0% of the mass of the vehicle, even though they might be amazing once the vehicle has stopped.
I just dont see how they will pass an MOT.
Oh yeah thanks! I knew that just didn't relate the two! Prefer "normal" handbrakes anyway!
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
Exactly. The Handbrake, or Parking Brake is actually an Emergency Brake. It's efficiency has to be 16% of the weight of the vehicle to pass the MOT.
These Electronic jobbies, you cant engage them when the car is in motion, so they would be 0% of the mass of the vehicle, even though they might be amazing once the vehicle has stopped.
I just dont see how they will pass an MOT.
Oh yeah thanks! I knew that just didn't relate the two! Prefer "normal" handbrakes anyway!
The car I have spent most time in with one of these stupid things, is a Citroen C4 Picasso. It stopped the car from rolling on a hill, it held the vehicle when stopped no bother.
It would switch itself off if you 'forgot' even when you applied it manually, in a car-park say.
But you could hit the massive button on the dash when driving, and it wouldn't engage.
The RR test for the MOT has the car on the rollers moving then the handbrake is applied to show efficiency. I just dont see how this is possible, unless there is already an amendment to the Handbrake section of the MOT procedure for these vehicles fitted with a computer to control the Emergency Brake.
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What if the electronic handbrake controller monitors only the speed of the front wheels to determine vehicle motion; if that were the case it would think the vehicle were 'stopped' when on the rollers?
Still wouldn't be any good on the actual road, mind!
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I really don't understand what's wrong with a couple of feet of cable and a lever, myself. :-/
Either they are trying to dumb down driving to the point that you don't even have to remember to take the handbrake off when moving away or it's a couple of pence cheaper than a mechanical one.
Either way - not for me, I'm afraid.
Kevin
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I really don't understand what's wrong with a couple of feet of cable and a lever, myself. :-/
Either they are trying to dumb down driving to the point that you don't even have to remember to take the handbrake off when moving away or it's a couple of pence cheaper than a mechanical one.
Either way - not for me, I'm afraid.
Kevin
I completely agree.
Since driving an Auto, I have used the handbrake once, and that was when I replaced the Handbrake shoes.
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I really don't understand what's wrong with a couple of feet of cable and a lever, myself. :-/
Either they are trying to dumb down driving to the point that you don't even have to remember to take the handbrake off when moving away or it's a couple of pence cheaper than a mechanical one.
Either way - not for me, I'm afraid.
Kevin
It has to be that, surely - I can't imagine how it could possibly be cheaper than (as you rightly say) a couple of feet of cable and a lever..
I guess the dumbing down of driving has become necessary - lets face it, an alarming number of people don't seem to be able to steer properly, keep an appropriate speed or drive in the rain without hitting things, so....
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I completely agree.
Since driving an Auto, I have used the handbrake once, and that was when I replaced the Handbrake shoes.
Oh, I use mine. A little peg in the gearbox output shaft is not something I want to rely on. Besides, if you don't use them they don't work come MOT time.
I like a car that has a couple of controls that aren't interfered with. A switch that cuts power to the ignition coils, a brake that has a mechanical connection to the friction material and a gearbox that can be slipped into neutral by a linkage. Not too much to ask, surely? It is if you are buying new these days.
I've had a few "stuck throttle" moments so without the above a car isn't something I'd want to drive.
Kevin
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I really don't understand what's wrong with a couple of feet of cable and a lever, myself. :-/
Either they are trying to dumb down driving to the point that you don't even have to remember to take the handbrake off when moving away or it's a couple of pence cheaper than a mechanical one.
Either way - not for me, I'm afraid.
Kevin
It has to be that, surely - I can't imagine how it could possibly be cheaper than (as you rightly say) a couple of feet of cable and a lever..
I guess the dumbing down of driving has become necessary - lets face it, an alarming number of people don't seem to be able to steer properly, keep an appropriate speed or drive in the rain without hitting things, so....
It's a gimmick. It makes people think that the company is moving into the future. Fair enough, it does have it's merits...... you dont have to pull a handle when you switch the engine off, it does it for you. WHOOPIE!
