Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Markie on 19 August 2007, 15:56:49
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Pulling a K series apart that i bought for £135...
Started dismanteling the head a few weeks ago after compression test showed 0 compression in chamber 2 and reduced in 4.
Immediately realised someone has made an arse of previous head removal and two head bolts are rounded...cant get anything on them...
Decided therefore that this would bea learning curve and id simply pull it apart bit by bit.
So far have cam sprockets, camshafts and hydraulic tappets removed with engine in situ...
Question - what else can i remove " for the sake of it" with head still in place ( albeit with 2 of 16 head bolts holding it on)
Am i right in thinking i cant remove valves at this stage?
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Pulling a K series apart that i bought for £135...
Started dismanteling the head a few weeks ago after compression test showed 0 compression in chamber 2 and reduced in 4.
Immediately realised someone has made an arse of previous head removal and two head bolts are rounded...cant get anything on them...
Decided therefore that this would bea learning curve and id simply pull it apart bit by bit.
So far have cam sprockets, camshafts and hydraulic tappets removed with engine in situ...
Question - what else can i remove " for the sake of it" with head still in place ( albeit with 2 of 16 head bolts holding it on)
Am i right in thinking i cant remove valves at this stage?
You can't remove valves with head on - as they wouldn't come up through their seat, and you wouldn't be able to compress the springs to remove the collets.
If it's a rover, what are the head bolts, Torx E12/14?
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thought so James...
E10 on the bolts....
tried every combination of torx / metric socket etc i can the last two are mangled.....did eventually manage to get a metric hammered on but rounded eventually again
Cant even grip them and tighten them ( in an attempt to snap them ::))
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thought so James...
E10 on the bolts....
tried every combination of torx / metric socket etc i can the last two are mangled.....did eventually manage to get a metric hammered on but rounded eventually again
Cant even grip them and tighten them ( in an attempt to snap them ::))
PM me your address. If it gets desperate, I have some "magic" sockets that "cut" into the head of the bolt for a grip, they have NEVER failed yet (presuming you use the right sized one!).
When breaking my Elite, I didn't have a T50 for the cam sprocket bolts, so I removed them using the magic socket, they pulled off some extremely tight bolts, with COMPLETELY round heads ;D ;D
Trying to over tighten them in hope to snap them will give you HUGE troubles, possibly stripped thread in the block (remember how long those K series bolts are)... please don't do this!! ;)
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thought so James...
E10 on the bolts....
tried every combination of torx / metric socket etc i can the last two are mangled.....did eventually manage to get a metric hammered on but rounded eventually again
Cant even grip them and tighten them ( in an attempt to snap them ::))
PM me your address. If it gets desperate, I have some "magic" sockets that "cut" into the head of the bolt for a grip, they have NEVER failed yet (presuming you use the right sized one!).
When breaking my Elite, I didn't have a T50 for the cam sprocket bolts, so I removed them using the magic socket, they pulled off some extremely tight bolts, with COMPLETELY round heads ;D ;D
Trying to over tighten them in hope to snap them will give you HUGE troubles, possibly stripped thread in the block (remember how long those K series bolts are)... please don't do this!! ;)
Good Call James.....i remembered my magic sockets....
Well more my special occasion Snap On`s,,,
Ive just leathered e8 on one, original size e10 not as stated by me above e12.
Then attaced a series of sockets and adaptors and my 2 foot breaker bar, slowley but surely i have the last two out.. :y
So i now have..
Top off
16 shiney tappets removed from head
2 cam sprockets removed from head
2 camshafts removed from head
Ive also got a bottom end of same model car but different vehicle on an engine hoist at the back of the garage...
Now the fun starts 8-)
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Have you got a valve spring compressor with a long reach on it?
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Have you got a valve spring compressor with a long reach on it?
errrr nope, did i say fun time....i meant shopping time ;D
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Your next step should be to find out why the compression was low......its normaly a valve, sometimes a holed piston......its unlikely to be rings though.
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Your next step should be to find out why the compression was low......its normaly a valve, sometimes a holed piston......its unlikely to be rings though.
Of Course ;)
When i established compression as 212 / 0 / 212/ 172 i knew the head wasnt re usable in its current form
I was originlly thinking valves so loking to remove them first for inspection ( when proper tool purchased...)
Will post some pictures when i am clean and allowed into house to fetch camera :-X laptop perched at back door on wireless and its as close as i am allowed to house....
Would be intrested to know from Mark and James v6 if anything untoward appears in the pictures, i cant immediatly see anything...
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Top end wise, It could only be, hole in a valve, or a valve not seating properly... possibly it's had (and not entirely survived) a cambelt failure?
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Top end wise, It could only be, hole in a valve, or a valve not seating properly... possibly it's had (and not entirely survived) a cambelt failure?
intrestingly cambelt looked spot on - but cam locking tool would not fit between sprockets :o
Also intrestingly ( maybe lol) chamber 2 kaput, chamber 4 low on compression.
Chamber 4 exhaust manifold "port" is leaking engine oil and throttle body also has engine oil in it.
