Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: bertiecbx550 on 29 August 2007, 20:01:53
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i had my disciplinary today for taking my lorry down a country lane to deliver a washing machine and for alledgdey knocking a dry stone wall down... i have never been in serious trouble with my gaffers in all my time at comet but today i was told that i had driven without due care and attention by ignoring a road traffic sign that said single track road with passing places thus knocking the wall down... as some of you might know i have also recived a notice of intended prosecution from staffs police for 2 offences
1 driving without due care and attention and 2 driving without due care and consideration in relation to above mentioned problem...now i asked my line manager what kind of support i would get from comet in regard to a court case if it went that far with the police..do you know what they said? "comet does not stand by it employees in cases like this, it is up to the person concerned to arrange private solicitors"
now i have never denied not going down that road i did because it was the only access to the house to complete said delivery but i have not done any damage to anybodys property i am not the kind of person who would knock a wall over an drive off...but what i find incredible is you put a lot of effort into doing your job right and making sure you play an important part in giving your company a good name
but when you need em in your moment of most need they dump you like a bad smell...i`m pissed off and very upset tonight....
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I'm afraid Comet are not the exception these days. It's the way of the world these days. You have my sympathy...and good luck if it does get to court.
As a footnote, it's not unusual for someone to claim that a delivery driver collided with their wall/car/prize orange tree. It's highly likely that comets insurance will pay out without too much hassle.
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The next time you have a situation like this refuse to deliver on the basis that you should not go down roads like this...Play them at their own game.. :y
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Have to agree with STMO, you'll find companies/mangers will be behind and support you all the way. that is until you do something wrong then its slopey shoulders and dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out :(
Good luck with the court :y
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If you had knocked down the said wall, was there damage to the truck?, and as said in the previous post refuse to go down roads wth a large lorry, they'll need ot get a wee van for said deliveries then and do their homework first. Also if you have direct contact with your office, advise them via mobile? of the rod restrictions eg single track, then let them advise you.
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On what strength are they prosecuting you? Someone's word against yours?
I guess Comet's attitude is about what I'd expect having been a customer of theirs however the least they could do is to write a statement saying there was no damage to their vehicle to support the claim, etc. As the operator of the vehicle they do share some of the responsibility surely?
Besides that, who sent you down that road in the first place? and how understanding would they have been if you refused to make the delivery on grounds that you couldn't safely drive down that road?
I do hope it gets resolved favourably though.
Kevin
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What proof does the wall owner have that it was you and your waggon that was responsible? What proof do you have that your vehicle was undamaged before/after? Making the delivery confirms your attendance (unless you pushed it there on a barrow...) so its the proving of guilt, not innocence, that a court will seek to confirm.
Your firm will take the easiest possible route by allowing the insurance to pay out. Their thinking is the balance of actual claims is negligable in comparison to possible claims, if you follow. Your managers will undoubtedly be following 'company procedure' by allowing the court to decide who did or did not do the deed. You need to prove that it was not you. Did you have a second man in the cab who guided you in/out?
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i had my disciplinary today for taking my lorry down a country lane to deliver a washing machine and for alledgdey knocking a dry stone wall down... i have never been in serious trouble with my gaffers in all my time at comet but today i was told that i had driven without due care and attention by ignoring a road traffic sign that said single track road with passing places thus knocking the wall down... as some of you might know i have also recived a notice of intended prosecution from staffs police for 2 offences
1 driving without due care and attention and 2 driving without due care and consideration in relation to above mentioned problem...now i asked my line manager what kind of support i would get from comet in regard to a court case if it went that far with the police..do you know what they said? "comet does not stand by it employees in cases like this, it is up to the person concerned to arrange private solicitors"
now i have never denied not going down that road i did because it was the only access to the house to complete said delivery but i have not done any damage to anybodys property i am not the kind of person who would knock a wall over an drive off...but what i find incredible is you put a lot of effort into doing your job right and making sure you play an important part in giving your company a good name
but when you need em in your moment of most need they dump you like a bad smell...i`m pissed off and very upset tonight....
Firstly, a final written is a serious matter were you represented?
What grounds did the company have for issuing the final written warning?
