Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Jim on 13 December 2010, 17:04:23
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Right I'm moving back to the UK in Jan, and start in my new job in the Gloucester Area in Feb, As I have a 750 mile weekly commute to Glasgow I'm thinking of going down the LPG route. I willing to do a DIY conversion but don't know where to start, is anyone willing to help me!!!! ;)
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Come down to the Hampshire meet and maybe we can get some of the LPG experts to come. KW will already be there :y
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Come down to the Hampshire meet and maybe we can get some of the LPG experts to come. KW will already be there :y
I might just do that :y
Has a date been set yet??
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We tried to do mine in a weekend, purely to see if its possible. If *everything* goes to plan, its probably possible, but not feasible.
With the guides on this site, it is DIY'able, though the guides all cover the Stag 300 kit, which seems to cause a lag on automatic V6's (unsure about manuals).
Its really all about working out where to fit the bits, where to pick up the coolant flow from, then bolting it all in and wiring up. You need to comply with COP11, so have a read of those.
I need to do the Elite in the next couple of months, but the jury is still out on which LPG kit to use.
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Jim, I have a spare 3.0 inlet if you want it to pre-drill and tap for the gas injectors? I'll have yours once you've finished the conversion :y
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Jim, I have a spare 3.0 inlet if you want it to pre-drill and tap for the gas injectors? I'll have yours once you've finished the conversion :y
Excellent Mate, I just have to decide which car to convert, my Original Omega Or My newer 3.2 elite ::)
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We tried to do mine in a weekend, purely to see if its possible. If *everything* goes to plan, its probably possible, but not feasible.
With the guides on this site, it is DIY'able, though the guides all cover the Stag 300 kit, which seems to cause a lag on automatic V6's (unsure about manuals).
Its really all about working out where to fit the bits, where to pick up the coolant flow from, then bolting it all in and wiring up. You need to comply with COP11, so have a read of those.
I need to do the Elite in the next couple of months, but the jury is still out on which LPG kit to use.
Cheers Jamie,
I'm looking forward to getting back to the UK and getting back into the OOF meeting etc.
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I have a 3.0 and a 2.5 inlet, if anyone needs them...
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I have a 3.0 and a 2.5 inlet, if anyone needs them...
This is starting to sound like the 'Inlet Exchange Service' ;D ;D
It will ultimately help to speed up a conversion though having the inlet prepared beforehand.
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remember to bring back some (pre cooked) italian sausage then if you forget the regulater we will still be sorted ;)good to hear your coming home :y
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remember to bring back some (pre cooked) italian sausage then if you forget the regulater we will still be sorted ;)good to hear your coming home :y
Glad to be coming home :y
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Kevin has a handfull of inlet manifolds now IIRCC..
As for the conversion, time permitting, I'm willing to help out ;) ;)
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Kevin has a handfull of inlet manifolds now IIRCC..
As for the conversion, time permitting, I'm willing to help out ;) ;)
Cheers Mate :y
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Yep, more than happy to sort out the manifold in advance and I have a spare one here. Will have to dig it out and see if it's a 3.0 or 2.5 though.
I'm in 2 minds about the conversion. On one hand, if we have the opportunity to get the car on a lift and throw manpower at it I'm sure it will come together quickly. On the other hand, trying to do a conversion in a weekend is OK until something goes less than smoothly, as TheBoy's conversion proved. Then it turns into a nightmare. :-/
Kevin
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Kevin has a handfull of inlet manifolds now IIRCC..
When I get them to him ::)
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Yep, more than happy to sort out the manifold in advance and I have a spare one here. Will have to dig it out and see if it's a 3.0 or 2.5 though.
Kevin, If that's the one I swapped for a drilled and tapped one from you it is definately a 3.0 one. :y
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Yep, more than happy to sort out the manifold in advance and I have a spare one here. Will have to dig it out and see if it's a 3.0 or 2.5 though.
