Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: davethediver on 23 November 2010, 00:39:23
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As per the title i am going to be converting the car to LPG in the new year and am buying the kit/parts over the next month and a half.
I need to know what components are required tank and kit etc (have read the guides just asking for a bit more info please :)
Tank will be in the boot(saloon) whats the largest i can fit?
Is a four hole better than a single hole?
What comes in a normal LPG kit and where to buy from, reply via PM if links etc aren't allowed :y
TIA for any help given :y
EDIT ~ Any ideas where to obtain a spare inlet manifold so i can have it drilled before i start may have to do the instalation over a couple of weekends :)
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Guessing a single hole will be ok for a four pot, 80 litre seems to work with non self levelling suspension, any bigger the springs may need assistance.
Upright donut tanks fitted in the spare wheel well seem very hard to source in 4 hole form for some reason. :-/
But there are more experienced than me on here, I'm sure they'll be along.
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Dave, I'll give a more detailed response later when not on my phone but...
Single hole tank will be perfectly adequate for a 2.2. You can get a 400mm diameter, 100L tank in but it's a squeeze and heavy... A 80L will be sufficient and should give 300+ miles between fills.
I think there's a 2.2 manifold floating about on the forum somewhere for that purpose.
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Dave, I'll give a more detailed response later when not on my phone but...
Single hole tank will be perfectly adequate for a 2.2. You can get a 400mm diameter, 100L tank in but it's a squeeze and heavy... A 80L will be sufficient and should give 300+ miles between fills.
I think there's a 2.2 manifold floating about on the forum somewhere for that purpose.
There is, i have it in my garage. The idea is you covert that one to be LPG, yours becomes spare when you do the fitting and goes to the next person who wants to convert a 2.2, drop me PM if you want this :y
I've got a 90L torpedo tank in my saloon, its rotated so that it over-fills ever so slightly, but I usually fill up at Asda at High Wycombe as its just 58p a litre, so by the time I either get to my parents or my flat, i've used some, I can get about 74L in from empty, this gets me 350-400 miles.
Single hole is fine, you don't need the bigger flow unlike the V6. Also very few pumps take advantage of a 4 hole pressure, takes about twice as long to fill up on LPG than petrol i've found, much to queuing petrol drivers annoyance! ;D
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Also very few pumps take advantage of a 4 hole pressure, takes about twice as long to fill up on LPG than petrol i've found, much to queuing petrol drivers annoyance!
Oh, you soon learn which pumps are any good with a 4 hole tank. ;) It does make a big difference with the right pump.
A multivalve will be fine for a desmond, though, as said. :y
Some example tank sizes here:
http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/sizes.html
The 892x360 80L tanks are an easy fit, with enough room above them for long items to be carried by folding down the back seats.
400x847 90L is also Ok, but you lose the clearance above the tank.
I have seen 100L tanks fitted but I would think this starts to get a little more tricky.
Kevin
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tinleytech are quite good, they charged me for an 80L tank but gave me a 90L one :)
If you do get pipework from them, get polyflex avoid copper :y
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Mine is a 65 litre tank giving a range of approx. 350 with mixed driving & plenty of room to get long stuff (steps/ladder) through to the front. Also note my multivalve airtight box facing inboard, as I carry a wheelchair regularly & no chance of damage that way, also it is easier to access from behind the seat rather than reaching into the boot rear :y
http://s863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/LPG%20Installation%20Pics/?action=view&current=LPGInstallation37.jpg
http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/LPG%20Installation%20Pics/LPGInstallation37.jpg
http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/LPG%20Installation%20Pics/LPGInstallation32.jpg
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I use a (admittedly higher flow) multivalve in my 3.0l, so you will have no issues with a single hole tank in a 2.2 :y
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
Not when I was in the car mapping it in April... It was even less noticeable than mine, which is now getting slightly worse ;)
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
Well, erm.. :-X
Not convinced the lag is related to anything as far back in the system as the tank valve. I think the gas ECU gets confused by something the engine ECU does and loses sync for a couple of engine cycles. Then again, mine isn't too bad. Occasionally it gives you a jolt just to remind you it's still there. ::)
Kevin
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
Not when I was in the car mapping it in April... It was even less noticeable than mine, which is now getting slightly worse ;)
Mine certainly isn't too bad either, though worse when tank is near empty...
