Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:16:18

Title: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?)
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:16:18
Right.. got the old gloves on after work today, decided to make a start stripping down, to get to the crank seal.

Fair play, getting that crank pulley centre bolt off was a NIGHTMARE!! Tight as a ducks doo-da..

Anyhow, following various bodges at locking the flywheel - it's off.

I have stripped it all down. Set the engine to TDC, and locked the cams. Removed the belt. Then I undid the bolt, and gently prised off the pulley.

Here comes the problem.

When I removed the pulley, there was a small bit of metal in it. This bit of metal, looks like it's come off the inside of the pulley.

Now, I cannot see how the pulley locks on to the bit coming out of the crank. There is like a cut-out in the crank, but no way for it to lock onto the pulley?

HELP!!!!! Surely there must be a way, for that pulley to only go back in one position?

Looks like I may need a new pulley..   but saying that, the bit of metal that broke off was extremely small...

Oil seal is definately leaking... but I still need to work out how to get this pulley back on sucesfully, before I can start re-assembling  :'( :'(

Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 20:19:51
I could look it up in TIS, but seeing as you want an answer from MDTM or Matchless....  :-X
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:20:53
Quote
I could look it up in TIS, but seeing as you want an answer from MDTM or Matchless....  :-X

Come on Jaime, Be a Pal, I'm in a pickle :(

;D
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 20:33:18
Quote
Right.. got the old gloves on after work today, decided to make a start stripping down, to get to the crank seal.

Fair play, getting that crank pulley centre bolt off was a NIGHTMARE!! Tight as a ducks doo-da..

Anyhow, following various bodges at locking the flywheel - it's off.

I have stripped it all down. Set the engine to TDC, and locked the cams. Removed the belt. Then I undid the bolt, and gently prised off the pulley.

Here comes the problem.

When I removed the pulley, there was a small bit of metal in it. This bit of metal, looks like it's come off the inside of the pulley.

Now, I cannot see how the pulley locks on to the bit coming out of the crank. There is like a cut-out in the crank, but no way for it to lock onto the pulley?

HELP!!!!! Surely there must be a way, for that pulley to only go back in one position?

Looks like I may need a new pulley..   but saying that, the bit of metal that broke off was extremely small...

Oil seal is definately leaking... but I still need to work out how to get this pulley back on sucesfully, before I can start re-assembling  :'( :'(


Looked it up in my Haynes for you and it didnt say anything more helpful than "slide it back on aligning with the slot" which aint much good.

OK, now I see why you said Mark or Matchless  ;D

TB must be bluffing  ;)
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:36:13
sh!tting bricks at the mo -

1) - because I need the car tomorrow night, and I may need to source a new crank pulley
2) - will I ever get the crank pulley onto the crank again in the right position?! Is it possible for it to be "out?"

Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 20:37:39
Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.

HtH

Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 20:40:07
Quote
Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.

HtH


Thats what I was thinking this bit of metal could be...  but Haynes manual is very coy on that and Ive not pulled one of these off myself - at least not on Vx.   MUST be some way of retaining it in the correct position - I dont believe it could possibly rely on bolt tension to hold it in the correct position...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:41:27
Quote
Quote
Not been there on this particular engine but on others, theres normally a Woodruff Key or similar single spline to locate the pulley exactly on what is sometimes a taper shaft.

HtH


Thats what I was thinking this bit of metal could be...  but Haynes manual is very coy on that and Ive not pulled one of these off myself - at least not on Vx.   MUST be some way of retaining it in the correct position - I dont believe it could possibly rely on bolt tension to hold it in the correct position...

surely not..

I would very much love to see a picture of what the inside o the sprocket should look like..
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 20:43:16
Quote

Agreed.  On some engines, you can adjust the timing mark position by use of offset woodruffs.....  Rare, but out there somewhere....  
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:43:47
Jaime?  ::)  :'(

What does your magic laptop say~?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 20:44:37
If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 20:46:58
pdf emailed....   ....not sure it really helps though  :-/
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:47:03
Quote
If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.

Thing that's confusing me Brucie, is that there is a slot, in the pulley, and a slot on the crank bit.

And if you line them up, the pulley is nowhere near TDC, which is how I took it off...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 20:51:24
currently wading through something I don't have......    :-X
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:52:03
Quote
currently wading through something I don't have......    :-X

Thanks a million :y
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 20:52:54
Quote
Quote
currently wading through something I don't have......    :-X

Thanks a million :y
Have you checked your email yet? As I say, not sure it helps though.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 20:55:09
I've checked it thanks mate, but there's no reference to lining up the pulley.. :(
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 20:59:42
So far, only reference I can find is 'install crankshaft pulley (holes are offset for correct installation.'