Kevin, If that's the one I swapped for a drilled and tapped one from you it is definately a 3.0 one. :y
Ahh, yes, it probably is. :y
Kevin
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3.2 is easier to fit LPG to as there is far less
shite stuff in the way, no egr, no icv, no cruise box, no throttle cable all helps, and to my thinking it's better to convert as new a car as possible as you'll keep it longer and get better return on it. Although some don't agree. :-X
Lag may be related to omega mapping as it's partially present on my current stock petrol 3.2. which is quicker than my previous 3.2 for some reason so there is nout wrong with it.
So my current thinking (although this changes almost daily as we are still not sure on the cause of the lag) is to go with stag again, try the latest updated kit and possibly fit better injectors if needed, possibly prins as the stag ecu will run them apparently...
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...plus buy it before the vat hike on the 4th of Jan.
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Yep, more than happy to sort out the manifold in advance and I have a spare one here. Will have to dig it out and see if it's a 3.0 or 2.5 though.
I'm in 2 minds about the conversion. On one hand, if we have the opportunity to get the car on a lift and throw manpower at it I'm sure it will come together quickly. On the other hand, trying to do a conversion in a weekend is OK until something goes less than smoothly, as TheBoy's conversion proved. Then it turns into a nightmare. :-/
Kevin
Realistically, although it can be done in a weekend (We did Tunnie's in 2 and a half days) I would suggest 2 "sessions" for any fitting... First one to fit One end (front or rear plus pipe) second to do the other. That gives plenty of time for any little hiccups.
I still can't see how any more than 3/4 people can be an advantage... There's only so much space to work in ::) ::)
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So whats the best kit to buy???
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3.2 is easier to fit LPG to as there is far less shite stuff in the way, no egr, no icv, no cruise box, no throttle cable all helps, and to my thinking it's better to convert as new a car as possible as you'll keep it longer and get better return on it. Although some don't agree. :-X
Lag may be related to omega mapping as it's partially present on my current stock petrol 3.2. which is quicker than my previous 3.2 for some reason so there is nout wrong with it.
So my current thinking (although this changes almost daily as we are still not sure on the cause of the lag) is to go with stag again, try the latest updated kit and possibly fit better injectors if needed, possibly prins as the stag ecu will run them apparently...
Do you remember a drunken discussion, over a curry, about which LPG kit? You said Prins, I said Stag?
I'm having doubts, as I am now suffering the lag since recalibrating :o :o
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Well, IFIIK. :-?
Vat goes up 4th of Jan, and we have both completely changed our minds in a couple of weeks.
It's been a few degrees warmer the last couple of days, +4 c? Made any odds?
Current thoughts are "maaaaybe" it's an amplification of what's already there. So any sign of it on petrol? Not even the slightest microscopic hint? Ie wot 3rd gear about 5k, ping off the throttle, does it "b-ber" a tad on the over run immediately after?, rather than just "berrrrr" tailing off smoothly as it should. On my old car that was quite pronounced on gas, along with jolt/lag during gear changes. A guy at Tinley tech said, without seeing it, it was a mapping issue and should be possible to tune it out, but clearly something has changed on yours.
Does tech2 give it a clean bill of health? I'm also guessing you'll have checked all that....
Bah, where getting nowhere with this are we. :'(
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Well, IFIIK. :-?
Vat goes up 4th of Jan, and we have both completely changed our minds in a couple of weeks.
It's been a few degrees warmer the last couple of days, +4 c? Made any odds?
Current thoughts are "maaaaybe" it's an amplification of what's already there. So any sign of it on petrol? Not even the slightest microscopic hint? Ie wot 3rd gear about 5k, ping off the throttle, does it "b-ber" a tad on the over run immediately after?, rather than just "berrrrr" tailing off smoothly as it should. On my old car that was quite pronounced on gas, along with jolt/lag during gear changes. A guy at Tinley tech said, without seeing it, it was a mapping issue and should be possible to tune it out, but clearly something has changed on yours.
Does tech2 give it a clean bill of health? I'm also guessing you'll have checked all that....
Bah, where getting nowhere with this are we. :'(
The big difference this time is....
Original calibration (with KW/LD), it was being gunned for a lot of the time (until it got a monk on).
