Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: feeutfo on 16 November 2010, 17:53:59
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Examined my new car today and the wishbone bushes have failed, front and rearward fubar!
So what to do I wondered. I have an old pair here with failed fronts and on examination the rearward bush is not too bad, far better than whats on the car anyway...so order some Polly and re fit, but then I remembered I had BMW m3 bushes said to fit in another thread on here a couple of years ago, in relation to the mark dtm press at newent thread, when we all bought bushes from all German parts and mark pressed them in at newent, until the press broke that is.
Bugger it I thought, nout to loose, I cut the old front bush out by drilling round the rubber to remove the spacer and hack sawing through the outer to remove the whole bush, easy enough...
...now the hard bit, get the new bush in. Put the wishbone in a vice and whaked the bush in with a hammer by tapping (well,belting) round the outer metal edge of the bush! Piece of pess, as they say, and frankly I couldn't believe it went in so easy, although it did need a good belt to get it in square.
Obviously this is not the correct bush for the omega in that the centre hole is not central on this part, it gives a 3.0mill wider track, so the center hole is off set by 1.5mill each side, so begs the question is the outside diameter of the bush a fraction smaller maybe? Might explain the easy fitting.
Anyone know the outside diameter of the correct bush? I know a certain moderator has a set waiting to be pressed in, and if the size shown in the pic below is the same, I'm sure he won't need a press to fit them, just belt them in with a hammer, hopefully?
Size
.(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/ce43ef9c.jpg)
This pic shows the new bush fitted in the wishbone on the left in the vice, old bush remnants behind, and new bush to go in the wishbone on the right, I'll do that one tomorrow and fit at the weekend just to see how it goes. :y
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/6c896f71.jpg)
In fact it might be worth trying the same procedure on the rear bush as well, ya never know, would be so good if we don't need a press after all...... Maybe? :-/
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I should add, I removed the plastic spacer before hammering the bush in as it would have broken or been damaged. It just levered off and presses back on again.
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Sometimes the new bushes go in ok, sometimes they are tight, dependent on manufacturing tolerances I guess.
Rears are easy enough to press in.
TIS does state that the front one can have a wipe of oil around it before fitting but the rear must be fitted dry.
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Well, theres always a bigger hammer I guess? SammaAAAAAY ;D
I only used a claw hammer. :-/ and the remaining bush does have a different finish on it, so may well be more stubborn.
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Well, theres always a bigger hammer I guess? SammaAAAAAY ;D
I only used a claw hammer. :-/ and the remaining bush does have a different finish on it, so may well be more stubborn.
Which end did you use ::)
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Well, theres always a bigger hammer I guess? SammaAAAAAY ;D
I only used a claw hammer. :-/ and the remaining bush does have a different finish on it, so may well be more stubborn.
Which end did you use ::)
The blunt end, as always. ;)
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...so anyone got a genuine omega bush they can measure?
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genuine vx bush sat on my desk here measures between 58.05 to 58.55 dia
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Thanks S.
58.55 might be considerably tighter fit ? :o
And .50 of a mill is a lot of variation.... Still, I have a wide range of hammers. :-/. ;D
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that was measuring the the same bush in two axis, the mean dia would be 58.25 approx :y
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The sledge should do it, Chris.. ;D
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The sledge should do it, Chris.. ;D
Av it ! [smiley=evil.gif]
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Is it not possible to press them in using the vice? :-/
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Is it not possible to press them in using the vice? :-/
Possibly, that was my original plan, but...
The vice jaws in this case don't quite open enough for the width of the wishbone and the bush, plus it really needs a drift to allow the pressure to fall on the bush rim, as the center spacer protrudes. Other wise the centre spacer would be forced off centre. A stress best avoided to my mind?
...and I had a feeling the vice handle would bend or rip the vice off the bench.
Plus the shock of the hammer blow helps considerably this way. I was concerned the bush rim would pean over with the hammer and start the rubber off delaminating, but no, it took it well. In that size anyway.
My concern is some production tolerances or size variation would mean too much of an interference fit, and too big a hammer would then batter the bush rim cussing problems there.
But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle. 8-)
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But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle.
Job well done. a case of ---'Miracles we can do now, the impossible might take a bit longer' :y
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But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle.
Job well done. a case of ---'Miracles we can do now, the impossible might take a bit longer' :y
Miracle failed. Can't get the second bush in fully. It's got about 5mill to go. Vice and bench nearly destroyed getting it in that far. If I had a more solid surface to strike onto, like an anvil ::) I'd av it! This one considerably tighter. :(
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But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle.
