Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: aaronjb on 13 January 2011, 21:30:39

Title: How many gears would you like?
Post by: aaronjb on 13 January 2011, 21:30:39
How about a 9-speed automatic transmission (http://www.leftlanenews.com/detroit-zf-unveils-worlds-first-9-speed-automatic-transmission.html) - small enough to fit in a transverse engined FWD package.
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Welung666 on 13 January 2011, 21:35:24
I miss the gearbox in my 580 Volvo.... triple split 7, low, med and high for each gear = 21 total :P
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: aaronjb on 13 January 2011, 21:37:36
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I miss the gearbox in my 580 Volvo.... triple split 7, low, med and high for each gear = 21 total :P

I don't think that would fit into your average Ford Focus, though!  ;D
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 13 January 2011, 21:55:11
for me even 5 speed auto is something new ;D ;D
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Andyb on 14 January 2011, 10:36:47
last auto i had was a 3 speed lol
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: henryd on 14 January 2011, 10:57:38
I had a bmw 535d in yesterday,6 speed auto and 276 bhp plus enough torque to slow the earths rotation :D,one very quick diesel. lovely autobox,although why it needs 6 gears is beyond me
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: feeutfo on 14 January 2011, 13:06:59
Guessing better acceleration, lower individual gears will run out of puff at higher speeds, so add more gears to make up the differance.

Same reason the omega 5 speed manual gives better acceleration and economy over the 3 speed auto, and why modern manuals are mostly 6 speed. Makes sense although 9 gears seems excessive, they must have thier reasons to develop such a thing.

Would love to see the innards. 
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: aaronjb on 14 January 2011, 13:21:57
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Same reason the omega 5 speed manual gives better acceleration and economy over the 3 speed auto, and why modern manuals are mostly 6 speed. Makes sense although 9 gears seems excessive, they must have thier reasons to develop such a thing.

It seems to me that as engines become more and more advanced and highly tuned (chasing fuel economy) that the usable efficient power band gets narrower and narrower. I guess it's much easier to tune an engine (and, more importantly, intake & exhaust) to be hugely efficient in a narrow band than 'largely efficient' over a wide band with the use of VVT/L and/or variable intakes..

Lots and lots of gears (that automatically change) mean you can keep the engine in a tiny powerband more of the time, which means better fuel economy under normal driving conditions (and not just cruising)..

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Would love to see the innards. 

Ditto, it's quite some feat to fit it all into something that looks so small! I imagine it wouldn't fare well with a high torque motor, but then it's presumably really designed for the Prius-alikes.
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: djac on 14 January 2011, 13:26:32
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Same reason the omega 5 speed manual gives better acceleration and economy over the 3 speed auto, and why modern manuals are mostly 6 speed. Makes sense although 9 gears seems excessive, they must have thier reasons to develop such a thing.

It seems to me that as engines become more and more advanced and highly tuned (chasing fuel economy) that the usable efficient power band gets narrower and narrower. I guess it's much easier to tune an engine (and, more importantly, intake & exhaust) to be hugely efficient in a narrow band than 'largely efficient' over a wide band with the use of VVT/L and/or variable intakes..

Lots and lots of gears (that automatically change) mean you can keep the engine in a tiny powerband more of the time, which means better fuel economy under normal driving conditions (and not just cruising)..

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Would love to see the innards. 

Ditto, it's quite some feat to fit it all into something that looks so small! I imagine it wouldn't fare well with a high torque motor, but then it's presumably really designed for the Prius-alikes.

Does that mean we will end up with something more like the CVT 'gearboxes' like the old Daf Variomatic or the ones fitted to Micras etc? No 'gears' at all, just an (almost) inifinite number of ratios?
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: aaronjb on 14 January 2011, 13:44:38
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Does that mean we will end up with something more like the CVT 'gearboxes' like the old Daf Variomatic or the ones fitted to Micras etc? No 'gears' at all, just an (almost) inifinite number of ratios?

That's an interesting question - you'd imagine that logically a CVT that never has to swap cogs in any way ought to be faster and more efficient in all circumstances.. presumably there's a technological reason why it's better to produce many-geared gearboxes, though.

I know Nissan had a CVT at one point - the bubble-shaped Micras came with it as an option, and it's since disappeared from their lineup. Mechanical problems or just rarely bought, I wonder?
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 January 2011, 13:58:59
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It seems to me that as engines become more and more advanced and highly tuned (chasing fuel economy) that the usable efficient power band gets narrower and narrower. I guess it's much easier to tune an engine (and, more importantly, intake & exhaust) to be hugely efficient in a narrow band than 'largely efficient' over a wide band with the use of VVT/L and/or variable intakes..

Lots and lots of gears (that automatically change) mean you can keep the engine in a tiny powerband more of the time, which means better fuel economy under normal driving conditions (and not just cruising)..

Nail on head. There is a direct trade-off between flexibility and efficiency of an engine, hence the appearance of elaborate variable valve timing setups even on plodding cars where it's certainly not there for performance.

Hybrids, too. Most of the advantage gained from a hybrid is that the engine can be a total dog of a "generator engine" that works properly at one speed only and the car is still broadly drivable. ;)

More gears mean a narrower power band is acceptable.

I just hope the gear changes are barely perceptible because there's nothing I hate more than an umpteen speed auto that's up and down the box all the ruddy time such as the DSG.

Kevin
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: feeutfo on 14 January 2011, 15:04:25
Really like the DSG personally, I like the way it changes gear, and enjoy the experience of it doing so as often as possible, within reason. It's ......different .... Surges almost, as it changes, as if a bit too quick with the clutch on a manual.