Presume yours has more than just a central single bolt?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 21:00:47
Quote
Quote
If there is a key then there will be a corresponding slot in the pulley.

Thing that's confusing me Brucie, is that there is a slot, in the pulley, and a slot on the crank bit.

And if you line them up, the pulley is nowhere near TDC, which is how I took it off...

Are you sure about that?  Slot in the pulley and a slot in the crank with a piece of metal that fits in the gap would be a pretty typical sort of setup.  The metal piece wouldnt be massively substantial, but it would definitely need to be there...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: CaptainZok on 25 June 2007, 21:01:45
Could you post some pics James? I'm sure it would help.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:02:58
Pretty sure the crank is set to TDC.. but if I line the slots up, then according to the outer pulley marks, it would be at about 60 deg BTDC

Brucie - you're thinking of the outer pulley. I'm talking about the inner one, held on my the central E20 Torx Bolt..

Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:03:36
no camera here :(
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 21:05:37
Quote
no camera here :(

Camera on someones mobile phone??
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:06:30
Quote
Quote
no camera here :(

Camera on someones mobile phone??

Girlfriend has got one.. I could send someone an SMS pic... but can't get it on PC

Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 21:07:01
OK, now see how it goes together....

Looking at a parts picture, the end of the crankshaft is tapered and its upon this that the bottom toothed pulley is held by the central bolt.

The outer pulley is then located onto this by the 6 or so bolts which are offset.

Sadly, no sign of a key or similar yet but I would really think one is needed to ensure drive is maintained other than through a single central bolt.

Will keep looking....   :y
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 21:07:40
Quote
Quote
Quote
no camera here :(

Camera on someones mobile phone??

Girlfriend has got one.. I could send someone an SMS pic... but can't get it on PC


Send it me and I will upload it.  Will PM you my number...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 21:08:03
Quote
OK, now see how it goes together....

Looking at a parts picture, the end of the crankshaft is tapered and its upon this that the bottom toothed pulley is held by the central bolt.

The outer pulley is then located onto this by the 6 or so bolts which are offset.

Sadly, no sign of a key or similar yet but I would really think one is needed to ensure drive is maintained other than through a single central bolt.

Will keep looking....   :y
Neither EPC or TIS seem to cover it very well...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 21:09:33
Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:11:42
Quote
Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!

My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!

CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: CaptainZok on 25 June 2007, 21:14:39
If I had EPC it would show nothing other than the pulley and a tapered end on the crank, no mention of any woodruff keys. Is the slot in the crank ground like a keyway?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 21:16:42
Quote
Quote
Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!

My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!

CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:17:46
Stupid crap thing won't send...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:18:21
Quote
Quote
Quote
Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!

My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!

CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?

Could be I really don't know anymore :'(
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 21:21:07
Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.

If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....

250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.

As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems....   :y

No explanation of where your bit metal came from though.....   :-/
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 21:22:13
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Saying that, at 250Nm, thats friggin tight!

My Arm could tell you all about it, having removed it just... you can imagine how hard it is to remove, and stop crank turning!

CDX, ready for it mate, pics taken.
No possibility the crank has turned?

Could be I really don't know anymore :'(

Always hard from a distance, but my guess is that a) the crank has turned and 2) the slots should line up and 3) that bit of metal is the key that needs to go in the slots.

If you lined the slots up and put the outer pulley back on, would that show you where the timing was?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:22:38
Quote
Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.

If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....

250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.

As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems....   :y

No explanation of where your bit metal came from though.....   :-/

Right, looking into the small pulley with the teeth on... I can see where a bit of metal has broken off. I wonder if this is what holds it on the slot on the crank...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 21:26:51
With no actual experience of this engine but a number of others, that would be a fair assumption.

A machined peg internally on the pulley to mate with a cut slot on the crankshaft or vice versa.  That would also explain why the keys are not shown as a part - there are none seperately.  Would mean a replavement bottom toothed pulley.  Ron McB is breaking an engine, is he not??
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: TheBoy on 25 June 2007, 21:29:54
Quote
Quote
Nope, nothing to signify use of a key or a keyway, apparently.

If I had access to someother publications, it could possibly confirm that the inner pulley is located on the tapered end of the crank then tightened quite a bit....