Has the vehicle been checked for damage? Is there any that would concur with the accusation I'm not saying that you did it, but damage in a similar position on the truck would lead them to think you had which is obviously what the have concluded in the disciplinary.
I think you need to speak to your regional office and get them to represent you at an appeal.
Common sense would say that no decision should have been made until the outcome of the police action, but employers sometimes don't run on common sense.
The problem at the moment is even though the court may well find you not guilty your company has jumped the gun and decided on your guilt without any real proof and by the time this gets to court it will be too late to address that. Lodge an appeal (within five working days in my company) and get union advice right away.
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my tgwu rep was disgusted at the way i was treated in the meeting and he reckons that the outcome had already been decided before hand now unfortunatley i used to have full union protection including solictors and such like but since i had to go onto an iva for my debts i had to lower my union payments so now i`m not covered...as for points on my licence this would ban me thus involve me being sacked as i could not drive any more for comet...no win senario is really starting to come to mind....
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As far as work is concerned, if you did not do what you were accused of you must appeal against the final written warning in accordance with your company's disciplinary and grievance procedure. If you don't do this you don't have a leg to stand on. For better advice contact ACAS at (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=301). They are there to help and will give you first rate up to date advice.
As far as the criminal prosecution is concerned, you have received a 'notice of intended prosecution'? What for? Is it for the offence of failing to heed the road sign? Did you ignore a weight limit? If it is for driving without due care and attention and their evidence is the broken wall, what evidence do they have that you hit the wall. If, as you say, you didn't hit the wall then they can't have any evidence and you should go not guilty. It is not good enough for them to say that it must have been you, they must present evidence and if they can't they won't even go to court. You need to find out what evidence they say they have.
Are you a member of the union? If so contact them. If not can you join one to get legal assistance? Check all of you insurance policies, many have hidden legal protection so check it out. I persued an unfair dismissal claim through my household contents policy a few years back and had £000's of pounds of representation for the cost of my excess.
The bottom line is, if you're not guilty, go not guilty.
Good luck mate.
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Don't Comet expect you to check your vehicle for damage of a morning before you leave the depot, and then they check you back in in the evening. That's how it works at our company therefore if a debrief manager signs you in of an evening with no damage how could you have had an accident?
It's their system use it against them.
This would also help with your court matter, if you can provide a logsheet showing the vehicle returned to base undamaged.
I'm sure Hotel21 will correct me if I'm wrong but I was unaware that taking a goods vehicle down a road signposted "single track with passing places" would amount to driving without due care, if it's the only access to an address surely any large vehicle delivering to that address would need to use it.
As said previously if it looks too narrow/tight in future return it to the depot as undeliverable, you are the driver and in your opinion you can't get the vehicle to the drop safely don't.
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we do vehicle check sheets every morning or at least did till 1 month ago when a new transport manager changed our system to cut down on paper wasteage(shes a member of the green party) until then i was well known for complaing about damage or rubbish left in my wagon by other crews on my days off and when we got back on that day the twilight shift supervisor checked the lorry and said and i quote " i can not find any new damage to this van it all corresponds with what is already on the damage sheets you have already filled out gaz..." now unfortunately i could not call this person into the disciplinary today as he has just recently lost his wife to cancer but his word was ignored today as was my photos of the road and route the lorry took and of the photos i took of the lorry to show that there was no new damage or signs of damage i.e. dents scratches or bits of brick rubble in the bodywork....now i have never known anything like this before it really felt like a kangaroo court i might as well stolen from or mugged an OAP cause it just seems that comapnies dont need little things like evidence they just need someone to say you did it and thats that... So you know what lads i`m in shropshire tommorrow and their are a lot of little country lanes round there so something tells me that i`ll be re-routing a lot and the fts success on my run might well be a lot lower 2mora than what they think it should be....
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Abslolutely without predjudice or taking any particular stance on the matter..... :y
As CaptainZok says, a single track road is only that - a road wide enough for the roads engineer to deem it suitable for only one 'vehicle' at a time and has provided passing places so that two can pass.
If there was a weight/height restriction on the same road then that would be signposted in addition and stipulated at a suitable place to allow any overweight/oversize vehicle to take an alternate route.
