Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Andy B on 19 September 2011, 00:36:34
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what do the different numbers mean, specifically 229.51? (it's fully skimmed 5W-30)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F2137.jpg)
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Not sure that specific number but merely differant manufacturers designations for the same product.
BMW long life for instance is almost 4 times as much as Gm's equivalent. ;D
But I suspect you knew that much...? :-/
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Should add it's a very good oil I believe.
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Should add it's a very good oil I believe.
Rather than have my collar felt for £50 a gallon for the Holy Grail of Mobil 1 that they deem is the only oil I should use in her Smart Roadster I've used Vx fully skimmed in it. However after a good work out on fast A & B roads it now has the problem of the oil pressure light flickering on tick over. I've had it before, new oil & an oil filter seemed to sort it .......... She only drives 1.5 miles each way to work so never really stresses her car - unlike when I use it ::). before I reduce the engine to card board level I'm trying to decide of GM fully synthetic is too 'thin' for it :-/ :-/ :-/
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Should add it's a very good oil I believe.
Rather than have my collar felt for £50 a gallon for the Holy Grail of Mobil 1 that they deem is the only oil I should use in her Smart Roadster I've used Vx fully skimmed in it. However after a good work out on fast A & B roads it now has the problem of the oil pressure light flickering on tick over. I've had it before, new oil & an oil filter seemed to sort it .......... She only drives 1.5 miles each way to work so never really stresses her car - unlike when I use it ::). before I reduce the engine to card board level I'm trying to decide of GM fully synthetic is too 'thin' for it :-/ :-/ :-/
Ah, is this a "no sump" engine?
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When i worked at the vauxhall stealers in stockport vauxhall oil is or was moble 1 oil mate just in a different tub. :y
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When i worked at the vauxhall stealers in stockport vauxhall oil is or was moble 1 oil mate just in a different tub. :y
Its been Fuchs for about the last 6 years :y
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The general opinion of the Roadster forum is that the GM fully synthetic is too 'thin' ie 0w40 5w40 10w40 10w50 or 10w60 would be better than 5w30
A change of grade would be a lot easier than an engine strip down to get rid of the low oil pressure light at tick over with a HOT engine.
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MB 229.51 will be a manufacturer specification that the oil meets (guessing MB is Mercedes). It's just a reference to a document somewhere so bears no relevance to the oil specification IMHO. Unless that same spec. is quoted by Smart?
"Standard" Mobil 1 is a 0w40 oil IIRC. This one is a 5w30, so, at operating temperature, it is slightly thinner. Once it's got good and hot it will give you slightly lower oil pressure as a result but I'm surprised it puts the light on, TBH. What grades of oil are listed in the owner's manual? Does it say a 30 weight oil is acceptable?
You might want to connect up an oil pressure gauge to the engine and make sure the oil pressure is within spec. just for peace of mind.
I wonder if that engine works its' oil particularly hard (how much oil does it take?) or whether Mobil 1 was just specified to provide a long service interval. Thinking the GM 10w40 might be OK if you change it regularly?
Kevin
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Ah, is this a "no sump" engine?
It has a sump, just no sump drain plug. ;)
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MB 229.51 will be a manufacturer specification that the oil meets (guessing MB is Mercedes). It's just a reference to a document somewhere so bears no relevance to the oil specification IMHO. Unless that same spec. is quoted by Smart?
"Standard" Mobil 1 is a 0w40 oil IIRC. This one is a 5w30, so, at operating temperature, it is slightly thinner. Once it's got good and hot it will give you slightly lower oil pressure as a result but I'm surprised it puts the light on, TBH. What grades of oil are listed in the owner's manual? Does it say a 30 weight oil is acceptable?
You might want to connect up an oil pressure gauge to the engine and make sure the oil pressure is within spec. just for peace of mind.
I wonder if that engine works its' oil particularly hard (how much oil does it take?) or whether Mobil 1 was just specified to provide a long service interval. Thinking the GM 10w40 might be OK if you change it regularly?
Kevin
The handbook recomended oil is 'smartcare engine oil SAE 10W-40, Mobil 1'
It only hold 3.5 litres but the service interval is only around 7000 miles/12 months anyway so hardly an extended interval.
The light isn't on permanently at tick over but flickers, going out completely at anything slightly above.
I'll whip the oil filter out & have a gander at it, it was horrible & collapsed the last few times I've changed it.
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3.5 litres is a reasonable capacity for an engine of that size, IMHO. Just wondered if it had a stupidly small sump or something. In that case maybe GM 10w40 is worth a try with the interval knocked down to 3.5k or something? Maybe 5w30 is too thin?
