Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 18:10:40

Title: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 18:10:40
Not Omega, but Rover.

She was driving home last night (dark), had a short burst of fanbelt squel, followed by battery light and ABS light coming on. Battery light extinguished almost straight away, ABS light extinguished 'some time later'.

Upon checking at lunchtime today, voltage across battery:

Engine off: >12.6v
Idle: 11.5v
2000 rpm: 11.5v


Ign on (engine off), no battery light.
0 ohms between alternator body and batt 0v
0 ohms between alternator main cable and batt 12v
12v at the small wire from battery light on dash where it meets alternator (alternator unplugged), with ign on.
shorting that small wire to 0v brings on battery light.


I think thats conclusive?


Is it worth just getting new 'electronics', a refurb kit, or new alternator? Or just get one from scrappy?


(By electronics, I mean rectifier and regulator. Or are they a single module?)
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: henryd on 11 October 2010, 18:13:45
you could probably get one off a scrapper for a few quid or a recon one from a factor
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 October 2010, 18:20:25
my experience says get it refurbed..(if prices are reasonable)

second hands are untrustable, new is expensive..

also the wiring from alternator to battery may be in badcondition .. also the chasis connection needs checking imo..
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 October 2010, 18:27:22
also check the voltages when ac and lights are on ..
must be at least 12.7v.. :y
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 18:28:57
Quote
my experience says get it refurbed..(if prices are reasonable)

second hands are untrustable, new is expensive..

also the wiring from alternator to battery may be in badcondition .. also the chasis connection needs checking imo..
Admittedly a DVM isn't ideal for testing this, but 0 ohms on both 0v and 12v would go a long way to ruling out bad earth or 12v connections?
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 October 2010, 18:36:29
Quote
Quote
my experience says get it refurbed..(if prices are reasonable)

second hands are untrustable, new is expensive..

also the wiring from alternator to battery may be in badcondition .. also the chasis connection needs checking imo..
Admittedly a DVM isn't ideal for testing this, but 0 ohms on both 0v and 12v would go a long way to ruling out bad earth or 12v connections?

I look for the result.. if voltage drops below 12.7 when ac and lights on , charging is not adequate ..
this summer I spend 2-3 days with clit.. even with new alternator voltage was below 12.7.. and we connected an extra cable from alternator to battery.. also battery clamps must be renewed.. :y

now without any load its 13.2 (idle) and with full load 12.8 volts (lights are xenon)..
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 October 2010, 18:43:02
also some sites states that re-charging voltage must be measured at 2500 rpm .. (which is more logical then measuring at idle) but mine are idle values..
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Kevin Wood on 11 October 2010, 18:46:32
Sounds like a rectifier went, it all shorted out through the others briefly (hence the slipping fan belt) and then the rest let go.

New rectifier and regulator / brush pack or refurb exchange alternator depending on price and availability, I reckon.

Kevin
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 18:46:37
Quote
also some sites states that re-charging voltage must be measured at 2500 rpm .. (which is more logical then measuring at idle) but mine are idle values..
I probablt did hovver up to 4k as I was trying to hold leads on batt, and rev it ;D
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 18:47:54
Quote
Sounds like a rectifier went, it all shorted out through the others briefly (hence the slipping fan belt) and then the rest let go.

New rectifier and regulator / brush pack or refurb exchange alternator depending on price and availability, I reckon.

Kevin
Thought the gay of E would give an idea of price, but other than new alternators, no joy for rover 25 k series 1.6....
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 October 2010, 18:57:32
Quote
Quote
also some sites states that re-charging voltage must be measured at 2500 rpm .. (which is more logical then measuring at idle) but mine are idle values..
I probablt did hovver up to 4k as I was trying to hold leads on batt, and rev it ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Kevin Wood on 11 October 2010, 19:25:50
Might be worth taking it off and making a quick check that the windings haven't been blackened before deciding a course of action.

