Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: feeutfo on 24 July 2011, 23:16:29
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So, guess a few will have seen Top Gear and the piece on Big knob head in the Cosworth F1 car. Bless him. ;D
Specifically, the bit about braking, appreciating it and understanding the performance envelope involved. Difficult, as non of us have over .5 of a million to physically try it. I'll never get close to that sort of performance certainly. Too old a fat now never mind the money.
However track experience is.... "Enlightening" I suppose you could say, and that works both ways.
e.g. Kevin Schwantz ex 500GP world champion once said about braking markers that he doesn't use them, preferring the "see God and then brake" approach. But what happens when you push past that point...? If you have it right, you run on.
But if your god gauge is a bit out, as it will be unless your winning trophies, you find you still had some way to go before the brakes where truely needed. So you push past seeing God... Then your in real trouble as your now lost. Re calibrating your God gauge as the circuit approaches and each corner now has a different depth. Your God gauge is still telling you to brake... Brake....BRAAAAKE. But you now know that's still too early for the machine your on, or in. Brain says wait, keep the throttle pinned, fear and fight of flight instinct says save your life and brake now. Your head even moves back in preparation for counteracting the impending full stop, but no, that's still too early. It's like your brain is stretching, stop, pin it, brake, no wait... Bit more, NOW BRAAAAAKEING. 'dangle berries', still to early. Next lap try again.... And so and so on until you calibrate and get God dialed in, so to speak.
.... that's about as far as i got with track work and braking. Frankly funds age and fitness couldn't cut it, and working with the God gauge started to cause Nausea between long breaks between track days due to cash flow, and a bit of club racing on bikes, long break another track day etc means you have to re calibrate again as it's been forgotten. Brands is a nightmare as it undulates alot, blind corners and hidden turn in points etc. Nausea again, so much more going on than braking on a flatter circuit.
So that's road racing on bikes(for me). Road bikes! Quick but not as quick as F1 obviously, not even close.
Amplify that by what? about 70% ? As Clarkson demonstrated, that's a hell of a lot of turmoil in the brain dealing with the god gauge... Christ all mighty. How do they do it...?
Dont ever tell me F1 is boring. Ever! >:(
I just spent a good portion of the German Gp shouting at the TV as usual. Zoom out! Pan back, where's the impression of speed? And as for that long head on shot down the straight purely because there's a bit of heat haze to look through. BOG OFF >:( is that all the producer can do to present the pinnacle of motor sport...? An obstructed view of an F1 car getting gradually bigger in size. What utter utter 'dangle berries'! >:(
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I enjoyed both F1 and top gear today,thought they were both very good. :y
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Gilles Villenueve used to do the "god gauge" thing in reverse. He would leave the braking waaay too late, spin,and then work back in incrememnets from there.He said there wasnt enough time to do it the other way round, it took too long.
He also based overtaking on his "gap theory"- once youve started the overtake, you will somehow find a gap.He also knew that one day he wouldnt find a gap, and sadly he was right.But the alternative was to be "one of those other boring tossers" who thought about it and then bottled it because it was too late. ;)
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Difficult, as non of us have over .5 of a million to physically try it. I'll never get close to that sort of performance certainly. Too old a fat now never mind the money.
My bro, the lucky little bugger, got an all expenses paid trip to Spain to drive an F1 car, from one of his suppliers.
They put him in a single seater initially to get him used to the format, teaching him what to do when/where/how, then plonked him in the back seat of the 2 seater F1 to scare him wittless, before plonking him in a McLaren F1 (as in FIA, not the F1 sports car) to do some laps.
Lucky little tinker >:(
And gayboy, he is of a similar build to me, so I'm sure you could be shoehorned in ;)
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Actually, I think they put him in several single seaters with better and better performance... ...I'll have to check with him
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Actually, I think they put him in several single seaters with better and better performance... ...I'll have to check with him
I drove a formula Ford single seater at one of these red letter day things. It was set up not to kill anyone, foremost, with a 4k RPM rev limit IIRC. ;D
When they realised I was getting bored bouncing off the rev limiter they gave me a formula Renault which was a little less restricted, had sticky rubber and aerodynamics.
