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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 19:18:50

Title: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 19:18:50
Well following on from the terrible idle, and then subsequently the TC light coming on, and the car going into limp mode I decided to take the car to my local Vauxhall dealer (A A Clarke) to see what they suggested.

Jamie had read fault codes for cylinder misfires on cylinders 2, 4 and 6 which pointed at a problem somewhere on bank 2.

A A Clarke diagnosed a faulty coil pack on bank 1. I pointed out what we had previously seen and he insisted that bank 1 was at fault. I asked him how confident he was that it would fix the problem and he said "extremely confident!"

Next day and the part arrives, and surprise surprise the part made no difference. The new diagnosis is that the Cat is blocked on the bank 2 side. At this stage I decided to get the car home cos they were clearly guessing at my expense.

A A Clarke towed the car to my house because it now wouldn't even run. (It does start but dies immediately)

These are the notes from the service sheet.

Carried out Tech2 test for poor running and found EML light n/w. Removed dash assembly and replaced bulb. Reset all learned values and upgraded ECU. Carried out data list checks and found alternator charging at 12.9V. Re-started vehicle from cold and found vehicle misfiring with trouble codes relating to coil pack bank 1.

Fitted new coil pack but vehicle still the same. Multiple misfires detected. Re-checked and found near side Catalytic Converter bloked and possible faul with off side too.


Any advice on where to start would be hugely appreciated.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 09 November 2006, 19:33:13
Well i would change the plugs....if you havent already done so....as its the cheap option....then change the coil pack on bank2.....i assume that 2,4,6 are bank 2....i would believe Jaime...than the vx dealer....but just suprised they went for bank1.....oh thinking about it no im not!!

I personally, would refuse to pay for the part and insist they put the old one back in as it made no difference .......vx dealers  >:(
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 09 November 2006, 19:42:33
Quote
Well i would change the plugs....if you havent already done so....as its the cheap option....then change the coil pack on bank2.....i assume that 2,4,6 are bank 2....i would believe Jaime...than the vx dealer....but just suprised they went for bank1.....oh thinking about it no im not!!

I personally, would refuse to pay for the part and insist they put the old one back in as it made no difference .......vx dealers  >:(

Dont suppose the coil packs are swapable are they? to see if fault swaps to other bank?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 19:46:19
I did wonder that myself, but apparently they are different.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 09 November 2006, 19:52:47
They are different.

Just check that plugs wells passenger side aren't full of oil as a starter...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 09 November 2006, 19:54:28
Quote
I did wonder that myself, but apparently they are different.

I was unsure....coz i looked in my book and it lists 2.5/3.0 as the same.....but they will have dis pack, not coil pack......2.6 it lists as 2,4,6 coil pack....no mention of 1,3,5 .....so you can get the 2,4,6 bank on TC card but not the 1,3,5 one....work that one out!  :-/

I'd still go for the coil pack......tho others may have another idea  :y
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 20:03:08
Lol, my dealer says Coil Pack 2 isn't a TC item!
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 09 November 2006, 20:46:35
Quote
Lol, my dealer says Coil Pack 2 isn't a TC item!
Your dealer is full of shit  >:(


2.6/3.2 (cylinders 1, 3, 5)  9118114 £93.33 £84.00 £70.00

  
2.6/3.2 (cyl. 2, 4, 6) 9118115 £93.33 £84.00 £70.00
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 09 November 2006, 21:18:27
Well we know that!


If it was me I would complain to the dealer principle and if no joy telephone Vaux customer service in Luton. Demand a refund for the coil pack fitted or a free one for cylinders 2,4,6.

Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 21:21:47
I haven't paid for the coil pack for bank 1, and they have removed it and put the original one back in.

All i've paid for is a bulb at one pound something and an hour and a half labour for tech 2 diagnostics and fitting the bulb.

I will get up early tomorrow morning and attempt to get the plugs out and give the wells a clean out. If they are full of oil, what is the best way to clean them up? Just soaking up with some kitchen towel or something?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 09 November 2006, 21:24:08
Quote
I haven't paid for the coil pack for bank 1, and they have removed it and put the original one back in.

All i've paid for is a bulb at one pound something and an hour and a half labour for tech 2 diagnostics and fitting the bulb.

I will get up early tomorrow morning and attempt to get the plugs out and give the wells a clean out. If they are full of oil, what is the best way to clean them up? Just soaking up with some kitchen towel or something?
If they are full of oil, your cam gaskets have gone and need replacing (and breathers cleaning).  I only asked about the plug wells as trying to think what can cause misfires on that bank...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 09 November 2006, 21:27:30
Its not unknown for the coil pack to go......is the ECU light still on?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 09 November 2006, 21:37:13
Mark - is there a way of measuring coil pack resistance etc to see if problematic. I know their AC and DC characteristics are ver, very different though...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 09 November 2006, 21:40:26
Primary....possibly (ECU would spot this fault though)....secondary, I suspect not as we think they have air gaps in them.

