Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:16:18
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Right.. got the old gloves on after work today, decided to make a start stripping down, to get to the crank seal.
Fair play, getting that crank pulley centre bolt off was a NIGHTMARE!! Tight as a ducks doo-da..
Anyhow, following various bodges at locking the flywheel - it's off.
I have stripped it all down. Set the engine to TDC, and locked the cams. Removed the belt. Then I undid the bolt, and gently prised off the pulley.
Here comes the problem.
When I removed the pulley, there was a small bit of metal in it. This bit of metal, looks like it's come off the inside of the pulley.
Now, I cannot see how the pulley locks on to the bit coming out of the crank. There is like a cut-out in the crank, but no way for it to lock onto the pulley?
HELP!!!!! Surely there must be a way, for that pulley to only go back in one position?
Looks like I may need a new pulley.. but saying that, the bit of metal that broke off was extremely small...
Oil seal is definately leaking... but I still need to work out how to get this pulley back on sucesfully, before I can start re-assembling :'( :'(
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I could look it up in TIS, but seeing as you want an answer from MDTM or Matchless.... :-X
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I could look it up in TIS, but seeing as you want an answer from MDTM or Matchless.... :-X
Come on Jaime, Be a Pal, I'm in a pickle :(
;D
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Right.. got the old gloves on after work today, decided to make a start stripping down, to get to the crank seal.
Fair play, getting that crank pulley centre bolt off was a NIGHTMARE!! Tight as a ducks doo-da..
Anyhow, following various bodges at locking the flywheel - it's off.
I have stripped it all down. Set the engine to TDC, and locked the cams. Removed the belt. Then I undid the bolt, and gently prised off the pulley.
Here comes the problem.
When I removed the pulley, there was a small bit of metal in it. This bit of metal, looks like it's come off the inside of the pulley.
Now, I cannot see how the pulley locks on to the bit coming out of the crank. There is like a cut-out in the crank, but no way for it to lock onto the pulley?
HELP!!!!! Surely there must be a way, for that pulley to only go back in one position?
Looks like I may need a new pulley.. but saying that, the bit of metal that broke off was extremely small...
Oil seal is definately leaking... but I still need to work out how to get this pulley back on sucesfully, before I can start re-assembling :'( :'(
Looked it up in my Haynes for you and it didnt say anything more helpful than "slide it back on aligning with the slot" which aint much good.
OK, now I see why you said Mark or Matchless ;D
TB must be bluffing ;)
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sh!tting bricks at the mo -
1) - because I need the car tomorrow night, and I may need to source a new crank pulley
2) - will I ever get the crank pulley onto the crank again in the right position?! Is it possible for it to be "out?"
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Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.
HtH
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Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.
HtH
Thats what I was thinking this bit of metal could be... but Haynes manual is very coy on that and Ive not pulled one of these off myself - at least not on Vx. MUST be some way of retaining it in the correct position - I dont believe it could possibly rely on bolt tension to hold it in the correct position...
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Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.
HtH
Thats what I was thinking this bit of metal could be... but Haynes manual is very coy on that and Ive not pulled one of these off myself - at least not on Vx. MUST be some way of retaining it in the correct position - I dont believe it could possibly rely on bolt tension to hold it in the correct position...
surely not..
I would very much love to see a picture of what the inside o the sprocket should look like..
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Agreed. On some engines, you can adjust the timing mark position by use of offset woodruffs..... Rare, but out there somewhere....
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Jaime? ::) :'(
What does your magic laptop say~?
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If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.
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pdf emailed.... ....not sure it really helps though :-/
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If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.
Thing that's confusing me Brucie, is that there is a slot, in the pulley, and a slot on the crank bit.
And if you line them up, the pulley is nowhere near TDC, which is how I took it off...
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currently wading through something I don't have...... :-X
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currently wading through something I don't have...... :-X
Thanks a million :y
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currently wading through something I don't have...... :-X
Thanks a million :y
Have you checked your email yet? As I say, not sure it helps though.
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I've checked it thanks mate, but there's no reference to lining up the pulley.. :(
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So far, only reference I can find is 'install crankshaft pulley (holes are offset for correct installation.'
Presume yours has more than just a central single bolt?
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If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.