Job well done. a case of ---'Miracles we can do now, the impossible might take a bit longer' :y
Miracle failed. Can't get the second bush in fully. It's got about 5mill to go. Vice and bench nearly destroyed getting it in that far. If I had a more solid surface to strike onto, like an anvil ::) I'd av it! This one considerably tighter. :(
Probably to late now, but a smidgen of Fairy liquid may have been all that was needed.
My money is on a result -- eventually. :y
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But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle.
Job well done. a case of ---'Miracles we can do now, the impossible might take a bit longer' :y
Miracle failed. Can't get the second bush in fully. It's got about 5mill to go. Vice and bench nearly destroyed getting it in that far. If I had a more solid surface to strike onto, like an anvil ::) I'd av it! This one considerably tighter. :(
Probably to late now, but a smidgen of Fairy liquid may have been all that was needed.
My money is on a result -- eventually. :y
They where lightly oiled...
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I have a 20 ton press and various drifts etc at work if you get really stuck.
lee
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But in this particular case, was amazed how easy they went in. I was expecting a right battle.
Job well done. a case of ---'Miracles we can do now, the impossible might take a bit longer' :y
Miracle failed. Can't get the second bush in fully. It's got about 5mill to go. Vice and bench nearly destroyed getting it in that far. If I had a more solid surface to strike onto, like an anvil ::) I'd av it! This one considerably tighter. :(
Probably to late now, but a smidgen of Fairy liquid may have been all that was needed.
My money is on a result -- eventually. :y
They where lightly oiled...
Did you oil both, Chris? Because MDTM posted this earlier:
Sometimes the new bushes go in ok, sometimes they are tight, dependent on manufacturing tolerances I guess.
Rears are easy enough to press in.
TIS does state that the front one can have a wipe of oil around it before fitting but the rear must be fitted dry.
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Both fronts, I don't have the rearwards yet, coming tomorrow from allgerman and will be fitted dry, as master says.
Rearward bush not as easy to get out either, centre spacer has a considerable bulge within the bush, almost ball like. No line of sight directly through the rubber so hadcto drill through with increasing diameter drill bits. Broke two drills. >:(
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I have a 20 ton press and various drifts etc at work if you get really stuck.
lee
Thanks Lee, might come to that. ;D ;)
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Both fronts, I don't have the rearwards yet, coming tomorrow from allgerman and will be fitted dry, as master says.
Rearward bush not as easy to get out either, centre spacer has a considerable bulge within the bush, almost ball like. No line of sight directly through the rubber so hadcto drill through with increasing diameter drill bits. Broke two drills. >:(
Ahh got you - I thought you were doing both bushes on one wishbone.. but one bush on two wishbones makes much more sense now I think back to the photo you posted :-[
Thought of you this morning btw, as I went through 'that' junction to the M3 and hit the brakes .. and then realised I was only doing 40 in a 50 anyway ;D
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Both fronts, I don't have the rearwards yet, coming tomorrow from allgerman and will be fitted dry, as master says.
Rearward bush not as easy to get out either, centre spacer has a considerable bulge within the bush, almost ball like. No line of sight directly through the rubber so hadcto drill through with increasing diameter drill bits. Broke two drills. >:(
Ahh got you - I thought you were doing both bushes on one wishbone.. but one bush on two wishbones makes much more sense now I think back to the photo you posted :-[
Thought of you this morning btw, as I went through 'that' junction to the M3 and hit the brakes .. and then realised I was only doing 40 in a 50 anyway ;D
I think it's the 50 on a dual carriage way that throws me down there. A lot of queues during rush hour so fair enough round those bends (over that rise/down the dip/under the bridge) prior to those lights m3 bound, but on the straight??? 50? Nah :-[. ;D how to learn patience? I mean at the time of night I got flashed the road was almost empty ffs. >:(. (Sigh)
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Thread drift here but :) I think the 50 limit is more for traffic going in the other direction and the bit with the village on it - the junctions that join the dual carriageway when you're heading toward Bracknell have 20yd visibility as you merge due to the hills - you certainly don't want to hang around as you pull on.
