Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: mr carl on 19 June 2011, 17:40:06
-
someone other than me must have thought of doing this before....
i dont want "better fuel consumption" or a "flattened torque curve"
if i wanted either of these things i would have bought a diesel corsa
someone on this site must have removed theirs at some point, how did you do it?
i want to hear, why i should leave the multirams alone, and i want to hear other reasons why i should rip out/bypass the whole thing
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
lol is it really that bad without it connected? its not as simple as just dissconnecting it though otherwise i would have tried it..
surly it would have to be bypassed otherwise the valves would stay shut?
-
Why would they spend a lot on the induction system unless it was beniificial.
Some of the valves improve high RPM air intake
-
you could do an experiment - take it off and just have two big flexible pipes sticking out the from where the grill would be and running back to the intake at the throttle bodies. Then take it for a blast and see what happens.proof of the pudding etc....
-
Why would they spend a lot on the induction system unless it was beniificial.
Some of the valves improve high RPM air intake
thats exactly what i thought, but then with more thought i came to the conclusion that the calibra/cav works just fine without the multi ram
"why would they spend a lot on the induction system unless it was beniificial"
i dont know, you tell me?
when tuning for power one normally takes out all restrictions and most even go as far as shaving off fractions of a mm off the throttle plates, and even removing the traction control.
i have read that the multiram is there to help fuel consumption and flatten the torque curve....why is this benificial?
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
lol is it really that bad without it connected? its not as simple as just dissconnecting it though otherwise i would have tried it..
surly it would have to be bypassed otherwise the valves would stay shut?
It connects the two sides of the intake, or not, depending. Same as the one in the plenum which connects the two sides. It doesn't shut anything off at all.
So why is not simple? Take the intake off and look for yourself...
:-?
-
you could do an experiment - take it off and just have two big flexible pipes sticking out the from where the grill would be and running back to the intake at the throttle bodies. Then take it for a blast and see what happens.proof of the pudding etc....
it would have to be more controlled than that though due to the placebo effect...
someone somewhere has done this, i just want to know their story, what conclusion they have come to with their handy work.
what are the pro's of removing the multi rams, what are the con's...did they put it on the rollers etc etc...
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
lol is it really that bad without it connected? its not as simple as just dissconnecting it though otherwise i would have tried it..
surly it would have to be bypassed otherwise the valves would stay shut?
It connects the two sides of the intake, or not, depending. Same as the one in the plenum which connects the two sides. It doesn't shut anything off at all.
So why is not simple? Take the intake off and look for yourself...
:-?
so its just two metal tunnels?
i didnt know that, if you dont ask questions then you dont learn ;D
and if no one ever said "what if i did that" we would be stuck in the stone age.....i like to ask questions, i like to learn and discover lol :y
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
-
Let me ask you a q or two then.
Why mess with something that ain't broke?
Why assume I five minute fiddle would make it better, over god knows how many hours of development to tune an engine to a certain size and weight car designed for carrying passengers in comfort as quickly as possible?
Why does the " slap on a cone filter "(I realize that's not the question but the mentality is the same) approach automatically mean it must be better?
Why not take the approach that GM must have put it there for good reason.
What I really want to know is, why does re connecting the two sides of the previously split intake post maf affect the power delivery?
I suspect it's to do with intake flow rates at high and low rpm. Why exactly that is I'm not sure. Knowing the positions of the m.ram valves at certain rpm would give a clue I suppose. Difficult to tell when it's all fitted together though.
Awaits a post from master DTM... And runs off to look at the guide in maintenance. ;D
-
Let me ask you a q or two then.
Why mess with something that ain't broke?
Why assume I five minute fiddle would make it better, over god knows how many hours of development to tune an engine to a certain size and weight car designed for carrying passengers in comfort as quickly as possible?
Why does the " slap on a cone filter "(I realize that's not the question but the mentality is the same) approach automatically mean it must be better?
Why not take the approach that GM must have put it there for good reason.
What I really want to know is, why does re connecting the two sides of the previously split intake post maf affect the power delivery?
I suspect it's to do with intake flow rates at high and low rpm. Why exactly that is I'm not sure. Knowing the positions of the m.ram valves at certain rpm would give a clue I suppose. Difficult to tell when it's all fitted together though.
Awaits a post from master DTM... And runs off to look at the guide in maintenance. ;D
In simplistic terms, you tune the engine power with the length of the intake (eg, remember YPVS on 1980s Yamahas). The multirams, in effect, are adjusting the intake length.
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
What, decatted with no silencers? I'll think you find they do :-X. In fact, I know someone looking at getting rid of one, and putting a normal, cheap exhaust on in order to recover a whole heap of lost power from the car caused by 'upgrades'.
-
Let me ask you a q or two then.
Why mess with something that ain't broke?
Why assume I five minute fiddle would make it better, over god knows how many hours of development to tune an engine to a certain size and weight car designed for carrying passengers in comfort as quickly as possible?
Why does the " slap on a cone filter "(I realize that's not the question but the mentality is the same) approach automatically mean it must be better?
Why not take the approach that GM must have put it there for good reason.
What I really want to know is, why does re connecting the two sides of the previously split intake post maf affect the power delivery?
I suspect it's to do with intake flow rates at high and low rpm. Why exactly that is I'm not sure. Knowing the positions of the m.ram valves at certain rpm would give a clue I suppose. Difficult to tell when it's all fitted together though.
Awaits a post from master DTM... And runs off to look at the guide in maintenance. ;D
In simplistic terms, you tune the engine power with the length of the intake (eg, remember YPVS on 1980s Yamahas). The multirams, in effect, are adjusting the intake length.