As the vehicle driver, it is your responsibility to assess whether any road or part of a road is suitable - or safe - for you to take your vehicle down or past - it belongs to Comet, but in your care for the timebeing. If that means getting out the vehicle and walking the route to judge suitable, so be it. If you decide at the outset 'I'm not going down there' then head home, simple. Item undelivered. If you decide its safe and, partway, have a change of mind then unfortunately, its up to you to get yourself out of it again. If, in the process, you collide with and damage something well, unfortunately, so be it. It was your choice to go there at the outset....
If you go down the road, make the delivery and safely get out again, brill!! You have obviously done better than others have done. You must therefore ensure that you have the proof to show your vehicle is undamaged when it was in your care. As stated, use Comet's paperwork and systems, if you can. A line manager would have signed an undamaged vehicle out to you and another accepted it back in again. Provided you did not pass a rickety wall at warp speed such that wind gusts blew it down - well, it must have been unsafe in the first instance....
Best of luck.
B
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>:(Big companies are lousy at backing thier drivers up. Yo're just a number and cheaper to replace than support. Most weight limit or unsuitable for hgv/large vehicles have an "except for access" underneath in which case you're covered legally even if comet sack you. How long have you worked for them? Sometimes unfair dismissal actions can scare them off.
Let us know how you get on. :o
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So did it happen over a month ago?
If so get a copy of that day's logsheet, the day befores and the day afters showing your vehicle signed out without damage, a copy of the damage log for that vehicle and a statement from the supervisor to say you returned it undamaged it will help your case, did you have a mate with you, a statement from him saying you didn't have an accident will also help you prove your innocence.
If you appeal this will be to someone more senior to the original disciplinary and evidence such as the above could sway their decision.
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Dear Comet
Why don't you take your shite job and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. You are a vrap company selling crap goods - WTF are 'electricals' anyway? Electrical items, yes. Electronic gadgets, yes, Elictricals? WTF is that?
Appart from anything else, Gail Porter is a moose and anyone that uses her nagging Glasgy voice to advertise isn't worth woking for anyway.
So, on the count of three, ONE, TWO, THREE....... SHOVE IT!
Loads of love
Ronnie
ps.... Now I know this doesn't help much, but you should feel all the better for knowing that I have actually sent much worse before!
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you should feel all the better for knowing that I have actually sent much worse before!
Somehow... I have no problems believing this!!
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I'm afraid Comet are not the exception these days. It's the way of the world these days. You have my sympathy...and good luck if it does get to court.
As a footnote, it's not unusual for someone to claim that a delivery driver collided with their wall/car/prize orange tree. It's highly likely that comets insurance will pay out without too much hassle.
Hi,
I remember one incident i had whilst working for Securicor. We were issued with our own vans and one Monday morning was called into the Managers office and told that someone in Ealing had rung in to report my van hitting their parked car and had kept on driving, this supposedly on my regular Friday run in Ealing the previous Friday.
Well when the Manager asked what i had to say about the accident i asked what the person had reported and why they thought it was me because vans from other areas also worked there. His answer was he had taken down your reg. #!
Well whenever i used a different van because mine was off the road for some reason i would write it down in a book i kept with my hours worked etc. and when i checked my book i had indeed used another van that day much to my delight :) and obviously the car owner had seen my van on a regular basis and was trying it on >:(.
Worst of all was my Manager said he had checked up and knew my van was off the road that day and seemed gutted that i knew also, i never did like that git >:(.
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...Worst of all was my Manager said he had checked up and knew my van was off the road that day and seemed gutted that i knew also, i never did like that git >:(.
Unbelievable... he knew you didn't do it and yet was happy to have you disciplined on the chance that you wouldn't check the records? >:(
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I had something similar happen to me when I used to work for City Link, i was reversing down a women's drive and knocked over her bird bath ::), i tell you what that women could swear, i just kept calm, gave her the office phone number and told her not to worry they would sort it out.
When i got back that night, she had phoned and told them i was swearing at her, told her to PI$$ OFF, well i did not not.
And who do you think they believed, yep it was her..... :-[
I got a writtne warning for that....
The Swines... :y
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...Worst of all was my Manager said he had checked up and knew my van was off the road that day and seemed gutted that i knew also, i never did like that git >:(.
Unbelievable... he knew you didn't do it and yet was happy to have you disciplined on the chance that you wouldn't check the records? >:(
there are some a...holes around - bet he wasn't an Omega driver.
