Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: sophos9 on 01 October 2006, 21:29:25
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Hi all, turned the key in the Omego tonight and it did not fire, kept on trying and nothing.
I checked all the fuses (in the cabin and out).... all good!
Pulled the fuel line off (19mm) turned over - no fuel at all
Undone the multiplug on the fuel pump and check for voltage whilst turning over - nothing!!!
Please, someone tell me this is the fuel pump relay.... :-/
If it is, does someone have a part number for a 1997 3.0v6
Thanks loads for your help in advance....
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Done a paperclip test?
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Hi mate....
Must admit, did not. No EMS light at all, used the car this morning - all was good!
Does relay trigger a fault code?
Problem is, car is now some 20 miles away.... :-/
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Don't think relay would trigger a code. But best make sure the ECU is happy, in case of sensor failures, eg crank sensor.
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The car has been perfect until a week or so ago where once or twice, the car took about 2 seconds to start instead of the usual fire as soon as engaged
I'm fairly confident there would not be fault codes, I will check it tomorrow but really need to have the most probable fix with me :-/
How much is a new relay? Is this probable?
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I don't think fuel pump relays are as problematic on Omegas as they were on earlier cars...
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Bah.... :-[
What are the probables...?
Immobiliser
Sensor
ECU
Fuse
Relay
Anything else?
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Immobiliser would cause EML to flash...
Most sensors will allow car to start, just go in to limp. Crank sensor is an exception. There is a fuse for fuel pump - Fuse 19 IIRC...
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Bah.... :-[
What are the probables...?
Immobiliser
Sensor
ECU
Fuse
Relay
Anything else?
Out of fuel? :o Hey, you'd be surprised! ;D
Kev may have some ideas . . . ;)
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EMS light goes off whilst cranking, if crank sensor was borged then surely EMS light would stay on whilst cranking?
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@ theolodian - ;D
It has petrol in it! ::)
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Are the fuel relays the pink ones under the bonnet? Does one switch the fuel pump whilst the other switches the fuel rails?
Are they the same relay and can I get away with buying 1? How much from Vauxhall and do they usually keep them in stock?
Cheers!!
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Ok, found the relays in a picture....
Anyone.. HELP?
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I think the 2 pink relays are identical.
Make sure you go with your paperclip, and some spare fuses, and a meter...
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I think the 2 pink relays are identical.
Make sure you go with your paperclip, and some spare fuses, and a meter...
Hey mate, thanks again for your help.
The relays are the same Part Number: 90494959, the same relays as on the X20XE etc...
Will buy a new relay, already checked all the fuses - all are fine but will take some anyway and will take a paperclip.
I know its a longshot, whats the most likely if not the relay?
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Bah.... :-[
What are the probables...?
Immobiliser
Sensor
ECU
Fuse
Relay
Anything else?
Out of fuel? :o Hey, you'd be surprised! ;D
Kev may have some ideas . . . ;)
I don't think it's what you think i think it is. ::)
Not if the EML is extinguishing while cranking. ;)
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Hi Kev,
Cryptics....
Do you think its the relay?
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Hi Kev,
Cryptics....
Do you think its the relay?
It could be, have you paperclip'd it yet? It would help to know if you had a DTC stored.
Looks like it's not the crank sensor though, you were correct in your previous post, the EML would stay on while cranking if that were the case. Also, as Jaime says, the EML would flash while cranking if it were an immobiliser issue, so that pretty much rules that out too.
Have you had a meter at the fuel pump to check for power there while cranking? ::)
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Thanks for the help.
Yep, had a meter on the pump and no voltage whilst cranking...
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Thanks for the help.
Yep, had a meter on the pump and no voltage whilst cranking...
Next, are you getting power to energise the coil of said fuel pump relay, again, while cranking?
It really is a process of elimination here. Did you get any DTC's from the ECU?
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Checked fuses, all good!
Have not checked EML, car is now stuck like 20 miles away, will check it 2mo,crank will come up anyway... anything else specific it may point towards
Did not check for coil being energised, how would I do that please?
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Have not checked EML, car is now stuck like 20 miles away, will check it 2mo,crank will come up anyway... anything else specific it may point towards
You should check for a DTC, the answer could be right there waiting to be flashed out and will only take seconds to do. ;)
Did not check for coil being energised, how would I do that please?
Again, using your meter. You'll need to withdraw the suspect relay and insert your probes into the connectors which power the coil. There may be a pinout diagram on the relay, i'm not 100%. If not you can open it up to see which pins are required. A half decent meter with a good set of probes is required. Again, this should be checked while cranking. ::)
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Cheers Kev,
Am going over to the car this morning and will test it all out, if the coil is not being energised, what is it likely to be?
