Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: red on 28 October 2006, 16:57:02
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Hi All,
Firstly thanks for the many replies to prevous posts!
I originally put this at the end of a previous post, but decided it would better to post here instead.
There seems to be an electrical fault but I just can't pin point it, there a few problems and maybe they relate to each other. Now that I have had the car a little longer I will give you what investigative knowledge I have, it aint much!
Firstly the Traction Control light seems to come on quite often when I am driving, which is worry in itself as this means traction control is not working. When this happens the temperature gauge goes right up to the top. Also the idle tick over seems erratic when this happens. This can be a litlle dangerous a junctions as the car tries to send you forward as the revs jump up. But if you stop the car and start it up again chances are everything is back to normal. It is strange indeed!
I noticed the other night that the temperature gauge went right up the top I experimented parked in my drive. I turned off various electrical gadgets such as lights & air conditioning, when these were turned off the gauge came down and when I turned them on the gauge went straight back up.
The temperature gauge does get high without the traction control light coming on but I can't help but think there is some connection between these symptoms.
Can anyone help?
Cheers, Red.
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Hmm a little weird, but my first suggestions would be put a multimeter across the battery when the engine is running and check the voltage. It should be between 13.6v and 14.4v. If it is above or below this then you have a problem with the alternator (probably the regulator).
Next thing to try is get a set of jump leads and clamp the negative lead from the battery terminal to somewhere on the engine block where you can get a good earth.
Try these and let us know what happens.
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When the temp gauge goes up, is the engine actually over-heating, or does it look like a guage fluke?
When the temp gauge goes up, do the electrical fans work? And if they don't, do they start working when the temp goes down?
When the TC light comes-on does the ABS light comes-on as well?
Also, can you measure the voltage across the battery terminals when the engine is running (it should be ~14V).
*** EDIT: Wow laidback, you'r quick....
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;)
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Thanks for that!
The alterator sounds plausable, as when I took this car back to the trader for the crank shaft sensor, the auto electrician had the car wired to his laptop. He was exremely cagey about what he said to me, as I ssuspect the trader told him to say nothing. However, when he was checking the error logs I did read something on the screen that was stating that the battery level was high and low. So what your saying makes a lot of sense.
Even though this car is under warranty, it aint worth sh*t to be honest. I reckon I'll deal with these issues myself by either fixing it myself or taking it to a garage, I have lost all trust in this trader.
Next job is to get to Halfords for a multitester.
Didn't quite understand the second test you mentioned with the jump leads.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks, Red.
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To answer markjay's questions:
When the temp gauge goes up, is the engine actually over-heating, or does it look like a guage fluke?
I'ts hard to say really. Tried squeezing the hosing as I was recommended trying, they were not that hot or that tight, so there doesn't seem to be much pressure buiding and I am not losing water.
When the temp gauge goes up, do the electrical fans work? And if they don't, do they start working when the temp goes down?
When the temp goes up the fans do kick in
When the TC light comes-on does the ABS light comes-on as well?
No the ABS light is not coming on.
Also, can you measure the voltage across the battery terminals when the engine is running (it should be ~14V).
That will be my next job.
Thanks for your help, it is appreciated, Red.
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The second test is to check how good the engine earth is.
The jump lead acts as an additional earth, so if it relieves the problem you know you have a dodgy earth.
I would not bother with warranties, they generally are not worth anything. Do the work yourself, at least that way you know what has been done, and the is a great sense of satisfaction! :)
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Thanks,
Out of interest what is a ball park price for an alternator for my car and where can I buy it from?
Cheers, Red.
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Around £150 for a new one.
However, they can be repaired I gather. Marks DTM can advise on that though.
Do the tests first... :)
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Just to confirm what others have said, it does sound like a regulator fault, so measure the voltage across battery with engine revving at about 2500rpm.
I would do this asap, as if the regulator is chucking out 17 - 18v as I suspect it is, you are running a chance of damaging some of the onboard systems....
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Hi,
Just got my multitester and testing the when it idle the readings are between 11.9 - 12.5 volts which is not the 14 volt mark which as I understand is what it should be.
I will go and test at 2500 revs and let you know.
Cheers, Red.
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At idle, it may be a little low, depending on what other electrical items are switched on...
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Ok,
At 2500rpm the meter read 12.75 so it is still too low even at higher revs.
Does anyone have any pictures detailing where and how to get the alterator off? Also can somebody get me any advice on attempting this?