You usualy use a set of test plugs and fire the coils via tech 2 to check them
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 09 November 2006, 21:52:52
Quote
Its not unknown for the coil pack to go......is the ECU light still on?

When i turn the ignition on the ECU light stays on, as does the one with the pic of an engine on it.

I just started the car and floored the accelerator and it revved for about a second but very quickly died again. When it dies it almost sounds like its being suffocated, and the smell outside the car is really nasty.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 09 November 2006, 22:50:47
Quote
Quote
Its not unknown for the coil pack to go......is the ECU light still on?

When i turn the ignition on the ECU light stays on, as does the one with the pic of an engine on it.

I just started the car and floored the accelerator and it revved for about a second but very quickly died again. When it dies it almost sounds like its being suffocated, and the smell outside the car is really nasty.
Sounds like the exhaust is blocked.  The intake could do the same, except for the smell.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 10 November 2006, 09:13:00
So my trusty Vx dealer could be right this time about the blocked Cats then? :(
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Admin on 10 November 2006, 09:15:46
Not convinced by the exhaust...yet.

The awful smell will down to unburnt fuel going through the system. If the 2,4,6 bank is not firing you will have the symptoms you have described. You will also have a very dead cat very soon if you try and continue to run it.

Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 10 November 2006, 09:18:42
Oh i see. Now you say it like that it suddenly makes sense... I will have that coil pack changed this weekend and see what happens.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 10 November 2006, 09:24:24
Quote
So my trusty Vx dealer could be right this time about the blocked Cats then? :(
Could be.  I don't think that it would start and then quickly suffocate if it was just the coil pack.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 10 November 2006, 09:59:57
But its the less expensive place to start so I have to give it a go. (£70 + VAT on TC.)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 10 November 2006, 10:11:30
Quote
But its the less expensive place to start so I have to give it a go. (£70 + VAT on TC.)
Even if cat is fubar, pointless changing until misfire on 2,4,6 sorted, else it will happen again...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 10 November 2006, 11:23:28
If the cat is blocked AND the coil pack is faulty, would I get the same symptoms after changing the coil pack?

My ODB2 code reader arrived today so when I get home i will be able to get the latest set of fault codes from the system.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 10 November 2006, 20:48:15
Quote
Primary....possibly (ECU would spot this fault though)....secondary, I suspect not as we think they have air gaps in them.

You usualy use a set of test plugs and fire the coils via tech 2 to check them

If its of any help.....I have a vectra outside that wont start.......reason is i have its duff coil pack inside and also a brand new one inside waiting for me to fit it....i have a trusty fluke77.....so any measurements i can take to help??? or see if one is different from the other.....i did have little play earlier but wasnt sure if meter needed to be set on diode switching mode....not sure whats in coil packs....apart from obviously coils!  ;D

Wasnt sure on primary side which was 0v so wasnt sure what i was measuring

I know the coil packs are different to omega ones.....but coil packs must be coil packs....if you see what i mean.....so if anyone thinks it will be helpful and can tell me what to measure.....then just shout and i'll be happy to...


Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 11 November 2006, 08:53:15
Quote
i have a trusty fluke77

Ah yes, the over rated multimeter the industry uses....;) (poor accuracy, pricey calibration and mega expensive to buy)

Not realy any measurements that can be taken as the secondary side as said seems to have an air gap so it juts reads open circuit all the time.

What the dealer should have done is connect test plugs to the coilpack outputs and fired each one via tech2 fbefore changing it......but that would require an ounce of common sense!
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Markjay on 11 November 2006, 14:04:34
Quote
I haven't paid for the coil pack for bank 1, and they have removed it and put the original one back in.

All i've paid for is a bulb at one pound something and an hour and a half labour for tech 2 diagnostics and fitting the bulb.

I will get up early tomorrow morning and attempt to get the plugs out and give the wells a clean out. If they are full of oil, what is the best way to clean them up? Just soaking up with some kitchen towel or something?

On the 2.6/3.2, the coil packs sit directly on top of the plugs and actually seals the plug wells, so oil in the plug wells is not very common on these engines - unlike with the 2.5/3.0.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Markjay on 11 November 2006, 14:09:44
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8200/image010ft6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 11 November 2006, 14:46:58
Quote
Quote
i have a trusty fluke77

Ah yes, the over rated multimeter the industry uses....;) (poor accuracy, pricey calibration and mega expensive to buy)

Not realy any measurements that can be taken as the secondary side as said seems to have an air gap so it juts reads open circuit all the time.

