Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 18:15:42

Title: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 18:15:42
Ok, here goes. If you saw my post in general chat, you'd know that I've bought a lemon ;D

Here's the score.

It's missfiring, like mad. It will hardly run. it's on 3 cyls AT MOST and the whole car shakes.

Let the revs off, and she cuts out.

When revving, it sounded really metallic, like a bag of nails, which worried me, but thinking about it, it was actually just pinking.

I'm 100% sure the engine has been very much messed about with.

The EML is on.

A different DIS didn't help.

When I get time I will look at it, so far I know to check:

Condition of leads and spark plugs (obvious first)
All electrical connections/earths.
Flash out and investigate fault codes
Put strobe on plug leads 1 by one and see if I can see it firing
Compression test?? (I don't have a tester)
Pop off timing belt cover, make sure cam sprokets are located on the correct keys and that the engine is timed up correctly (I get the impression some muppet has thrown this together).

I'm thinking, given the bit of sludge on the stick, it may be a head gasket issue, which is why I suggested compression test. Would a failed HG Cause it to run so badly, if not at all? After having it running for a matter of a couple of minutes, and driving a few yards, the coolant bottle seemed IMO too pressurised.

Also noticed a 3 pin electrical connector, to the left of the ECU box, is broken, but it doesn't seem important.

I'd be very very very very veeerryyy grateful for any more suggestions on what I could do to narrow this down.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: TheBoy on 31 January 2007, 18:31:17
I guess flashing out fault codes is a simple start.

I have a compression tester, but as I found out with Rover, its not really long enough to get a decent seal on multivalve engines...
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Martin_1962 on 31 January 2007, 18:39:56
To be honest since it has been thrown together I'd check the following

Cam Timing, plugs, DIS, correct connections, plug leads, compression.

I would be VERY tempted to lift the head and check inside, and use new cam belt, tensioner, & waterpump.

I would check plugs, leads and connections first
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 18:48:29
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To be honest since it has been thrown together I'd check the following

Cam Timing, plugs, DIS, correct connections, plug leads, compression.

I would be VERY tempted to lift the head and check inside, and use new cam belt, tensioner, & waterpump.

I would check plugs, leads and connections first

Totally agree with your logic Martin, only thing is, this car's a shed, and the only reason I really want to get it running short term, is to test out the LPG kit!


Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: tunnie on 31 January 2007, 18:49:37
the trouble is doing what martin suggests (which is right) will cost a few quid, its only a '95 and not really worth that much  :(

Its also had the bump, so thats going to make it even less valuable  :'(

You got the valuable LPG kit, might be worth stripping it and looking for a newer 2.0? or even 2.2 and LPG that?
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 18:54:13
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the trouble is doing what martin suggests (which is right) will cost a few quid, its only a '95 and not really worth that much  :(

Its also had the bump, so thats going to make it even less valuable  :'(

You got the valuable LPG kit, might be worth stripping it and looking for a newer 2.0? or even 2.2 and LPG that?

100% Agree Tunnie.

Not sure I can afford a 2.2, I was thinking save for couple of months and get maybe an S reg 2.0CD Auto with low miles.

Wonder on the feasability of transferring the LPG though....
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: tunnie on 31 January 2007, 18:59:23
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the trouble is doing what martin suggests (which is right) will cost a few quid, its only a '95 and not really worth that much  :(

Its also had the bump, so thats going to make it even less valuable  :'(

You got the valuable LPG kit, might be worth stripping it and looking for a newer 2.0? or even 2.2 and LPG that?

100% Agree Tunnie.

Not sure I can afford a 2.2, I was thinking save for couple of months and get maybe an S reg 2.0CD Auto with low miles.

Wonder on the feasability of transferring the LPG though....

Martin is your man for LPG info, sod all experiance I have had with them. Also drop omegatoy a PM he knows his LPG as well, although he is not a fan of 4 pots    ::) But i am sure he can offer some advice too.