Next calibration (with KW at Oxford meet, on way to McD), I was trying my utter utmost (and failing miserably) to give RobseyMV6 a run for his money around the bypass whilst KW was trying to calibrate.
This calibration, Mrs TheBoy was driving, I was calibrating. The car has a tramline issue, it was icy, and she was doing a Miss Daisy impression...
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So whats the best kit to buy???
As discussed with TB and Kev over curry, and as TB has just mentioned, I was thinking of going for a prins kit, purely on the basis that it's considered the rolls Royce of LPG kits. Trouble is they refuse to sell it for diy fitting. Prof install only, and the front end kit is almost twice the price of stag.
Plus it's a total gamble if it will lag the same as a stag kit or not. So could well be a complete waist of money....
But suffice to say, we all know the stag kit well enough, it does a reasonable job for the money, but be aware you may have to drive around any minor hic ups, although my car had the worst lag when pressing on afaik..... Bottom line is we just don't know the cause, which is annoying when recommending to others.
.... I wonder if the guy who snapped up the prins kit off RobG has fitted it yet...?
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Well, IFIIK. :-?
Vat goes up 4th of Jan, and we have both completely changed our minds in a couple of weeks.
It's been a few degrees warmer the last couple of days, +4 c? Made any odds?
Current thoughts are "maaaaybe" it's an amplification of what's already there. So any sign of it on petrol? Not even the slightest microscopic hint? Ie wot 3rd gear about 5k, ping off the throttle, does it "b-ber" a tad on the over run immediately after?, rather than just "berrrrr" tailing off smoothly as it should. On my old car that was quite pronounced on gas, along with jolt/lag during gear changes. A guy at Tinley tech said, without seeing it, it was a mapping issue and should be possible to tune it out, but clearly something has changed on yours.
Does tech2 give it a clean bill of health? I'm also guessing you'll have checked all that....
Bah, where getting nowhere with this are we. :'(
The big difference this time is....
Original calibration (with KW/LD), it was being gunned for a lot of the time (until it got a monk on).
Next calibration (with KW at Oxford meet, on way to McD), I was trying my utter utmost (and failing miserably) to give RobseyMV6 a run for his money around the bypass whilst KW was trying to calibrate.
This calibration, Mrs TheBoy was driving, I was calibrating. The car has a tramline issue, it was icy, and she was doing a Miss Daisy impression...
...so did something change between the oxford calibration and the miss daisy calibration? Or was it just drifting out of tune because of the weather? The guy I was talking too re prins kit mentioned that fitting 8mill fuel pipe helps in cold weather, but I think we all already have that... Don't we?
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...so did something change between the oxford calibration and the miss daisy calibration? Or was it just drifting out of tune because of the weather? The guy I was talking too re prins kit mentioned that fitting 8mill fuel pipe helps in cold weather, but I think we all already have that... Don't we?
My point was, the other calibrations were done by ragging the tits off it, and I could count the total lags on the fingers of one hand.
Calibrated at Miss Daisy speeds, the thing can't do a redline 1st to 2nd change without the engine falling out the bottom of the car.
The last calibration was done in 2 journeys over about 80 miles, the green line was moving all the time, depending on if it was a motorway cruise, going through Oxford, or the roundabouts around the A43.
The O2 integrators were flying around (as they do on pre DBW engines), but were in right ballpark for the condition, and idle and partial load o2 settings were constant-ish (pre DBW don't have the short/long term trim readings)
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As to 8mm - mines polyflex, so I'd need Kevin Wood to confirm it was 8mm we used.
I'm running a multivalve, so borderline on a 3.0 at best, maybe the cold is reducing flow a tad? Maybe the vapouriser isn't man enough either (though gas temp looks good when warmed up)
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...so did something change between the oxford calibration and the miss daisy calibration? Or was it just drifting out of tune because of the weather? The guy I was talking too re prins kit mentioned that fitting 8mill fuel pipe helps in cold weather, but I think we all already have that... Don't we?
My point was, the other calibrations were done by ragging the tits off it, and I could count the total lags on the fingers of one hand.
Calibrated at Miss Daisy speeds, the thing can't do a redline 1st to 2nd change without the engine falling out the bottom of the car.