Thing that's confusing me Brucie, is that there is a slot, in the pulley, and a slot on the crank bit.
And if you line them up, the pulley is nowhere near TDC, which is how I took it off...
Are you sure about that? Slot in the pulley and a slot in the crank with a piece of metal that fits in the gap would be a pretty typical sort of setup. The metal piece wouldnt be massively substantial, but it would definitely need to be there...
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Could you post some pics James? I'm sure it would help.
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Pretty sure the crank is set to TDC.. but if I line the slots up, then according to the outer pulley marks, it would be at about 60 deg BTDC
Brucie - you're thinking of the outer pulley. I'm talking about the inner one, held on my the central E20 Torx Bolt..
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no camera here :(
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no camera here :(
Camera on someones mobile phone??
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no camera here :(
Camera on someones mobile phone??
Girlfriend has got one.. I could send someone an SMS pic... but can't get it on PC
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OK, now see how it goes together....
Looking at a parts picture, the end of the crankshaft is tapered and its upon this that the bottom toothed pulley is held by the central bolt.
The outer pulley is then located onto this by the 6 or so bolts which are offset.
Sadly, no sign of a key or similar yet but I would really think one is needed to ensure drive is maintained other than through a single central bolt.
Will keep looking.... :y
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no camera here :(
Camera on someones mobile phone??
Girlfriend has got one.. I could send someone an SMS pic... but can't get it on PC
Send it me and I will upload it. Will PM you my number...
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OK, now see how it goes together....
Looking at a parts picture, the end of the crankshaft is tapered and its upon this that the bottom toothed pulley is held by the central bolt.
The outer pulley is then located onto this by the 6 or so bolts which are offset.
Sadly, no sign of a key or similar yet but I would really think one is needed to ensure drive is maintained other than through a single central bolt.
Will keep looking.... :y
Neither EPC or TIS seem to cover it very well...
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Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
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Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!
CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
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If I had EPC it would show nothing other than the pulley and a tapered end on the crank, no mention of any woodruff keys. Is the slot in the crank ground like a keyway?
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Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!
CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?
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Stupid crap thing won't send...
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Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!
CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?
Could be I really don't know anymore :'(
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Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.
If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....
250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.
As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems.... :y
No explanation of where your bit metal came from though..... :-/
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Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!
CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?
Could be I really don't know anymore :'(
Always hard from a distance, but my guess is that a) the crank has turned and 2) the slots should line up and 3) that bit of metal is the key that needs to go in the slots.
If you lined the slots up and put the outer pulley back on, would that show you where the timing was?
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Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.
If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....
250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.
As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems.... :y
No explanation of where your bit metal came from though..... :-/
Right, looking into the small pulley with the teeth on... I can see where a bit of metal has broken off. I wonder if this is what holds it on the slot on the crank...
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With no actual experience of this engine but a number of others, that would be a fair assumption.
A machined peg internally on the pulley to mate with a cut slot on the crankshaft or vice versa. That would also explain why the keys are not shown as a part - there are none seperately. Would mean a replavement bottom toothed pulley. Ron McB is breaking an engine, is he not??
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Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.
If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....
250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.
As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems.... :y
No explanation of where your bit metal came from though..... :-/
Right, looking into the small pulley with the teeth on... I can see where a bit of metal has broken off. I wonder if this is what holds it on the slot on the crank...
The metal has broken off? Woodruff keys use a seperate 'key', not one attached to one part. Would this then line up? If so, you need a new pulley....
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With no actual experience of this engine but a number of others, that would be a fair assumption.
A machined peg internally on the pulley to mate with a cut slot on the crankshaft or vice versa. That would also explain why the keys are not shown as a part - there are none seperately. Would mean a replavement bottom toothed pulley. Ron McB is breaking an engine, is he not??
I think this is the way it's going... I also have a spare engine, with Gbox off, so flywheel locking wouldn't be too hard. Thing is, it's 75 miles from me, and car :(
I may have to ask FIN about having his...if he still has that engine. I doubt I'll get it for tomorrow, the next day may do at a push ::)
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Must have had too much fresh air today....
There HAS to be a means to correctly locate the pulley on the crank. Thats all its for, to locate it. All thrust/torsion is taken up by the grip of the taper as induced by the chuffin tight bolt.
New pully required and a clean out of the broken bit in the crank taper.......