When I stick my car in 'Park' the handbrake is set, as far as I'm concerned. My car doesnt roll back on hills as my foot is on the brake.
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If this is the future then where is my flying car!
(Sorry.. couldn't resist that almost obligatory reference :))
Still, probably right.. it's the "ooh flashing lighs!" effect..
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I completely agree.
Since driving an Auto, I have used the handbrake once, and that was when I replaced the Handbrake shoes.
Oh, I use mine. A little peg in the gearbox output shaft is not something I want to rely on. Besides, if you don't use them they don't work come MOT time.
Kevin
I'll wager a tenner that the little 5mm peg is stronger than the handbrake cable :y I appreciate you use both, so fair enough. I've spent enough time in the States to know that nobody even knows what the handbrake lever does. Driving manuals, I leave the car in gear, I dont bother with the handbrake.
I'm sure a certain someone will come along soon and ask me if my Insurance Company is aware I do this ;D
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
Exactly. The Handbrake, or Parking Brake is actually an Emergency Brake. It's efficiency has to be 16% of the weight of the vehicle to pass the MOT.
These Electronic jobbies, you cant engage them when the car is in motion, so they would be 0% of the mass of the vehicle, even though they might be amazing once the vehicle has stopped.
I just dont see how they will pass an MOT.
Oh yeah thanks! I knew that just didn't relate the two! Prefer "normal" handbrakes anyway!
The car I have spent most time in with one of these stupid things, is a Citroen C4 Picasso. It stopped the car from rolling on a hill, it held the vehicle when stopped no bother.
It would switch itself off if you 'forgot' even when you applied it manually, in a car-park say.
But you could hit the massive button on the dash when driving, and it wouldn't engage.
The RR test for the MOT has the car on the rollers moving then the handbrake is applied to show efficiency. I just dont see how this is possible, unless there is already an amendment to the Handbrake section of the MOT procedure for these vehicles fitted with a computer to control the Emergency Brake.
I have a Citroen Picasso (yes still ::) ::)) and from what I remember you can use the handbrake when moving, I frequently do at very low speed, but the manual warns against, at speed unless in an emergency situation, I seem to think it is a 'one off' situation than needs something reset....I may be wrong...... :-/ :-/
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Thanks BM, not being funny, just ignorant, but why would they not pass an MOT?
You still can't use them for reducing speed though if your brakes fail.
Exactly. The Handbrake, or Parking Brake is actually an Emergency Brake. It's efficiency has to be 16% of the weight of the vehicle to pass the MOT.
These Electronic jobbies, you cant engage them when the car is in motion, so they would be 0% of the mass of the vehicle, even though they might be amazing once the vehicle has stopped.
I just dont see how they will pass an MOT.
I don't know the answer BM but im pretty certain Audi would have thought of that, bit of a piss take selling you an 80K car that has a three year life span ;)
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My 07 Citroen recently pased it's MOT so they must be OK... :)
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An after thought, I do not really like the electronic handbrake, not sure what would happen with a total electrical failure..... :-/ HGV/PSV break failure puts the brakes on...
Also, on our Omega's we always use the hand brake, I put the hand break on before puttining it in Park. The hand brake needs to be used..... :)
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Still doesnt sound as daft as the Mercedes parking brake. Its a footpedal at the side of the transmission tunnel, operated by the left foot to engage. And a lever on the right side of the dash to disengage. Not too bad on an auto, but too use it for hill starts in a manual would be a pita.
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Still doesnt sound as daft as the Mercedes parking brake. Its a footpedal at the side of the transmission tunnel, operated by the left foot to engage. And a lever on the right side of the dash to disengage. Not too bad on an auto, but too use it for hill starts in a manual would be a pita.
yep.. the first time I have to drive a mercedes , really I searched for it.. totally crap.. any newbie driver on a hill will go into trouble ..
and electronic handbrake .. shite.. >:(
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Removes all the fun in the snow.
Cant see the point myself.
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Absolutely. :y :)
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Electronic handbrake, like lane changing indicators, are a PITA at first. Then you end up getting used to them. Then you miss them when you don't have them ;D
I too wonder about MOT - like HIDs, there is probably no real UK legislation, so as long as the car passes the (more stringent) tests for new cars, I guess it is logged as such when MOT done? Most trucks use them, and pass MOTs. I'd like to think their annual checks are more thorough...