Aeye. Was trying go remember what length gives better flow at high and low rpm and all the malarky. Although ypvs and exup are all exhaust tune related. ;)
Yamaha now have a system for raising or lowering bell mouths to suit rpm too.
-
Let me ask you a q or two then.
Why mess with something that ain't broke?
Why assume I five minute fiddle would make it better, over god knows how many hours of development to tune an engine to a certain size and weight car designed for carrying passengers in comfort as quickly as possible?
Why does the " slap on a cone filter "(I realize that's not the question but the mentality is the same) approach automatically mean it must be better?
Why not take the approach that GM must have put it there for good reason.
What I really want to know is, why does re connecting the two sides of the previously split intake post maf affect the power delivery?
I suspect it's to do with intake flow rates at high and low rpm. Why exactly that is I'm not sure. Knowing the positions of the m.ram valves at certain rpm would give a clue I suppose. Difficult to tell when it's all fitted together though.
Awaits a post from master DTM... And runs off to look at the guide in maintenance. ;D
if it isnt broke, then brake it....and then fix it lol
i dont know, i like to know the ins and outs of everything. i like to know how stuff works, how it can be improved, if it can be improved at all that is.
its just the way my mind works :D
-
One word - Turbulence.
I shant bother going into detail, because for one, it's boring, for two, it's not easy to explain without a wind tunnel to give a visual reference.
The Multi-Ram setup is there for a reason.
The reason it is not fitted to the Cav/Calibra is because it wouldn't fit...... Oh, and if you have driven a 3.0 V6 Cavalier/Calibra, it doesn't work fine at all. The torque curve is terrible (even for a V6) and the usable power is limited to say the least. Fortunately the small weight of the Cav/Calibra makes the engine output enough. Remove the Multi-Rams from an Omega and you'll be wondering if you're driving a V6 at all! :y
-
Everything can be improved upon, but its usually not as easy as we would like it to be. :y
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
By 'flatten' that doesn't mean 'squash' or 'lower', but remove the troughs (flatspots) that plague the chavalier and calibra. Does that make sense?
You are right to want to try to improve things, thats how progress happens. But you'll struggle to improve on whats there easily
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
What, decatted with no silencers? I'll think you find they do :-X. In fact, I know someone looking at getting rid of one, and putting a normal, cheap exhaust on in order to recover a whole heap of lost power from the car caused by 'upgrades'.
no i meant what i said, back boxes...i cant find any online....anywhere :o i can find std ones where the exit pipe is the same diameter as a single pipe going in to the backbox...that must be some what restricting when you are taking two of the middle pipes and reducing the size to the single exit hole?
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
By 'flatten' that doesn't mean 'squash' or 'lower', but remove the troughs (flatspots) that plague the chavalier and calibra. Does that make sense?
You are right to want to try to improve things, thats how progress happens. But you'll struggle to improve on whats there easily
yes that does make sense, although tbh i dont really know the problems the cav/calibra suffer with.
thats cool, now i am getting somewhere, knollage is power and all that :)
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
What, decatted with no silencers? I'll think you find they do :-X. In fact, I know someone looking at getting rid of one, and putting a normal, cheap exhaust on in order to recover a whole heap of lost power from the car caused by 'upgrades'.
no i meant what i said, back boxes...i cant find any online....anywhere :o i can find std ones where the exit pipe is the same diameter as a single pipe going in to the backbox...that must be some what restricting when you are taking two of the middle pipes and reducing the size to the single exit hole?
THe 3.0 backboxes have twin outlets. Though ones I've driven with single outlet didn't seem down on power :-/. Probably because the 2.5/3.0 manifolds are so restrictive anyway ;D
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
I think you are mistaking the wording. A Torque Curve should be as balanced as possible (something that a V6 does quite nicely in most applications). GM, however used the Multi-Ram setup to further BALANCE the torque/power.
GM arent the only ones to use this, other manufacturers do too under different names.
It's a very impressive way to 'in layman's terms' create the effect of Variable Valve Timing without the associated mechanical workings.
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
I think you are mistaking the wording. A Torque Curve should be as balanced as possible (something that a V6 does quite nicely in most applications). GM, however used the Multi-Ram setup to further BALANCE the torque/power.
GM arent the only ones to use this, other manufacturers do too under different names.
It's a very impressive way to 'in layman's terms' create the effect of Variable Valve Timing without the associated mechanical workings.
so they are maniulating the torque curve to use it more effectively at different stages in the rpm range?
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
What, decatted with no silencers? I'll think you find they do :-X. In fact, I know someone looking at getting rid of one, and putting a normal, cheap exhaust on in order to recover a whole heap of lost power from the car caused by 'upgrades'.
no i meant what i said, back boxes...i cant find any online....anywhere :o i can find std ones where the exit pipe is the same diameter as a single pipe going in to the backbox...that must be some what restricting when you are taking two of the middle pipes and reducing the size to the single exit hole?
THe 3.0 backboxes have twin outlets. Though ones I've driven with single outlet didn't seem down on power :-/. Probably because the 2.5/3.0 manifolds are so restrictive anyway ;D
this is what i mean, the diameter of the backbox exit pipe is the same size as a single pipe going into the backbox
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/IMAG0107.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/IMAG0108.jpg)
do you see what i mean, its like a funnel....gasses going in fast, but exiting slow due to the single bore
-
:)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153840176
that writing leaves a lot to question....and says "flattens out the torque curve" the only part that bothers me is why? why would they want to flatten it out?
I think you are mistaking the wording. A Torque Curve should be as balanced as possible (something that a V6 does quite nicely in most applications). GM, however used the Multi-Ram setup to further BALANCE the torque/power.
GM arent the only ones to use this, other manufacturers do too under different names.
It's a very impressive way to 'in layman's terms' create the effect of Variable Valve Timing without the associated mechanical workings.
so they are maniulating the torque curve to use it more effectively at different stages in the rpm range?
