Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Vamps on 26 December 2010, 01:35:34
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There have been times in this poor weather that I have felt that the ABS kicking in has been more or a hindrance than a help, would be interested in others thoughts.... :)
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Ime of sailing through red traffic lights with abs banging away and not stopping at all, it's a case of over pressing the pedal I think V ? Getting the pressure on the dedal right in snow is a bit of a mare as there's no feel when the brakes start to bite so the tendency is to push the pedal further. Plenty of brake testing before the brakes are needed maybe?
Or am I teaching egg sucking? But yes once the abs is on in snow or ice, forget it. :(
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Ime of sailing through red traffic lights with abs banging away and not stopping at all, it's a case of over pressing the pedal I think V ? Getting the pressure on the dedal right in snow is a bit of a mare as there's no feel when the brakes start to bite so the tendency is to push the pedal further. Plenty of brake testing before the brakes are needed maybe?
Or am I teaching egg sucking? But yes once the abs is on in snow or ice, forget it. :(
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Not at all ::) I have found myself simply not stopping, regardless of how heavy on the pedal......I tend to drive constantly on the brake pedal to judge the road but have felt that ABS has lessened braking efficiency a few times, usually at lights or a junction... :)
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Lowered the tyre pressures? :-/
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When you're braking in fresh snow they reckon that you can stop better by locking up and the snow that builds up in front of the wheels will slow/stop the car quicker, when electronic ABS was still relatively new you could turn it off on Audis (?), AFAIK nobody gives you that option anymore. Overall though you're going to stop sooner with ABS than without it. When we had the last lot of snow, the Astra I was using didnt have ABS and although I think you drive differently because you know that it's now back up to you & you can't let the electrickery take over I always managed to stop, cadence braking if need be.
I found myself doing almost the same as Chris the other week. Even though it was -4o at 0630 it rained for as few minuntes as I was driving to work :o The roads turned to an instant ice rink. I braked to turn right but just carried on in a straight line with the ABS kicking away getting no where!! :-? It's a good job it was as early as it was & there were very few cars on the road, particularly in front of me. ;D
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Try NOT using your brakes! Drive at a speed slow enough and with enough prediction to make them not needed. Ive been doing the 3 mile journey too and from work for the last 2 weeks without touching the brakes except to hold me at the traffic lights.
eddie
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Try NOT using your brakes! Drive at a speed slow enough and with enough prediction to make them not needed. Ive been doing the 3 mile journey too and from work for the last 2 weeks without touching the brakes except to hold me at the traffic lights.
eddie
I bet the bloke driving behind you is pleased! ::) ::) ::)
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When you're braking in fresh snow they reckon that you can stop better by locking up and the snow that builds up in front of the wheels will slow/stop the car quicker, when electronic ABS was still relatively new you could turn it off on Audis (?), AFAIK nobody gives you that option anymore. Overall though you're going to stop sooner with ABS than without it. When we had the last lot of snow, the Astra I was using didnt have ABS and although I think you drive differently because you know that it's now back up to you & you can't let the electrickery take over I always managed to stop, cadence braking if need be.
I found myself doing almost the same as Chris the other week. Even though it was -4o at 0630 it rained for as few minuntes as I was driving to work :o The roads turned to an instant ice rink. I braked to turn right but just carried on in a straight line with the ABS kicking away getting no where!! :-? It's a good job it was as early as it was & there were very few cars on the road, particularly in front of me. ;D
Iirc, the some of the early ABS systems functioned dangerously bad in the snow, in some cases completely failing, which I beleive is why some manufacturers fitted the off switch..
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Personally I'd rather have than not, remembering trying to rapidly pump the brake pedal when under no control on ice. Having operated A/C with and without these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxaret, I know which I prefer. A different case I accept, but on balance still better IMHO. :y :y :y
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Personally I'd rather have than not, remembering trying to rapidly pump the brake pedal when under no control on ice. Having operated A/C with and without these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxaret, I know which I prefer. A different case I accept, but on balance still better IMHO. :y :y :y
I completely agree! :y The very few times when you might be better off without it are outweighed by the times when ABS wil get you out of the brown sticky stuff. ;) ;)
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If ABS won't stop you, then there probably isn't enough grip to stop any other way either, IMO
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to be honest don't know if A.B.S works on the omega as i have never used it..guess it does work as car as just passed it M.O.T :y
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to be honest don't know if A.B.S works on the omega as i have never used it..guess it does work as car as just passed it M.O.T :y
You mean the light goes off when it's supposed to do ;) . Your MOT doesn't check that it does work though. :y
Have you never made it operate? Years ago when my brother first got a car with ABS I suggested he find himself a wet cobbled bit of road (yes! we do still have a few up in the bleak north ;)) and stand on the brakes so he knew what to expect. He didn't, so when he had to stand on the brakes in anger, and the ABS kicked, he hadn't a clue what it was!