How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt? Undue twisting on the pulley causing it to shear the locator peg or was it fubar'ed to start with?
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There HAS to be a means to correctly locate the pulley on the crank. Thats all its for, to locate it. All thrust/torsion is taken up by the grip of the taper as induced by the chuffin tight bolt.
Agreed. Ive not seen a crank pulley with integral key built in but I guess its possible... Unusual though.
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How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt? Undue twisting on the pulley causing it to shear the locator peg or was it fubar'ed to start with?
Sadly i reckon it sheared whilst undoing the kin tight bolt :-/ That 250++ is kin tight :(
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How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt?
Locked flywheel
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My money is on it being either a woodruf key or a lug that has broken off the pulley.
The slot machined in the end of the crankshaft - is it a constant "depth" throughout its' length from front to back or a kind of "half moon" profile?
If it's a constant depth I'd wager there was a lug on the pulley and it broke off. If not, was the bit of metal that came off a half moon profile on one edge and straight on the other?
Some pics of the two ends and the bit of metal that came out would be good.
Since the timing reference for the crank is on the pulley there will be something to positively locate it at the correct position relative to the crank.
Sounds like the only way to be sure is for Ronnie to take his pulley off and see how it compares.
Kevin
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Ok, so you now know why we said to fabricate a tool to lock the crank....
If you lock the flywheel you bugger the woodruff key like you have done and normaly the pulley with it....lets hope the crank is not damaged (Can somebody look to see if the woodruff key is seperate to the crank on EPC as it might be a machined part of the crank in which case your in big trouble).
You should also have set the crank to 60 deg before tdc and popped the belt off and then let the cams relax.....much safer.
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James, the bit of metal was the keyway from the timing sprocket, you need a new sprocket. Is the slot in the crank OK?
The sprocket bolt is V.V.V.tight, something like 270nm + 45 deg. When you locked the crank instead of bolting a bar to the sprocket you transferred all that torque to the keyway and it isnt designed for that sort of load.
I hope your crank is OK, if so get another sprocket (McB may still have a spare block in his garden....) fit the sprocket and loosely do up the bolt to retain it. Now refit the belt etc and then bolt a piece of angle etc to the sprocket before torqueing up the bolt fully. The reason for this method is that you do not want the crank to rotate AT ALL relative to the cams.
BTW, when you prise out the old seal you will find a 'spacer' on the crank, pull this off and check for a groove worn in it by the seal. You can simply reverse this spacer so the seal runs on a fresh bit, if you dont the new seal will leak.
I made up this restraining bar for the crank sprocket :
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/matchless_pete/IMG_7355.jpg)
You can see the hole pattern for the sprocket on the end, I made a rubbing of the aux pulley to transfer the pattern to the ally angle.
Also a pic of the grooved spacer:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/matchless_pete/IMG_7358.jpg)
If you can get a sprocket locally then fine, otherwise try McB, if he still has the engine I can remove the sprocket from it and post.
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Mark - no sign of a seperate listing for a key that can be found on EPC or other 'paperwork' that a friend has access too..... ;)
After thinking on whats happened, I would be inclined towards there being a machined lug on the sprocket with a corresponding groove in the crank taper, rather than a permanent protruding keyway on the crank taper with a groove on the sprocket due to manufacturing/machining limitations.
Plus, as we now have found out, it will be easier to replace the sprocket complete rather than the crankshaft if the locating key fails........
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The key is an integral part of the sprocket.
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Question answered then, so, is the crank slot damaged at all...
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Question answered then, so, is the crank slot damaged at all...
Nope - there is no damage at all, to the crank slot that I can see. Hopefully, I have had a lucky escape.
By fabricate a tool to lock the crank, I just assumed you meant via the flywheel. (As I've always done on Rovers -Doh!! ) Nevermind, I'll know for next time.. good learning experience!
Mr McB doesn't have a pulley, I've emailed Henry and Rupert..
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ive got two! :)
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ive got two! :)
Given the strength of his arm, make sure you sell him them both, he may need a spare ;D
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ive got two! :)
Have you really got 2 toothed crank pulleys? I'm DESPERATE... can you help me mate? Are they intact with the keys intact?
Can you let me know a price inc postage? I'll be on again tonight...