Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: G-MANN on 13 November 2010, 13:19:26
-
I've noticed, when talking about the Omega, people mention RWD as a plus point, because it can be "lairy" or "fun". But I mean how many people actually drift their cars, especially if they're driving something like a big old Omega, I mean aren't they either a) talking b****cks or b) being dickhead boy racers?
I've drive a 2.5 V6 auto estate, surely turning the traction control off and putting my foot down while making a turn or going round a roundabout wouldn't be a very good idea due it's hefty weight, wallowy suspension and the chance breaking/damaging/doing no good to it? My Omega is getting quite old (1996) but by now most of them are old cars anyway. Admittedly I've never done any advanced driver training or been to a track day but most of the times roads are so busy and there's so many things to crash into and police/camera about it just doesn't seem worth it. The Omega isn't a sporty car anyway. Or am I just being too cautious?
-
Vrtually all the time I drive like a grandad. However on that odd occasion coming home from work late at night when the roads are wet I go round 2 large roundabouts. I swtch off TC on approach and have a little bit of sideways fun. I would not do ths with other road users about, and I don't do it particularly quickly. Just a bit extra throttle and a bit of opposite lock.
I don't speed and even on motorways I sit at 65mph with the cruise control on.
Give it a try, safely of course. You may just enjoy it. But please consinder other road users first.
I have never damaged my car doing it, but if I do one day then t is up to me to fix it.
-
RWD 'fun' can be had every day, one of the main benefits over FWD shit boxes is turning circle, RWD cars have a much better turning circle as there is no drive gubbins around front wheels, ride is softer too and handling is more balanced. Which can mean toe down in twists with comfort.
Even when its just light rain/damp, its quite easy to get the back end sliding a bit on round-abouts :)
-
RWD 'fun' can be had every day, one of the main benefits over FWD shit boxes is turning circle, RWD cars have a much better turning circle as there is no drive gubbins around front wheels, ride is softer too and handling is more balanced. Which can mean toe down in twists with comfort.
Even when its just light rain/damp, its quite easy to get the back end sliding a bit on round-abouts :)
You should mention that to Nissan ;D the front arches are so narrow on the ZX (to fit the engine in!) that it has a turning circle of about three weeks.. ;D
-
i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit :y
-
Personally I dont see much point in driving a big lumbering barge like an Omega sideways - steering it on the throttle etc,
just for the fun of it. Its worth doing on occasions though (on a private road of course ;))so that if you do lose the back end for some reason, you will know what to expect and how to react to it.
-
RWD cars aren't about "fun" though, TBH.
It's the handling and comfort long before you get to the point of loss of control.
Generally the weight distribution is better whereas FWD cars have everything at the front end.
Comfort is better because you're not sitting side-on to the engine, gearbox and driveshafts so much less noise and vibration and longer footwells.
During cornering you have one pair of wheels driving the car forwards and one pair providing the cornering force so you can balance the car on the power and you have a higher level of grip because you're not asking the front wheels to do both tasks - you're utilising the traction available at both ends of the car.
The pathetic understeery, scrabbling feeling that FWD cars have when driven hard is about as satisfying as a wet f@rt. ;)
Kevin
-
Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.
-
large empty car park in the snow :) :) :) :)
c,mon ;)
-
Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.
It's much easier to achieve a tight turning circle if you haven't got to drive the front wheels and fit a transverse engine and gearbox in though.
Kevin
-
I personally find that rwd cars handle the power better than fwd... Generally give better handling characteristics as the front wheels are free to steer the car, keeping the car much better balanced.
The fun aspect of rwd is that if conditions are poor, they can easily go out of shape whilst driving, which, at times puts your driving skills to the test in handling the car at the point where the hairs on the back of your neck stand up (when the back of the car steps out going around a roundabout in rush hour)...
-
i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit :y
:y
I saw a thread on this forum where some guy was complaining about the Omega's steering and big turning circle saying to someone "you ever tried driving the car at full pelt mate?" and I just thought "you idiot". (God knows what he really means by this) Even though the police used to use them, trying to really push it in an Omega just seems dangerous (of course going too fast in any car is dangerous). I mean at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.
The Omega does feel like it has a big turning circle but maybe that's down to the length of it?
large empty car park in the snow :) :) :) :)
c,mon ;)
Fair enough but how often does it snow? (probably more in Scotland I suppose)
-
.... I mean at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering ...