Yes and No.
Yes, because the literally wording you have used is correct.
No becuase you'll take it that more torque could be had at 'a given point'.
Torque is an extremely difficult force to explain (Clarkson esq) lol.
Do me a favour if you would...... go and unplug your rear mult-ram. Take your car around the block and notice it will be less than before under 4k revs.
Then reconnect it and disconnect the front multi-ram. This will make it less powerful above 4k revs.
Then come back and ask WHY they are there!
Or, add a couple of resisters to the plugs, remove the whole lot and see what happens.
You'll have a nigh on 2tonne Cavalier.
Good luck! :y
-
Yep. As Mark says...
You need to consider that for optimum torque you need high air speed in the inlet........so if the inlet is small and long you get high inlet airspeed at low revs but a restriction at high revs (good bottom end torque but nothing higher in the rev range), if its short and large you get low inlet air speed at low revs and good inlet air speed at high revs (no bottom end torque)......the multiram allows a good compromise on both i.e. high air speed at low revs and high air speed with low restriction at high revs.....its a dam good system.
-
I see enough Omegas with non-functional multirams, and they are gutless. Owners are always amazed at the difference when you fix it.
To test, simply remove the vac pipe between the solenoid and the actuator. Flat as a Witch's Tit will be your conclusion.
The intake on the Omega is actually not that limiting. Far from it. Every single attempt I've seen to 'improve' it, staying normally aspirated, has been a downgrade.
Lastly, just because the likes of those retards at Courtney Sport say something will improve things, that doesn't make it so. A proper tuning company is a different story, but note that no proper tuning company has made a new intake for the Omega ;)
sweet, i will give it a go.....but also note, no one makes a simple back box for a omega either :y
What, decatted with no silencers? I'll think you find they do :-X. In fact, I know someone looking at getting rid of one, and putting a normal, cheap exhaust on in order to recover a whole heap of lost power from the car caused by 'upgrades'.
no i meant what i said, back boxes...i cant find any online....anywhere :o i can find std ones where the exit pipe is the same diameter as a single pipe going in to the backbox...that must be some what restricting when you are taking two of the middle pipes and reducing the size to the single exit hole?
THe 3.0 backboxes have twin outlets. Though ones I've driven with single outlet didn't seem down on power :-/. Probably because the 2.5/3.0 manifolds are so restrictive anyway ;D
this is what i mean, the diameter of the backbox exit pipe is the same size as a single pipe going into the backbox
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/IMAG0107.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/IMAG0108.jpg)
do you see what i mean, its like a funnel....gasses going in fast, but exiting slow due to the single bore
NO NO NO NO NO!
The boxes are resonance boxes. They are there to remove the sound only. GM put a twin exit exhaust on the 3.0 and a single exit on the 2.5. Why? I dont really know as both work just as well with either back-box on.
Why do little boys put baked bean cans on the back of a 106? MORE POWAHHHHHH! Obviously!
-
3.0 twin exit box is for show. Oh the irony. ;D
It's a silencer first and foremost. It is not restrictive with either exit.
-
as simple as I can put it....
the shape of the power curve is determined by a) the cam spec, b) the compression ratio and c) the inake ram pipe diameter and length.
large, short ram pipes, together with high compression and long duration cams = a top-heavy power curve (all the power at the top end)
small, long ram pipes, together with low compression and shorter cams = a low-rev biased power curve.
If the manufacturer can't fit variable compression or variable cam timing, then one thing that can be altered is the length of the ram pipes.
In an admittedly small way, the multi-ram system takes the first part of the power curve from the long rams, adds this to a middle part from medium rams and adds that to the high-end from the short rams. The result is better low-end power, better mid-range power and better high-end power.
you're maybe gaining 10 BHP by leaving the system in place.
-
as simple as I can put it....
sorry, that's a bit condescending. It would be very easy for me to put too much detail into this - I almost did a Masters degree in cam timing and inlet system design at one point.
-
Go on....
-
I, for one, am interested to understand more about how compression ratio affects the torque curve - all I've ever really understood about it is lowering to prevent pre-ignition on forced induction engines :)
-
it's about cylinder filling really. If you have long-duration cams, then at low revs a lot of the intake mixture will get blown back out of the inlet, so the cylinder may be only 50% full. An over-high compression ratio will help to redress the balance.
Usually, CR is worked out using cylinder full and clyinder empty. A more realistic method is to use cylinder contents at inlet valve closure point. This gives a link into the cam spec and how that affects the torque curve.
In general, you need as high a dynamic CR as possible to give the best power and economy, but not to stray into pre-ignition.
-
Why would they spend a lot on the induction system unless it was beniificial.
Some of the valves improve high RPM air intake
thats exactly what i thought, but then with more thought i came to the conclusion that the calibra/cav works just fine without the multi ram
"why would they spend a lot on the induction system unless it was beniificial"
i dont know, you tell me?
when tuning for power one normally takes out all restrictions and most even go as far as shaving off fractions of a mm off the throttle plates, and even removing the traction control.
i have read that the multiram is there to help fuel consumption and flatten the torque curve....why is this benificial?
Because they are cheaper cars and it saves money. Omega was top of range and they fitted it out better than the other cars. Also Omega is heavier and needs the boost in torque more
-
Because they are cheaper cars and it saves money. Omega was top of range and they fitted it out better than the other cars. Also Omega is heavier and needs the boost in torque more
.. and the engine's not been shoe-horned in sideways so there is actually room for it under the bonnet. ;)
-
This is my multi ram, nothing was moving with the throttle full open....excuse the sound it my be my phone because the engine does not sound like that
http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/VIDEO0004.mp4
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
Actually I know a Witch in Reading who has a fine pair of protruberances - would you like her address? ::)
-
Leave it alone!