What the dealer should have done is connect test plugs to the coilpack outputs and fired each one via tech2 fbefore changing it......but that would require an ounce of common sense!

Mine was free  ;D i did have a fluke87, that was free too  ;D, but dunno what ive done with it  ::)

Anyway i did have a bit of a play.....think i discovered which pin was 0v on the primary side.
On both coil packs the readings on all coils were either 0.7 or 0.8 ohm.

Now this is where i got a bit lost......if you could measure the secondary coils.....shove one end the meter probe inside the rubber shroud so it hits the spring where does the other end of the meter go???
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 15:05:01
Ok guys, I have an update...

Replaced all 6 plugs and coil pack 2. (Thanks markjay for your how2 on the "other site"  :-[ )

The news though isn't good. Started the car and it tried to stall straight away although this time it is trying to fight it and idles badly for a while before giving up the fight.

I have been unable to get my new USB ODBC cheapy tech2 thing working so i don't know what fault codes are on there.

Any suggestions on what to do next?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 11 November 2006, 15:16:19
Quote
Ok guys, I have an update...

Replaced all 6 plugs and coil pack 2. (Thanks markjay for your how2 on the "other site"  :-[ )

The news though isn't good. Started the car and it tried to stall straight away although this time it is trying to fight it and idles badly for a while before giving up the fight.

I have been unable to get my new USB ODBC cheapy tech2 thing working so i don't know what fault codes are on there.

Any suggestions on what to do next?

 :(

So if you rev it does it die faster than if you just let it idle?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 16:41:50
Well its not really fair to say it ever idles, if i don't touch the accelerator it will stutter badly for about 5 seconds then give up.

If i rev it, it will respond and sounds not too bad but then dies straight away.

So, probably yes.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 11 November 2006, 17:01:50
Hmmm....i dont know what others think.....but i think it maybe blocked exhaust then....just thinking by revving it the pressure will build up faster.....and hence why it cuts out sooner

Thats my theory.....what do others reckon?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 17:41:48
Does anyone else have any other suggestions before i splash out on a cat?

I haven't been able to find a used one (although i've only tried Lea Valley). There don't seem to be as many around as for 2.5 / 3.0.

I have found this place selling them new, but I wonder if they will actually be any good??

http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/cat_display.php?txtmodel=OMEGA&Submit=Next&txtmake=VAUXHALL
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: rpont on 11 November 2006, 18:00:55
What blocks cats? I'm just wondering if the problem with the coil pack has somehow caused the cat to get blocked and whether getting the cat up to operating temp will clear the blockage.

I suppose the only way to be certain it is a blocked cat is to remove it and see if the engine runs for longer or still dies after a few seconds.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 11 November 2006, 18:11:00
Take it off and blow through it........might sound daft but, fairly easy to do....
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: mar892ree on 11 November 2006, 18:13:26
Hi Rock, i brought one for my 2.2, it fitted really well, and hasnt gone rusty yet ( 8 months )

Mind you the decission was quite easy, £100 odd quid for one from these guys or approx £700 ( or something REALLY silly ) from VX !!!


Mark
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 11 November 2006, 18:16:30
Quote
What blocks cats? I'm just wondering if the problem with the coil pack has somehow caused the cat to get blocked and whether getting the cat up to operating temp will clear the blockage.

I suppose the only way to be certain it is a blocked cat is to remove it and see if the engine runs for longer or still dies after a few seconds.

I think cats just fall apart inside.......they are like a honeycomb type structure.

I was wondering too....if it would be possible to romove the cat and try it again.....be rather noisey but engine should keep going.....prob not run right coz no back pressure......or maybe just replace the cat with straight thro' pipe if poss, to test.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Markjay on 11 November 2006, 18:45:50
If I understand correctly, the car is now a non-runner while before hand it was just about driveable. So I would look at what Vx actually did to it – are you sure they put back your own bank 1 coil pack? Or could they have just given you any ole’ coil pack they had lying around….? And did you check the coil pack connection while you were changing the plugs?

As for cat, it may be blocked, but how did Vx arrive at this conclusion – what did they do to check this?

I think you really need to get the code reader working asap…


Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 18:57:37
Has anyone written a How2 on removing Cats on a V6 yet by any chance?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: EddieX on 11 November 2006, 20:20:30
My Merc. had it's cat. innards come loose and partly block the exhaust, but it would still drive up to 60 MPH...................eventually. On the other hand my Manta had a tankfull of dirty petrol once which blocked the fuel filter and gave symptoms very much like Rock's car has.  
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 20:29:10
Just a thought...