Worth checking the filter. Could be that the lack of a sump plug means the clean oil with fresh detergent additives has taken up a load of crud from the bottom of the sump, and clogged it, I suppose?
Other possibility is that the oil pressure relief valve is sticking?
If it's only flickering at idle it's probably not going to do any harm. I'd still be tempted to plumb a cheap pressure gauge into it for a while to see exactly what's going on. You never know at what pressure the light comes on. :-/
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Sounds like it may need shorter change intervals.
I guess also that its an oil suck setup which tend to resul in sludge in the sump more (sadly).
I dont like the sound of the flickering lamp, they normaly come on at the 12-15psi mark where as the oil pressure even when hot should be 30+.
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It could just be the oil pressure switch being faulty so Kevin's suggestion of plumbing in a gauge seems a good one :y
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3.5 litres is a reasonable capacity for an engine of that size, IMHO. Just wondered if it had a stupidly small sump or something. In that case maybe GM 10w40 is worth a try with the interval knocked down to 3.5k or something? Maybe 5w30 is too thin?
Worth checking the filter. Could be that the lack of a sump plug means the clean oil with fresh detergent additives has taken up a load of crud from the bottom of the sump, and clogged it, I suppose?
Other possibility is that the oil pressure relief valve is sticking?
If it's only flickering at idle it's probably not going to do any harm. I'd still be tempted to plumb a cheap pressure gauge into it for a while to see exactly what's going on. You never know at what pressure the light comes on. :-/
Do to the light flickering last year, clearing the pump suction of the excess instant gasket a previous owner/garage had used when glueing the sump bcak on, it's had about 4 changes in the last 2 years/8k miles.
I think might have a point re using Vx's semi synthetic rather than fully synthetic, it's not going to do any harm - is it?
I replaced the pressure switch toolast year, I'm sure I've still got the old one, so that should make it easier to find thread sizes etc for a 'proper' gauge. :y
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It could just be the oil pressure switch being faulty so Kevin's suggestion of plumbing in a gauge seems a good one :y
Low probability but, hope springs eternal!
But yes, a gauge would be a wide move
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Ah, is this a "no sump" engine?
It has a sump, just no sump drain plug. ;)
You turn the car upside down to drain the oil out
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Sounds like it may need shorter change intervals.
I guess also that its an oil suck setup which tend to resul in sludge in the sump more (sadly).
I dont like the sound of the flickering lamp, they normaly come on at the 12-15psi mark where as the oil pressure even when hot should be 30+.
Removal of the sump was one of the first things done when the light started flickering, and the sump itself was clear of all sludge.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F1902.jpg) (just loads of condensation/mayo on the walls)
Only problem was something like Hermatite blue had been put on with a shovel and the excess inside the sump had fallen down & been picked up by the pump.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F1905.jpg)
Removing this lot made a huge difference - the cam chain has a hydraulic tensioner so even though it's still a bit noisy - it's loads better that it was.
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It could just be the oil pressure switch being faulty ....
New switch fitted ....... which COULD still be faulty :-/
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Ah, is this a "no sump" engine?
It has a sump, just no sump drain plug. ;)
You turn the car upside down to drain the oil out
Tried that, but lost the washer water too! ;D ;D ;D
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If this has happened before then clearly the oil pressure is marginal. If the switch has been changed it's unlikely to be that. :-/
I think I'd be looking to check the pressure relief valve next. If it's had all that sealant in the pickup it's not unlikely that some has ended up jammed in the relief valve.
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If this has happened before then clearly the oil pressure is marginal. If the switch has been changed it's unlikely to be that. :-/
I think I'd be looking to check the pressure relief valve next. If it's had all that sealant in the pickup it's not unlikely that some has ended up jammed in the relief valve.
Good idea. :y
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It could just be the oil pressure switch being faulty ....
New switch fitted ....... which COULD still be faulty :-/
Do you know what pressure the switch activates at? On the MR2 it comes on at 3.8psi, which is frighteningly low (as many people say on that forum, it's really not an oil pressure warning lamp, it's a "Please visit the dealer for a new engine" lamp!) - I'd be worried if it was flickering and that's it's activation point.. if it were higher (say, 10psi or so) I might not worry so much.
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Sounds like you have a few thinsg to check then Andy.
Given the pics you posted, I would not be overly surprised if some bearing wear had occured and hence the oil pressure issues.
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Do you know what pressure the switch activates at? ....
No. I'll see if I can find out. :)
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Given the pics you posted, I would not be overly surprised if some bearing wear had occured and hence the oil pressure issues.
Mmmm :( That's what I'm frightened of. :'( :'(
Goes to show how much better a well serviced car is compared with one that isn't. ::)
Maybe an oil change with hypoid 90 & sell the bugger ::) ::)
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Do you know what pressure the switch activates at? ....