Because it can not be, has not been, and will not be improved upon for this application. Thats why it is the way it is! Gm RnD ain't daft.
Perhaps a better approach would be to say why you think it should be changed. What you want to achieve and why...?
If it's for track work then fine, rip it out, chip it, make it all top end, and ragthe tits off it in every gear. But for road I big lump like the omega needs grunt to get going. Which is what the multi ram system gives you along with top end as well.
Induction tuning isn't a simple thing to get right afaik.
If you want to see what its like without it, disconnect the plug and or vac pipes to it and go for a spin. It's flat as a witches tit.
Actually I know a Witch in Reading who has a fine pair of protruberances - would you like her address? ::)
In witch case, she'll be merely a trainee Witch, so she'll have all her teeth as well. Decisions decisions. ;D
-
This is my multi ram, nothing was moving with the throttle full open....excuse the sound it my be my phone because the engine does not sound like that
http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/VIDEO0004.mp4
Hard to tell if it revved high enough with the noise, but that certainly wasn't moving. Couldn't see the back one, as you videoed the scuttle instead :P
-
This is my multi ram, nothing was moving with the throttle full open....excuse the sound it my be my phone because the engine does not sound like that
http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid283.photobucket.com/albums/kk311/mrcarlxx/VIDEO0004.mp4
Hard to tell if it revved high enough with the noise, but that certainly wasn't moving. Couldn't see the back one, as you videoed the scuttle instead :P
oh bum, i just pointed it in the direction while i was looking at the throttle ;D
do you have to hold it at full revs for a amount of time, before it moves?
i just realised i put this video on the wrong bleeding thread ::)
-
Ok, i guess its time i added my 2 cents...
Here is what ive made up and fitted to my mv6 to remove it.....
(http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz30/omegaMv6_photos/omegaintake.jpg)
And here is the dyno graph it produced....
(http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz30/omegaMv6_photos/omegadyno.jpg)
If anyone has a dyno graph from a standard one for comparsion, that would be great?
-
Only really worth comparing on the same engine TBH
-
Only really worth comparing on the same engine TBH
.. on the same dyno on the same day. ;) There is enough variation between dynos that you can't be sure you've made a gain otherwise.
However, looking at that dyno plot, it clearly doesn't exhibit the almost flat torque curve from 3,000 - 5,000 RPM that the standard engine does. Yes, the "pub figure" at the red line might appear impressive, but the multiram system is there to improve the spread of torque throughout the rev range. ;)
-
It wouldn't really matter if it is from the same engine as long as it was running well during the dino just to get a basic figure of what a typical engine is putting out, or more important, where the torque curve is...as I am guessing even if it was slightly down on hp the torque should still be in the same range.
I can't really see the photos on my phone. Someone tell me what they say please :)
-
Yeah i didnt really mean figures, just ive never seen the torque curve of a stock x30xe, so would be interesting to see roughly what they look like,
Like i said though, this car was built for drifting, so having all the power higher up is far more useful to me, the power delivery has changed ALOT since fitting
-
I just saved the photos and took a look, that is very impressive is that the only mod you have done?
-
I dare'nt mention any other mods, because i seem to be in the wrong for interfering with GM's brilliance :p
-
I dare'nt mention any other mods, because i seem to be in the wrong for interfering with GM's brilliance :p
Haha it is a bit fround up on isn't it, it think the main reason for this is the car tends to attract older people who like to keep things standard.
The fact you have changed a few things does change things for me, because you wouldn't know which mod gave your increase, you could have done one mod that raised your power but the in take could well have brought the power back down
What other things have you done?
-
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/203639-power-resonator-mantzel-did-you-know.html
Have a read through this, they seem to be doin alot more with it in other contries
-
That's because other countries are more curious than us safe brits lol
-
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/203639-power-resonator-mantzel-did-you-know.html
Have a read through this, they seem to be doin alot more with it in other contries
After reading it, they seem to conclude that the stock setup is the best! :y
-
o crap im gonner get grief when i fit air ride and a blower. 8-)
-
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/203639-power-resonator-mantzel-did-you-know.html
Have a read through this, they seem to be doin alot more with it in other contries
LOL it seems that way.
I would rather have the power higher up in the rev range, its nice having the grunt lower down. But that cool if you are driving around town but a little pants when you get on a motorway or any straight long road.
But I think my multi RAM will be staying there as I don't have the money to get something like that fabricated :)
After reading it, they seem to conclude that the stock setup is the best! :y
-
o crap im gonner get grief when i fit air ride and a blower. 8-)
When you do make sure you link me to the thread :)
-
It all depends what you use the car for, if you are the sort of person that buys a 3 litre omega, and then worries about MPG, i guess you would want to keep it standard, if you use it for drifting, you will want it to have quite a steep power and torque curve to make it easier to break traction, so basically all down to personal opinion?
-
It all depends what you use the car for, if you are the sort of person that buys a 3 litre omega, and then worries about MPG, i guess you would want to keep it standard, if you use it for drifting, you will want it to have quite a steep power and torque curve to make it easier to break traction, so basically all down to personal opinion?
The latter is more up my street ):o
-
Forget multi-ram then.. get yourself the diff from a 2.5 v6 auto from after 1998, and then weld it up.... ;)
-
Only really worth comparing on the same engine TBH
.. on the same dyno on the same day. ;) There is enough variation between dynos that you can't be sure you've made a gain otherwise.