Fair to say the drive home in this car was not excellent. Clear even at that point it was on 3 cylinders. Shame as original owner had put new plugs, leads and dizzy on it to try and cure its problem :-X
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Hang on. Are you saying that, engine oil is coming up through the head, into the exhaust manifold ports? on just one cylinder?
Surely if that's the case, the only way this would happen is if the oil control ring is shagged on that piston?
I would though, expect steadily increasing compression (albeit it still low), instead of zero..
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Hang on. Are you saying that, engine oil is coming up through the head, into the exhaust manifold ports? on just one cylinder?
Surely if that's the case, the only way this would happen is if the oil control ring is shagged on that piston?
I would though, expect steadily increasing compression (albeit it still low), instead of zero..
Yup, thats the case....was compresion tested several times and showed identical results...
piccies to follow in half an hour or so :y
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I'm not sure head pics will help if that's the case, it sounds more like piston trouble to me :'(
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I'm not sure head pics will help if that's the case, it sounds more like piston trouble to me :'(
its possible ( looking again at the physical parts) that its had rocket cover leak form one side....could have possibly leaked over and around exhuast manifold....maybe even into it..
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I'm not sure head pics will help if that's the case, it sounds more like piston trouble to me :'(
its possible ( looking again at the physical parts) that its had rocket cover leak form one side....could have possibly leaked over and around exhuast manifold....maybe even into it..
Wouldn't explain why oil is also coming up through the inlet into the throttle body :-/
was it a substantial amount?
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Time to take a step back people....
1) The oil control ring is exactly that....a control device. It ensures an even coating of oil on the bore and stops to much getting to the compression rings.
2) 0 compression cant be due to a broken ring....thre are at least three rings on the engine!
3) Do the parafin test on the head.......this will show if the valves are sealing correctly.....it must be done before stripping he head
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I agree with Mark's suggestions. With the camshafts out, (so valves are all up against their seats) - on a close inspection, are they all seating right? (especailly on the cylinder that's playing up).
If you can't see anything, do as Mark suggests, the paraffin test - it will show if any valves are not sealing in their seats for whatever reason..
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Oooooop head already off before Marks suggestion....
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pictures aint perfect.....and head is not yet cleaned, oil in throtle body was not that bad....just something i havent seen before...
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/markiec23/DSCF3583.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/markiec23/DSCF3582.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/markiec23/DSCF3581.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/markiec23/DSCF3580.jpg)
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I can't see from the pics but in order to get 0 compression there must be a big hole somewhere :-/ Just like James's LPG head on his Veccy, a lump of valve was missing. I would have thought there should be something quite obvious to see :-/
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You Need the head off for Mark's suggestion ;)
Ok, put the plugs back in.
Put the head down (in a tray), valve side up.
Fill each bank of valves with an equal amount of parrafin (as much as you can), and see if the level drops.
If it does, it indicates a poor valve seal... (against the seat)....
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Look for the parafin appearing in an inlet or exhaust port.
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Look for the parafin appearing in an inlet or exhaust port.
Im done for tonight, and by the look of my outlook calander i doubt im going to get much more done prior to the weekend :'(
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Looks like number 1 cylinder has been steam cleaned to me......much cleaner than the rest of them both on the head and the block so thats a major head gasket failure.
God that K series block design is bloody awful.....no lateral support between cylinders just drop in liners.......no wonder it has problems.
Get a straight edge on the head....I bet its warped.
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Looks like number 1 cylinder has been steam cleaned to me......much cleaner than the rest of them both on the head and the block so thats a major head gasket failure.
God that K series block design is bloody awful.....no lateral support between cylinders just drop in liners.......no wonder it has problems.
Get a straight edge on the head....I bet its warped.
And i bet your right, the head gasket looked in resonable condition to me, ie not the original from a 1998 car with 100000miles on it.....
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Looks like number 1 cylinder has been steam cleaned to me......much cleaner than the rest of them both on the head and the block so thats a major head gasket failure.
God that K series block design is bloody awful.....no lateral support between cylinders just drop in liners.......no wonder it has problems.
Get a straight edge on the head....I bet its warped.
And i bet your right, the head gasket looked in resonable condition to me, ie not the original from a 1998 car with 100000miles on it.....
Thats probably its third then......
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Looks like number 1 cylinder has been steam cleaned to me......much cleaner than the rest of them both on the head and the block so thats a major head gasket failure.
God that K series block design is bloody awful.....no lateral support between cylinders just drop in liners.......no wonder it has problems.
Get a straight edge on the head....I bet its warped.
And i bet your right, the head gasket looked in resonable condition to me, ie not the original from a 1998 car with 100000miles on it.....
Thats probably its third then......
I got 72k out of mine....
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Looks like number 1 cylinder has been steam cleaned to me......much cleaner than the rest of them both on the head and the block so thats a major head gasket failure.
God that K series block design is bloody awful.....no lateral support between cylinders just drop in liners.......no wonder it has problems.
Get a straight edge on the head....I bet its warped.
And i bet your right, the head gasket looked in resonable condition to me, ie not the original from a 1998 car with 100000miles on it.....