About 3 weeks before i started getting problems i switched over to only using Shell's V Power Petrol. Is it possible that might have changed something?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: EddieX on 11 November 2006, 20:40:21
The Shell petrol probably has more detergent in it so it might have disloged some dirt, but I don't  think it's the most likely cause of your problem.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 21:00:25
Well if i can work out how to do it, i'm going to take the catalytic converter off and blow through it to see what happens. If it is blocked, i assume there is no fixing them so i will try smashing a way through it and re-fitting it to see if the problem goes away...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: EddieX on 11 November 2006, 21:24:35
With the Merc. I uncoupled the exhaust from behind the cat. and had a poke around with a steel bar. I could feel that the matrix was loose so I used a hammer, drift and other implements of destruction to break up and remove the offending part. It was very theraputic  ;D.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 23:12:32
Well i'm in need of some therapy so it could be fun.... :)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 11 November 2006, 23:32:17
OOh, 100 posts!!
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 12 November 2006, 09:40:29
All done from under neath and pretty easy, might well do a maintenance guide shortly as I need to to replace the lambda sensor on my estate (its stuck so needs the front pipe removing to gain extra access).

Two bolts from the centre section to the cat (note, these can sheer so get new bolts, its worth grinding the protruding thread off and applying some penetrating to aid removal).

Two nuts at the front pipe to manifold join.

And a single bolt securing it to the gearbox mount plate.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 12 November 2006, 14:57:50
This will probably seem like a daft question (but at least its in keeping with most of my previous posts!).

What would be the best way to raise the front of the car? Use of a trolley jack and then axle stands? Ramps? (although the front of the car looks too low to get it up on to ramps).

If so, what capacity trolley jack and axle stands do i need to get?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 12 November 2006, 15:02:33
yes, trolley jack and axle stands...   ...2 tonne minumum.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 12 November 2006, 15:28:47
Jamie,

Just as a note...

When i took the old plugs out, 5 of the 6 plugs were definitely dry. (Although the ends were very black)

The plug in cylinder 4 though did have some oil on the thread. Should this be cause for concern?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 12 November 2006, 15:35:28
Quote
Jamie,

Just as a note...

When i took the old plugs out, 5 of the 6 plugs were definitely dry. (Although the ends were very black)

The plug in cylinder 4 though did have some oil on the thread. Should this be cause for concern?
Oil on the thread probably means a small puddle in the well from the cam cover gasket leaking.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 12 November 2006, 15:37:36
Quote
Jamie,

Just as a note...

When i took the old plugs out, 5 of the 6 plugs were definitely dry. (Although the ends were very black)

The plug in cylinder 4 though did have some oil on the thread. Should this be cause for concern?
If the plug well had started to fill up with oil, that may have helped the coil pack to fail.  Any sign that that side coil pack had been removed by dealer?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 12 November 2006, 16:15:19
That side coil pack had DEFINITELY not been removed by the dealer. The bank 1 side came out fairly easily, the passenger side took ALOT of effort.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 12 November 2006, 16:30:49
how much oil are we talking?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 12 November 2006, 17:27:32
It wasn't loads. It was only really when i noticed the stripy lines it left on my fingers that i realised there was oil on it.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Markjay on 12 November 2006, 18:22:23
Quote
Quote
Jamie,

Just as a note...

When i took the old plugs out, 5 of the 6 plugs were definitely dry. (Although the ends were very black)

The plug in cylinder 4 though did have some oil on the thread. Should this be cause for concern?
Oil on the thread probably means a small puddle in the well from the cam cover gasket leaking.


..or it could come from the combustion chamber, which would be very bad news...

If you look at the coil pack, you will see it has a rubber seal all around - this will have to be broken for oil to go down the plug wells.




Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 12 November 2006, 18:47:30
It is MUCH more likely to be fuel in the bore has mixed with a bit of carbon on the piston crowns and wicked up the spark plug thread, remember that the gas tight seal on a spark plug is the washer that mates on the outside of the head.

Nicely points towards the failing coil pack though.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 13 November 2006, 10:28:31
Quote
Quote
Quote
Jamie,

Just as a note...

When i took the old plugs out, 5 of the 6 plugs were definitely dry. (Although the ends were very black)

The plug in cylinder 4 though did have some oil on the thread. Should this be cause for concern?
Oil on the thread probably means a small puddle in the well from the cam cover gasket leaking.


..or it could come from the combustion chamber, which would be very bad news...