I think you mean over steering ie the back of the car trying to overtake you ....as if you were drifting.
Understeering is where, despite having the maximum lock on, it still isn't enough to steer the car around the corner, similar to a FWD car going straight ahead with some steering lock applied. :y
-
I do have to admit that I come from a completely different place, but this does define why I like rwd, why I like playing with it and why I'll never prefer fwd.
I'm an engineer. I have been designing and testing cars, usually on the limit for all of my working life. I like control, working with the car to produce the smoothest and hence fastest progress. Handling is about tyre slip - there's no technical difference between the slip you're getting in a cross-wind and the slip you're getting in a tail-slide. Nor is there any difference to the slip you get in a front-wheel-driver. So the "art", the thing that takes the lifetime to master is the handling - the thing that you'll only get with rear wheel drive, and you'll never get with front-wheel drive.
so, yes, sideways starts as soon as you get moving, and if you want to master driving, then you have to master tyre slip.
-
.... I mean at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering ...
I think you mean over steering ie the back of the car trying to overtake you ....as if you were drifting.
Understeering is where, despite having the maximum lock on, it still isn't enough to steer the car around the corner, similar to a FWD car going straight ahead with some steering lock applied. :y
there is a technical definition...
understeer is any condition where fron tyre slip exceeds rear tyre slip.
and oversteer is where rear tyre slip exceeds front tyre slip.
the CV joint malarchy will naturally limit the lock angle that you can achieve with front wheels.
-
...at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.
If you were to back off too suddenly, especially in a manual rwd car, it would be like pulling up the handbrake.
Also, as said, what happens if one day the rear does decide to step out on you? Are you going to be able to catch it or are you just going to panic and freeze?
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant, there is a point when everything becomes almost weightless as you fight the forces of physics with pure mechanical power...
I've spent around 15 years driving rwd transits, In my youth I've had people running for cover on the pavements because they were convinced I was about to come careering off the road.
::)
-
i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit :y
Funnily enough I assume you are refering to my earler post. I too passed the advanced drving test. I have also had advanced skid pan training for a week.
As I said, "I would not do ths with other road users about" and "safely of course"
:)
-
yep, Transits are really good fun - all the good handling stuff, but at slow speeds.
One of the reasons that I like Omegas is that they are quite heavy and react quite slowly - which matches my own less-than-perfect reactions.
-
i have done a far bit of driver training and i am an advanced driver and prevention of a skid is much better than cure..i find the posters in this thread admitting they use public roads to practise their novice drifting frightening to say the least...on the flip side if plod does catch you driving without due car and attention and charges you with such it does carry a driving ban if the court sees fit :y
:y
I saw a thread on this forum where some guy was complaining about the Omega's steering and big turning circle saying to someone "you ever tried driving the car at full pelt mate?" and I just thought "you idiot". (God knows what he really means by this) Even though the police used to use them, trying to really push it in an Omega just seems dangerous (of course going too fast in any car is dangerous). I mean at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.
The Omega does feel like it has a big turning circle but maybe that's down to the length of it?
large empty car park in the snow :) :) :) :)
c,mon ;)
Fair enough but how often does it snow? (probably more in Scotland I suppose)
It is a big car, but I do know that it has a tighter turning circle than a Citroen C4 Grand Picasso, a particular 'U' turn that I do most day's is no problem in the Mig, occasionally had to 'shunt' the Citroen....... :)
-
....
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant, ...
It is, it's called momentum! :y :y :y Far more difficult to 'catch' 1700kg of Omega that wants to do its own thing than an eg 800kg Smart ......
-
...at times I put my foot down but I always hold off a bit on corners because although it hasn't happened yet I can really imagine it understeering (and I don't want to write it off), often I can feel the weight of the car when going around roundabouts.
If you were to back off too suddenly, especially in a manual rwd car, it would be like pulling up the handbrake.
Also, as said, what happens if one day the rear does decide to step out on you? Are you going to be able to catch it or are you just going to panic and freeze?
Also the weight and size of the vehicle is irrelevant, there is a point when everything becomes almost weightless as you fight the forces of physics with pure mechanical power...
I've spent around 15 years driving rwd transits, In my youth I've had people running for cover on the pavements because they were convinced I was about to come careering off the road.