Don't work in engineering any more but I am reasonably handy with these kind of things.I have a Hayes manual but it doesn't have any pictures of 2.5 engines. I believe that you access it from underneath the car by putting it on axle stands and removing the engine protection plate but I don't know any more than that up to now.
I looked up alternator places in Wigan which where I am based and would you believe it that there is a company called Wigan Alternators.
Oh, I found this link: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=VAU&h_make=VAU&p_model=%20437. If you look at the bottom it describes how crankshaft sensors can also get ruined by irregular voltage from dodgy alternators. I had my crankshaft sensor changed a week or so back, so it seems even this was caused by the same problem.
If you can help please do, thanks, Red.
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That's a very low reading. (Assuming the meter is accurate)
Try this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153772945
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That link look really promising. If in my case it's low voltage then I might get away with just cleaning the connection inside the alternator.
Can I just ask for a quick guide to getting the alternator out of my car? Any pictures on this matter would be great!
Thanks, Red.
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Never taken one off, so don't know. But I'm sure your Haynes should explain how, even if it doesn't show pictures...
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(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4686/engineda4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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...and NO, it's not my car and I didn't take my engine out just to show you where the alternator is... in this site people go out of their way to help other Omega owners, but there is a limit to everything you know... ;D
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...and NO, it's not my car and I didn't take my engine out just to show you where the alternator is... in this site people go out of their way to help other Omega owners, but there is a limit to everything you know... ;D
Was just gonna ask that.... ;)
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.......
I looked up alternator places in Wigan which where I am based and would you believe it that there is a company called Wigan Alternators.
.......
Strange. ;)
Do you know there's also Salford Van Hire in Salford and by strange coincidence we, in Bury have a Bury Motors? ;)
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@ Andy B, used to love seeing this sign on the M61 http://www.buryblackpuddings.co.uk/
It's my Birthday tomorrow and your help and been an early present, I feel a lot happier now than when I started this thread.
Cheers and I will keep you posted on my progress.
Ta, Red.
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Hi All,
Can I just ask when I remove the battery to do this will I need any codes for anything when I reconnect it again? Such as the factory fitted radio etc.
Cheers, Red.
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...and NO, it's not my car and I didn't take my engine out just to show you where the alternator is... in this site people go out of their way to help other Omega owners, but there is a limit to everything you know... ;D
;D ;D ;D
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Hi All,
Can I just ask when I remove the battery to do this will I need any codes for anything when I reconnect it again? Such as the factory fitted radio etc.
Cheers, Red.
Yes, radio, CD changer (if seperate). You will also need to reset electric windows and sunroof...
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@ Andy B, used to love seeing this sign on the M61 http://www.buryblackpuddings.co.uk/
It's my Birthday tomorrow and your help and been an early present, I feel a lot happier now than when I started this thread.
Cheers and I will keep you posted on my progress.
Ta, Red.
Mmmmm black puddings! ;) best to think what they're made from when you're eating 'em! :-?
Happy Birthday!
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Hi All,
Just took the alternator off, but it doesn't look quite the same as the one shown in this thread: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153772945
I cannot see any contacts on mine to clean.
I have some pictures I have taken but appears I don't have permission to attach them in this forum I will ask in the meantime and hopefully follow up with the pictures later.
If after looking at the pictures you can advise any course of action I can do this before I put the alternator back again. I wouldn't want to take this out any more times than is necessay.
Thanks, Red.
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Host the pictures somewhere else (eg www.photobucket.com) and link to them - we currently do not have the bandwidth of space to host pictures here...
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Hi,
Here they are:
(http://bigred.me.uk/both.jpg)
(http://bigred.me.uk/main.jpg)
(http://bigred.me.uk/sub.jpg)
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Hi,
I have put the alternator back now.
Given the information in the post how sure can I be that this fault is being caused by the alternator?
I am only asking this because I dont want to get a reconditioned alternator only to find that is was something else.
If I can be fairly sure it is the alternator In will change it next weekend, if however I cannot be that sure I reckon it would be more cost effective to ask a mechanic to look at it first.
Cheers, Red.
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Hi Red dunno if this maybe a cheap alternative http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vauxhall-Omega-V6-2-5-1994-2001-Alternator_W0QQitemZ280043683572QQihZ018QQcategoryZ10404QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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If you're multimeter is accurate, the voltages you measured are suspiciously low.