If you look at the coil pack, you will see it has a rubber seal all around - this will have to be broken for oil to go down the plug wells.

OK, I guess I need to see one of the DBW engines.  I don't understand why people talk about two separate coil packs, one for each side, and then also talk like it is an individual coil-on-plug setup.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 November 2006, 10:33:36
Fairly simple, each plug has a coil (unlike the DIS system where one coil drives two plugs) and the coils are housed in a coil pack (3 for a v6 two off, one per bank and 4 in a 2.2)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 13 November 2006, 11:12:34
Quote
Fairly simple, each plug has a coil (unlike the DIS system where one coil drives two plugs) and the coils are housed in a coil pack (3 for a v6 two off, one per bank and 4 in a 2.2)
I get it, it functions like an individual coil-on-plug setup, but they decided to use more plastic and join them into one block.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 November 2006, 11:20:25
Yep.....makes assembly and wiring much simpler
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 13 November 2006, 11:44:26
Quote
Yep.....makes assembly and wiring much simpler
Only slightly.  Tradeoffs are more complicated/expensive parts and repair.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 13 November 2006, 12:04:52
Easier to repair to.....when one coil fails on single setups, the other 3/5/7/11 are normaly not far behind.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 13 November 2006, 13:07:10
Quote
Easier to repair to.....when one coil fails on single setups, the other 3/5/7/11 are normaly not far behind.
Yes they all go, but easier to diagnose b/c you can move the coil and see if the fault code follows.  Single coils I have done are dead easy to replace, just snap in.  One coil type can fit 4/6/8 cyl etc.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 14 November 2006, 14:52:22
Latest update....

Read the codes on the car and i had...

Random / Multiple Cylinder Misfires
Cyl 2 Misfires
Cyl 3 Misfires
Cyl 4 Misfires
Cyl 6 Misfires

I cleared the codes from the system, and then did my best to run the car for a while. It would run for about 20 seconds before dying so ran it 3 times like this.

Read codes again but none were found.

Would it have been running long enough to generate new codes if there were any?

If not, i'm kind of thinking that maybe the source of the problem is fixed (by replacing the coil pack on bank 2), and that by replacing the cat, i would hopefully have a healthy car again?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 14 November 2006, 14:57:13
When running, does it run ok before running out of breath? Does either EML or emmision light come on whilst running?

I think you are gonna have to drop the cat off to check if blocked though....
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 14 November 2006, 15:10:20
When it first starts up, it sounds perfect for about a second or 2, but then quickly starts stuttering.

Not sure about the lights, and my battery is now dead so i will let you know a bit later...

Will try to get the cat off later, or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: omegaV6CD on 14 November 2006, 16:16:29
Quote
When it first starts up, it sounds perfect for about a second or 2, but then quickly starts stuttering.

Not sure about the lights, and my battery is now dead so i will let you know a bit later...

Will try to get the cat off later, or tomorrow.

Get a pressure reader and by using an adaptor on the lamda sensor threads try and read the backpressure in the cats with the engine running so that you can get an indication if the cats are knackered. Also get a sparkplug tester and check each coilpack. You don't need to get the cat off by the way.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 14 November 2006, 18:47:01
Ok, strange development...

Got my car towed to my local trusted independant garage. They have done some checks on the car (lambda sensors i think) and they think the cats are fine.

They have, however, said that they think coil pack 1 needs replacing. I have obviously told them the history but they insist its an issue.

If the cats are fine, and assuming its not just the coil packs at fault, what else might cause the mis-firing?

Are there any leads, hoses, vacuum pipes, connectors that might have come un-done (or inadvertantly been undone by me) that could cause this?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 14 November 2006, 21:18:14
If only.......

Saw this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-VECTRA-OMEGA-COIL-PACK-FOR-2-6-AND-3-2-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ120053198513QQihZ002QQcategoryZ10404QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem) on ebay!

Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: omegaV6CD on 14 November 2006, 22:56:49
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Ok, strange development...

Got my car towed to my local trusted independant garage. They have done some checks on the car (lambda sensors i think) and they think the cats are fine.

They have, however, said that they think coil pack 1 needs replacing. I have obviously told them the history but they insist its an issue.

If the cats are fine, and assuming its not just the coil packs at fault, what else might cause the mis-firing?

Are there any leads, hoses, vacuum pipes, connectors that might have come un-done (or inadvertantly been undone by me) that could cause this?

Is there enough pressure in the fuel rail?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 14 November 2006, 22:57:57
Sorry for sounding dumb, but how would you check that?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 15 November 2006, 08:37:46
Starting from scratch, what exactly did you remove when cleaning the throttle assembly?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 15 November 2006, 09:01:56
When removing the throttle body i did the following...