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
Well, erm.. :-X
Not convinced the lag is related to anything as far back in the system as the tank valve. I think the gas ECU gets confused by something the engine ECU does and loses sync for a couple of engine cycles. Then again, mine isn't too bad. Occasionally it gives you a jolt just to remind you it's still there. ::)
Kevin
The thing which has me most confused over it is that there is no lag whatsoever if you hold the pedal to the floor right up to the red line... In any gear ::) ::) I even felt the need to test this again tonight on the way home from work when some c0ck in an Audi was bugging me somewhat with his crap driving :-X :-X ::) ::)
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The thing which has me most confused over it is that there is no lag whatsoever if you hold the pedal to the floor right up to the red line... In any gear ::) ::) I even felt the need to test this again tonight on the way home from work when some c0ck in an Audi was bugging me somewhat with his crap driving :-X :-X ::) ::)
LPG injectors are probably fully open by then. In fact, those injectors are pretty slow in terms of open/close time so they will probably ride out the odd glitch.
It really would be good to investigate a bit further but need some better data acquisition than a 'scope in the passenger footwell. ;D
Kevin
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The thing which has me most confused over it is that there is no lag whatsoever if you hold the pedal to the floor right up to the red line... In any gear ::) ::) I even felt the need to test this again tonight on the way home from work when some c0ck in an Audi was bugging me somewhat with his crap driving :-X :-X ::) ::)
LPG injectors are probably fully open by then. In fact, those injectors are pretty slow in terms of open/close time so they will probably ride out the odd glitch.
It really would be good to investigate a bit further but need some better data acquisition than a 'scope in the passenger footwell. ;D
Kevin
Need something which reacts more quickly than the software as it's too slow.
Think I'm going to try and pin Teilo down again and visit him so he can try curing it... I reckon the problem is the injectors, he reckons that it might be the diaphragm in the Vaporiser not reacting quickly enough if he can't tune it out.
Time I got him to put his money where his mouth is I think
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To be fair, I rarely notice the lag any more as I'm used to lifting just before the gear change if "in the zone" or
take it right to the redline ::) ::)
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Personally, if I were to convert again I'd probably go for a 80L single hole tank for the best compromise ;)
Hmmm, I'm contemplating my next one being 4 hole :-/
Probably advisable as it's a 3.2, although Chris' pressure wasn't dropping off at full chat so the high flow multivalve should be plenty man enough :-/
Though he seems to suffer lag worse than the rest of us, unless he's a whinging sod ;D
Well, erm.. :-X
Not convinced the lag is related to anything as far back in the system as the tank valve. I think the gas ECU gets confused by something the engine ECU does and loses sync for a couple of engine cycles. Then again, mine isn't too bad. Occasionally it gives you a jolt just to remind you it's still there. ::)
Kevin
The thing which has me most confused over it is that there is no lag whatsoever if you hold the pedal to the floor right up to the red line... In any gear ::) ::) I even felt the need to test this again tonight on the way home from work when some c0ck in an Audi was bugging me somewhat with his crap driving :-X :-X ::) ::)
Mine only lags at redline. Perfect the rest of the time, truely perfect.
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Looking at a prins system personally, expensive, but local installer won't use anything else purely due to the injectors, kehins just work he said, we get aggro with all the others.
It maybe that he can make more on a prins, which might explain his refusal to fit anything else now. But I get the feeling prins is issue free....it may be that he can make more on a prins due to ease of set up and less rather about with gremlins. He also mentioned the prins works better with seasonal changes. Got the feeling mine needed re calibration on the average ambient temp to keep the lag at bay as much as possible.
I did ask of the prins kehin injectors could be used on any other kit. But who knows what signal they run off, and will the drivers(?) fail after a while if not totally happy?