::)
I 360'd mine twice on some black Ice coming down a hill on a 3 lane road....... I missed the broken down petrol tanker, the reason I braked, the car coming the other way both kerbs and fences and ended up pointing the right way......Shocked would be an understatement.......I remember stopping and collapsing over the steering wheel with relief...........
Must admit that Me and my mates all had Fords, and rwd of course and often used to go playing in the snow on an old bit of the A177 long since bypassed. It had 3 lanes and huge grass verges so little chance of doing any real damage to the car.....this did help to develop car control as well as being great fun.....I became and advanced driver some years later, 1991 iirc..... And have full bike, PSV and HGV or what ever they a called these days...... :y
-
Far more difficult to 'catch' 1700kg of Omega that wants to do its own thing than an eg 800kg Smart ......
I'm talking about if you actively want the car to loose traction, not when it catches you out unexpectedly. There is a point when the weight shifts as the car looses traction, you can keep it balanced and it does feel as if you are floating... works with empty 7.5 tonners too!
1700 k.g.'s, damn I'm glad I didn't know that the other day.
:o
-
Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.
It's much easier to achieve a tight turning circle if you haven't got to drive the front wheels and fit a transverse engine and gearbox in though.
Kevin
You're right in that using a transverse package can hamper the turning circle (The Rover 600 was awful for this) but I'd partly disagree with that Kevin. It's not so much the use of that configuration but the placement of the wheels relative to it and from there the available space for wheel angle. If the old Mini was 6" wider and that width was all inside the front arches then it would potentially have a much greater wheel angle, and thus smaller turning circle.
Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.
-
....
1700 k.g.'s, damn I'm glad I didn't know that the other day.
:o
Actually not all are, but they're not far off by the time you get behind the wheel & fill it up.
Page 223 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.reynolds983/Manuals/Omega2002Manual.pdf :y
-
Large turning circles are down to packaging and suspension/steering/tyre setups, not which end of the motor is being driven.
It's much easier to achieve a tight turning circle if you haven't got to drive the front wheels and fit a transverse engine and gearbox in though.
Kevin
You're right in that using a transverse package can hamper the turning circle (The Rover 600 was awful for this) but I'd partly disagree with that Kevin. It's not so much the use of that configuration but the placement of the wheels relative to it and from there the available space for wheel angle. If the old Mini was 6" wider and that width was all inside the front arches then it would potentially have a much greater wheel angle, and thus smaller turning circle.
Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
-
Having said all that, the easy solution to having FWD and a small turning circle would be to just swing the engine round 90degrees, which is what the likes of Triumph and SAAB did.
Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
Kevin
-
I would add that when you open the taps a bit too quickly on a bike on a damp road and the back starts coming round,things get very interesting indeed. The best cure for constipation known to man. ;D ;D......I have had it happen a few times over the years and to my surprise, never came off in the process, I have no idea how tbh - :D it just straightened out and carried on before I had time to think about it. Just instinctivley rolled the throttle off. It was so violent on one occasion it put my back out for a few days. :'(
-
well .. here is my opinion..
with stiffer suspension and manual box, rwd can have some advantages..
but suspensions designed for comfort , an autobox with long ratios and a heavy weight, you loose most of those (although I drive auto like manual) :-/
however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..
(some modern cars minimizes the requirement as they have esp and ebd and some other related technologies)
in urgent conditions when you skid if you dont have the required practice amd skills to give the necessary contra and the combination of accelerator/brake
usage both you and your car and even some other cars and their owners would pay for your incompetence..
and this practicing must be done regularly for you not to loose your abilities and reflexes..
and another fact is I dont like to damage my expensive tires tread which will be necessary for urgent cases..so I prefer not to test them on dry, may be only once to see the limits..
-
however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..
Well worth doing a skid pan session, IMHO. You cannot hope to regain control of any car you lose, intentionally or on purpose, if it's a new experience for you.
You can't practice it on the road. You can't really practice it off the road unless you can reduce the friction between tyres and ground to such an extent that it's going to happen slow enough to learn from, and slow enough not to cause damage when you fail!
Another point about RWD cars, IMHO, is that they don't have to be uncomfortably firm to handle well whereas FWD cars with a decent amount of power are all over the place if the suspension isn't rock hard.