Well I did half a dozen laps building my speed up and then started getting cocky on the last couple of laps (as you do).
Went into a right-left-right complex a little quick and ended up on completely the wrong line for the middle bend. Went to tighten the line just a tad and the next thing I knew I was going backwards through kitty litter. :o
It felt to me that there was absolutely no warning whatsoever. However, on speaking to the instructor afterwards, he said they struggle to get the cars tuned to be docile enough for the unwashed to come and drive them, and reminded me that that car set up for race use would be at the bottom of the ladder that leads, eventually, to F1.
I guess that's why the only way in is to be racing karts from the age of about 12. ::)
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I enjoyed both F1 and top gear today,thought they were both very good. :y
Indeed. It's the coverage that's frustrating. Love the few onboard shots.
Motogp on board cameras, ESP at Sachsenring , are awesome. gyro cams. Seems a simple thing as a viewer to allow for a horizontal horizon on a conventional camera, but when level somehow it's one less thing to sus out when looking riders eye at the oncoming track. How much power is being layer down at such an acute lean angle, and when the rider in view slides or goes for an overtake it's spell bounding on occasion. But even they don't show anywhere near enough onboard. In fact the commentators often instantly shut up so as not to talk over the engine note. The juggling of physics becomes more apparent.
Cars don't need a gyro cam obviously, bikes have that extra dimension. A bit more knife edge, and a finer tuned "God gauge" as they physically can't stop as quick as a car, and God is more likely to appear if the rider cocks it up.
Commitment in MotoGp is awesome. But so rarely comes across on TV. although to be fair, the slightest twitch in wheel alignment/grip level feels like death is moments away, but is rarely as dramatic to a TV audience. :(
Motor sport on tv is a highly frustrating experience IMO.
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So how do you judge when to brake?
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So how do you judge when to brake?
... And conversely, when to finish braking...?
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
;D Depth perception....? ;D
Some choose a marker and creep it further up towards the corner. Doesn't help with looking round the corner IMO.
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
;D Depth perception....? ;D
Some choose a marker and creep it further up towards the corner. Doesn't help with looking round the corner IMO.
Markers are only useful on a track if you follow the same perfect lines every single lap, and screw you over if offline due to overtake etc, before you even consider differing conditions. Obviously can't use markers on roads, as you don't do any corner often enough :-/
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
;D Depth perception....? ;D
Some choose a marker and creep it further up towards the corner. Doesn't help with looking round the corner IMO.
Markers are only useful on a track if you follow the same perfect lines every single lap, and screw you over if offline due to overtake etc, before you even consider differing conditions. Obviously can't use markers on roads, as you don't do any corner often enough :-/
Was thinking track work. Pros promote markers. Clearly useless on the road, and is a good reason not to ride or drive on the road at all to start with. Bad habits etc. Hence carting entry level is a good idea as Kev mentioned.
But even so, I doubt I'd get on with markers.
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
;D Depth perception....? ;D
Some choose a marker and creep it further up towards the corner. Doesn't help with looking round the corner IMO.
Markers are only useful on a track if you follow the same perfect lines every single lap, and screw you over if offline due to overtake etc, before you even consider differing conditions. Obviously can't use markers on roads, as you don't do any corner often enough :-/
Was thinking track work. Pros promote markers. Clearly useless on the road, and is a good reason not to ride or drive on the road at all to start with. Bad habits etc. Hence carting entry level is a good idea as Kev mentioned.
But even so, I doubt I'd get on with markers.
I suspect a pro doesn't look for the markers, just simple 'knows' where they are in relation to them. Also, at 170mph, how useful is a 300/200 marker, it will just fly past ;D
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So how do you judge when to brake?
As you say, based on how much turtle touches cloth. The point of contact is time to brake. Hard. Very, very hard ;D
For mere mortals like us, we lack the ability to perfectly judge it. Sometimes we are too cautious, sometimes we overcook it (sorry joshwyatt, your tank was heavier than it felt ::)).