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I did ask of the prins kehin injectors could be used on any other kit. But who knows what signal they run off, and will the drivers(?) fail after a while if not totally happy?
Patrick at the place in Alresford where Entwood got his conversion raved about Keihin injectors too.
There are plenty of injector settings on the Stag ECU. I'm sure one of them will work.
Having said that, with the number of Stag systems we as a forum are running, there certainly doesn't appear to be an issue with reliability of any of the kit, injectors included. They are just rather slow, which may or may not explain the problem. (I have seen other systems with equally clunky injectors work fine)
From the point of view of an installer, why would you support multiple systems? Find one that works for you and stick with it. It also means that you'll be putting more business with a single supplier so can probably get a better deal.
.. especially considering UKLPG and the manufacturers are a bit anal about going on a course for every kit, when in reality they are exactly the same beast so if you're competent at fitting one, you can fit them all.
Kevin
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All makes sense, but they have numerous customers of varying budget, not all want to pay top whack for a gremlin free kit. They fitted stag brc in the past and numerous others to suit the customers pocket/fussiness. From what he tells me some LPG customers don't care how they arrive, or even if they arrive as long as it's cheap, going by his report on some of the test drives he's done.
Certainly the stag kit components are reliable in that they don't break. Fact is we all have a lag issue of some sort with a v engine. I'll not be buying another until a solution is found personally. Shame.
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All makes sense, but they have numerous customers of varying budget, not all want to pay top whack for a gremlin free kit. They fitted stag brc in the past and numerous others to suit the customers pocket/fussiness. From what he tells me some LPG customers don't care how they arrive, or even if they arrive as long as it's cheap, going by his report on some of the test drives he's done.
Certainly the stag kit components are reliable in that they don't break. Fact is we all have a lag issue of some sort with a v engine. I'll not be buying another until a solution is found personally. Shame.
Although, didn't LD have an ecu fail?
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Although, didn't LD have an ecu fail?
Was a fuse in the end IIRC. I think somebody had an injector fail, and somebody else a vap. temperature sensor but that's all I am aware of.
Thing is: how much cheaper is a Stag kit once you are having it professionally fitted? Probably not that significant when the labour is added.
Kevin
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So it sounds like a single hole 90L is about the right choice for me had a look on the tinleytech site and it only shows them without the valve unlike the fourhole.
Stupid question time where do i buy the valve from can't see it on their site??
How much pipe do i need from them or is there a kit that supplys it all, as mentioned i will be buying it bit by bit over the next month.
Stag front end kit seems to be the way forward from what everyone is saying :y
Tunnie will probably take you up on the manifold, who is it that does the drilling and tapping again??
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So it sounds like a single hole 90L is about the right choice for me had a look on the tinleytech site and it only shows them without the valve unlike the fourhole.
Stupid question time where do i buy the valve from can't see it on their site??
How much pipe do i need from them or is there a kit that supplys it all, as mentioned i will be buying it bit by bit over the next month.
Stag front end kit seems to be the way forward from what everyone is saying :y
Tunnie will probably take you up on the manifold, who is it that does the drilling and tapping again??
Dave, imho it would be much better to wait until you have the money to hand & get the full kit in one go from Teilo. Everything you need is there & you only need to specify which tank size you want. As for drilling & tapping the Manifold, if you can drill a hole in a piece of metal, you are capable of doing it yourself, it only takes a 1/2 hour! You can fit the back end (tank, valve, piping & wiring) easily in a day weather permitting. My system cost me £495 earlier in the year. :y
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Tunnie will probably take you up on the manifold, who is it that does the drilling and tapping again??
Mine was done expertly by Kevin Wood :y
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Tunnie will probably take you up on the manifold, who is it that does the drilling and tapping again??
Mine was done expertly by Kevin Wood :y
:-[ ::)
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All makes sense, but they have numerous customers of varying budget, not all want to pay top whack for a gremlin free kit. They fitted stag brc in the past and numerous others to suit the customers pocket/fussiness. From what he tells me some LPG customers don't care how they arrive, or even if they arrive as long as it's cheap, going by his report on some of the test drives he's done.