Thats probably its third then......
I got 72k out of mine....
thats pretty good,but then you probably look after the Rover ;) those that dont generally get 50-60k
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Small update on this.....whereby my powers of observation will be reprimanded by Mr DTM...
All my attention was focused on the head and valves.
Remember 0 compression on no2 and 20% reduced compression on no4. Oil from exhaust manifold on no4.
Last night whilst tidying workshop i just happened to glance at the block which is still inthe car.....
number 4 cylinder has a hole in it ::) :o so would that explain oil and obviously low compression.
Now if thats what happens to nomber 4 with low compression what on earth will i uncover on no2 no compression !!
I have an identical block on a hoist currently so sometime / somehow i can create a complete engine from this lot...
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.....Last night whilst tidying workshop I just happened to glance at the block which is still in the car..... number 4 cylinder has a hole in it ::) :o so would that explain oil and obviously low compression...
Remember Markie, that you are a Honours Graduate from the Stevie Wonder School of Carwashing so you have a wee track record of sometimes missing what perhaps could be obvious..... :P ;D :y
Sounds like you have all the bits there to rebuild, as well as past experience. Get stuck in!! ;)
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Pictures of the piston crowns would be good....
WIth a hole in the piston, I'm slightly surprised there is any compression, I guess its not a very big one!
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Pictures of the piston crowns would be good....
WIth a hole in the piston, I'm slightly surprised there is any compression, I guess its not a very big one!
Yep, was dark last night and at work today, will get some pictures up later.
When i say a hole its an indentation of 1.5cm along right in the middle, with a screwdriver head sized hole.
But i do get the impression that forcing (for example) a 10mm spanner along it will see the hole get substantially larger.
Number 2 with no compression is "perfect" at this stage...
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Is the timing adjustable on them, if so it might have been pinking badly.
Or running very lean.
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Is the timing adjustable on them, if so it might have been pinking badly.
Or running very lean.
Both :( car running very lean on its death drive ( back to my garage) Timing was also woefully out of place....dont know if related but my K series cam locking tool wouldnt fit between sprockets.....they seemed fractionally too close together
It truley was the worst kept car mechanically i havd ever seen. In an attempt to resolve its running issues it had a brand new complete exhaust system, brand new plugs, leads, coil, dizzy cap and fuel filter.
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Complete rebuild me thinks
Will you still rebuild the head? I hope so... ;D
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If it's been running lean enough to hole a piston the exhaust valves and seats will have taken a bit of punishment, so I'd be rebuilding the head and lapping the valves back in after a careful check at a minimum.
.. assuming the yet-to-be-found gaping hole in no.4 is not in the head, of course. ;)
Thinking about it, the pocketing in the piston crowns looks odd. Have the pistons been pocketed for 2 different valve arrangements to save money or are some of those marks the result of valves bouncing off pistons?
Kevin
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Complete rebuild me thinks
Will you still rebuild the head? I hope so... ;D
I think so - remember this is now a not for profit, not for use head rebuild, i find i learn best this way and i want/ need to learn.
Unfortunately those of us too far north cant really get first hand viewing and learning from the masters at work ( Aka those that have an input to this thread :) )
Therefore we need tae dae it oorsels ;)
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tonight i wil take some good pictures of the block thats hanging on the engine hoise from a previous rover ( it has no issues) and post the pictures back to back with the photographs from the head from the car currently being dismantled. That should allow for much better analysis of the markings.... ;)
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If you're not in a rush.. Swmbo and I want to head to Fort william again to see all the places we missed last time - as soon as I can blag time off.
I'll happily give you a hand with a head rebuild.
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Having said that, it's really not a difficult job, and well within your capabilities if you can change head gaskets..
I was really nervous about taking mine apart, but after some guidance from all here, especially Mark and Kevin - I tackled it, and surprised myself at how easy it was.
Have you got that valve spring compessor yet ;)
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Having said that, it's really not a difficult job, and well within your capabilities if you can change head gaskets..
I was really nervous about taking mine apart, but after some guidance from all here, especially Mark and Kevin - I tackled it, and surprised myself at how easy it was.
Have you got that valve spring compessor yet ;)
No rush at all, will take its place between misfiring tow car, Rover head change, and vectra radiator rebuild....
Lack of rush shown in the fact i dont have spring compressor yet....any recommendations?
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£35 from Halfrauds. It's laser, but bloody good.....
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£35 from Halfrauds. It's laser, but bloody good.....
how about...
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht459-hd-valve-spring-compressor
£10 cheaper, no halfords in city centre but there is machine mart....i need to check the clearance obviously.
This is where the women get confused - call home to SWMBO to measure head height, then despatch a girly from the office to local machine mart with a shopping list ;D ;D cant go myself i am to busy here... :-X
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compared to mine, it doesn't look up to the job.. I may be wrong...
Pay the £10 extra if I were you (or borrow mine)..
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The machine mart one is more than upto the job but, I would get a lever operated one as they a lot easier (and quicker) to use.
Machine mart also do a lever one.