Fingers crossed a simple relay sorts it!
Will post up when I know more.... :-[
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One of the relays provides power to the coil, sensors etc.....
Afraid I still suspect crank sensor.....
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Mark, Hi
What I'm gonna do is swop the relay that controls the fuel rail with the fuel pump relay, if fuel comes through then its sorted and I'll buy another relay
How much is a crank sensor and how hard is it to fit?
Cheers mate
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15 minutes to fit and about 40 quid......
The relay swap is worth a try...I am not hopeful though as I have never known one fail yet!
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Mark,you remember my post about an oil leak down that side, you asked if I have changed the heat exchanger.... Don't tell me thats the same side as a crank sensor, right next door to the oil filter....
The oil is running down, its probably boiled it... :'(
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Ok I wont tell you that...but yes....thats where it is ......right next to the oil filter.
What year is it....does it have IR remote or RF?
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I will be amazed if this not the crank sensor personally. :)
As the boss says. 15 minute job and part is £40 ish.
Just remember route new sensor away from engine.
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As I've already hinted, I reckon its crank sensor. It may even possibly start when you get to it, though may let you down at any time.
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When you paperclip it, if you get a 19, it is defo crank sensor. If you get a 31, then its less conclusive.
For those that are interested, if the ECU has a stored 19 (and ECU still considers this 19 to be relevent), this suppresses the 31 you would expect if car is not running...
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Have to disagree there Jaime. :-/
I have always found code 31 = crank sensor issues as this is the code for "no crank sensor signal received (eg break inside cable).
On the other hand I find code 19 if the check is done with just the igntion on. This being the signal for "incorrect crank sensor signal". It signifies that the sensor is returning a signal (albeit not the correct one as the crank is not moving).
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Have to disagree there Jaime. :-/
I have always found code 31 = crank sensor issues as this is the code for "no crank sensor signal received (eg break inside cable).
On the other hand I find code 19 if the check is done with just the igntion on. This being the signal for "incorrect crank sensor signal". It signifies that the sensor is returning a signal (albeit not the correct one as the crank is not moving).
What part do you disagree with? 19 being defo crank sensor failure (as the signal received is incorrect) or the 31 being less conclusive?
The 31 is less conclusive, as if the car is non starter (as is in this case), its not possible to do with engine running...
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19 is not a code I have found to show the sensor has failed.
By its very description it is showing there is a signal being received (albeit an incorrect position) from the sensor.
However 31 is the code produced when no signal is received from the sensor (ie. when it has failed).
So my view is (based on my experience):
19= nothing to worry about. Spurious code given when codes pulled without engine running.
31=Crank sensor problems. Either dead sensor, or sensor on way out.
Basically the opposite view to you. :P
I wonder if the omnipotent one would care to rule on this? ;)
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When my crankcase sensor went, I experienced same symptoms - firing up perfectly one day, then took a couple of attempts the day after, then nothing the following day. One easy way to narrow it down is to try bump or tow starting it. If it fires straight away as mine did, it will almost certainly be the crankcase sensor.
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Any news?
Do you have any stored fault codes for us yet, or have you got the car running? ::)
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19 is not a code I have found to show the sensor has failed.
By its very description it is showing there is a signal being received (albeit an incorrect position) from the sensor.
However 31 is the code produced when no signal is received from the sensor (ie. when it has failed).
So my view is (based on my experience):
19= nothing to worry about. Spurious code given when codes pulled without engine running.
31=Crank sensor problems. Either dead sensor, or sensor on way out.
Basically the opposite view to you. :P
I wonder if the omnipotent one would care to rule on this? ;)
If you get a 19, you definately have a problem - the ECU has received 1 good rotation of engine, but now cannot make sense of the signal.
31 means the ECU has not received a good rotation since ignition on and that there is no stored 19, hence why you should get a 31 on a healthy engine that is not running.
If you get a 19 with engine off, it is because the ECU has a stored 19 code... ...which means the sensor has failed...
A 31 with engine off is normal, as ECU hasn't yet seen rotation of crank, but could feasibly be a failed sensor not giving any signal at all, hence why a 31 is non conclusive on a car that won't start.
Who's correct? Me or LB66? I'm sure someone will start a poll...
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Who's correct? Me or LB66? I'm sure someone will start a poll...
You've certainly put forward a better case, but alas, i've learned my lesson. :-X ;)
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Hey all.... thanks for the help! The car does not start... :-[
So, I check fuse no. 9 - all good, swopped the relays, no petrol out and checked voltage - nothing. Paperclip test revealed a 31 however it would do wouldnt it... ::)
Mark, its a 1997 with RF...?
I have ordered a crank sensor and seal from Autovaux, should be here tomorrow
Now....