Or, to summarise: FWD? rearrange the words "turd, polish, can't". ;D
Kevin
-
however I do believe that all drivers must experience/practice and test their cars abilities in an empty road (and also their driving capability) and especially on snow/ice or at least wet..
Well worth doing a skid pan session, IMHO. You cannot hope to regain control of any car you lose, intentionally or on purpose, if it's a new experience for you.
Indeed - there are quite a number of well priced driver training days run around the country; some in which you use your own car, some in which you use an instructional vehicle.. highly recommended.
Then you can graduate to track days and get your kicks in relative safety without being around other road users ;)
-
Another point about RWD cars, IMHO, is that they don't have to be uncomfortably firm to handle well whereas FWD cars with a decent amount of power are all over the place if the suspension isn't rock hard.
Kevin
unfortunately cars providing both high comfort and good handling require complex chasis/mechanical design and they are expensive brands .. Cars within our budget are mostly either comfort oriented or the other.. :-/
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.
Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
-
the turning circle is ultimately limited by the CV joint package on frpnt-wheel-drive. Most cv joints only go to about 23 degrees if you're going to ask them to steer as well as move up and down.
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.
Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
1981 XR2 spec was only 84BHp, the later version being 94 bhp..
1980 XR3 spec was 96BHP and 1989 Spec was only 95BHP
Point I am making is that whilst for the time they were "Hot Hatches" it was more to the body styling than the actual engine power...
Problems are incurred, that have to be overcome (mostly done by fiddling with the suspension iirc) to enable a FWD car have a powerful engine, able to pull itself along (during accelleration) without its wheels spinning stupidly (or TC going berzerk)...
RWD pushing along deals with the more weight of the car going to the road through the driven wheels. Hence better traction, leading to better control...
I have had FWD cars in skids, same as I have had RWD cars in skids (not performed deliberately) due to oil/ice/water on the roads... I personally find RWD easier to regain control. Loose traction with FWD, you loose drive and steering,
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
I had a HS for several years.I never found it challenging to the point of dangerous on dry roads. The handling was quite predictable and controllable, and a lot of fun. But in the wet, it could let go quite suddenly at pretty high speeds. This could well have been more to do with 70,s tyre technology than any inherent shortcomings in the chassis though.
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.
Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
1981 XR2 spec was only 84BHp, the later version being 94 bhp..
1980 XR3 spec was 96BHP and 1989 Spec was only 95BHP
Point I am making is that whilst for the time they were "Hot Hatches" it was more to the body styling than the actual engine power...
Problems are incurred, that have to be overcome (mostly done by fiddling with the suspension iirc) to enable a FWD car have a powerful engine, able to pull itself along (during accelleration) without its wheels spinning stupidly (or TC going berzerk)...
RWD pushing along deals with the more weight of the car going to the road through the driven wheels. Hence better traction, leading to better control...
I have had FWD cars in skids, same as I have had RWD cars in skids (not performed deliberately) due to oil/ice/water on the roads... I personally find RWD easier to regain control. Loose traction with FWD, you loose drive and steering,
Hit the nail right on the head there. I'd rather lose the back than lose the front. Generally I drive like a grandad (I'm only 28), enjoying the comfort of the mig, but when I plant it coming off certain roundabouts at say 50-60 on a left hander I can feel the back swing out and I've got all the time in the world to catch it and whack a bit of opposite lock on whilst maintaining full throttle and it just behaves.
I think in the Mig, the longish wheel base makes a big difference when the back end decides to play. In my old MR2 Turbo (short wheelbase) it wouldn't give you any warning, it'd just try to put you in the hedge before you knew what was going on.
-
I had a HS for several years.I never found it challenging to the point of dangerous on dry roads. The handling was quite predictable and controllable, and a lot of fun. But in the wet, it could let go quite suddenly at pretty high speeds. This could well have been more to do with 70,s tyre technology than any inherent shortcomings in the chassis though.
Worth remembering when considering 1970-80's RWD cars that most were live rear axle and leaf springs on 155 section tyres. ;D
A mate of mine had a 1.3 Chevette that could misbehave if you weren't careful. The Volvo 3 series I was driving at the time, in contrast, was absolutely planted and you could (and I did ::)) use all 74 BHP in pretty much all circumstances. 8-)
Kevin
-
I had a HS for several years.I never found it challenging to the point of dangerous on dry roads. The handling was quite predictable and controllable, and a lot of fun. But in the wet, it could let go quite suddenly at pretty high speeds. This could well have been more to do with 70,s tyre technology than any inherent shortcomings in the chassis though.
