Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 11 November 2006, 15:20:58
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Project 1, now rebuilt, but won't start.
All electrical connectors are home etc, and the earth's are secure. It turns over ok, and feels like there's very good compression. However, after a spell of turning it over, especially with foot on throttle, we get a loud hiss/backfire through the intake.
Removed a spark plug, earthed it and turned the engine over, and there does not appear to be a spark.
Have checked and are confident of the following:
Spark plug leads are in correct order. (copying the pattern of another 2.0 - do they differ?)
Camshaft timing is correct.
Engine earth there.
Fuel IS being delivered to the injector rail.
I reckon the lack of apparent spark could be a culprit!
Can anyone throw in any suggestions please of things to check?
Cheers
J
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PS I have read the fault codes, but dno't suppose they are accurate since it's not actually ran. The only code, apart from 12, is code 19 - but I guess I would get this without the engine running.
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Hi James, the lack of spark certainly sounds like the likely culprit. When I transplanted my 2ltr engine, it too took a while to start. On hind sight, I should have bled the air out of the injector rail. Might be worth trying this as well.
Cheers Jim
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testing with a multimeter has just confirmed that there is a good engine earth, and there is 12 volts going into the DIS pack when the ignition is turned on.
Still no spark though and backfires. Thoughts?
:(
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Also - could this be an immobiliser issue? Its been stood for ages without a battery on, and I've not operated the central locking since trying to start it - would an immobiliser issue cause it to have no spark?!
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testing with a multimeter has just confirmed that there is a good engine earth, and there is 12 volts going into the DIS pack when the ignition is turned on.
Still no spark though and backfires. Thoughts?
:(
If its backfiring then i would have thought it is sparking...but at the wrong time...definately sure plugs leads are in correct order?
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I've copied exactly the plug leads off another 2.0 of the same year, unless they changed the locations of which leads go where on ths DIS, then I know it's right...
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testing with a multimeter has just confirmed that there is a good engine earth, and there is 12 volts going into the DIS pack when the ignition is turned on.
Still no spark though and backfires. Thoughts?
:(
If its backfiring then i would have thought it is sparking...but at the wrong time...definately sure plugs leads are in correct order?
Just had a look at code 19......it implies cranksensor fault ......31 is also cranksensor fault but implies you get 31 with engine not running
So going by that I would check the crank sensor and wiring......coz that will stop it from starting
hth
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Yup...check the crank sensor, it will stop the ignition firing (you still get 12V at the DIS becuase its a neg pulse to spark) and the fuel injectors firing to.....
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that's strange, because the crank sensor was working in the donor engine before the transplant.. I have double checked that the connector is fully home and it's made no difference.
I am now doubting myself about the no-spark issue. I tried turning it over again with my foot on the gas - and it backfired so badly that it blew the airbox off and damaged the header tank! Would it have done that, without a spark? Is anyone able to confirm where I should have the HT leads?
I'm so near, yet so bloody far :(
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Ignition timing is wrong then, its sparking when the inlet valve is open......check the leads etc.
There should be numbers on the DIS pack and remember that number one cylinder is at the cambelt end...
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Right, thanks Mark
Mark, tell me - I've just been researching, and the timing order is 1342?
Does that mean I connect the lead from no 1 on the dis pack at the timing belt end, and then a lead from no 2 on the dispack to the one at the back of the engine?
Could you explain in fools terms, where on the plugs my leads need to go depending on what number is on the dispack?
Cheers
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Or anyone? I wanna go try it and see if it starts :(
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Or anyone? I wanna go try it and see if it starts :(
Sorry mate.....i dont know .... but theres only 16 possible combinations ;D
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You bugger :D
All I wanna know is where my plug leads go :(
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Right, thanks Mark
Mark, tell me - I've just been researching, and the timing order is 1342?
Does that mean I connect the lead from no 1 on the dis pack at the timing belt end, and then a lead from no 2 on the dispack to the one at the back of the engine?
Could you explain in fools terms, where on the plugs my leads need to go depending on what number is on the dispack?
Cheers
I would have thought that 1 goes to plug 1 at the timing belt end, 2 goes to the next one behind it and so forth with 4 being at the baulkhead end.
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Sorry mate couldnt resist ;D
Ummm Mark seems to be offline now.....LB's on he might be able to help....or i see MarkJay is on....he might be able to post a pic for you :y
And im off now....hope you get it sorted mate :y
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I imagine 1 goes to front cylinder, 2 goes to next one back, then 3, then 4 at back...