However, looking at that dyno plot, it clearly doesn't exhibit the almost flat torque curve from 3,000 - 5,000 RPM that the standard engine does. Yes, the "pub figure" at the red line might appear impressive, but the multiram system is there to improve the spread of torque throughout the rev range. ;)
Is 216hp impressive? GM quote between 209 and 217 (iirc) depending on age (and we know GM tend to underquote), and thats only a peak :-/
-
Is 216hp impressive? GM quote between 209 and 217 (iirc) depending on age (and we know GM tend to underquote), and thats only a peak :-/
No. I was talking in general. ;)
Accuracy of rolling roads being as it is, in general, I'd be surprised if it were that close to the manufacturer's figure even standard.
-
I never said it was impressive, nor did i put the dyno graph up here to try and impress anyone, i simply did it to show the effect it has made on the power/torque curve, in a hope that someone might have the graph from a standard one for a bit of a rough comparison. Im begining to wish i hadnt now though... :-/
-
Although serek was behind me in the queue for the same dyno on the same day, so might be worth seeing what his 3.2 produced
-
I never said it was impressive, nor did i put the dyno graph up here to try and impress anyone, i simply did it to show the effect it has made on the power/torque curve, in a hope that someone might have the graph from a standard one for a bit of a rough comparison. Im begining to wish i hadnt now though... :-/
Sorry, wasn't digging at you, was just trying to understand myself :y
-
Although serek was behind me in the queue for the same dyno on the same day, so might be worth seeing what his 3.2 produced
Now, that would be useful. :y
-
Iirc <my eternal downfall...
Auto's are really difficult to measure, as shown at a rolling road day on here a few years ago. The bhp figures where all down, and the graphs where all over the place.
However, the figures where eventually consistent if locked in 3rd. I can't find the graph from the day in question so it's a bit of a pointless post. But another 3.0 omega there with cone filter and now, (admittedly a good while later )suspected multi ram issue, was down on power to the others.
Sadly you'll have to take my word for all this though :-/
-
To the OP if your tuning the omega remove the duel ram. if keeping standard then leave it in place as it does a good job for the every day driver. the duel ram is there to smooth the torque and aid better fuel economy , if tuning you dont want good fuel economy :-) vauxhall designed the duel ram for the best all round , the best all round is no use to anyone tuning.
ive had my duel ram on and off (replaced with a box like mantzels original) and i preffer the box even more so on the motorway!!
Just unplugging the duel ram or removing vacuums will loose power this is not the way to see what its like removed ;)
Last thing... GM spent loads of time designing everything on the v6 but they had emmision limitations and the every day driver in mind. the egr, heavy flywheel, SAI , restricted exhaust ports/manifolds due to SAI, heated throttle body, duel ram, full exhaust system, and a few other things are due to emmisions and every day drivers , changing/removing/modifing these items make a big difference.
Anyone that says vauxhalls way is best have no idea and are probably balding on the top ;D hence have no interest in playing with vauxhalls perfect v6 engine ;D trust me theres power to be released :y but it can cost!
-
^^^^^ nail on the head springs to mind.... thanks for that! :y
-
To the OP if your tuning the omega remove the duel ram. if keeping standard then leave it in place as it does a good job for the every day driver. the duel ram is there to smooth the torque and aid better fuel economy , if tuning you dont want good fuel economy :-) vauxhall designed the duel ram for the best all round , the best all round is no use to anyone tuning.
ive had my duel ram on and off (replaced with a box like mantzels original) and i preffer the box even more so on the motorway!!
Just unplugging the duel ram or removing vacuums will loose power this is not the way to see what its like removed ;)
Last thing... GM spent loads of time designing everything on the v6 but they had emmision limitations and the every day driver in mind. the egr, heavy flywheel, SAI , restricted exhaust ports/manifolds due to SAI, heated throttle body, duel ram, full exhaust system, and a few other things are due to emmisions and every day drivers , changing/removing/modifing these items make a big difference.
Anyone that says vauxhalls way is best have no idea and are probably balding on the top ;D hence have no interest in playing with vauxhalls perfect v6 engine ;D trust me theres power to be released :y but it can cost!
i must admit i was and still am wondering why they have a water way going through the throttle body, that just seems nuts....cooler air = better surely?
-
To the OP if your tuning the omega remove the duel ram. if keeping standard then leave it in place as it does a good job for the every day driver. the duel ram is there to smooth the torque and aid better fuel economy , if tuning you dont want good fuel economy :-) vauxhall designed the duel ram for the best all round , the best all round is no use to anyone tuning.
ive had my duel ram on and off (replaced with a box like mantzels original) and i preffer the box even more so on the motorway!!
Just unplugging the duel ram or removing vacuums will loose power this is not the way to see what its like removed ;)
Last thing... GM spent loads of time designing everything on the v6 but they had emmision limitations and the every day driver in mind. the egr, heavy flywheel, SAI , restricted exhaust ports/manifolds due to SAI, heated throttle body, duel ram, full exhaust system, and a few other things are due to emmisions and every day drivers , changing/removing/modifing these items make a big difference.
Anyone that says vauxhalls way is best have no idea and are probably balding on the top ;D hence have no interest in playing with vauxhalls perfect v6 engine ;D trust me theres power to be released :y but it can cost!
i must admit i was and still am wondering why they have a water way going through the throttle body, that just seems nuts....cooler air = better surely?
Not on a cold morning, or generally in cold weather. Ever heard of carb icing on Kawaski's? No? Well, ram air is a kwaka speciality. Great in summer. But winter creeps in. Those long cool evenings turn into freezing cold evenings when you add in wind chill in an inlet tract at ton plus :-X at 3 or 4 degrees c air temp. It gets below zero and you have ice. On carbs thats fatal. The bike stalls or at best runs like a bag of shite.
Now I know these are fuel injected obviously. But we need just enough heat to keep things working without ice buggering things up. Hence your heated throttle bodies.