No. I'll see if I can find out. :)
If this one is OEM spec. it suggests not a lot. :-/
http://seekpart24.com/hella/oil-pressure-switch-6zl008280061?c=100478&at=13106
Switch Pressure [bar]: 0,15-0,35
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Autodata suggests that oil pressure should be 2.0-2.5 bar at 750-950 rpm
HTH :y
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Do you know what pressure the switch activates at? ....
No. I'll see if I can find out. :)
If this one is OEM spec. it suggests not a lot. :-/
http://seekpart24.com/hella/oil-pressure-switch-6zl008280061?c=100478&at=13106
Switch Pressure [bar]: 0,15-0,35
Kin ell, thats bugger all of bugger all!
I thought the Vx one was low at 0.5 Bar
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Do you know what pressure the switch activates at? ....
No. I'll see if I can find out. :)
If this one is OEM spec. it suggests not a lot. :-/
http://seekpart24.com/hella/oil-pressure-switch-6zl008280061?c=100478&at=13106
Switch Pressure [bar]: 0,15-0,35
Kin ell, thats bugger all of bugger all!
I thought the Vx one was low at 0.5 Bar
Yeah, much like the Toyota one it's not a "warning: there's something amiss" light it's now a "congratulations, you're boned!" light :-/
Granted if it's only flickering at idle it's probably not doing too much damage - as long as the pressure is healthy off idle. But what cars come fitted with oil pressure gauges these days? :(
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Granted if it's only flickering at idle it's probably not doing too much damage - as long as the pressure is healthy off idle. But what cars come fitted with oil pressure gauges these days? :(
No many, more's the pity. Mrs. KW's MX-5 has one, but it's fake and just fed from an oil pressure switch. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/bangshead.gif)
I know the majority of drivers wouldn't have the first clue what it's telling them, but for those who do it can mean the difference between a wrecked engine and a lucky escape.
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Granted if it's only flickering at idle it's probably not doing too much damage - as long as the pressure is healthy off idle. But what cars come fitted with oil pressure gauges these days? :(
No many, more's the pity. Mrs. KW's MX-5 has one, but it's fake and just fed from an oil pressure switch. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/bangshead.gif)
I know the majority of drivers wouldn't have the first clue what it's telling them, but for those who do it can mean the difference between a wrecked engine and a lucky escape.
Indeed! The 300ZX has one, but that's the last (production) car I saw with one in :-/ Better to save a few quid on every car and pay out the occasional warranty claim than spend the extra on every single car, I suppose.
The number of times I've seen "I was doing 70 on the motorway and the light came on, now the engine sounds like a bag of spanners.." just isn't funny (especially on the MR2 which has somewhat of a reputation for drinking the contents of it's own sump)
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The problem is, if you give an idiot a gauge they will constantly worry about it, and oil pressure does vary significantly within acceptable limits, as we know.
There would be those who would pester their main dealer every time it varied.
Same with temperature gauges, and why a lot of cars are going to warning lights there. People see it vary and worry.
Again, the MX 5 example. The temperature gauge is fed by the ECU and it rises steadily to the mid position after startup and stays there despite the actual temperature varying. I know that for a fact having forgotten to reconnect the cooling fan after the last cam belt change. ::) Sat there wondering why the coolant temperature was stable but the fan hadn't kicked in. All of a sudden "Boing!" up into the red about 5 seconds before the pressure cap let go and all hell broke loose. ::)
So, cars are made "idiot proof". I do wonder why they don't build a bit of intelligence into the "red light", though.
i.e. 1.5 bar of pressure at idle= OK,
1.5 bar with WOT passing through 5000 RPM = (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/shitsfan.gif)
Then again, I'm sure selling replacement engines is a lucrative business for them. ::)
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Very good point - I suppose that's why they're called "idiot lights"; any idiot can tell when something is wrong by looking at them..
Cheap senders used on gauges tend to fail over time as well and I suspect (though this is just a guess really) that a simple pressure switch is more reliable - older 300ZX's often have 'vagueometer' senders for oil pressure & coolant temperature.
I suppose that's why they don't have a variable trigger point warning lamp for oil pressure, too. Actually I wonder if any aftermarket dash has that feature (I'm thinking of things like the Stack digital dashboards)?
You're right though - much more profit in replacement parts than cars, I imagine!
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Yep, fair point. Oil pressure transducers are pretty unreliable unless some decent money has been spent on them.
Variable oil pressure warning sounds like a new Megasquirt feature unless it's already been done. ;)
TBH most who care probably install a 2BAR+ pressure switch and accept the fact that it'll flicker when they sit idling in traffic on a hot day.