Worth remembering when considering 1970-80's RWD cars that most were live rear axle and leaf springs on 155 section tyres. ;D
A mate of mine had a 1.3 Chevette that could misbehave if you weren't careful. The Volvo 3 series I was driving at the time, in contrast, was absolutely planted and you could (and I did ::)) use all 74 BHP in pretty much all circumstances. 8-)
Kevin
I bet you smoked a few tyres putting all that power through them?!?! ;D
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.
Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
I used to have a 1600 Sunbeam with tuned engine and std height rally springs.
That handled fantastically well.
And it was never dangerous.
-
Put gearbox on end then propshaft - might as well go RWD
True, but then you come back to the issue of packaging and here FWD wins hands-down. The Chevette is worth remembering in this instance and in fact, thinking back to the HS and the Sunbeam Lotus, both were awful in terms of space as well as being very challenging, bordering on the dangerous, for average drivers.Then you have a lot of weight (and length of car) overhanging the front wheels due to the location of the engine. :-/
It depends on your viewpoint whether this is a good or bad thing. The weight over the nose can be good for traction, and a lot of inherent understeer can be dialled out.
I'll have to disagree on FWD cars need very stiff setups to be able to get power down, as I believe the key here is to have optimum damping to keep the springing under control, and an over-stiff setup can make a car just as difficult to drive from point to point. Compare the first versions of the XR2/3 and Pug 205.
I had a HS for several years.I never found it challenging to the point of dangerous on dry roads. The handling was quite predictable and controllable, and a lot of fun. But in the wet, it could let go quite suddenly at pretty high speeds. This could well have been more to do with 70,s tyre technology than any inherent shortcomings in the chassis though.
The pair of decent hot hatches - I think the Chevette had better axle location 5 links vs the Sunbeam 4, some Sunbeams got fitted with the Avenger estate 5 link axles.
I would take either over any FWD hatch
-
I had a HS for several years.I never found it challenging to the point of dangerous on dry roads. The handling was quite predictable and controllable, and a lot of fun. But in the wet, it could let go quite suddenly at pretty high speeds. This could well have been more to do with 70,s tyre technology than any inherent shortcomings in the chassis though.
Worth remembering when considering 1970-80's RWD cars that most were live rear axle and leaf springs on 155 section tyres. ;D
A mate of mine had a 1.3 Chevette that could misbehave if you weren't careful. The Volvo 3 series I was driving at the time, in contrast, was absolutely planted and you could (and I did ::)) use all 74 BHP in pretty much all circumstances. 8-)
Kevin
Coil
Leaf
Mark 1 & 2 Escorts were leaf.
Chevette Avenger and Sunbeam were coil
-
Yep - Chevettes were coil sprung, al though they had a live axle.
Tyres on the HS were 205/65/13 Dunlop SP Sport- which were good/expensive (£50 each 30 years ago) tyres in their day, but no doubt would be shite these days.
Interestingly the Escorts had cart springs etc. but they handled brilliantly - they were one of those cars that for some reason seemed to add up to more than the sum of their parts.
I had a 205 GTI a few years ago, and although it was a bit of a hoot it was imo appaling in the handling department comared to the rwd hot hatches I had driven 20 years earlier.
I think that ultimately rwd is always going to be the better system. Modern fwd cars have had a lot of engineering and design effort put into them to try to overcome inherent engineering deficencies, those defincincies are not present in a rwd car from the word go.
-
1981 XR2 spec was only 84BHp, the later version being 94 bhp..
1980 XR3 spec was 96BHP and 1989 Spec was only 95BHP
And the Pug was only 20 horses more than the first XR2. Point here is the suspension was more compliant than the Ford, but with better tuning and location it was a heck of a motor.
Problems are incurred, that have to be overcome (mostly done by fiddling with the suspension iirc) to enable a FWD car have a powerful engine, able to pull itself along (during accelleration) without its wheels spinning stupidly (or TC going berzerk)...
RWD pushing along deals with the more weight of the car going to the road through the driven wheels. Hence better traction, leading to better control...