Car makers ain't daft ( although we all make mistakes ) they do this stuff at great expense for a damn good reason. It's ALWAYS worth baring that in mind. ALWAYS. ;)
-
To the OP if your tuning the omega remove the duel ram. if keeping standard then leave it in place as it does a good job for the every day driver. the duel ram is there to smooth the torque and aid better fuel economy , if tuning you dont want good fuel economy :-) vauxhall designed the duel ram for the best all round , the best all round is no use to anyone tuning.
ive had my duel ram on and off (replaced with a box like mantzels original) and i preffer the box even more so on the motorway!!
Just unplugging the duel ram or removing vacuums will loose power this is not the way to see what its like removed ;)
Last thing... GM spent loads of time designing everything on the v6 but they had emmision limitations and the every day driver in mind. the egr, heavy flywheel, SAI , restricted exhaust ports/manifolds due to SAI, heated throttle body, duel ram, full exhaust system, and a few other things are due to emmisions and every day drivers , changing/removing/modifing these items make a big difference.
Anyone that says vauxhalls way is best have no idea and are probably balding on the top ;D hence have no interest in playing with vauxhalls perfect v6 engine ;D trust me theres power to be released :y but it can cost!
I mostly agree, but my understanding is that with the fully working multiram produces approx the same peak power as with it removed, its just it improved low rev torque as well.
The biggest problem, is people believe that if the likes of Courtney Sport say something is an improvement, be it cone filters, FPRs etc, it must be. Sadly, there seems to be a lack of specialist Vauxhall tuning companies that do understand basic concepts.
-
Chris, your right about bike throttle bodys, but on the v6 in the uk the heated throttle body is a waste of time, the throttle body gets warm on its own without the coolant running through it. i remember the days of carb icing though :) but alots changed since :y
Theboy, the multi ram is a good bit of kit, but once you start tuning its a real hold back the problem i find with the multi ram is it makes it feel like the cars quick to the average person. completely different but its almost like a lightened flywheel fit one and it feels like you have gained 20bhp when you havnt gained anything!.
i agree with vauxhall tuning companys... waste of time! i laugh when i read stuff on some of these companys sites.
I think everyone is different on this forum and owns their omega for a different reason its just a case of what your happy with. :)
-
Merely an example. But you see the point? Obviously the omega is not just a uk model. They would have to include it in the original design.
-
Chris, your right about bike throttle bodys, but on the v6 in the uk the heated throttle body is a waste of time, the throttle body gets warm on its own without the coolant running through it. i remember the days of carb icing though :) but alots changed since :y
Theboy, the multi ram is a good bit of kit, but once you start tuning its a real hold back the problem i find with the multi ram is it makes it feel like the cars quick to the average person. completely different but its almost like a lightened flywheel fit one and it feels like you have gained 20bhp when you havnt gained anything!.
i agree with vauxhall tuning companys... waste of time! i laugh when i read stuff on some of these companys sites.
I think everyone is different on this forum and owns their omega for a different reason its just a case of what your happy with. :)
Yeah, they make the same basic engine for the global market (with additional additions/deletions for emissions purposes).
Although we've had some -25C winters recently, and air intake will reduce 1C for every 10mph. I guess that is cold enough for the throttles to start to stick if the engine hasn't warmed up?
Once you overcome other restrictions - the intake is not the first place to start on this engine - then there is scope for changing the multiram system possibly. Although my understanding is its tuning the inlet length for a specific RPM for that capacity engine, so not sure how much you could improve. I guess everything is refinable, but with deminishing returns.
The GM V6 in other cars is more compromised, due to space, so more scope to see improvements on Vectras, Chavaliers and Calibras.
-
I should add, if there was a decent solution, I'd do it to mine. You can never have enough power [smiley=evil.gif]
-
Merely an example. But you see the point? Obviously the omega is not just a uk model. They would have to include it in the original design.
Yeah see your point :y yep it was a worldwide model im sure in freezing cold countrys it is needed. but even in the freezing cold last 2 winters we have had mines been perfect even on the motorway. to be honest removing it hasnt done much, after about 10 mins the throttle body is hot already! these engine do run hot :(
-
Merely an example. But you see the point? Obviously the omega is not just a uk model. They would have to include it in the original design.
Yeah see your point :y yep it was a worldwide model im sure in freezing cold countrys it is needed. but even in the freezing cold last 2 winters we have had mines been perfect even on the motorway. to be honest removing it hasnt done much, after about 10 mins the throttle body is hot already! these engine do run hot :(
Certainly makes removing the plenum easier, those clips are a pita to get to, ESP on the long plenum.
-
Merely an example. But you see the point? Obviously the omega is not just a uk model. They would have to include it in the original design.
Yeah see your point :y yep it was a worldwide model im sure in freezing cold countrys it is needed. but even in the freezing cold last 2 winters we have had mines been perfect even on the motorway. to be honest removing it hasnt done much, after about 10 mins the throttle body is hot already! these engine do run hot :(
Certainly makes removing the plenum easier, those clips are a pita to get to, ESP on the long plenum.
Particularly idiotish design on the DBW. Non DBW isn't too much of a problem.
-
Merely an example. But you see the point? Obviously the omega is not just a uk model. They would have to include it in the original design.
Yeah see your point :y yep it was a worldwide model im sure in freezing cold countrys it is needed. but even in the freezing cold last 2 winters we have had mines been perfect even on the motorway. to be honest removing it hasnt done much, after about 10 mins the throttle body is hot already! these engine do run hot :(
Certainly makes removing the plenum easier, those clips are a pita to get to, ESP on the long plenum.
Particularly idiotish design on the DBW. Non DBW isn't too much of a problem.