Kevin
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2010, 19:33:08
Quote
Might be worth taking it off and making a quick check that the windings haven't been blackened before deciding a course of action.

Kevin
Yeah, thats what I was trying to avoid - I wanted all bits so I could take it off, fix it, and pop it back on.

Guess if I shuffle the cars on the driveway, so Rover is near the garage, it can stay off for a while :y
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: tidla on 11 October 2010, 23:07:04
connect the main red lead from the alternator to the body of the alternator and leave for an hour...
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 12 October 2010, 07:58:26
Quote
Quote
Might be worth taking it off and making a quick check that the windings haven't been blackened before deciding a course of action.

Kevin
Yeah, thats what I was trying to avoid - I wanted all bits so I could take it off, fix it, and pop it back on.

Guess if I shuffle the cars on the driveway, so Rover is near the garage, it can stay off for a while :y

Its got to come off anyway as you need to get the numbers off it.

Rover had a habit of using more than one type of alternator and chopped and changed the supplier quite regularly.

If its a refurb approach then you need bearings, brushs, reg and rec
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 12 October 2010, 08:00:51
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=rover+1.6+alternator&_sacat=See-All-Categories

They look like Bosch open frame units, smaller versions of Omega ones
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Elite Pete on 12 October 2010, 08:17:16
There's always this bloke Jaime, he bought up most of the Rover stock when it it belly up.

http://www.roverbreakers.com/contact.htm
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2010, 18:25:43
Quote
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=rover+1.6+alternator&_sacat=See-All-Categories

They look like Bosch open frame units, smaller versions of Omega ones
Correct, Bosch.

(http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/rover/AlternatorPartNo.jpg)


Do you reckon I'll get away with just replacing whatever is faulty, as the only prices I have found for bearings, rectifiers and regulators isn't good - around £100 :o


I've got her on a mission to, err, 'acquire' a new one, but may take a few weeks, assuming that she even can.
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Debs. on 12 October 2010, 18:38:59
Seeing as (technically) it`s a British car; you might like to avail yourself of one if these.......

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

....one replaced; you`ll be all set for the next Genie release! ;D
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2010, 18:48:58
Quote
Seeing as (technically) it`s a British car; you might like to avail yourself of one if these.......

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

....one replaced; you`ll be all set for the next Genie release! ;D
Fortunately, not too much Lucas on this one, beyond the (broken) clock ;D
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: aaronjb on 12 October 2010, 19:21:46
Quote
Seeing as (technically) it`s a British car; you might like to avail yourself of one if these.......

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

....one replaced; you`ll be all set for the next Genie release! ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I love that!

Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Kevin Wood on 12 October 2010, 19:46:26
Quote
Quote
Seeing as (technically) it`s a British car; you might like to avail yourself of one if these.......

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

....one replaced; you`ll be all set for the next Genie release! ;D
Fortunately, not too much Lucas on this one, beyond the (broken) clock ;D

The (broken) wiper motor on my Westfield is Lucas. ::)

Kevin
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 13 October 2010, 15:45:16
Quote
Quote
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=rover+1.6+alternator&_sacat=See-All-Categories

They look like Bosch open frame units, smaller versions of Omega ones
Correct, Bosch.

(http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/rover/AlternatorPartNo.jpg)


Do you reckon I'll get away with just replacing whatever is faulty, as the only prices I have found for bearings, rectifiers and regulators isn't good - around £100 :o


I've got her on a mission to, err, 'acquire' a new one, but may take a few weeks, assuming that she even can.
Anyone know of a rectifier and regulator supplier for this?
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 October 2010, 19:29:54
You need the numbers off the reg and rec (its very rare for the rec to go on the Bosch units).

Bearings will be run of the mill items available from simply bearings.

I use this guy for the electronic bits:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BOSCH-ALTERNATOR-12V-REGULATOR-ROVER-VW-VOLVO-1003-/300280677173?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45ea1f8335

Obviously the rec can easily be tested with a DVM
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 13 October 2010, 19:33:47
Quote
You need the numbers off the reg and rec (its very rare for the rec to go on the Bosch units).