Can you guys help with how to change it? What I'm really looking for is what tools will I need, how to change etc etc
Thanks for all the help, hopefully someone can explain how to change it to wrap this thread up :D
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Don't follow original cable route - its flawed.
Replace sensor (torx screwdrive needed, can't remember size)
route wire up near ABS unit (cable tie it) then up to connector at rear of plenum (may need to remove scuttle)...
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So it plugs into a multiplug or summin?
So its pretty simple then....? I can do simple me ;D
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aye, one of the multiplugs at back of plenum...
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Nothing else to look out for then? Not gonna end up with a mouthfull of oil am I
Oh, and is it easier to take the scuttle off or remove the plenum? Had the plenum off a few times but never touched the scuttle....?
NO FLAMING ;D
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Sounds like relay to me, i had a problem last year, where was just cutting out when stopped at junctions, called AA, FOUND NOTHIN, was on hols at the time just done 2k touring scotland, climbing, drinking etc.,, Luckily was in Dundee at the time it happened and not in the sticks of scotland, next to hotel was VX garage, got them tow it back to hotel. Called VX dealer in london on the Monday morning, said it was fuel relay, stuck it into VX dundee, was the fule relay, cost £150 fitted, parts etc.. Still had to drive back to london, so could'nt risk it cutting on the way back.
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removing plenum should be ok.
shouldn't lose any oil.
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Sounds like relay to me, i had a problem last year, where was just cutting out when stopped at junctions, called AA, FOUND NOTHIN, was on hols at the time just done 2k touring scotland, climbing, drinking etc.,, Luckily was in Dundee at the time it happened and not in the sticks of scotland, next to hotel was VX garage, got them tow it back to hotel. Called VX dealer in london on the Monday morning, said it was fuel relay, stuck it into VX dundee, was the fule relay, cost £150 fitted, parts etc.. Still had to drive back to london, so could'nt risk it cutting on the way back.
Dude, relays are £24 and will take about 5 mins to change, are you sure it was not a sensor?
theboy, thanks mate... hopefully will post a happy story tomorrow! :P
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Out of interest.... Do crank sensors fail often? My mego has done 122k and I have no receipts for it ever having a crank sensor change....
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not uncommon...
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not uncommon...
What that they fail often or that 120k is the norm :o
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not uncommon...
What that they fail often or that 120k is the norm :o
That they fail often, or at least, the cable does. ;)
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Sounds like relay to me, i had a problem last year, where was just cutting out when stopped at junctions, called AA, FOUND NOTHIN....
I'm surprised he didn't tell you to change the CamSensor. ;D
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Hey Kev, cheers for that....
Is it the cable or the cable location, gonna take theboys advice and re-route it!
Good job that Autovaux had the parts, Vx dealers wanted £74 ex VAT, cheeky bugga's!
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Hey Kev, cheers for that....
Is it the cable or the cable location, gonna take theboys advice and re-route it!
Good job that Autovaux had the parts, Vx dealers wanted £74 ex VAT, cheeky bugga's!
It's the cable location and where the cable is routed, at the rear of the engine.
Sound advice from Jamie. I re-routed mine when i changed it, there is enough cable on the new sensor to do so. Just make sure you use plenty of cable ties so you're well away from the exhaust manifold and downpipe. You'll be surprised how easy it is. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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£74 + VAT!!
Bl**dy £35 + vat on TC!
Changing the sensor is easy.
It can be done woth both the scuttle and plenum in place (not easy, but much quicker).
The sensor sits next to the oil filter. I can't remember the exact size of the torx bolt.
You will need a screwdriver to prise the sensor out though, they get a bit stuck in there.
The plug is up at the centre back of the plenum behind the multiram (quite well set back).
It is a bit fiddly but quite easy to find. There are only 3 plugs there and one is way too big to be mistaken.
Reach in, unplug the connector (it is a 2 pin job as I recall, but use new one as reference) and plug new one in.
Reroute to passenger side of engine and cable tie against brake pipes.
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Hey laid,
Yep, then told me i dont need the seal as they have never sold them.... erm, OK!
Thanks for the guide, really helps! Will post up 2mo with a happy story :)
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Hey laid,
Yep, then told me i dont need the seal as they have never sold them.... erm, OK!
Thanks for the guide, really helps! Will post up 2mo with a happy story :)
Fingers crossed for you matey. ;)
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It's the cable location and where the cable is routed, at the rear of the engine.
Sound advice from Jamie. I re-routed mine when i changed it, there is enough cable on the new sensor to do so. Just make sure you use plenty of cable ties so you're well away from the exhaust manifold and downpipe. You'll be surprised how easy it is. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
It sounds like I should reroute mine while it still works and the engine is in bits. Is it hard to get the original cable out without cutting the cable?