If you've never felt it kick I'd suggest that you do as I suggested to my brother. :y :y :y
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no deffo works just tried it!! :y
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no deffo works just tried it!! :y
so you know what it feels like under your foot! ;) :y :y
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yep thing is i drive a peugeot 308 for work (pile of ????) thats kicks in if you fart to loudly omega seems a bit more balanced :y
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Try NOT using your brakes! Drive at a speed slow enough and with enough prediction to make them not needed. Ive been doing the 3 mile journey too and from work for the last 2 weeks without touching the brakes except to hold me at the traffic lights.
eddie
I agree that in icy conditions that it is better to slow by using the engine as opposed to using the brake, except, it is still worth gently pressing the brake, if nothing more than to light the brake lights...
Personally, I find the gentle use of brakes a little reassuring, especally the num ber of emergency stops I have been forced to carry out recently due to dickhead drivers, pulling out in front of me (nearly every day recently, even when my clean lights are on)...
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you must drive within the conditions to ensure maximum capability and competance of driving
in some instances, situations are unpredectable, ie, an idiot pulling out in front of you
in icy and snowy conditions, drive much slower, be prepared to have to stop ten times sooner than you normally would
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armed with snow tires here is my experience and opinion
snow: abs rarely comes into play but of course brake usage proportional to environment and keeping necessary distances and arranging speed according to..
ice : abs suddenly triggers independent of braking power.. but imo abs definitely required as I feel I will never stop at all ;D and miggy suddenly stops :o
you cant simulate this press-depress intervals as quick as abs unit..
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No matter the conditions, "testing" the grip available is important IMO, as Andy says you can't anticipate the conditions until you know what the conditions are, which means knowing the grip available. Be it under acceleration or braking.
For instance we just spent a good 30 minutes doing 40 in a national speed limit, with traffic politely avoiding us, because the driver we where following from a restaurant knew it was a tad below zero, there for it was icy....when it bloody well wasn't. Refused to test the grip level and guessed, thereby causing everyone far more aggro including himself as he was afraid to use the brakes at junctions and was getting in everyones way. It works the other way too.
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Not at all ::) I have found myself simply not stopping, regardless of how heavy on the pedal......I tend to drive constantly on the brake pedal to judge the road but have felt that ABS has lessened braking efficiency a few times, usually at lights or a junction... :)
Not sure how you can judge that ABS has lessened brake efficiency, reality is the brakes will be fine, its the tyre surface interface its trying (and TBH does a bloody good job in achieving) to maximise.
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armed with snow tires here is my experience and opinion
snow: abs rarely comes into play but of course brake usage proportional to environment and keeping necessary distances and arranging speed according to..
ice : abs suddenly triggers independent of braking power.. but imo abs definitely required as I feel I will never stop at all ;D and miggy suddenly stops :o
you cant simulate this press-depress intervals as quick as abs unit..
I have to admit, I am starting to see the virtues of Winter tyres.... But, I am still not getting them... ::)
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armed with snow tires here is my experience and opinion
snow: abs rarely comes into play but of course brake usage proportional to environment and keeping necessary distances and arranging speed according to..
ice : abs suddenly triggers independent of braking power.. but imo abs definitely required as I feel I will never stop at all ;D and miggy suddenly stops :o
you cant simulate this press-depress intervals as quick as abs unit..
I have to admit, I am starting to see the virtues of Winter tyres.... But, I am still not getting them... ::)
once you start to use them, you will always prefer them .. no obvious reason to take more risk, other than money ;D which is also false economy when you crash..
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armed with snow tires here is my experience and opinion
snow: abs rarely comes into play but of course brake usage proportional to environment and keeping necessary distances and arranging speed according to..
ice : abs suddenly triggers independent of braking power.. but imo abs definitely required as I feel I will never stop at all ;D and miggy suddenly stops :o
you cant simulate this press-depress intervals as quick as abs unit..
I have to admit, I am starting to see the virtues of Winter tyres.... But, I am still not getting them... ::)
once you start to use them, you will always prefer them .. no obvious reason to take more risk, other than money ;D which is also false economy when you crash..