Would be nice to have it as an emergency slowing down device, but lets face it, the standard Omega handbrake is piss poor anyway. Electronic brakes also stop 'boys being childish little boys', but such stunts are only really controllable in smaller cars anyway.
Would I want one on my car? Yes and no ;D. Definately wouldn't want one on the Rover, that would spoil my childish behaviour. Omega? Probably wouldn't bother me too much either way - the laziness V proper manual control....
BM - use your handbrake. Its hard enough getting it through MOTs when its not seized ;D. Sounds like, as you can't be bothered to use it, an electronic one would be ideal for you ;)
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GAAAAASH, WHEN when they first came out on the Jags, we used to drive in to browns lane, load the transporters with 8 cars, take them down to southampton or purfleet,
turns out the electronic handbrakes were letting go and switching off due to the trailer bumping around, when we got back in to unload the cars all of the handbrakes were off,
and all the cars had small damage front and rear where thay had been moving against each other , but the worst thing was when you unhooked all the straps from the cars on the top deck, lowered the top deck, jumped into the frst car and ran it off the deck you got follwed by the other three cos the handbrakes were not on!!!! you soon learnt to leave one strap on them!!! lol
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GAAAAASH, WHEN when they first came out on the Jags, we used to drive in to browns lane, load the transporters with 8 cars, take them down to southampton or purfleet,
turns out the electronic handbrakes were letting go and switching off due to the trailer bumping around, when we got back in to unload the cars all of the handbrakes were off,
and all the cars had small damage front and rear where thay had been moving against each other , but the worst thing was when you unhooked all the straps from the cars on the top deck, lowered the top deck, jumped into the frst car and ran it off the deck you got follwed by the other three cos the handbrakes were not on!!!! you soon learnt to leave one strap on them!!! lol
:-? :o :o :-/
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I too wonder about MOT - like HIDs, there is probably no real UK legislation, so as long as the car passes the (more stringent) tests for new cars, I guess it is logged as such when MOT done? Most trucks use them, and pass MOTs. I'd like to think their annual checks are more thorough...
Well, I'm sure the UK C&U regs specify the vehicle has to have a secondary braking system that is mechanically actuated. Maybe there is an allowance for these devices these days. I'd hesitate to call them a braking system if you can't use them to slow the vehicle down, though.
Problem is, these days, a product gets EU approval and we rubber stamp it. For our authorities to then stick their necks out and decide it's not up to UK standards, and ban it, is difficult because they'll get lent on very hard by the department of bull5hit,interference business, innovation and skills for acting as a "barrier to free trade". >:(
Or at least this is exactly how it it is with sh1te electronic goods that radio amateurs have tried to get banned. (£15 computer PSUs without any mains filtering, power line adaptors that fail conducted emissions limits by 40db, etc.).
Kevin
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a few things here....
firstly, I'm absolutely NOT going to mention insurance companies.
secondly, I can probably answer the legality thing, but not until I'm back at work again. I suspect the answer lies in the classification of exactly what is the main brake and what is the secondary brake.
thirdly, it is a cost thing. The manufacturer will have a relatively advanced ABS system, doubling as Traction Control and stability control. One of the routines will be to apply the brakes to a spinning wheel to regain traction. The cost of another switch is much more attractive to the manufacturer than some special brake calipers, the levers and cable. Probably about 20p vs £10, which is a really big thing in car-manufacturer land. I know one company where the suggestions scheme will send anyone who reduces the cost of a car by more than £1 on a holiday in the Bahamas.
fourthly, yes this is all far too complex for me. Too many toys ;)
and fifth, doesn't the traction control on the later Omegas brake a spinning wheel. Maybe it could be possible on Omega then? Bet my insurance company wouldn't agree.
Bummer !
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An after thought, I do not really like the electronic handbrake, not sure what would happen with a total electrical failure..... :-/ HGV/PSV break failure puts the brakes on...