Un-clipped the 2 connectors on the bagpipes.
removed 2 thin hoses
Removed bagpipes.
removed the 3 hoses connected to the throttle body (2 with circlips and one small push-on one underneath)
un-clipped the connector to the dbw throttle
removed 4 torx bolts
removed throttle body
cleaned and replaced.
I have checked all of the above but am worried that i may have knocked something else while doing this...

Ooooh, just remembered something else i did!

Before i realised the belt in my cambelt kit had no markings on it, i started to remove the plenum. Would there have been something at the rear of the plenum i might have inadvertantly pulled out?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 15 November 2006, 19:35:55
Just thought i'd post an update...

Garage have so far done the following:

Replaced coil pack 1
Tried a replacement crank sensor
Tried a new throttle switch
Ruled out CAT by removing / checking Lambda sensors (not sure how this works)

So far no joy and still running awful.

They also say they have found a big list of fault codes stored against the transmission.

Hoping to have some positive feedback from them tomorrow. Getting disillusioned with the car now.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 15 November 2006, 22:14:07
I still think they're right about the fuel filter/fuel pressure.  If not cats, that's where I'd look next.  Plus only costs a tenner for the filter.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 10:02:42
Ok, we have more news this morning.

Fuel filter is going to be replaced, but the fault seems to be electrical.

1) If the dbw throttle is unplugged, and the car started, then the car will sit and idle quite happily for as long as you like and sounds fine. No missing etc.
2) Plug the throttle back in while its running and it dies immediately.
3) If the fault codes are cleared it seems to run like a bag of bones until they are stored again. Then next time of running, and thereafter, it seems to run ok again.
4) Manual opening of the throttle does not increase revs, but garage man believes that might be because other parts of the system are not expecting it to be opened??

The garage are wanting to replace the throttle body assy. as they say they have tested the connector / wiring. This is a non returnable part so if they go ahead and order it and it makes no improvement then its still going to cost me nearly £300.

Can anyone help me and tell me if you run the car with the throttle unplugged, and plug it back in, does it still run? Also, if you manually open throttle with it unplugged, does it increase rpm??

I would REALLY appreciate your help on this one.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 10:08:35
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Ok, we have more news this morning.

Fuel filter is going to be replaced, but the fault seems to be electrical.

1) If the dbw throttle is unplugged, and the car started, then the car will sit and idle quite happily for as long as you like and sounds fine. No missing etc.
2) Plug the throttle back in while its running and it dies immediately.
3) If the fault codes are cleared it seems to run like a bag of bones until they are stored again. Then next time of running, and thereafter, it seems to run ok again.
4) Manual opening of the throttle does not increase revs, but garage man believes that might be because other parts of the system are not expecting it to be opened??

The garage are wanting to replace the throttle body assy. as they say they have tested the connector / wiring. This is a non returnable part so if they go ahead and order it and it makes no improvement then its still going to cost me nearly £300.

Can anyone help me and tell me if you run the car with the throttle unplugged, and plug it back in, does it still run? Also, if you manually open throttle with it unplugged, does it increase rpm??

I would REALLY appreciate your help on this one.
Soz, can't test mine as its not DBW like yours :(

Are the electrical bits (servo and pot) available as seperate part?  Can they do a live data test on throttle position and movement?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 10:20:51
They have borrowed a proper tech2 and have tried to control throttle through this but are unable to?

Apparently its only available as an assembly.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 16 November 2006, 10:40:32
You can really get into an expensive wild goose chase here.  What is critical is if the alignment process is successful.  There should be error codes if not.  However, if the alignment is not successful there is more than just the TB that may be the cause.

If at all possible try to borrow used parts to prove what is wrong.  I had a similar problem once on a DBW car.  Borrowed a TB, it helped me find the problem but the TB was fine.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 10:50:45
What do you mean by alignment process?

I realise the whole wild goose chase can get expensive, but i don't know anywhere i can borrow a TB from and its a factory order item with Vx apparently.

I was hoping someone on here with a 2.6 or 3.2 might be able to unplug their dbw throttle and see if the behaviour i described was normal.

Should Tech2 be able to control the throttle?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 16 November 2006, 13:44:58
Every time the ECU loses power, and maybe if you unplug the TB, the ECU has to go through an alignment process where it learns the motion range of the TB.  This usually happens automatically if you turn the ignition on without starting the car and leave it for 3-5mins.  You must not touch the accelerator pedal during this process.  If you listen carefully you can hear the TB clicking back and forth.  When it is done you can start the car.  If this isn't done correctly then you may need to clear error codes before it will do it properly.