This is either because there is an alternator fault, a battery problem or a wiring fault.
Check the main cables to the alternator, battery and chassis are clean and tight. Clean and re-make the connections.
What is the voltage across the battery with the engine off? Get the battery discharge tested.
If all is well in the engine bay, the next step will be to check the equipment inside.
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In order of likelihood...
Bad earth (as I suggested before, use a jump lead from negative terminal to good part of the engine to check).
Alternator (as already discussed).
Battery. Possible, but it should not affect charge going into battery.
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Hi,
I have just done the jump lead test and does appear that the car seems to have a bad earth.
At tick over the voltage reading is normally around 12.5 volts and at 2,500 revs just under 13 volts.
With the jump lead at tick over just over 13 volts and at 2,500 revs approximately just over 13.5 volts.
So it is still a little lower than the 14.4 volts that laidback66 recommended. Could it be a combination of a dodgy alternator and a bad earth? What I was going to do at the weekend is go to Wigan Alternators and ask them to test it before I went ahead and bought it!
Thing is I have not got a clue as to how I am going to find the faulty connection and then fix it.
Please help, Red.
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There are some earth connections on the back of one of the banks of cylinders, but not entirely sure where. Someone will be along shortly to give you a clue...
Also, make sure battery terminals are clean...
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Ok, 13.5v at 2,500rpm is good enough. The jump lead is not the best earth so it will read a little less.
The main earths are from the alternator to the chasis and from the battery to the chasis (I know I am forgetting one!!).
Undo these. use a wire brush or similar and clean both the contacts and the earthing points thoroughly (ie bare metal!).
Check the state of the cables. If they don't look good, replace them, they are not expensive at all.
Also clean the securing bolts and make sure it is completely tight. Finally protect with some petroleum jelly.
Go to an alternator place and they'll try to sell you an alternator! ;)
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Ok, 13.5v at 2,500rpm is good enough. The jump lead is not the best earth so it will read a little less.
The main earths are from the alternator to the chasis and from the battery to the chasis (I know I am forgetting one!!).
Undo these. use a wire brush or similar and clean both the contacts and the earthing points thoroughly (ie bare metal!).
Check the state of the cables. If they don't look good, replace them, they are not expensive at all.
Also clean the securing bolts and make sure it is completely tight. Finally protect with some petroleum jelly.
Go to an alternator place and they'll try to sell you an alternator! ;)
I would agree if you go to alternator place, they may try to sell you replacement rather than really find problem...
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Many thanks for everyone who has helped with this issue!
I will take laidback66's advice and check the main earths at the weekend and hopefully have some good news to give you.
Cheers, Red.
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There is no 0V (I dont use the phrase 'earth' on cars as its not actulay correct) connection to the alternator directly.
The main 0V connection for the engine goes from battery 0V (-) connection to a large bolt between the power steering and aircon pulleys.
Also worth considering popping the alternator off and reading the following maintenance guide:
Repairing The Alternator (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153772945)
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Hi Mark,
Will check the connection for the engine. With regards to the alternator I found your tutorial over the weekend but my alternator is different in that the contacts on the alternator you illustrated are not the same as mine. I posted the images here:http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1162051038/15
Cheers, Red.
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Hi All,
Good news, the voltage witch is dead! I hope f*ckin hope.
This didn't go quite the the way I had planned, but what does.
I had hoped to get to the weekend and then I would fix the bad earths myself.
Unfortunatley going back to work yesterday lunch time my car came to a hault in a totally undignified way. The car cut out in the middle of the works car park blocking alot of cars in, as Omega's are not the smallest car.
Anyway I had no choice but to go to my boss and explain that I needed to get the car home.
So luckily for me my partner Maria was off work yesterday, so I rang her and asked her to come and jump start my car. So we got the car home. Even though I was certain what the problem was I did not have the time to fix it. So I asked Maria to take it to a auto electrician today and not suprisingly there were bad earths in the car which they fixed. Costing around £50 I am happy. It is a shame I couldn't do it myself but that's life.
Cheers for your help and I learned a lot from this, next time I while get to do the job myself.
Thanks, Red.
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Hey, good to hear it is all sorted, and for much less than a replacement alternator! ;)
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Just been out in the car. Like a dream!
Traction control light doesn't come on & temp gauge is as it should be.
Now I can just enjoy driving the nicest car on the road.
Thanks once again to everyone, this is the place, Red