That's not necessarily so, and remember, if the suspensions set up is badly configured and/or the driveline is located less than correctly then you will lose traction and control. Even then, modern aids such as traction control is just as much a feature on RWD vehicles for safety and control reasons.
-
Interestingly the Escorts had cart springs etc. but they handled brilliantly - they were one of those cars that for some reason seemed to add up to more than the sum of their parts.
A mk. II Escort (HFK 147V, s'funny which things my memory chooses to remember!) is the car that really taught me how to drive, bald rear tyres, damp roads and a 16 year old at the wheel. What fun!
-
On the Chevette and Sunbeam Lotus, the versions I drove were great fun but never could I relax in them, certainly more so in the Sunbeam, and with a big lump up front sitting inside a small body they were challenging, especially compared to their relatives with shopping trolley units. Admittedly I'm going back over 20 years ago now but it wasn't that much later after driving a Chev and Sunbeam that I got my hands on a Pug 205, and there just wasn't a contest in terms of what would get down a public road quicker with less drama. The Lotus, along with a 535MCSI beemer (complete with Alpina spoilers and stickers, I was very shallow back then!) gave me a couple of stern lessons in respecting a lot of power going through the back wheels. So did a 850 a few years later when I turned off the traction control on some snow. What a stupid idea. ;D
On the point of CV joints limiting steering angle, I'm going to disagree here. Outer CV joints can happily take steering angles of over 40degrees, and I recall more recent ones going much further. For reliability, wheel/tyre spec options and packaging reasons (I know, I'm going back to that again) manufacturers will reduce the steering angle possible but it's a bit of a misconception to say they alone limit the turning circle of a FWD car.
Interesting to see leaf springs mentioned as I don't see why some people turn their noses up at them. They're far from perfect but they can, and have been, very effective.
-
Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti. ;)
-
Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti. ;)
.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!
Kevin
-
On the point of CV joints limiting steering angle, I'm going to disagree here. Outer CV joints can happily take steering angles of over 40degrees, and I recall more recent ones going much further. For reliability, wheel/tyre spec options and packaging reasons (I know, I'm going back to that again) manufacturers will reduce the steering angle possible but it's a bit of a misconception to say they alone limit the turning circle of a FWD car.
for a really good cv joint package - just about 23 degrees each side of static, i.e. 45 total.
-
....
A mk. II Escort (HFK 147V, s'funny which things my memory chooses to remember!) is the car that really taught me how to drive, .....
I passed my test in YTC 144L, my driving instructor's Mk I Escort :y
-
..... I personally find RWD easier to regain control. Loose traction with FWD, you loose drive and steering,
IMO it's the other ways round. A RWD skid mean that you have to do something positive to regain control of it. My FWD Astra in the snow was a doddle to drive, if it understeered around corners due to the snow all you had to do was release the throttle ...... and it would usually sort itself out, normally, as long as the driven wheels were pointing roughly in the intended direction then the rest of the car would follow ;D. I think Volvo said they'd only ever make FWD cars now cos they were 'safer' ;)
-
IMO it's the other ways round. A RWD skid mean that you have to do something positive to regain control of it. My FWD Astra in the snow was a doddle to drive, if it understeered around corners due to the snow all you had to do was release the throttle ...... and it would usually sort itself out, normally, as long as the driven wheels were pointing roughly in the intended direction then the rest of the car would follow ;D. I think Volvo said they'd only ever make FWD cars now cos they were 'safer' ;)
= cheaper to mass produce, and it's Volvo so the marketing line is "safer". ;)
Kevin
-
....
= cheaper to mass produce, ....
Exactly ;). One unit fits all. :y
-
Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti. ;)
.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!
Kevin
Especially if following a quick RWD
-
Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti. ;)
.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!
Snap oversteer was meant to be quite violent on those, no? As a result of the torsion beam suspension at the rear IIRC..
The Renault 5 & 19 had the same setup - the 19 could be quite lively, from memory (although the 5 was so much like a gokart I never got it that much out of shape.. unless ridiculous torque steer counts ;D )
-
I might of, on occasion, been a bit heavy with the throttle coming out of a corner. More than once. What I will say about the Omega is that it gives lots of feedback, and progressively oversteers, making it fairly easy to control it - given space of course - despite its weight.