What is critical is the error codes in the ECU.  Also, I'm surprised it runs with the TB unplugged.  Never tried it though, and don't suggest people try it.  Could cause problems that might require use of a Tech2 to resolve.  A Tech2 should be able to go through a diagnostics process where it moves the TB through the full range, but I have never used a Tech2 so can't say for sure.  However, something like the alignment could keep that diagnostics from working.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 14:26:34
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Should Tech2 be able to control the throttle?
I believe so...   ...not having dbw, i cannot 100% confirm
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 16 November 2006, 18:03:24
Ok....from how i see it.....garage is diagnosing throttle body fault.....now this is the same part you took apart for cleaning.....so is there any chance that you have somehow not put it back on correctly??

Does the garage know you've had it apart for cleaning?

A new throttle body may cure it.....but taking the old one off and reassembling again may do the job as well.

I would have thought too that a tech2 should be able to control throttle......i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders.....so if it can do that....controlling the throttle should be a doddle for it. (in my can i justify buying a tech2 or shud i buy another cheapo 'techy2 type' lead)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 18:26:45
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Ok....from how i see it.....garage is diagnosing throttle body fault.....now this is the same part you took apart for cleaning.....so is there any chance that you have somehow not put it back on correctly??

Does the garage know you've had it apart for cleaning?

A new throttle body may cure it.....but taking the old one off and reassembling again may do the job as well.

I would have thought too that a tech2 should be able to control throttle......i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders.....so if it can do that....controlling the throttle should be a doddle for it. (in my can i justify buying a tech2 or shud i buy another cheapo 'techy2 type' lead)

I guess it is possible i didn't do something right when i took it off and put it back. Yes i told the garage EVERYTHING and they have had it off and replaced it but no improvement.

I have now told them to go ahead and get a new throttle body so we'll find out in the morning if thats what was causing the problem...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 19:16:53
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i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders

 :o

Now that would be impressive. But I suspect it can't  :-?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 16 November 2006, 20:58:32
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Quote
i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders

 :o

Now that would be impressive. But I suspect it can't  :-?

Apparantly it can.....ive read up a bit on tech2....to see i can justify buying one  :-/
You can put in a mode where it increases the idle revs (hence why i said in earlier post i should be easy for it to control the idle revs) to about 1000rpm iirc then it shuts offs one injection valve at a time....and revs should drop by 100rpm on each cylinder it does it on, if compression is ok (think this might have been for a v6 tho  :-/ )....i remember from what i read that revs might drop by another 50rpm if cooling fan cuts in......this reading came from a prog that i dont have  ;)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 21:02:14
Quote
Quote
Quote
i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders

 :o

Now that would be impressive. But I suspect it can't  :-?

Apparantly it can.....ive read up a bit on tech2....to see i can justify buying one  :-/
You can put in a mode where it increases the idle revs (hence why i said in earlier post i should be easy for it to control the idle revs) to about 1000rpm iirc then it shuts offs one injection valve at a time....and revs should drop by 100rpm on each cylinder it does it on, if compression is ok (think this might have been for a v6 tho  :-/ )....i remember from what i read that revs might drop by another 50rpm if cooling fan cuts in......this reading came from a prog that i dont have  ;)
Ah, right, so can't tell you compression, but hints that compression is OK?

If you are thinking of getting one, you need more than Tech2.  To authorise it to do certain stuff, you need a valid subscription to TIS complete with valid Vx registered dongle.  For your Veccy-C, you also will need a CANdi lead...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 21:10:47
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If you are thinking of getting one, you need more than Tech2.  To authorise it to do certain stuff, you need a valid subscription to TIS complete with valid Vx registered dongle.  For your Veccy-C, you also will need a CANdi lead...

How much would all of that lot set someone back?
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 21:13:52
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Quote
If you are thinking of getting one, you need more than Tech2.  To authorise it to do certain stuff, you need a valid subscription to TIS complete with valid Vx registered dongle.  For your Veccy-C, you also will need a CANdi lead...

How much would all of that lot set someone back?
You really do not want to know....
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 21:15:38
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You really do not want to know....

Oh go on, i really do.....
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 16 November 2006, 21:17:32
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Quote
You really do not want to know....

Oh go on, i really do.....
Several thousand for the unit, several hundred for the CANdi, and over a thousand a year for TIS subscription....
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 16 November 2006, 21:21:35
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Several thousand for the unit, several hundred for the CANdi, and over a thousand a year for TIS subscription....