Also, on our Omega's we always use the hand brake, I put the hand break on before puttining it in Park. The hand brake needs to be used..... :)
But at least on these you would get a warning of low air, and unless you had an immediate failure of both air tanks (unlikely), the brakes wouldn't come on instantly
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An after thought, I do not really like the electronic handbrake, not sure what would happen with a total electrical failure..... :-/ HGV/PSV break failure puts the brakes on...
Also, on our Omega's we always use the hand brake, I put the hand break on before puttining it in Park. The hand brake needs to be used..... :)
agreed. hgv brakes work on the principle of air to operate the primary braking system and air depletion to operate secondary/parking brake actuation.
hydraulic brakes can, by there properties of water absorbsion fail and should have a secondary braking system available, if i have read posts correctly..
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i really dont like the idea of a electric hand break!
Americans got something right for once calling it an e-break or emergency break, because its is a good old cable backup should hydraulics fail!
my friends passat had his electric hand break jam on 3 weeks ago, cost him £800 to fix! :o for that price ill stick with my old fashioned hand break thanks! ::)
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thirdly, it is a cost thing. The manufacturer will have a relatively advanced ABS system, doubling as Traction Control and stability control. One of the routines will be to apply the brakes to a spinning wheel to regain traction. The cost of another switch is much more attractive to the manufacturer than some special brake calipers, the levers and cable. Probably about 20p vs £10, which is a really big thing in car-manufacturer land. I know one company where the suggestions scheme will send anyone who reduces the cost of a car by more than £1 on a holiday in the Bahamas.
So they're hydraulic? :o Never looked into how they work but I didn't imagine for a minute that it would be a hydraulic setup pumped up by the ABS modulator. I assumed at least a motor at the caliper winding on a mechanical brake mechanism.
I can see why they don't hold well now, and I want one even less.
The argument as to whether a hydraulic handbrake is legal has been done to death in kit car circles. Anyone I'm aware of who has tested the concept with the powers that be have received an unequivocal "no".
Kevin
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The electronic hand brakes most certainly work whilst in motion. Going back to the question if they could be used in a brake failure, yes they can.
I saw a video on youtube last week where an Audi TT RS was bombing round a track and his brakes suddenly failed, he quickly applied the electronic brake at 220km/h (!) which sent his car into a spin and managed to stop without involving anyone else coming out without a scratch. Potentially saved his life.
I'll see if I can find the video.
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Seems the youtube video was removed by the user.
But the video has been reuploaded by someone else here:
http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi-crash_2063815.htm
Skip to 10 mins in to see the application of the electronic handbrake.
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An after thought, I do not really like the electronic handbrake, not sure what would happen with a total electrical failure..... :-/ HGV/PSV break failure puts the brakes on...
Also, on our Omega's we always use the hand brake, I put the hand break on before puttining it in Park. The hand brake needs to be used..... :)
But at least on these you would get a warning of low air, and unless you had an immediate failure of both air tanks (unlikely), the brakes wouldn't come on instantly
Even with immediate failure of both air tanks the brakes would come on... The air tanks hold the brakes off, if there is no air the brakes slam on... I would have thought with electronic handbrakes, a solonoid would be held open while the hand brake is off... When HB is on it would effectively close the solonoid (It would take the mickey if the battery died and so would the handbrake when parked on a hill)...
I personally would prefer a mechanical device that I can rely on should I need it...
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Done some investigation on this........(cos I'm interested.....)
there appears to be three ways these electronic handbrakes are activated,
1) electronic activation via ECU pressurising ABS (AUDI VW SKODA)
2)solenoid activating remote "slave" type cylinder in the braking system plumbing, but only on the rear wheels (MERCEDES)
3)remote hydraulic actuator, pressurising ALL 4 wheels, but not activatable whilst vehicle is in motion (FIAT)
there is a dispensation within the MOT test to test them, tested by activation of "parking brake" then trying to turm wheels via rollers to calculate efficiency. My local MOT tester hates them, and says in his opinion they are dangerous, because they (whatever type employed) CANNOT be progressively applied to slow the car in event of brake fail, and because some of them are hydraulically assisted, will not work on a brake fluid leak situation.