Braking is probably my strong point, be it in cars, karts and 'Event' days. Probably my weakest area is judging weight (re)distribution, and using that to my advantage to get it round corners as quick as possible.
;D Depth perception....? ;D
Some choose a marker and creep it further up towards the corner. Doesn't help with looking round the corner IMO.
Markers are only useful on a track if you follow the same perfect lines every single lap, and screw you over if offline due to overtake etc, before you even consider differing conditions. Obviously can't use markers on roads, as you don't do any corner often enough :-/
Was thinking track work. Pros promote markers. Clearly useless on the road, and is a good reason not to ride or drive on the road at all to start with. Bad habits etc. Hence carting entry level is a good idea as Kev mentioned.
But even so, I doubt I'd get on with markers.
I suspect a pro doesn't look for the markers, just simple 'knows' where they are in relation to them. Also, at 170mph, how useful is a 300/200 marker, it will just fly past ;D
And when to stop braking...?
Specifically, choose you corner speed while braking, when reached fling the brake off, turn in, apply power
Or, brake later then trail brake and turn, gradually releasing brake pressure to match grip level as your desired corner speed as reached. There by matching maximum grip level up to the apex, and allowing later braking, but buggering tyres quicker....?
You, I know are the first one. Point and squirt merchant. (snigger) ;)
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..must admit quite a nice platter of 'motor' coverage on TV this weekend.
The GP - great to see some wheel to wheel action for a change for most of the race. Refreshing to see Vetell having timeout for one race at least - do you think it was team orders ::) ::). Did anyone else notice Webber's baseball cap during the Jake Humphries interview - it had a '2' on the peak ....subtle as a brick :P.
TG - although entertaining - some of the staged features get a bit predictable but I suppose they come under the banner 'I wonder what would happen if :question".. The Jensen Interceptor..I love that car - although nothing like the E-type originally - but exactly like the E-type today it just demands to be brought up to date and re built with new technology.
I've been on a few track days too - and agree entirely the points at which your head says 'this ain't natural' and the cars say 'you want me to do what :o' - are miles apart. I've never even been close - a hot lap as a passenger has had me way past my 'god luck' point but still well within the limits of the car. A game of cat and mouse around Donnington as a passenger a few years ago 1st in a VXR Corsa chasing the Vectra - and then the VXR Vectra chasing the Corsa...taught me my brain would probably never let me get close -mental. I had a go in the VXR8 and was terrified I was going to put it in the cat litter. Jason Plato makes it look so natural :-/ :-/
Hey ho - I then watched the Californian Moto GP last night - although it too got a bit boring - I know what you mean Chris about the camera angles. Unless your up close and personal or have a decent reference point it really doesn't do it justice - but breathtaking nonetheless. The corkscrew bend on that circuit must be akin to downhill skiing ... if you think about it for a nano second - your toast.. :o awesome (watching it on the TV at Silverstone a few weeks back in the rain takes the term nerves of steel to a different planet - in fact I think they must have any nerves removed as it's beyond even downhill skiing if you ask me)
One final thought about knowing when to brake or trying your chance at making up those vital seconds that will one day come in really handy by leaving it a tad late to slow down from a ridiculous speed: You might have the grip, you might have the line just right - but if you toast the brakes - you ain't stoppin' :o :o. Only happened once to me coming of a motorway slip road.....so so so luckily the road was clear ahead and the lights changed to green just as I ran out of stopping distance for the lights.... I have now moved my reference point back a few hundred meters just to be on the safe side.. ;) - it was a serious underwear changing experience :-X
Cheers
Ian.
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It is all in the head. Some just don't care if it all goes wrong. Freeing the mind somewhat.
Some techniques help. Looking at the right section of track made a big difference for me at Silverstone. Maggots beckets chapel, kept braking for the first left kink into maggots. It's not a corner ya idiot, I eventually said to myself. Look beyond that to the next right, which is a corner, and all was well. First visit and learning. Now they've bloody changed part of it it. >:( ;D