 :o Wow! Think i'll buy a couple then!  ;)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 16 November 2006, 21:26:56
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
i read that a tech2 can do a compression test on the cylinders

 :o

Now that would be impressive. But I suspect it can't  :-?

Apparantly it can.....ive read up a bit on tech2....to see i can justify buying one  :-/
You can put in a mode where it increases the idle revs (hence why i said in earlier post i should be easy for it to control the idle revs) to about 1000rpm iirc then it shuts offs one injection valve at a time....and revs should drop by 100rpm on each cylinder it does it on, if compression is ok (think this might have been for a v6 tho  :-/ )....i remember from what i read that revs might drop by another 50rpm if cooling fan cuts in......this reading came from a prog that i dont have  ;)
Ah, right, so can't tell you compression, but hints that compression is OK?

If you are thinking of getting one, you need more than Tech2.  To authorise it to do certain stuff, you need a valid subscription to TIS complete with valid Vx registered dongle.  For your Veccy-C, you also will need a CANdi lead...

Well yes...i guess so.....doesnt tell you the compression figures....but assumes if engine revs drops by 100 rpm you should have about right compression on each cylinder......tech2 + other stuff would be nice....but ive got to buy another car....prolly another VeccyC by Jan so this will b4 tech2....tho i will prolly go for eml327 in the meantime  :-/
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 16 November 2006, 21:57:57
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Quote
You really do not want to know....

Oh go on, i really do.....
I think that the fully loaded ones are about $6,500 + tax in the states.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 17 November 2006, 19:29:57
Had a call from Rock earlier, sounds like good news :)

I'm sure he'll be along shortly to give the full story, but looks like a few things that had to be changed.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 17 November 2006, 21:02:30
Yep, i haven't picked the car up yet but apparently its now all done and running like a dream again....

Here's what fixed it..

1) Replacement coil packs for banks 1 & 2.
2) Replacement Throttle assembly (including the electric dbw stuff)
3) Replacement Air flow sensor.

Coil packs apparently solved misfiring.
Tech2 was unable to control throttle, and replacing the throttle assembly solved this.
After replacing the throttle it was still not behaving 100% but ALOT better than previously. They changed the air flow sensor on a bit of a guess and it fixed it.

Now all running perfect, and no new fault codes being stored. Not sure why no fault codes were being stored for air flow but am just happy its running again.

 :)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 17 November 2006, 21:31:44
Thats good news  :y
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: theolodian on 17 November 2006, 22:25:42
Good that you solved it!  Always hard when more than one thing is wrong.  Don't worry about MAF codes.  They always die without codes, not just VX either.  Only way to check is to read g/s during a thrash around the block.
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Markjay on 17 November 2006, 23:41:44
It seems to me that you have a problem with coil packs for banks 1 & 2, the throttle assembly, and the air flow sensor - I would change all three.
Oh, you've just done that and it all works now? So I was right all along!

 ;D ;D ;D

Glad it's sorted mate!  :y






Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 18 November 2006, 12:48:47
Judging by the fact Rock hasn't posted this morning (he was picking up earlier today), I imagine he's out enjoying his Omega :)
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: EddieX on 18 November 2006, 19:22:32
Glad you got it sorted Rock. Thank god (or whoever you pray to in Omegaland) you didn't take my advice and start thrashing 3 kinds of s**t out of the cats. That WOULD have been an expensive mistake :-[
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Rock on 19 November 2006, 15:16:28
Yes i picked the car up yesterday morning and i have been out enjoying it. It feels better than it ever has :)

Thanks to everybody for the advice, general comment, and moral support!  :y
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 19 November 2006, 15:22:51
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Yes i picked the car up yesterday morning and i have been out enjoying it. It feels better than it ever has :)

Thanks to everybody for the advice, general comment, and moral support!  :y
Really pleased its all sorted at last :y

Shame about the cost though  :'(
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Auto Addict on 19 November 2006, 18:15:41
Enjoy  :y
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 19 November 2006, 20:33:32
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Shame about the cost though  :'(

That must have cost over £500 just on parts  :'(
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: TheBoy on 19 November 2006, 20:36:14
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Quote

Shame about the cost though  :'(

That must have cost over £500 just on parts  :'(
Mind you, thats cheaper than a cat, which at one point Rock was told he had to buy...
Title: Re: Vauxhall dealer Killed my Car!
Post by: Auto Addict on 19 November 2006, 20:43:45
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Quote
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Shame about the cost though  :'(

That must have cost over £500 just on parts  :'(
Mind you, thats cheaper than a cat, which at one point Rock was told he had to buy...

Lady next door was given two free, now using my garden as a toilet >:(