I'm sure someone will shout me down here, but it seems to me, that in principle its ok, but practically, its not ideal, and takes some of the "user input" out of driving a car, let alone the fact it can stop me doing drifting and handbrake turns!!
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Hmm. Relying on hydraulic seals top stop your car rolling away is like working under it with a hydraulic jack as the only means of support IMHO.
The slightest weep from one of the slave cylinders (or even cooling of the brake components following a spirited drive and contraction of the calipers, disks, pads and fluid) and the pressure will be gone. :o
Kevin
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I had no doubt that they were legal, it's just how that was in doubt. BUT OOF members have come to the rescue - well at least I think so anyway.
I have to give this sort of advice every day as part of my job, so I'm keen to keep abrest of these things.
..... and whilst the kit-car people may have asked for advice, that doesn't mean that the advice they've been getting is right or legal - just look at the "official" advice about retrofitting HiD
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I had no doubt that they were legal, it's just how that was in doubt. BUT OOF members have come to the rescue - well at least I think so anyway.
I have to give this sort of advice every day as part of my job, so I'm keen to keep abrest of these things.
..... and whilst the kit-car people may have asked for advice, that doesn't mean that the advice they've been getting is right or legal - just look at the "official" advice about retrofitting HiD
Agreed. There's misinformation all over the place, of course. I've never dug deeper than the SVA/IVA manual, which I appreciate isn't the definitive bible on all things on the road but tends to dictate how kit cars are built.
I do remember that it specifies that the parking brake must be operated using a control independent of the service brake and, once applied, must be maintained on by purely mechanical means.
I thought that was the showstopper for a hydraulic handbrake?
I notice there's also a proviso that the secondary braking system can be fulfilled by one half of a split circuit service brake, so the parking brake is no longer regarded as an emergency brake and presumably it doesn't matter if it can be applied progressively enough to control the vehicle.
Kevin
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ABSOLUTELY.
You've hit on it, MECHANICALLY operated and supplimentary.
Whilst hydraulic handbrakes have been used for years in rally cars, etc etc very few road card have had this facility. The ability to slow down a car using the handbrake in event of normal braking fail has been mandatory, so handbrakes that do not have this facility must be by definition unsatisfactory, and if they CANNOT be progressively applied to independantly slow the car illegal???
I'm also assuming that in event of an electrical fail or lossof total power, the handbrakes don't work, or release on "failsafe"??
Doesn't seem very safe to me.
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On the new Astra J and the Insignia the electric hand brake still have cables going to the rear wheels.
What happens is the switch on the console works a servo that puls the cable
Andy
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that Astra J solution seems like the worst of both worlds to me.
remember Kevin that the SVA / IVA manual isn't the definitive guide for what's allowed on the road, it's just what must be fitted to new kit-cars.
the key will be in Construction & Use vs. the MOT testers manual.
anyway, I'm on holiday now until Friday - have just spent the entire weekend going through 285,000,000,000 vibration readings looking for trends. need oxygen
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I've had a chat to a friendly MOT man .. and he informs me that the latest 2010 revisions to the MOT test manual have a new section on electronic braking devices.
The only on-line reference he was able to give me I've eventualy found ..
http://www.motester.co.uk/TradeMagazines/MOTTestingMagazine/2010MOTInspectionManualChanges.aspx
and the only mention is right near the end ,...
In the Brake performance section on page 3, there is the addition of a note regarding Electronic Parking Brake and to refer to VSI for instructions, there is also a note to use MOI 8 for the testing of prop-shaft parking brakes, and notes that apply to Class 5 and large Class 4 vehicles where an applied brake test may be required.
Can't find much more I'm afraid ... and I don't have access to the manual .. :(
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On the new Astra J and the Insignia the electric hand brake still have cables going to the rear wheels.
What happens is the switch on the console works a servo that puls the cable
Andy
The reason for that is because the Insignia is sold with either a normal lever handbrake or the electronic push button one!!!
Obviously cost isn't the reason car makers are doing it otherwise why would both be available.
Oh and for reference i had two hire car Insignias last year, both '58 plate' 1.8 VVT 6 speed manual, one an SE spec with electronic handbrake one an S spec with a nomal lever