But yeah.. I'm not a patient man either, I was only doing 40 due to the traffic ;D
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Fitted these at the weekend. Steering is nice and tight.... :y
But they are harsh. Much more solid construction than omega bushes obviously. Assuming Polly will be firmer, i will not be fitting anything other than Omega bushes in future. Unless something slightly firmer can be found, as opposed to very firm like these m3 bushes. Can't see Polly being a better solution IMO? Other than life span of course. :-/. ....?
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And the fact that you don't need to fit them with a sledgehammer? ;)
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...and bounce the entire contents of the bench onto the floor, almost including the pilar drill. :D
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;D
I wonder if the extra harshness has anything to do with the offset center on these? Or whether you're getting any binding anywhere that's directly transferring vibrations?
It seems odd that they'd be so much harsher - the M3 is known for it's handling, but I thought it was still a 'refined' car..
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Can't see the 1.5 mill off set making much odds, :-/ not as much deviation from stock as failed omega bushes would alter the camber to wear the tyres on the inside edge. Or certainly no worse...
The plastic insert is far more substantial on the m3 bush. It sits much closer to the outside edge. Omega plastic insert is miles away by comparison.
Rearward bush is stock.
It needs set up, tomorrow, it still seems to dive into dips in the road surface rather than ride them, and I've lowered the tyre pressures just to see but I'm not hopefull any of that will affect the ride in any way. Can feel the differance as the front hits a bump first, it's harsher than the rear.
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nice bit of info there bud :y going from this i think i would definetly fit them to mine!!! however harsh or harder they are i would value the sharper response steering wise!!
were they expensive? :y
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nice bit of info there bud :y going from this i think i would definetly fit them to mine!!! however harsh or harder they are i would value the sharper response steering wise!!
were they expensive? :y
Not sure I would recommend them OT. They are very very harsh on the brakes! As I discovered today on the way to Wim. Roads round Chesham are very poor. BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good. That plastic spacer hammers the outside edge of the wishbone under heavy braking.I don't think it will take long for that plastic part to brake. :(
Wim reported a big toe discrepancy of -0.32 and -0.31 when it should be +0.05 which it now is, bang on! And camber of -2.13 and -2.42 prior to set up, which I am not surprised about as the car was nowhere near that far out before fitting m3 bushes when measured by spirit level and "rifle siting" the front wheels for line up with the rear. All makes sense given the offset spacer.
The guy at Wim said they where defo firmer than stock when levering with his trusty bar, but softer than Polly he had seen on other models.....
.....wonder if it's worth adjusting the spacer by grinding off some material between spacer and bush outside edge? Might make them less harsh but still keep some of the steering firmness....? :-/
Fairly easy to remove, grind on a bench grinder and refit. My Jack lifts high enough to slide ramps under the front wheels to make bolt re torqueing so much easier :y
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nice bit of info there bud :y going from this i think i would definetly fit them to mine!!! however harsh or harder they are i would value the sharper response steering wise!!
were they expensive? :y
Not sure I would recommend them OT. They are very very harsh on the brakes! As I discovered today on the way to Wim. Roads round Chesham are very poor. BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good. That plastic spacer hammers the outside edge of the wishbone under heavy braking.I don't think it will take long for that plastic part to brake. :(
Wim reported a big toe discrepancy of -0.32 and -0.31 when it should be +0.05 which it now is, bang on! And camber of -2.13 and -2.42 prior to set up, which I am not surprised about as the car was nowhere near that far out before fitting m3 bushes when measured by spirit level and "rifle siting" the front wheels for line up with the rear. All makes sense given the offset spacer.
The guy at Wim said they where defo firmer than stock when levering with his trusty bar, but softer than Polly he had seen on other models.....
.....wonder if it's worth adjusting the spacer by grinding off some material between spacer and bush outside edge? Might make them less harsh but still keep some of the steering firmness....? :-/
Fairly easy to remove, grind on a bench grinder and refit. My Jack lifts high enough to slide ramps under the front wheels to make bolt re torqueing so much easier :y
ok Chris keep me informed, thanks again :y
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That plastic spacer hammers the outside edge of the wishbone under heavy braking.
Told you so... :P *ducks*
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Hmmm, got a nasty feeling....
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Hmmm, got a nasty feeling....
That you're going to thump me if I say that again? ;D
Or you've got a nasty feeling that the plastic spacer has exploded?
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BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good.
I wonder if the inner sleeve of the bush is a little loose on the bolt if it's knocking?
Kevin
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BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good.
I wonder if the inner sleeve of the bush is a little loose on the bolt if it's knocking?