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Autodata suggests that oil pressure should be 2.0-2.5 bar at 750-950 rpm
HTH :y
Correct!
Just been to MB to get another oil filter and asked him what pressure the pressure switch put the light on. He didn't know :-? but dug out the pressures at cold idle & hot idle. Cold it should be 4.0 to 4.5 bar and as you say 20 to 2.5 bar at operating temp.
What he also went to to say was, that they do a 're-build kit' of parts ie shell bearings, gaskets, head bolts, timing chain & sprockets etc etc. All told comes to £333.72 inc vat which, considering MB prices doesn't seem too bad.
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Yep, fair point. Oil pressure transducers are pretty unreliable unless some decent money has been spent on them.
Yup, I chuckle each time folks on the Cobra forums post about their hideously inaccurate - and very expensive! - period-look electric sender gauges.. They require a special external 10.5V voltage regulator, and even then seem about as accurate as a Channel 5 weather forecaster.
Variable oil pressure warning sounds like a new Megasquirt feature unless it's already been done. ;)
That would be quite interesting :) I was pondering the idea of throwing out the Accel DFI & Ignition system on the FE and going Megasquirt.. then again, the Accel stuff does look quite nice (and it's not cheap new!) - the 'distributor' (really just a position sensor in a fancy billet housing) looks very nice indeed.
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I was pondering the idea of throwing out the Accel DFI & Ignition system on the FE and going Megasquirt.. then again, the Accel stuff does look quite nice (and it's not cheap new!) - the 'distributor' (really just a position sensor in a fancy billet housing) looks very nice indeed.
It's not exactly rocket science (despite what some would claim) so, if you have a complete set of bits including software to tune it, etc. why change it? (unless you can sell it for silly money).
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It's not exactly rocket science (despite what some would claim) so, if you have a complete set of bits including software to tune it, etc. why change it? (unless you can sell it for silly money).
Largely just because I like tinkering - and Megasquirt gives endless opportunities for tinkering :) Though as you say, probably not worth complicating matters, really.
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To be honest, running with oil pressures that low on modern cars even at idle, is not going to lube the bearings that well particularly as modern engine are more reliant on pressure than flow.
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... as modern engine are more reliant on pressure than flow.
ie to support the big end or main bearing with pressurised oil rather than white metal to crank contact.
It'll give me something to do won't it! ::) It must be 20 years ago since I've been so far inside an engine ....... :-?
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... as modern engine are more reliant on pressure than flow.
ie to support the big end or main bearing with pressurised oil rather than white metal to crank contact.
It'll give me something to do won't it! ::) It must be 20 years ago since I've been so far inside an engine ....... :-?
Go through the above checks first :y
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re spec. I've found a trusted Smart engine rebuilder's website recommending 5W-50 :-? :-? so even viscous-er!!
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re spec. I've found a trusted Smart engine rebuilder's website recommending 5W-50 :-? :-? so even viscous-er!!
Hmm. But that's always the bodger's solution to low oil pressure. ;)
Manufacturer's recommended oil should really work. They will have done plenty of testing on it. Someone who can rebuild an engine is not necessarily qualified to specify an oil for it, and an engine where it drops to 0.35 BAR regardless of whether the oil is a grade above or below the recommended has issues, IMHO. :-/
Maybe you'll get 0.45 bar with a thicker oil so the light goes off. Problem solved except there's now less oil flow.
I would say get it checked with a gauge and check the relief valve for a start. :y
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Maybe you'll get 0.45 bar with a thicker oil so the light goes off. Problem solved except there's now less oil flow.
I would say get it checked with a gauge and check the relief valve for a start. :y
At the moment the low oil pressure light seems to be behaving itself with Vx's finest semi-skimmed 10W-40 in! ;) ;)
There's a cheap gauge on eBay at the moment clicky (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260854460057?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1864wt_970) but I think we all know what it'll say. :(
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coo, does it come with the drill holder to?
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coo, does it come with the drill holder to?
I wish! ;D ;D ;D
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coo, does it come with the drill holder to?
I wish! ;D ;D ;D
You're going to need a tap holder as well to re-thread your metric thread in the engine, but she might have a sister, I suppose. :y
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coo, does it come with the drill holder to?
I wish! ;D ;D ;D
You're going to need a tap holder as well to re-thread your metric thread in the engine, but she might have a sister, I suppose. :y
Oh yes! Well spotted! :y :y
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Wouldn't fit my TD anyway, mine has a round plate with three Allen screws. Anyone ever tried to rig a gauge up to one?
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oops - I was wrong, the fitting with the Allen screws must be the Oil LEVEL sender, not found the pressure sender yet. Anyone know the whereabouts on the TD?