I have certainly suffered lift off oversteer in most cars I've owned. I find that more scary.
I agree with 2woody, RWD Transits, marvellous vehicles to learn in. But fully laden, they do snap out too quickly. Apparently ::)
-
The Renault 5 & 19 had the same setup - the 19 could be quite lively, from memory (although the 5 was so much like a gokart I never got it that much out of shape.. unless ridiculous torque steer counts ;D )
Mate of mine had a 19. Only good thing he could say about it was that the seats recline very nicely so, although the driving was no fun, once you arrived with the GF at a suitable deserted layby.... :-*
Kevin
-
I agree with 2woody, RWD Transits, marvellous vehicles to learn in. But fully laden, they do snap out too quickly. Apparently ::)
University had a fleet of Transit minibuses. One year I got the job of picking up all the freshers at the railway station and delivering them to their accommodation. [smiley=evil.gif]
Funnily enough they didn't ask me the next year. :(
The female Americans seemed to be the most terrified. Just left home, only been on British soil for a few hours and they're being chucked around the roundabouts of Colchester by some maniac in a Transit. ;D
Kevin
-
On the point of CV joints limiting steering angle, I'm going to disagree here. Outer CV joints can happily take steering angles of over 40degrees, and I recall more recent ones going much further. For reliability, wheel/tyre spec options and packaging reasons (I know, I'm going back to that again) manufacturers will reduce the steering angle possible but it's a bit of a misconception to say they alone limit the turning circle of a FWD car.
for a really good cv joint package - just about 23 degrees each side of static, i.e. 45 total.
Sounds about right for plunge shafts, but I'm referring to Rzeppa joints which operate under far bigger angles.
The 205 did have an achillees heel in its rear bushes allowing lift-off oversteer which could get worse as they aged. That of course is if you would even call it a problem if you enjoy twirling the wheel and stamping your foot down out of corners!
I'm going to cheat now and throw another FWD model into the ring with the Elan M100. Irrespective of your natural preference (and yes, it's unfair for me to bring in a sports car) there is simply no way you'd drive one of those and not be extremely impressed with how they can perform.
I can see why some people prefer RWD, just as much as I can see why some go the other way too. It can give a far better balance to a vehicle and steering feel is always going to be better if it doesn't have the added complexities of coping with the drive as well. What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers, or that it is only provided by manufacturers to save production costs. That's not a slight at anyone on here as I don't think it's been said, but you will always see someone get on their soapbox making such comments and it makes my teeth itch.
-
it is only provided by manufacturers to save production costs. That's not a slight at anyone on here as I don't think it's been said, but you will always see someone get on their soapbox making such comments and it makes my teeth itch.
There are good FWD cars (handling wise) - take my little Rover - and poor RWD cars (handling wise) - look a Merc CLK from around 7 or 8 years ago.
FWD is primarily a compromise on handling to reduce the overall cost of the package. This is what it will always boil down to, as the best 2WD handling should always come from a front steered, rear driven setup. For 4WD, it seems that approx 40/60 is still the preferred split.
-
....
What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers, .......
But during last year's snow though, it did tend to be BMWs & Merc's stuck in the gutter with the rear wheels spinning like mad while her hands were white due to gripping the steering wheel with no clue what to do or even where the traction control switch was to turn it off. :y
-
....
What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers, .......
But during last year's snow though, it did tend to be BMWs & Merc's stuck in the gutter with the rear wheels spinning like mad while her hands were white due to gripping the steering wheel with no clue what to do or even where the traction control switch was to turn it off. :y
I saw a FWD car in the village car park in the snow last winter. It was literally bouncing off the rev limiter. Clueless driver appeared to be frustrated that she (yes, it was a "her") was pressing the "go" pedal and nothing was happening. I pointed out that she'd end up embedded in a parade of shops if she did find any traction. They walk among us. :o
Kevin
-
....
What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers, .......