Yeah but your incredibly biased. ;D
-
Remember that the intake air undergoes adiabatic cooling as the pressure drops at the throttle on part throttle. This could cause icing of the throttle if the incoming air is humid. Temperature drops here can be as much as 20 degrees c so freezing air is not a requirement for icing, just humidity, as any pilot will testify.
What effect does the dribble of coolant that flows through the heated throttle body have on the temperature of the huge amount of air passing through it at full power, though? The square root of eff all is my guess, but anyone contemplating serious tuning would know. They'd have measured it and worked out if it's worthwhile. ;)
Ditto the multirams. Those drain pipes have a huge diameter compared to the throttle bodies that follow them. I'm not saying that they aren't at all restrictive, but if they are, it'll only be right at the top end of the power curve, and not worth enough power to forego the considerable increase in torque they provide at low revs. IMHO. (it's the area under the curve that matters) Again, measure it (e.g. before and after on a dyno) and decide if "ripping it out" is a compromise worth making.
IMHO, as soon as you've made a modification, especially one as noticeable as a Mantzel box, you're into "modified" car insurance premiums and potentially finding out to your cost why the manufacturer spent a considerable amount of money doing what they did as standard. If it's not going to make a significant difference my car is staying standard, thanks. If it did, we'd all do it. ;)
If I were interested in tuning the V6 (and I'm not, mine is a commuting car primarily, and has enough power) I would start with the abysmal exhaust manifolds. It's a shame there's no off-the-shelf solution to that, but the tuning companies aren't interested in developing anything that takes more than 10 minutes for the average chav to bolt on. ;)
I don't think much on the intake side is worth messing about with until you go to individual throttle bodies.
-
I don't think much on the intake side is worth messing about with until you go to individual throttle bodies.
Now you're talking.. that'd sound lovely ;) (I have my eye on a set for the V8)
Incidentally on the manifold removal - the Omega is by far the easiest intake manifold I've ever had to remove (on the DBW)! The MR2 is impossible without dropping the engine off it's mountings and rotating it (or just plain removing the engine) and the 300ZX required the removal of four tiny coolant hoses buried right under the manifold, two EGR pipes bolted to the underside of the manifold, 6 coilpacks, the injector wiring and all of the IACV pipework - it took me two days the first time! ;D
Anyway.. back to mantzel resonators and so on..
-
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/standard-kits/jenvey-dynamics/opel-vx-v6-sfs45-kit-ckvx06
:-* <Rattles piggy bank>
:'(
-
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/standard-kits/jenvey-dynamics/opel-vx-v6-sfs45-kit-ckvx06
:-* <Rattles piggy bank>
:'(
Is that all? ;D The complete setup for the V8 is about £3500 ex. VAT for the ITBs.. :o
-
Although serek was behind me in the queue for the same dyno on the same day, so might be worth seeing what his 3.2 produced
Now, that would be useful. :y
here my car on RR
standard 3.2 maual :)
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5308/p4100182.jpg)[/URL]
-
Although serek was behind me in the queue for the same dyno on the same day, so might be worth seeing what his 3.2 produced
Now, that would be useful. :y
here my car on RR
standard 3.2 maual :)
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5308/p4100182.jpg)[/URL]
Hmm. Look at the shape of the torque curve. :y
-
..... and the valve opens at 4100 rpm - see
-
..... and the valve opens at 4100 rpm - see
Yep, clearly something going on there, and the first stage at 3400 is there too, although not as pronounced.
But.. 200 ft.lb available from about 2250 to 5750 RPM with no signs of any flat spots. Compare with the "modified" curve posted earlier (which unfortunately doesn't include the scale) and you can see what the multiram system is doing.
-
There is not a lot in it, if anything I would say the on the previous the torque curve is steeper
-
There is not a lot in it, if anything I would say the on the previous the torque curve is steeper
So less torque low down the rev range ;) ;)
At the end of the day, each to their own. The standard setup is not that restrictive and gives a car that is more driveable in the low RPM range instead of one where all the go is there when revving the nuts off it ;)
I'm happier with the nice, wide torque availability :y
You might be happier if you have to rev the nuts off it all the time :y
Each to their own, as I said ;)
-
Im getting a headache page flipping - both together...
weasals
(http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz30/omegaMv6_photos/omegadyno.jpg)
standard 3.2 maual :)
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5308/p4100182.jpg)
-
There is not a lot in it, if anything I would say the on the previous the torque curve is steeper
Exactly.. Just what you don't want.
Same power output (within accuracy you can expect from 2 different dynos), so the torque at maximum power RPM must be the same (since power = torque x RPM / 5252), yet the curve is steeper meaning the modification has lost torque at low RPM - exactly what the multiram is there to maintain.
Kevin
-
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/standard-kits/jenvey-dynamics/opel-vx-v6-sfs45-kit-ckvx06
:-* <Rattles piggy bank>
:'(
Cough written off motorbike throttles cough
-
As for the graph and if you look at bhp (which seems to be what the op is looking at) you get
| RPM | Modified | Standard |
| 2000 | 68 | 72 |
| 3000 | 108 | 117 |
| 4000 | 154 | 164 |
| 5000 | 197 | 208 |
| 6000 | 215 | 218 |
So less bhp across the rev range due to the compromised torque curve. ;D ;D ;D
Nice, better go buy yourself a nice cone filter to :y
-
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/standard-kits/jenvey-dynamics/opel-vx-v6-sfs45-kit-ckvx06
:-* <Rattles piggy bank>
:'(
Cough written off motorbike throttles cough
Yep - a couple of hundred quid should do it.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-HAYABUSA-GSX1300R-THROTTLE-BODIES-INJECTORS-/250839284028?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3a672fb93c
-
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/standard-kits/jenvey-dynamics/opel-vx-v6-sfs45-kit-ckvx06
:-* <Rattles piggy bank>
:'(
Cough written off motorbike throttles cough
Indeed. :y Could probably graft a set of them them onto the bottom half of a V6 manifold reasonably easily.