Certainly the stag kit components are reliable in that they don't break. Fact is we all have a lag issue of some sort with a v engine. I'll not be buying another until a solution is found personally. Shame.
Thing is, do Prins, BRC etc suffer issues with the lag? Certainly my lag only shows up (and not all the time), when ragging the tits off it.
I reckon - though not tried - I could completely eliminate my lag by switching to petrol at around 6500rpm, and ensuring that it ran on petrol for a minimum of 2 or 3s.
My lag is more prevalent at the 2nd to 3rd and the 3rd to 4th gearchanges (and only if it redlines), and occurs immediately after the gearchange. How many people drive like that? I certainly don't often enough to annoy me, else I would have done something about it.
I'm tempted to go with the Stag, mainly due to the knowledge on here, and then both Omegas also run similar systems,
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All makes sense, but they have numerous customers of varying budget, not all want to pay top whack for a gremlin free kit. They fitted stag brc in the past and numerous others to suit the customers pocket/fussiness. From what he tells me some LPG customers don't care how they arrive, or even if they arrive as long as it's cheap, going by his report on some of the test drives he's done.
Certainly the stag kit components are reliable in that they don't break. Fact is we all have a lag issue of some sort with a v engine. I'll not be buying another until a solution is found personally. Shame.
Thing is, do Prins, BRC etc suffer issues with the lag? Certainly my lag only shows up (and not all the time), when ragging the tits off it.
I reckon - though not tried - I could completely eliminate my lag by switching to petrol at around 6500rpm, and ensuring that it ran on petrol for a minimum of 2 or 3s.
My lag is more prevalent at the 2nd to 3rd and the 3rd to 4th gearchanges (and only if it redlines), and occurs immediately after the gearchange. How many people drive like that? I certainly don't often enough to annoy me, else I would have done something about it.
I'm tempted to go with the Stag, mainly due to the knowledge on here, and then both Omegas also run similar systems,
I can't tell if any other system will lag. But having driven Entwoods car at wot, there is no such issue with his car. Main issue with Stag is lack of support IMO. What sort of supplier leaves an inherent issue to very helpful members on a forum to sort out? Kevin and Paul have bent over backwards to help me and numerous others on here. What has Tllo done other than make a profit?
I spoke to him the other day and he basically blanked it saying nothing will happen for months, I offered to visit, I offered and emailed details of Entwoods system to compare as requested, I rang back and have been blanked ever since. Won't take calls won't answer emails. >:( how long has he known about the issue? Years?
Frankly I'm surprised people still stick with it....? If you must buy Stag, and there's a fair case for doing so, don't get it from Tilo, he does not deserve the business.
If there is an issue with the prins, and there better not be for the price, the guy who supplied it is at hand. It is concerning that the issue may be specific to the omega, but if Entwoods system can work flawlessly, so would the prins surely....?
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And appologies to Dave for hijacking his thread... :-[
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And actually the real "thing is" the Stag system should not lag...at all. Why persevere with it on a v engine?
From what I gather it's fine on the 4 pots is it?
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If there is an issue with the prins, and there better not be for the price, the guy who supplied it is at hand. It is concerning that the issue may be specific to the omega, but if Entwoods system can work flawlessly, so would the prins surely....?
I'm quite sure it's not. Problem is there with two different generations of Bosch engine management system, so if one of them had some bizarre incompatibility I could believe it, but not both. :-/
Kevin
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If there is an issue with the prins, and there better not be for the price, the guy who supplied it is at hand. It is concerning that the issue may be specific to the omega, but if Entwoods system can work flawlessly, so would the prins surely....?