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I'm struggling with this...
A final warning is a serious thing. On what basis was this issued precisely?
'alledgedly' isn't good enough - who is alledging it? on what basis? you can prove no damage to your vehicle with the pics which backs up your case that you didn't do it. 'Ignoring a road sign' - what doesn that mean - was it a height/weight/load restriction? Single track road with passing places does not legally mean you can't take your vehicle down it.
Is there any evidence/witness that you knocked the wall down? If not I doubt the police would prosecute if they had no way of proving it. Why are they involved at all? If you have a minor accident the police wouldn't normally be involved unless their is personal injury. Have they interviewed you? - did you tell them that it wasn't you and you have pics of your vehicle to prove no corresponding damage.
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no i`ve not been interviewed by the plods yet... all they have done is send a notice of intended prosecution to me and asked me to send my details to em... somehow i doubt i will be interviewed by em as for work i am gonna appeal and i am currently trying to find out from the highways agency or staffs council as to what the axel weight is on the road and the restrictions around there concerning lorries i.e. bin wagons have to go there dont they?? removal lorries? other delivery vehicles??? one thing i did find out today was that they sent an engineer to take a photo of the sign down there and ask his opinion of what the road was like...but when i asked where his statement was they said they did not require one and its funny i am now being denied access to vehicle defect sheets.....stitch up or what?? i think they want me to walk out and quit and i think its all about me complaining about drivers hours and crews coming back late at night.....coincedence or what???
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The fact that a NIP has been served does not mean that a prosecution is going to happen. Police will issue this immediately to ensure all avenues are kept open.
It does seem to me (based on what I've read here) that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution. More likely, a resident has contacted the police over a damaged wall and reported it as a fail to report/stop.
If you had no knowledge of the collision, then you wouldn't stop - a plausible explanation.
I believe you will need to be interviewed at some stage if the police decide to pursue this. My advice is to:-
1) Agree to the interview.
2) Insist that the interview takes place at a police station.
3) Free and independent legal advice is offered during interview at a police station which you should take.
Why would the courts or the CPS want to pursue a case of Section 3 (Careless) when nobody was injured and you have provided a good explanation (ie you were doing a delivery to a location with only one route, you knew not of the collision and there was no new damage).
Seems to me like a non-starter as far as criminal prosecutions go.....
As for the disciplinary route, appeal, appeal and appeal again.
Final written warnings usually have two stages of appeal and you can mention all the issues you ave raised here. Ensure your union rep or equavalent is present!!
Good luck!!
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Fight the nip!
Very similar happened to a neighbour of mine.....whos also a taxi driver.
He got sent a nip for failing to stop after an accident.....he was alledged to have reversed into a parked car.....he was invited for an interview......either his home or police station.....he chose police station.
He turned up and was interviewed.....he was asked serveral questions....recorded!
He denied reversing into the car......and asked why think it was him.....police officer said taxi plate number was taken......police contacted local council and his details were provided.
He was asked by police if he was in this street at the time of alledged offence.....he said he couldnt remember.....they replied yes he was as they had contacted his office who had given details of a pickup in the street at the time.....so he agreed then he must of been.
My neighbour asked how much damage was done.....police officer replied substantial.....so my neighbour...said so my car must be damaged quite a bit as well.....officer replied most likely.
Then my neighbour insisted the officer take a look as his car to see any damage.....and wouldnt proceed with the interview without that happening......might have been a leanent officer but he agreed to suspend the interview and have a look.
This he did.....and commented no damage apparent tho you might have had replacement bumper and respray.....Neighbour said you can get forensic if you like......the paint on the bumper is the same/age as the rest of car.
Result was a week later......he had a letter.....nip dropped no further action being taken.
Sooo.....it was someone trying it on to get his car repaired free...
I suggested to my neighbour.....that he takes the winker to small claims.....to recover costs.....ie lost earnings attending interview and also costs for worry about the nip......
However hes getting nowhere trying to get the name and address of the complainent from the police :(
From this incident and the one youve experienced it seems issue nip and see if the innocent can prove it wrong >:(
Good luck :)
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Fight the nip!
Very similar happened to a neighbour of mine.....whos also a taxi driver.