So don't crash! ::) ;D
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This is my first Winter driving the Disco; it`s a `95, so no ABS or TC......`seems to manage stopping tolerably on snow (probably down to reasonably 'tready' AT tyres)....but downhill braking on sheet-ice bends has given me a few 'moments' of "OMG" terror! :o
.....it`s desire to go straight-on when the wheels lock up can be moderated by quickly getting off the brake and immediately back on the throttle (to get all 4 wheels turning); but it`s seriously counter-intuitive and will take lots more Disco-on-ice experience for it to become second nature for when it`s needed in the heat of the moment. ;)
Can`t wait for the thaw and to get my beloved Miggy back in daily use. :-*
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I think the biggest issue with ABS in ice and snow is the user guide - "Keep brakes depressed hard". In ice and snow, the car has a tendency to go straight on when ABS is thumping away, unlike dry/wet conditions, so you have to lift off (which I reckon is the best think to do if the ABS activates in dry anyway (though only slightly in the dry))
There are times that locking the wheels would stop quicker (usually 'loose' surfaces), but I'd have ABS any day - thats the reason I ended up with a 1.6 Rover, not the diesel model I did fancy.
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This is my first Winter driving the Disco; it`s a `95, so no ABS or TC......`seems to manage stopping tolerably on snow (probably down to reasonably 'tready' AT tyres)....but downhill braking on sheet-ice bends has given me a few 'moments' of "OMG" terror! :o
.....it`s desire to go straight-on when the wheels lock up can be moderated by quickly getting off the brake and immediately back on the throttle (to get all 4 wheels turning); but it`s seriously counter-intuitive and will take lots more Disco-on-ice experience for it to become second nature for when it`s needed in the heat of the moment. ;)
Can`t wait for the thaw and to get my beloved Miggy back in daily use. :-*
Debs ABS system ;D :y
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yep thing is i drive a peugeot 308 for work (pile of ????) thats kicks in if you fart to loudly omega seems a bit more balanced :y
IME That's another difference between FWD and RWD. FWD engineers have to compromise braking grip suspension geometry etc in order to get traction grip. RWD always has more resilience / flexibility / general "plant" on the ground under heavy braking.
RWD doesn't have to make the braking / acceleration compromise. Notice how light the Omega front wheels go under max acceleration.
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
ABS utilizes the difference between kinetic and static friction coefficients which are different..
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Anyone who is of the opinion that "stamping on the brakes" will give "100% of the available braking force" needs to do a session on a skid pan. ;)
Kevin
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Wow :o
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
2 of those sentences contradict each other :-/
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Anyone who is of the opinion that "stamping on the brakes" will give "100% of the available braking force" needs to do a session on a skid pan. ;)
Kevin
or needs ABS..........
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Anyone who is of the opinion that "stamping on the brakes" will give "100% of the available braking force" needs to do a session on a skid pan. ;)
Kevin
or needs ABS..........
.. and, therefore, by definition, can't drive properly. :-X
Kevin
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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LoyiFuqKc[/media]
not the advert i was looking for.. but it will do.
abs was invented for those that dont realise that a locked wheel does little for steering around things like white van man in the wet!
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....
abs was invented for .....
aircraft ;)
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Wow :o
It's a one word answer Chris, but not quite the same one as I was thinking of. ::) ::) ::)
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
Wow :o
It's a one word answer Chris, but not quite the same one as I was thinking of. ::) ::) ::)
It actually took me some considerable time to come up with that, it's the first printable one on the list down in about 15th place. :-X
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
You wouldn't want 100% of the braking force if you were skidding, this is when ABS kicks in, it puts the brakes on and off many times per second so that your car doesn't just plough ahead in a skid, you can still steer whilst maintaining most of the braking force
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The important thing about ABS is that it is working all 4 brakes individually to use all available traction from each wheel.
Unless you have 4 brake pedals and 4 right feet to operate them you can't come close with a manual setup. ;)
Kevin
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I stand by my comment that a.b.s. is for people who do not have a proper understanding of vehicle handling characteristics.
I have spent most of my working life driving different types of commercial vans and trucks.
Why do vehicles for 'professional' drivers usually not have this 'driver aid' fitted?
Why do rally cars not have a.b.s. fitted?
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The important thing about ABS is that it is working all 4 brakes individually to use all available traction from each wheel.
Unless you have 4 brake pedals and 4 right feet to operate them you can't come close with a manual setup. ;)
Kevin
Only on 4 channel systems, 3 channel systems, as fitted to pre 1998 Omegas (and plenty of other cars), have independent control of each front, but control the rear as a pair...
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I stand by my comment that a.b.s. is for people who do not have a proper understanding of vehicle handling characteristics.
I have spent most of my working life driving different types of commercial vans and trucks.
Why do vehicles for 'professional' drivers usually not have this 'driver aid' fitted?
Why do rally cars not have a.b.s. fitted?
Rally cars need the ability to lock occasionally. And most rally drivers are a far better driver than you or I will ever be. F1 cars would have ABS if it wasn't banned - and if the (supposedly) best drivers in the world could benefit from it, despite the extra weight/complexity/reliability.....