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Plan of attack for today
- Remove Plenum
- Find multiplug that connects to Crank Sensor
- Remove plug and connect new sensor
- Route new sensor cables down via brake lines and cable tie
- Under car, undo torx bolt remove sensor
- Cut wire and remove
- On top of car, remove cut wire and bin
- Under car, remove evidence of old seal and fit new sensor with new seal
- Tighten torx to 8nm
- Refit plenum
Fingers crossed, turn key and take for a burn.... ;D
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Plan of attack for today
- Remove Plenum
- Find multiplug that connects to Crank Sensor
- Remove plug and connect new sensor
- Route new sensor cables down via brake lines and cable tie
- Under car, undo torx bolt remove sensor
- Cut wire and remove
- On top of car, remove cut wire and bin
- Under car, remove evidence of old seal and fit new sensor with new seal
- Tighten torx to 8nm
- Refit plenum
Fingers crossed, turn key and take for a burn.... ;D
Good Luck Sophos certainly sounds like a good plan of action more involved than the 2.0 to say the least :)
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Its a three pin connector by the way and its key that you get one with the right shape connector (there is a square and rounder one)
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Yes, I remembered it is a 3 pin connector while i was having a shower :-[
I suspect yours will be a round edged connector.
By the way, what seal??
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The original sensors are metal bodied and have an O ring near the flange. Some of the replacement ones are plastic bodied and slightly smaller diameter than the original, they come with a plastic collar which slides on to increase the diameter to the correct size.
I use a bit of black sealant to seal / stick the collar to the body, the collar already has the O ring on it to seal to the block.
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Sounds like relay to me, i had a problem last year, where was just cutting out when stopped at junctions, called AA, FOUND NOTHIN....
I'm surprised he didn't tell you to change the CamSensor. ;D
;D ;D
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Ok, so heres the thing
Removed plenum, no problems... Not one sign of the multiplug anywhere! whats that I see, nearly below the dispack
Off comes the fuel rail to get to it....
Yey!
Hang on a minute, this is not the plug! The connections are different to the one sent by Autovaux
So...
Under the car, give it a yank and yep, its the plug alright!
On the phone to Autovaux... wtf >:(
Autovaux say that there are several different revisions that all go by the same part number... So basically they sent me 'a' sensor and did not tell me that there were several revisions and they really need the number of the current sensor. i understand that if someone rings up with a part number then hey will get what they want but when the part number has several revisions you would have thought they would ask... Anyway, they were supposed to ring me tonight to let me know if they would get one out today or tomorrow but alas, no call. Fingers crossed I get it 2mo or Thur, my car is sitting there with the fuel rail n plenum in the boot... :-[
Not happy now...
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Just spoke to autovaux, the part is coming tomorrow sowill have more news then! :o
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Hey all,
Changed the crank sensor, put it all back together, turned the key and.....
;D
Its all good!
I rerouted the cable down the ABS lines and made sure its well away from the manifold!
Thanks to everyone that helped, well appreciated!! :P
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Good news....top job and for less than a night out!
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Excellent. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Hey all,
Changed the crank sensor, put it all back together, turned the key and.....
;D
Its all good!
I rerouted the cable down the ABS lines and made sure its well away from the manifold!
Thanks to everyone that helped, well appreciated!! :P
Great news, and thanks for the update [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Just a quick update on this.... The car is fine! ::)
My strange missing upon starting and vibey idle are all sorted since I replaced this sensor.... Result! :y
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Just a quick update on this.... The car is fine! ::)
My strange missing upon starting and vibey idle are all sorted since I replaced this sensor.... Result! :y
Excellent Dude. :y
I bet you feel even better knowing you saved a bit by not letting Vx loose on it. ;)
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Hell yea, not just the cash but letting Vx malest my car... no chance!
Do these sensors break down over time then? There is quite a noticable difference (not imaginary ;))
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Hell yea, not just the cash but letting Vx malest my car... no chance!
Do these sensors break down over time then? There is quite a noticable difference (not imaginary ;))
Yeah, after this I am thinking of replacing mine just to be safe. Could do it 3x/yr for less than the cost of RAC.
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The sensors rarely fail.....its the leads that tend to de-grade and hence routing them away from the exhaust and not clipped to a 100degC (sorry Theo, real units are used outside the US) oil pipe makes a big difference.
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Hey all,
Changed the crank sensor, put it all back together, turned the key and.....
;D
Its all good!
I rerouted the cable down the ABS lines and made sure its well away from the manifold!
Thanks to everyone that helped, well appreciated!! :P
Nice one, congrats :)