The last calibration was done in 2 journeys over about 80 miles, the green line was moving all the time, depending on if it was a motorway cruise, going through Oxford, or the roundabouts around the A43.
The O2 integrators were flying around (as they do on pre DBW engines), but were in right ballpark for the condition, and idle and partial load o2 settings were constant-ish (pre DBW don't have the short/long term trim readings)
Yep, understood the differance in calibration conditions, see where your coming from... but what made you re calibrate again for miss Daisy in the first place? Thinking about it, Iirc, did I read something changed after/during certification? Or something like?
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As to 8mm - mines polyflex, so I'd need Kevin Wood to confirm it was 8mm we used.
I'm running a multivalve, so borderline on a 3.0 at best, maybe the cold is reducing flow a tad? Maybe the vapouriser isn't man enough either (though gas temp looks good when warmed up)
I'm fairly sure it was 8mill tbh.
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...so did something change between the oxford calibration and the miss daisy calibration? Or was it just drifting out of tune because of the weather? The guy I was talking too re prins kit mentioned that fitting 8mill fuel pipe helps in cold weather, but I think we all already have that... Don't we?
My point was, the other calibrations were done by ragging the tits off it, and I could count the total lags on the fingers of one hand.
Calibrated at Miss Daisy speeds, the thing can't do a redline 1st to 2nd change without the engine falling out the bottom of the car.
The last calibration was done in 2 journeys over about 80 miles, the green line was moving all the time, depending on if it was a motorway cruise, going through Oxford, or the roundabouts around the A43.
The O2 integrators were flying around (as they do on pre DBW engines), but were in right ballpark for the condition, and idle and partial load o2 settings were constant-ish (pre DBW don't have the short/long term trim readings)
Yep, understood the differance in calibration conditions, see where your coming from... but what made you re calibrate again for miss Daisy in the first place? Thinking about it, Iirc, did I read something changed after/during certification? Or something like?
Emmissions fubar, and o2 BLMs hard pinned at one end of scale...
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IMHO, all issues of multivalve size, pipe size, cold weather, vapouriser, etc. can be eliminated by looking at the vapour pressure in the LPG tuning software. It will drop by perhaps 10% at full throttle but to cause a running issue would have to be worse than that IMHO.
Kevin
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Right, it's not a pressure issue, we've ruled that out already as Kevin says. I still think it can be tuned out, although I still haven't managed it on mine ::) I just drive around the issue.
Chris, when we calibrated yours at the Essex meet I thought we had it pretty good :-/ I know there was still a little bit of lag but felt it was pretty close to being right. It was certainly better than I've ever managed to get mine!
TB, interesting that since calibrating with a more "normal" driving style has brought the lag into play. Perhaps the answer is to calibrate it driving with plenty of enthusiasm :-/
What I do know is that the Stag kit is still the best option IMO! It's considerably cheaper than most of the competitors offerings and it is, essentially, just a combination of parts from well known manufacturers ;)
As for Teilo... I (personally) would still use him but would chase him hard until I have all my stuff sorted! As Tunnie has seen, I can get hold of him and get results pretty quickly for most things, although I am struggling to get in and see him to try and get the lag looked at ::) that said, I know a lot of people had difficulty getting hold of him and I don't feel I can recommend him as I used to :( If anyone wants to use him I'm more than happy to give them his details. You do get a kit that contains everything you need at a very good price :y
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My take on the calibration issue :-
The problem occurs at wide open throttle. During this phase of operation the engine is operating open-loop so, during calibration, you are not getting any feedback from the vehicle's ECU by way of changing injector times.
The automatic calibration extrapolates the idle fuelling to cover the wide-open-throttle part of the map but all that can really be done in this region is to check that the engine is not going lean.
I wonder if it's time to hook up a wideband lambda sensor to a car and actually tune this region properly?
The other aspect is that if a large fuel trim has built up, you will be chasing your tail, so, if possible, reset it, or at least run it on petrol for a while before calibrating.
The fact that calibration has made a difference (albeit in the wrong direction) in this case does give me some hope, actually.
Kevin