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Ok, had a skinfull last night because I was pss'd off with this, but looking at it with a (semi!) fresh head this morning, I'm going down to the project car to look at it logically as to why it won't start. :)
I've written down a list that may help me:
Symptoms
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Won't start after rebuild
Backfires like a beast - through the inlet :(
Possibly no spark (but hard to believe based on the above)
What we know
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12 volts at DIS pack
Fault code 19 exists, (even though it's never been fired up)
There is definately fuel at the injector rail
The engine earth is good.
What I'm checking today
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1) Order of HT leads
2) Cam sprokets are in the correct keyways, and valve timing is correct
3) Try spare crank sensor
4) Check body earth
5) Try the spare ECU?
7) Double check there is a spark using a timing gun and seeing if it flashes
8) Check all sensors are plugged in and all connectors are in the right place and fully home.
If this doesn't work?
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Tow to remote location, pour petrol inside, throw match and leg it!
No - seriously, if anyone's got any logical additions to the above that may help in getting this sorted, I'd be really grateful to hear them.
Cheers!
James
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Do you still have original crank sensor from your original engine to try, my thinking:
19 is a cranksensor 'incorrect signal' so ECU is getting signal, but is ruling out as invalid/not usable. Could be all the work you've done has stressed its cable, hence it perhaps giving intermittent signal, thus intermittent firing. Not sure why seems to be firing in inlet though.
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Yup, I've still got a spare, and it's on my list of things to try.
I would imagne that, there is only one thing that would cause an inlet backfire, and that would be if a cylinder is trying to spark when it's inlet valve is open!
This could be only two things really - plugs firing at the wrong times (HT lead mixup) - OR valve timing not right, eg, if both cam sprockets were set in the inlet keyway etc, all the valves would be going up and down at the same time!
I'll post up my findings later
:D
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Cylinders are numbered 1 through 4 starting at the cam belt end through to the flywheel and.
The leads must connect the corresponding cylinder to the coil on the DIS pack.
If the cam sprockets were wrong then you would get some VERY interesting effects!
Still sound like in-correct spark lead fitting.
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Well, checked the leads, and they seemed to be corresponding to the right plugs according to my spare DIS pack. However, just to be sure I removed the DIS from the car, took off all the leads, and started from scratch refitting them.
Turned the key.... VROOM!!
It runs. But I'm sure the leads were right first time. But they can't have been!
Grrrr
Thanks mark, I owe you one.
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Well, checked the leads, and they seemed to be corresponding to the right plugs according to my spare DIS pack. However, just to be sure I removed the DIS from the car, took off all the leads, and started from scratch refitting them.
Turned the key.... VROOM!!
It runs. But I'm sure the leads were right first time. But they can't have been!
Grrrr
Thanks mark, I owe you one.
:D
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Well, checked the leads, and they seemed to be corresponding to the right plugs according to my spare DIS pack. However, just to be sure I removed the DIS from the car, took off all the leads, and started from scratch refitting them.
Turned the key.... VROOM!!
It runs. But I'm sure the leads were right first time. But they can't have been!
Grrrr
Thanks mark, I owe you one.
Glad you got it sorted :y
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Turned the key.... VROOM!!
If that was a V6 it would have gone VROOM VROOM :D Glad you got it sorted though :y
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well now, I need to fit the other header tank (backfire split the existing one), and clean out the big breather tube, and fir the exhaust properly, because it's not connected from the cat back yet
It goes though, I'm a lot happier!
With it running, I also tested that I'd engaged the engine and box properly, and it selects gears, moves backwards and forwards, so all must be well on that scale!
As long as it doesn't rain tomorrow, then it should be project 1 sucesfully completed!!
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Well done James, you got there in the end :y
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Good news.
So was I close to getting the cause right ::) :y
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Was i close too ;D
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1163258458;start=#5
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Indeed you were
Seriously though, I never realised how much of a shock you can get testing for a spark. Literally all up my arm and across my chest, it was like a shock off the mains!
I won't be using that old famous method for testing a spark again :S
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Glad you got it sorted. This same thing happened to me years ago. I had no markings to tell which lead went to which cylinder though!
I believe that you do get quite a "belt" from modern ignition systems. The voltage of the spark is far greater than the old distributor systems.
Hope the weather holds up for you today to get the rest sorted.
Good Luck
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As a warning, watch messing with the leads removed as it can goose the DIS pack (the spark voltage is lower but, the current is much higher as the energy is constant) plus, the voltage is in excess of 45KV! (much lower in air)
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glad its sorted maybe just a loose lead its dark down there in land of dis packs :y