As a rule, those people who reckon they can do better than a modern ABS system in a family car have egos far larger than their abilities IMHO
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I stand by my comment that a.b.s. is for people who do not have a proper understanding of vehicle handling characteristics.
I have spent most of my working life driving different types of commercial vans and trucks.
Why do vehicles for 'professional' drivers usually not have this 'driver aid' fitted?
Why do rally cars not have a.b.s. fitted?
as with most things, new tech is expensive and in the case of abs when launched only fitted to the top spec motors (or planes first andy b)
as the cost comes down, it gets fitted to eveything else.
vans, trucks, especially when coupled to multi axle trailers .
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2FKIHWoVfM[/media]
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Maximum braking effect (or speed retardation) is achieved in that smallest instant immediately prior to brake wheel lockup.
ABS allows the mechanicals of the car to read when lockup occurs and momentarily release the brakes and thereafter reapply them, thus getting maximum braking effect for the maximum time available.
I know that reads like its teaching the lost art of egg sucking but, that said, if you could manually cadence brake whilst selecting wheel lockup independant of the other 3 (or pair, dependant on system fitted) then yes, ABS would not be required.
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...., new tech is expensive and in the case of abs when launched only fitted to the top spec motors ....
Excluding Jensen's MAxaret based mechanical ABS ..... wasn't it a top range BMW? :-/
as the cost comes down, it gets fitted to eveything else.
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and the MK III Granda was the first mass produced car to be fitted with eletronic ABS across the range. - and it's now bloody expensive to try to sort out, £160 for a wheel sensor :o
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I dont think the Omega system is a particularily good one though tbh. It seems a bit crude/basic imo. :-/
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I dont think the Omega system is a particularily good one though tbh. It seems a bit crude/basic imo. :-/
why? :-/
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I dont think the Omega system is a particularily good one though tbh. It seems a bit crude/basic imo. :-/
Same Bosch 5.3 system fitted to most execs from that era ;)
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Well, for example, I was driving a 2004 Merc Viano recently - posh minibus, with leather/auto etc - and I was convinced that the ABS was more effective yet a lot less noticeable in operation on the icy surface than the Omega version.
I was also impressed with its autobox.
My old 1998 Cclass was different though. The ABS on that was totally unpredictable and random. Not sure if there was something wrong with it or just a shite design.
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I've never understood how stopping the brake pads from touching the brake disc improves braking?
I'd rather stamp on the brakes and know that I was getting 100% of the available braking force.
A.B.S. is for people who can't drive properly!
ABS utilizes the difference between kinetic and static friction coefficients which are different..
[sun glasses on] ;D
this explains in more detail..
http://engineerography.com/2009/07/how-the-abs-works-its-the-static-and-kinetic-friction/
http://academic.greensboroday.org/~regesterj/potl/Mechanics/Friction/FrictionA.htm
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I dont think the Omega system is a particularily good one though tbh. It seems a bit crude/basic imo. :-/
not sure its crude or basic, but does the job..at least faster than my feet ;D
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There have been times in this poor weather that I have felt that the ABS kicking in has been more or a hindrance than a help, would be interested in others thoughts.... :)
Brought this up in annother thread a while ago, when hannu mikkola helped develpe the quatro for rallying, it was found it was best turned off in snow, the theory was that with the wheels locked up the snow would build a wedge under the tryes. So they fitted a swtch to turn the ABS off, which is what I was askinf.
But not all cars, drivers and weather conditions are equal. :-/
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But not all...drivers...are equal. :-/
Very true, if you all were as good as me then you would also realize that a.b.s. is for people who can't drive(!)
:y
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if you all were as good as me then you would also realize that a.b.s. is for people who can't drive(!)
As a rule, those people who reckon they can do better than a modern ABS system in a family car have egos far larger than their abilities IMHO
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As a rule, those people who reckon they can do better than a modern ABS system in a family car have egos far larger than their abilities IMHO
There are exceptions...
(If I crash within the next 5 and a 1/2 minutes I hope you realize you will be to blame for 'cursing' me) :y
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Maximum braking effect (or speed retardation) is achieved in that smallest instant immediately prior to brake wheel lockup.
ABS allows the mechanicals of the car to read when lockup occurs and momentarily release the brakes and thereafter reapply them, thus getting maximum braking effect for the maximum time available.
.... if you could manually cadence brake whilst selecting wheel lockup independant of the other 3 (or pair, dependant on system fitted) then yes, ABS would not be required.
Brikhead - OK, you are wonderfull. :-*
How do you manage to brake each locking wheel independantly of the other from the drivers seat? Or be better than the highlit part above? Let us mere mortals in on the secret.... ;D