But during last year's snow though, it did tend to be BMWs & Merc's stuck in the gutter with the rear wheels spinning like mad while her hands were white due to gripping the steering wheel with no clue what to do or even where the traction control switch was to turn it off. :y
I saw a FWD car in the village car park in the snow last winter. It was literally bouncing off the rev limiter. Clueless driver appeared to be frustrated that she (yes, it was a "her") was pressing the "go" pedal and nothing was happening. I pointed out that she'd end up embedded in a parade of shops if she did find any traction. They walk among us. :o
Kevin
Only until they get run over by someone just like them .. ;D
Must admit I was one of those people with the car bouncing off the limiter last year when I got stuck at the end of my road - no traction in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and my silly racing clutch doesn't allow enough slip to try 4th, 5th or 6th ;D Every time it started to rock forward it'd slip and zip up to the limiter before I could get off the throttle.
Still.. it did mean that two people came and helped dig the car out of the snow drift .. probably because I woke them up :-[ :-[
-
.....They walk among us. :o
Kevin
Indeed they do. I heard loads of people slating their BMW cos it was hopeless in the snow ..... :-?
I noticed in the highlands of Scotland though that on the whole they just got on with the weather, presumably as they generally get a bit more practice than most of us south of the border. 25-ish yrs ago Pompey got about 1/2" over night ..... the place ground to a halt. :-? :-? ;D
-
im honestly gobsmacked at all ive just read :o
omegas are big and bulky made for comfort to big and heavy great big barges ?
your joking right?
i got another omega because of the power the way i can control the car and yes i drift mine on the track and late rainy nights usually 3am with no-one on the roads no good in the dry with big wheels cos it'll be bye bye tyres i aint no boy racer im 33 like to have fun in my motor i dont hurt anyone and if you drive around like a "grandad" nowadays your more of a menace than anyone else
im also a professional driver and drive for a living probably past more driving tests than most people and have had plenty of experience with most car set ups fwd rwd 4x4 on off road track days rally events banger racing grass track etc etc i dont go daft in busy times just have fun when the roads are bare i dont do it all the time but its fun when i do :P
-
i take it all on here have leather and auto boxes?
dont drift with leather or an auto box it will cause damage to the box and you will be struggling to stay in the seat ;)
-
They can of course be drifted etc. but surely being so big and heavy are far from the ideal tool for the job.
In my experience a smaller lighter, similar powered car - rwd hatch type of thing is much better suited to the task. Never seen anyone rallying an Omega. ;)
-
.....
i got another omega because of the power the way i can control the car and yes i drift mine on the track and late rainy nights usually 3am with no-one on the roads no good in the dry with big wheels cos it'll be bye bye tyres i aint no boy racer im 33 like to have fun in my motor i dont hurt anyone and if you drive around like a "grandad" nowadays your more of a menace than anyone else
im also a professional driver and drive for a living probably past more driving tests than most people and have had plenty of experience with most car set ups fwd rwd 4x4 on off road track days rally events banger racing grass track etc etc i dont go daft in busy times just have fun when the roads are bare i dont do it all the time but its fun when i do :P
Gasp! And breathe!!!!!!!!!!!! must've used up all your full stops elsewhere! ;) :y
-
here you go ;D [smiley=evil.gif]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHdI2KLoPEI[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvxBBMzFsKE&feature=related[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DML9K--cDA[/media]
someone familiar
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapvR6HxBpw[/media]
-
im honestly gobsmacked at all ive just read :o
omegas are big and bulky made for comfort to big and heavy great big barges ?
your joking right?
Ady, how would you describe a car that has 4 doors, big comfy seats, a decent size engine in the front, a large boot, wide tyres, a length of near enough 5 metres and a kerb weight of about 1,700Kg? They're big, quiet, comfortable and they're nicely quick when required. So I don't really see why you're hyperventilating.
i got another omega because of the power the way i can control the car and yes i drift mine on the track and late rainy nights usually 3am with no-one on the roads no good in the dry with big wheels cos it'll be bye bye tyres i aint no boy racer im 33 like to have fun in my motor i dont hurt anyone and if you drive around like a "grandad" nowadays your more of a menace than anyone else.
im also a professional driver and drive for a living probably past more driving tests than most people and have had plenty of experience with most car set ups fwd rwd 4x4 on off road track days rally events banger racing grass track etc etc i dont go daft in busy times just have fun when the roads are bare i dont do it all the time but its fun when i do :P
I think you'll find people refer to their driving style as 'grandad' to mean they drive well within their limits and respect road conditions and legal limits. That's hardly being a menace, and if you have passed as many tests and are a professional driver as you claim then you should be more than aware of your responsibilities as a road user.