Kevin
Nah, properly torqued. My Jack lifts the car high enough to get ramps under the wheels. So wheels loaded, the ramps slide on the drive so the the wheels aren't pinched, and plenty of room to swing a torque wrench and angle tighten. Well happy with that, and the sleeve is the same length, I checked that.
However, have a look at the pics at the start...see if you can spot my deliberate mistake.
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BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good.
I wonder if the inner sleeve of the bush is a little loose on the bolt if it's knocking?
Kevin
Nah, properly torqued. My Jack lifts the car high enough to get ramps under the wheels. So wheels loaded, the ramps slide on the drive so the the wheels aren't pinched, and plenty of room to swing a torque wrench and angle tighten. Well happy with that, and the sleeve is the same length, I checked that.
However, have a look at the pics at the start...see if you can spot my deliberate mistake.
Not much travel in the bush in the braking direction? You sure they're supposed to be that way round? ::)
Kevin
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BANG from the front as I hit the brakes over a not particularly broken bit of road surface, not good.
I wonder if the inner sleeve of the bush is a little loose on the bolt if it's knocking?
Kevin
Nah, properly torqued. My Jack lifts the car high enough to get ramps under the wheels. So wheels loaded, the ramps slide on the drive so the the wheels aren't pinched, and plenty of room to swing a torque wrench and angle tighten. Well happy with that, and the sleeve is the same length, I checked that.
However, have a look at the pics at the start...see if you can spot my deliberate mistake.
Not much travel in the bush in the braking direction? You sure they're supposed to be that way round? ::)
Kevin
A slight error in the bush orientation........ 'dangle berries'! :-[. ;D
New set of bushes arrived today from allgerman, press the original 60k old wishbones tomorrow with a bit of luck. Arse!
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PMSL
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PMSL
is that all? I was expecting much more... :-[.
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PMSL
is that all? I was expecting much more... :-[.
I'm not vindictive, or a pisstaker....
...though I was contemplating swinging past yours to get your opinion on my bushes... ...not sure I should now ;D
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PMSL
is that all? I was expecting much more... :-[.
I'm not vindictive, or a pisstaker....
...though I was contemplating swinging past yours to get your opinion on my bushes... ...not sure I should now ;D
Nope, no idea what I'm talking about..... ...oh well. I'll just have to learn how to press them out as well as in. They can go on the silver car once rectified.
Still, should be good when sorted. Ffs. Ahahahaaaa. :-[
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I would be inclined to try them without the plastic bit.
Might just rescue the situation. :-X
Kevin
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are we sure the palstic bit should be there ?
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I would be inclined to try them without the plastic bit.
Might just rescue the situation. :-X
Kevin
The shape of the center sleave/spacer is directional afaict. It helps control the movement, gives the rubber a surface to push on and concentrates the rubber into a wedge to give further control by the look of things, as are webs in the rubber pointing one way from what I remember.
Easyest option would be to just fit Polly. But I really want to see how these perform at their best.
My only concern is that they are very solid with a lot more rubber. Might just pull themselves apart with too much suspension movement perhaps? Only time and correct fitment will tell, plus these have been in my garage for best part of two years, so may have degraded possibly?
New ones might last longer...? But you raise a good point, although I am quite sure the banging and harshness will disappear fitted correctly...well, sure as I can be of anything ATM. ::)
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My reasoning is that there's not much movement in that direction anyway due to the off-centre nature of the centre bolt - so the rubber will probably provide enough cushioning as it's quite thick that side, and there's likely not enough movement to allow it to tear itself apart without the plastic insert.
Granted it'd work better the right way round, but getting it out intact and reversing is a tall order, IMHO.
Kevin
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are we sure the palstic bit should be there ?
"there" as in position? No, it's 180 degrees out, it should be on the other side.
Or "there" as in fitted at all? Well, yes if it was fitted to a BMW. Omega one is less substantial. Which should give better control, which I believe, is what I want?
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My reasoning is that there's not much movement in that direction anyway due to the off-centre nature of the centre bolt - so the rubber will probably provide enough cushioning as it's quite thick that side, and there's likely not enough movement to allow it to tear itself apart without the plastic insert.
Granted it'd work better the right way round, but getting it out intact and reversing is a tall order, IMHO.
Kevin
See what you mean and agree, but also the web to spacer will be pulling the rubber away from the spacer flat surface, might separate under braking without the spacer perhaps? :-/
Think I've worked that out right, shouldn't post on technical matters when tired, been a long week :(