He got sent a nip for failing to stop after an accident.....he was alledged to have reversed into a parked car.....he was invited for an interview......either his home or police station.....he chose police station.
He turned up and was interviewed.....he was asked serveral questions....recorded!
He denied reversing into the car......and asked why think it was him.....police officer said taxi plate number was taken......police contacted local council and his details were provided.
He was asked by police if he was in this street at the time of alledged offence.....he said he couldnt remember.....they replied yes he was as they had contacted his office who had given details of a pickup in the street at the time.....so he agreed then he must of been.
My neighbour asked how much damage was done.....police officer replied substantial.....so my neighbour...said so my car must be damaged quite a bit as well.....officer replied most likely.
Then my neighbour insisted the officer take a look as his car to see any damage.....and wouldnt proceed with the interview without that happening......might have been a leanent officer but he agreed to suspend the interview and have a look.
This he did.....and commented no damage apparent tho you might have had replacement bumper and respray.....Neighbour said you can get forensic if you like......the paint on the bumper is the same/age as the rest of car.
Result was a week later......he had a letter.....nip dropped no further action being taken.
Sooo.....it was someone trying it on to get his car repaired free...
I suggested to my neighbour.....that he takes the winker to small claims.....to recover costs.....ie lost earnings attending interview and also costs for worry about the nip......
However hes getting nowhere trying to get the name and address of the complainent from the police :(
From this incident and the one youve experienced it seems issue nip and see if the innocent can prove it wrong >:(
Good luck :)
If the complainant is alleging that the taxi caused the damage, then the taxi owner and taxi driver are entitled to have name and address of the complainant as per the Road Traffic Act. Essentally, any allegations of damage needs to go through all parties insurance companies and names and addresses need to be exchanged. The police accident collisions records should pass this information on!!
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i`d like to say thanx to all of you folks for all of the support and advice you have given me over this incident espec you ronnie your comments have made me piss myself with laughter.. you have all shown me that it is not the end of the world and that there alternatives and other avenues to take i will be appealing and i will win because i know i have not done anything wrong ...so thanx to you all :y :y
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Fight the nip!
Very similar happened to a neighbour of mine.....whos also a taxi driver.
He got sent a nip for failing to stop after an accident.....he was alledged to have reversed into a parked car.....he was invited for an interview......either his home or police station.....he chose police station.
He turned up and was interviewed.....he was asked serveral questions....recorded!
He denied reversing into the car......and asked why think it was him.....police officer said taxi plate number was taken......police contacted local council and his details were provided.
He was asked by police if he was in this street at the time of alledged offence.....he said he couldnt remember.....they replied yes he was as they had contacted his office who had given details of a pickup in the street at the time.....so he agreed then he must of been.
My neighbour asked how much damage was done.....police officer replied substantial.....so my neighbour...said so my car must be damaged quite a bit as well.....officer replied most likely.
Then my neighbour insisted the officer take a look as his car to see any damage.....and wouldnt proceed with the interview without that happening......might have been a leanent officer but he agreed to suspend the interview and have a look.
This he did.....and commented no damage apparent tho you might have had replacement bumper and respray.....Neighbour said you can get forensic if you like......the paint on the bumper is the same/age as the rest of car.
Result was a week later......he had a letter.....nip dropped no further action being taken.
Sooo.....it was someone trying it on to get his car repaired free...
I suggested to my neighbour.....that he takes the winker to small claims.....to recover costs.....ie lost earnings attending interview and also costs for worry about the nip......
However hes getting nowhere trying to get the name and address of the complainent from the police :(
From this incident and the one youve experienced it seems issue nip and see if the innocent can prove it wrong >:(
Good luck :)
If the complainant is alleging that the taxi caused the damage, then the taxi owner and taxi driver are entitled to have name and address of the complainant as per the Road Traffic Act. Essentally, any allegations of damage needs to go through all parties insurance companies and names and addresses need to be exchanged. The police accident collisions records should pass this information on!!
At the mo the police wont tell him who the complainent is.....as far as they are concerned they have dropped the matter.....so wont pass on info.....if the complainent wants to pursue it....which i doubt....then i guess he will get the details...but at this mo.....hes asked the police for the details....and they have said...as were not pursuing it...no... :-/