-
Or 2 sets from a couple of Triumph triples ? :-/
-
Or 2 sets from a couple of Triumph triples ? :-/
Some of the bike setups are single bodies bolted together IIRC. Ideal for this sort of thing. GSX-R 750 is a good donor, as I recall.
Getting cool air to them could be a challenge, I suppose. Bulge in the bonnet, anyone? ;D
-
Just extend the ram air pipes already attached to them. Flexi hoses running out to the front to catch plenty of cold air. ;)
Would imagine a set of gixer750 bodies might be a bit small for a 3.2 v6 ? :-/
Perhaps a set from a Triumph rocket 3 - a 2300 triple. :D
-
A pair of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/throttle-bodies-triumph-t595-daytona-1998-3397-/260752684176?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3cb6123490
-
Or 2 sets from a couple of Triumph triples ? :-/
Is there an echo in here ? ::) :D ;D
-
J
Would imagine a set of gixer750 bodies might be a bit small for a 3.2 v6 ? :-/
IIRC they're about 42mm so probably about right.
-
A pair of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/throttle-bodies-triumph-t595-daytona-1998-3397-/260752684176?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3cb6123490
wonder how they will work on DBW cars ::)
-
I knoow they're a bit bigger but how about K-series Rover throttle bodies? They're 42mm if I remember right, and you can't give them away.
I made some adapters and a throttle linkage to convert a mate's Dolomite Sprint to EFI using the original manifold and a pair of these. He sold the car before I finished the job, but next step was to turn some injector bosses and weld them in, plus fabricate a fuel rail, using Carlton injectors and regulator(chosen because they were in the potentially useful bits box). We were expecting there to be about £25 in materials in the entire job.
Not sure I'd like to make a linkage for six individual bodies though!
-
Just to let you know the 'modified' dyno graph is the 3.0 and the 'standard' is from a 3.2........
-
Just to let you know the 'modified' dyno graph is the 3.0 and the 'standard' is from a 3.2........
Which there's actually pretty much nothing between... Certainly on the road ;) ;)
-
Just extend the ram air pipes already attached to them. Flexi hoses running out to the front to catch plenty of cold air. ;)
Would imagine a set of gixer750 bodies might be a bit small for a 3.2 v6 ?
Also, not sure about the newer models but the earlier ones had a dual butterfly setup per pot. Throttle, then under that a second to try and smooth the incredibly snatchy pick up from zero throttle. Which on a bike, cranked over, ESP in the wet, is NOT what you want. It was still impossible to feed the power in smoothly, and Suzuki sold their admission that they couldnt tune it out as a revelation. >:(
Anyway, I doubt the complication of a second butterfly would be helpful. As it's not an issue on a car with a better map anyway (it couldn't be any worse than suzukis) >:( I'd choose another set from a maker that knows what they're doing. Unless the newer ones where sorted...?
-
Just to let you know the 'modified' dyno graph is the 3.0 and the 'standard' is from a 3.2........
In standard form, there is little between the 3.0 and 3.2
-
Anyway, I doubt the complication of a second butterfly would be helpful. As it's not an issue on a car with a better map anyway (it couldn't be any worse than suzukis) >:( I'd choose another set from a maker that knows what they're doing. Unless the newer ones where sorted...?
You can just ditch the second butterfly and seal the holes where the shaft was.
Perhaps this is the reason they are so readily available? Lots of bikers ditching them and fitting carbs?
Another problem is the take-off for the MAP sensor is far too close to the throttles, IIRC, and gives a very poor "all or nothing" signal so that may have been part of the problem with the original application?
Sample the MAP from further into the intake and they work nicely, by all accounts.
-
Anyway, I doubt the complication of a second butterfly would be helpful. As it's not an issue on a car with a better map anyway (it couldn't be any worse than suzukis) >:( I'd choose another set from a maker that knows what they're doing. Unless the newer ones where sorted...?
You can just ditch the second butterfly and seal the holes where the shaft was.
Perhaps this is the reason they are so readily available? Lots of bikers ditching them and fitting carbs?
Another problem is the take-off for the MAP sensor is far too close to the throttles, IIRC, and gives a very poor "all or nothing" signal so that may have been part of the problem with the original application?
Sample the MAP from further into the intake and they work nicely, by all accounts.
May well be. There wasn't a solution available at the time and the bike is long gone now thank god. As I recall it was an inherent problem in early days of fuel injection on bikes. But Suzuki suffered especially badly.
Just couldn't feed the power in smoothly. Being sooo careful with opening the throttle, everyone else had buggered off and the apex was long gone by the time it was on the power safely. Some just went "bang" and wacked the throttle open regardless. I rode other gsxr 1000's which all felt the same to me around that year 00/01... and later 02/03 models.
Current 04 fireblade has no such issue btw. :y
I'd be interested to see how this lot would fit in the v though?
-
Hmmm, that's a shame. Was hoping these would work but they appear to be cast in pairs. http://www.roadracingworld.com/enlarge/?section=news&image=709
Although not sure if variable inlet length is so important on a low revving engine anyway?
-
Hmmm, that's a shame. Was hoping these would work but they appear to be cast in pairs. http://www.roadracingworld.com/enlarge/?section=news&image=709
Although not sure if variable inlet length is so important on a low revving engine anyway?
Sweet but with 6 pots wouldn't it be easier to buy single throttle bodies?
-
Although not sure if variable inlet length is so important on a low revving engine anyway?
It is, but they're probably about a foot too short, as a result of the reduced RPM. Nice, though. :-*