But that aside yes it could be very annoying if it does not change gear efficiently.
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 14 January 2011, 15:07:59
TBH, the wifes new VVT based 1.6 has a very flat torque delivery and hence it suits a 5 pseed very well.

My diesel needs a 6 speed box to keep it on the boil.

The V6 Omegas work well on a 5 speed (and ok on a 4 speed auto)
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: TheBoy on 14 January 2011, 15:20:26
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TBH, the wifes new VVT based 1.6 has a very flat torque delivery and hence it suits a 5 pseed very well.

My diesel needs a 6 speed box to keep it on the boil.

The V6 Omegas work well on a 5 speed (and ok on a 4 speed auto)
The flat delivery means it works very well imho, given that neither option is exactly a sporty setup :y

I do feel the auto could benefit another, just to improve acceleration a tad, particularly in that 0 to 65mph range, lengthening (what would be) 3rd out to 100ish. Popping into top could stay at the just under 130mph point.
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: feeutfo on 14 January 2011, 15:24:45
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TBH, the wifes new VVT based 1.6 has a very flat torque delivery and hence it suits a 5 pseed very well.

My diesel needs a 6 speed box to keep it on the boil.

The V6 Omegas work well on a 5 speed (and ok on a 4 speed auto)
The flat delivery means it works very well imho, given that neither option is exactly a sporty setup :y

I do feel the auto could benefit another, just to improve acceleration a tad, particularly in that 0 to 65mph range, lengthening (what would be) 3rd out to 100ish. Popping into top could stay at the just under 130mph point.
Sourcing a European 5 speed was on my list of upgrades once, not sure I could be bothered now, but shouldn't be too difficult once found, presumably?
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 14 January 2011, 15:25:36
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Really like the DSG personally, I like the way it changes gear, and enjoy the experience of it doing so as often as possible, within reason. It's ......different .... Surges almost, as it changes, as if a bit too quick with the clutch on a manual.

But that aside yes it could be very annoying if it does not change gear efficiently.


There great on the upshift and pretty poor on the downshift, particularly when driving with a bit of enthusiasm.  :y
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: TheBoy on 14 January 2011, 15:26:56
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TBH, the wifes new VVT based 1.6 has a very flat torque delivery and hence it suits a 5 pseed very well.

My diesel needs a 6 speed box to keep it on the boil.

The V6 Omegas work well on a 5 speed (and ok on a 4 speed auto)
The flat delivery means it works very well imho, given that neither option is exactly a sporty setup :y

I do feel the auto could benefit another, just to improve acceleration a tad, particularly in that 0 to 65mph range, lengthening (what would be) 3rd out to 100ish. Popping into top could stay at the just under 130mph point.
Sourcing a European 5 speed was on my list of upgrades once, not sure I could be bothered now, but shouldn't be too difficult once found, presumably?
You'd need to rewrite the TCM's map, as the 5 speed is for Y25DT motor...
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: feeutfo on 14 January 2011, 15:28:56
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TBH, the wifes new VVT based 1.6 has a very flat torque delivery and hence it suits a 5 pseed very well.

My diesel needs a 6 speed box to keep it on the boil.

The V6 Omegas work well on a 5 speed (and ok on a 4 speed auto)
The flat delivery means it works very well imho, given that neither option is exactly a sporty setup :y
Good job I can't be bothered then... ;D
I do feel the auto could benefit another, just to improve acceleration a tad, particularly in that 0 to 65mph range, lengthening (what would be) 3rd out to 100ish. Popping into top could stay at the just under 130mph point.
Sourcing a European 5 speed was on my list of upgrades once, not sure I could be bothered now, but shouldn't be too difficult once found, presumably?
You'd need to rewrite the TCM's map, as the 5 speed is for Y25DT motor...
Good job I can't be bothered then.  ;D
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: feeutfo on 14 January 2011, 15:37:38
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Really like the DSG personally, I like the way it changes gear, and enjoy the experience of it doing so as often as possible, within reason. It's ......different .... Surges almost, as it changes, as if a bit too quick with the clutch on a manual.

But that aside yes it could be very annoying if it does not change gear efficiently.


There great on the upshift and pretty poor on the downshift, particularly when driving with a bit of enthusiasm.  :y
Er yeah, seem to remember being less impressed on the down shifts, her Golf had it, lovely car, long gone since.  She wouldn't let me play too much  ::)
Title: Re: How many gears would you like?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 January 2011, 16:20:26
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Really like the DSG personally, I like the way it changes gear, and enjoy the experience of it doing so as often as possible, within reason. It's ......different .... Surges almost, as it changes, as if a bit too quick with the clutch on a manual.

But that aside yes it could be very annoying if it does not change gear efficiently.


There great on the upshift and pretty poor on the downshift, particularly when driving with a bit of enthusiasm.  :y
Er yeah, seem to remember being less impressed on the down shifts, her Golf had it, lovely car, long gone since.  She wouldn't let me play too much  ::)


It's just the sheer number of gear changes when pootling about that annoyed me. Pull away gently from the lights and it's gone from 1,2,3, before you even notice you're moving, then a few  mm more throttle travel and it's back down to 2. Ease off and coast and it changes up a couple of times. I can't really explain why I hate it so much but all the frenetic changes up and down the box made it almost as tedious as if I was changing manually.

Technically, it's the perfect gearbox, of course (It was designed by Germans, so it must be ;)) but I found the driving experience awful. Not to mention the "paying to get it fixed" experience that seems to be commonplace.

Perhaps they should make one that block changes up and down 2 gears at a time, say, if you're just pootling?  ;) That should give the development guys a headache. ;D

Kevin