Random thought James - That project i mentioned in a PM, get that? - Use the parts from your other V6 get it running and use that as your main motor? From the photos it looks in very good condition and its an Elite  :y
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Martin_1962 on 31 January 2007, 19:02:12
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the trouble is doing what martin suggests (which is right) will cost a few quid, its only a '95 and not really worth that much  :(

Its also had the bump, so thats going to make it even less valuable  :'(

You got the valuable LPG kit, might be worth stripping it and looking for a newer 2.0? or even 2.2 and LPG that?

100% Agree Tunnie.

Not sure I can afford a 2.2, I was thinking save for couple of months and get maybe an S reg 2.0CD Auto with low miles.

Wonder on the feasability of transferring the LPG though....
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 19:04:00
I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.


Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: tunnie on 31 January 2007, 19:38:08
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Chopsdad on 31 January 2007, 21:49:52
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 31 January 2007, 21:56:14
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[

Way way way way too low on a run for a 4 pot.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Chopsdad on 31 January 2007, 22:01:06
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[

Way way way way too low on a run for a 4 pot.

I know!  >:( And thats on Shell Optimax  >:( MAF was faulty and replaced but MPG not changed, fitted new fuel filter, cleaned out breathers,tyres 30 PSI all round.... any suggestions  :-/
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: TheBoy on 31 January 2007, 22:02:08
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[

Way way way way too low on a run for a 4 pot.

I know!  >:( And thats on Shell Optimax  >:( MAF was faulty and replaced but MPG not changed, fitted new fuel filter, cleaned out breathers,tyres 30 PSI all round.... any suggestions  :-/
a v6?
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Chopsdad on 31 January 2007, 22:10:34
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[

Way way way way too low on a run for a 4 pot.

I know!  >:( And thats on Shell Optimax  >:( MAF was faulty and replaced but MPG not changed, fitted new fuel filter, cleaned out breathers,tyres 30 PSI all round.... any suggestions  :-/
a v6?

I meant helpful suggestions  >:(
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: tunnie on 31 January 2007, 23:03:52
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I got your PM mate, I'm chewing on it!!

Although to be honest, in terms of my own car, I'd rather stick with a 4 pot, on the basis that I'm poor and that I'd rather have an SGI gas kit than an SPI one.



Good point, underpowered as they are. Good on MPG. Was comparing it against the Senator on the way back to uni, reset the mpg leaving home, went via a m8's and on to uni, set cruise at 70 , averaged 37.9  :D

That other car would be ripe for breaking  ;)

I think yours has LPG already Tunnie - 37.9 at 70 - I get 31/32 if I'm lucky :-[

Way way way way too low on a run for a 4 pot.

I know!  >:( And thats on Shell Optimax  >:( MAF was faulty and replaced but MPG not changed, fitted new fuel filter, cleaned out breathers,tyres 30 PSI all round.... any suggestions  :-/
a v6?

I meant helpful suggestions  >:(

Reset the fuel comp when you leave home, do a motorway run....

I put the fuel comp to instant readout on the motorway, on a flat stretch of the M40 i easily see 40 mpg on the instant readout @ 70, even at 80 with the cruise on a flat stretch it will still read 38...

Many times I have reset the gauge leaving home which is Brackley, then a 15 mile country run (pulling out on T junctions) to a village called Chacombe, then its a 65 mile ish blast down the M40 and I go down the M4 into Hayes.

On a run like that I quite easily get mid 30's on a run... but as soon as i start doing town runs it falls dramatically, into low 30's high 20's...

Lowest ever i have seen on the average reading is 28 from lots of runs to a local town.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 19:14:40
Back to the fault codes....

Is the 19 code normal with the engine not running, or not?

Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: TheBoy on 02 February 2007, 19:45:08
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Back to the fault codes....

Is the 19 code normal with the engine not running, or not?

Certainly not on V6, I imagine 4 pot the same.  On V6, it means its seen the signal on this start, but then can't make sense of it...
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 19:50:01
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Back to the fault codes....

Is the 19 code normal with the engine not running, or not?