I'm quite sure it's not. Problem is there with two different generations of Bosch engine management system, so if one of them had some bizarre incompatibility I could believe it, but not both. :-/
Kevin
Well that's good news. But where does that leave us with stag? ::)
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Unfortunately I probably wont be affected by any of these Stag issues any longer as it looks like my Mig is going to have to go up for sale in the next few weeks. And I waited so long to get one with LPG. ::) :'(
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If there is an issue with the prins, and there better not be for the price, the guy who supplied it is at hand. It is concerning that the issue may be specific to the omega, but if Entwoods system can work flawlessly, so would the prins surely....?
I'm quite sure it's not. Problem is there with two different generations of Bosch engine management system, so if one of them had some bizarre incompatibility I could believe it, but not both. :-/
Kevin
A related q, is it worse on a 3.1.1 ecu? Would. I be better avoiding stag on my 3.2
I am reasonably content with the stag+ on my mv6
Is it the fact it's a stag+ that makes it less noticeable on mine?
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A related q, is it worse on a 3.1.1 ecu? Would. I be better avoiding stag on my 3.2
I am reasonably content with the stag+ on my mv6
Is it the fact it's a stag+ that makes it less noticeable on mine?
Lots of questions.. Not sure I've really experienced it in a car other than mine so can't comment on the difference between the two setups.
If I drove my car hard more often than I do then I would be trying harder to resolve it. "Reasonably content"? :-/ It's not something I would put up with if I was frequently changing gear in the 5K-6K region but all the dullards doing a fixed 45 MPH on my commute, and having the Westfield for when I want to have fun, make it less of an issue. ;)
I'm generally either pootling along, or overtaking them with all guns blazing and it seems to work Ok in both of those scenarios.
Kevin
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Stag and Stag + are, IIRC, pin compatible, so we could do a swap and see if either of us notices a difference?
Kevin
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A related q, is it worse on a 3.1.1 ecu? Would. I be better avoiding stag on my 3.2
I am reasonably content with the stag+ on my mv6
Is it the fact it's a stag+ that makes it less noticeable on mine?
Lots of questions.. Not sure I've really experienced it in a car other than mine so can't comment on the difference between the two setups.
If I drove my car hard more often than I do then I would be trying harder to resolve it. "Reasonably content"? :-/ It's not something I would put up with if I was frequently changing gear in the 5K-6K region but all the dullards doing a fixed 45 MPH on my commute, and having the Westfield for when I want to have fun, make it less of an issue. ;)
I'm generally either pootling along, or overtaking them with all guns blazing and it seems to work Ok in both of those scenarios.
Kevin
Whilst I don't thrash the tits off the car, I'd be lying if I said it didn't occasionally have a spirited drive ::)
The lag I get - maybe someone can comment if its what they see - is almost like less than half a sec of misfire (remember when we calibrated it, and the 3rd to 4th gearchange (IIRC) when it all went bad?) after it changes gear at redline rpm.
I don't think it particularly hinders my progress, though does make the gearchange uncomfortable, and I doubt its doing any favours to the engine.
Thus reasonably content :)
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Additionally, I reckon the lag is worse if the tank is under half full....
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Hmm. Was in a hurry on the way home, and the useless lot at the Total garage had an out of order sign on the pump (normally they do just let me stand there wondering why nothing's happening). This conspired towards a spirited drive on petrol, and reminded me how it should change up under load. ::)
Kevin
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Hmm. Was in a hurry on the way home, and the useless lot at the Total garage had an out of order sign on the pump (normally they do just let me stand there wondering why nothing's happening). This conspired towards a spirited drive on petrol, and reminded me how it should change up under load. ::)
Kevin
having a smaller tank mine often fell a few miles short of the next fill up, suprising what we get used to....
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Other than warming up this is the first time it's been on petrol for 18 months. ;D
Kevin
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First post on the new gayphone so it may go horribly wrong but here goes! ::)
The lag on mine is noticeably worse towards the end of the tank and in cold weather. Seems to be when changes are between about 5100 and 6k rpm. I'm happy enough but feel little frustrated that the problem still hasn't been resolved :(
I may well just go back to the compromise of switching to petrol over 5100 but that seems a shame as red line changes are ok. TBH, I rarely get the lag now as I'm in the habit of lifting slightly to force the change to be more Smooth.