Bearings will be run of the mill items available from simply bearings.

I use this guy for the electronic bits:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BOSCH-ALTERNATOR-12V-REGULATOR-ROVER-VW-VOLVO-1003-/300280677173?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45ea1f8335

Obviously the rec can easily be tested with a DVM
Is it fair to say that if the rectifier measures as you would expect it to that it will be the regulator?

Seeing as she is in the process of seeing what she can acquire, is it essential to do bearings? Sound quite when spinning it....
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 October 2010, 19:36:03
Quote
Quote
You need the numbers off the reg and rec (its very rare for the rec to go on the Bosch units).

Bearings will be run of the mill items available from simply bearings.

I use this guy for the electronic bits:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BOSCH-ALTERNATOR-12V-REGULATOR-ROVER-VW-VOLVO-1003-/300280677173?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45ea1f8335

Obviously the rec can easily be tested with a DVM
Is it fair to say that if the rectifier measures as you would expect it to that it will be the regulator?

Seeing as she is in the process of seeing what she can acquire, is it essential to do bearings? Sound quite when spinning it....

I always do the bearings as its only about a tenner to do and means you ahev the equivalent of a new alternator
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 13 October 2010, 19:39:26
Though given the regulator is £40, should I:

Just change reg, and wait to see what she can get
Fully refurb it (looks to be around £80-£90)
Get cheap chinese one (around £80)
One from scrappy (guessing £10-£20)
Buy a genuine one thats been refurbed (£100)
Buy a genuine one (guessing thats expensive)
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 13 October 2010, 19:40:45
Quote
Quote
Quote
You need the numbers off the reg and rec (its very rare for the rec to go on the Bosch units).

Bearings will be run of the mill items available from simply bearings.

I use this guy for the electronic bits:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BOSCH-ALTERNATOR-12V-REGULATOR-ROVER-VW-VOLVO-1003-/300280677173?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45ea1f8335

Obviously the rec can easily be tested with a DVM
Is it fair to say that if the rectifier measures as you would expect it to that it will be the regulator?

Seeing as she is in the process of seeing what she can acquire, is it essential to do bearings? Sound quite when spinning it....

I always do the bearings as its only about a tenner to do and means you ahev the equivalent of a new alternator
Yeah, guess so, it was the splitting it that was scaring me ;D

What about brushes? Surely they much wear?
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 October 2010, 19:53:10
The brushes hardly wear as they run on slip rings and not a com
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: TheBoy on 18 October 2010, 08:58:25
Due to time constraints (like never seeming to have any spare  :'(), and the fact that the MV6 is unhappy at the front end, and that needs further investigation, I have taken the easy way out  :-[

On Saturday, I needed a selection of bolts and fuses, so went down the scrappy and bought a £20 alternator.  Problem solved for now.

A question, probably for MDTM, is it worth me getting another 2nd hand one, and using the electronics to fix her old one (obviously use brand new bearings though), or does the regulator 'degrade' over time on these?  (This is assuming she has no luck 'borrowing' one from work ::))
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 18 October 2010, 09:43:01
regulators , bearings and coals (sorry direct translation :-[)  fail with time .. :-/
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: Andy B on 18 October 2010, 10:19:24
Quote
.... and coals (sorry direct translation :-[)   ....

motor brushes  :-/  :-/  :-/  :y
(http://images.drillspot.com/pimages/2485/248557_300.jpg)
Title: Re: Alternator Help
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 18 October 2010, 10:28:11
Quote
Quote
.... and coals (sorry direct translation :-[)   ....

motor brushes  :-/  :-/  :-/  :y
(http://images.drillspot.com/pimages/2485/248557_300.jpg)

thanks ..  :y

interesting difference ..if you shop here translating motor brushes they look like that :-?     ;D :y