Certainly not on V6, I imagine 4 pot the same.  On V6, it means its seen the signal on this start, but then can't make sense of it...

So that means, that there is a good likelyhood, that the crank sensor is the cause of the bad mis-firing?
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: TheBoy on 02 February 2007, 19:56:13
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Back to the fault codes....

Is the 19 code normal with the engine not running, or not?

Certainly not on V6, I imagine 4 pot the same.  On V6, it means its seen the signal on this start, but then can't make sense of it...

So that means, that there is a good likelyhood, that the crank sensor is the cause of the bad mis-firing?
I can only go by my own experience. When mine failed, the engine cut. No misfire.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 20:06:54
Hrmmm. This one is starting, but missing on one cyl, and often cutting out at idle.

Think I need more investigation and a compression test :(
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 20:24:15
Given that the coolant pressured (IMHO) too much for a short time of running, I saw a bit of sludge on the stick (only a bit) and that it's missing....

Could this be a HG issue?
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 20:24:53
If so, could change a HG on one of those very easily now ;)
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Admin on 02 February 2007, 21:58:23
Well a blown HG will certainly cause some bad running...

But first things first.

Cam timing check then a compression test.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: rpont on 02 February 2007, 22:25:57
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Hrmmm. This one is starting, but missing on one cyl, and often cutting out at idle.

Think I need more investigation and a compression test :(
My cranksensor has a dicky cable and it was hard to start, ran perfectly at over 600rpm but kept cutting out at normal idle of 500. When it was at 600 if I stamped the throttle it would pop a bit before acce;erating. I had code 19 logged so checked what type of plug I had and in doing so I moved the cable. Since then it's started perfectly, idles at 500 and accelerates straight away when stamping the throttle. The new sensor arrived this morning and I shall fit it before the car goes on the road. For me a code 19 means a new sensor and I'd do that before looking anywhere else. You could try moving the cable though, it might fix it temporarily or kill it totally.
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 02 February 2007, 22:44:31
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Well a blown HG will certainly cause some bad running...

But first things first.

Cam timing check then a compression test.

First jobs on my list :)
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: Martin_1962 on 03 February 2007, 20:24:35
Any luck James?
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 03 February 2007, 23:40:59
I'm on nights matey, got called into work.

Unfortunately I won't be able to get my hands on it until monday lunchtime :(
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: TheBoy on 04 February 2007, 10:31:06
btw, compression tester posted yesterday, so should be with you mon/tue...
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 04 February 2007, 19:22:56
 Thankyou :)
Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 05 February 2007, 03:34:13
Ok, today is the beginning of my troubleshooting, to discover why this engine is mis-firing. I've been on nightshifts, so I will need a bit of sleep, but hopefully will get some time.

Jobs for today are, in this order:

* Remove Aux belt, and remove timing cover. Check that the valve timing is set spot on and that the belt is OK. Remove the bolts from the Camshaft pulleys, and ensure the pulleys are engaged in the correct keyways. Remove the cambelt and adjust if necessary (I hope I don't have to)

* Check the presence, and condition, of all the spark plugs.

* Compression test, (if it arrives today) to determine any possible internal issues. (I can turn the engine over with the switch without the barrel being installed ;) )

* Get an ignition barrel assembly and key, so I don't have to keep bump starting it!

* Attach strobe to each HT lead, and find out if it's missing on any particular plug. Investigate as necessary.

* If at this point I've discovered nothing, time to look at other issues, such as crank sensor, cam sensor etc.

But to be honest, it sounds so nasty and is pinking so much at high revs, that I don't think it's a sensor.

Time will tell, I will be posting up the results.... I must just keep reminding myself that this engine has likely been thrown together by monkeys that don't know Vauxhalls from Adam, so I'm really not going to be able to assume anything and must not overlook the obvious....

Title: Re: 4 Pot Awful running
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 05 February 2007, 03:36:30
I would love to just find a plug with the gap closed right up or something

Don't think that'll be the case though.

Will update a bit later!