250 NM then plus 45 degress then plus 15 degrees.

As TB said, thats nipping it up quite a bit and, provided everything is clean and dry, should not cauase any movement problems....   :y

No explanation of where your bit metal came from though.....   :-/

Right, looking into the small pulley with the teeth on... I can see where a bit of metal has broken off. I wonder if this is what holds it on the slot on the crank...
The metal has broken off? Woodruff keys use a seperate 'key', not one attached to one part.  Would this then line up? If so, you need a new pulley....
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 21:29:58
Quote
With no actual experience of this engine but a number of others, that would be a fair assumption.

A machined peg internally on the pulley to mate with a cut slot on the crankshaft or vice versa.  That would also explain why the keys are not shown as a part - there are none seperately.  Would mean a replavement bottom toothed pulley.  Ron McB is breaking an engine, is he not??

I think this is the way it's going... I also have a spare engine, with Gbox off, so flywheel locking wouldn't be too hard. Thing is, it's 75 miles from me, and car :(

I may have to ask FIN about having his...if he still has that engine. I doubt I'll get it for tomorrow, the next day may do at a push   ::)
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 25 June 2007, 21:33:30
Must have had too much fresh air today....

There HAS to be a means to correctly locate the pulley on the crank.  Thats all its for, to locate it.  All thrust/torsion is taken up by the grip of the taper as induced by the chuffin tight bolt.

New pully required and a clean out of the broken bit in the crank taper.......

How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt?  Undue twisting on the pulley causing it to shear the locator peg or was it fubar'ed to start with?
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 25 June 2007, 21:38:16
Quote
There HAS to be a means to correctly locate the pulley on the crank.  Thats all its for, to locate it.  All thrust/torsion is taken up by the grip of the taper as induced by the chuffin tight bolt.
Quote

Agreed.  Ive not seen a crank pulley with integral key built in but I guess its possible... Unusual though.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Dazzler on 25 June 2007, 22:14:29
How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt?  Undue twisting on the pulley causing it to shear the locator peg or was it fubar'ed to start with?

Sadly i reckon it sheared whilst undoing the kin tight bolt :-/ That 250++ is kin tight :(
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2007, 22:22:14
Quote
How did you hold it all together when releasing the bolt?  

Locked flywheel
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 25 June 2007, 23:05:44
My money is on it being either a woodruf key or a lug that has broken off the pulley.

The slot machined in the end of the crankshaft - is it a constant "depth" throughout its' length from front to back or a kind of "half moon" profile?

If it's a constant depth I'd wager there was a lug on the pulley and it broke off. If not, was the bit of metal that came off a half moon profile on one edge and straight on the other?

Some pics of the two ends and the bit of metal that came out would be good.

Since the timing reference for the crank is on the pulley there will be something to positively locate it at the correct position relative to the crank.

Sounds like the only way to be sure is for Ronnie to take his pulley off and see how it compares.

Kevin
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 26 June 2007, 08:40:14
Ok, so you now know why we said to fabricate a tool to lock the crank....

If you lock the flywheel you bugger the woodruff key like you have done and normaly the pulley with it....lets hope the crank is not damaged (Can somebody look to see if the woodruff key is seperate to the crank on EPC as it might be a machined part of the crank in which case your in big trouble).


You should also have set the crank to 60 deg before tdc and popped the belt off and then let the cams relax.....much safer.


Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Matchless on 26 June 2007, 09:21:34
James, the bit of metal was the keyway from the timing sprocket, you need a new sprocket. Is the slot in the crank OK?

The sprocket bolt is V.V.V.tight, something like 270nm + 45 deg. When you locked the crank instead of bolting a bar to the sprocket you transferred all that torque to the keyway and it isnt designed for that sort of load.

I hope your crank is OK, if so get another sprocket (McB may still have a spare block in his garden....) fit the sprocket and loosely do up the bolt to retain it. Now refit the belt etc and then bolt a piece of angle etc to the sprocket before torqueing up the bolt fully.  The reason for this method is that you do not want the crank to rotate AT ALL relative to the cams.

BTW, when you prise out the old seal you will find a 'spacer' on the crank, pull this off and check for a groove worn in it by the seal. You can simply reverse this spacer so the seal runs on a fresh bit, if you dont the new seal will leak.

I made up this restraining bar for the crank sprocket :

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/matchless_pete/IMG_7355.jpg)
You can see the hole pattern for the sprocket on the end, I made a rubbing of the aux pulley to transfer the pattern to the ally angle.

Also a pic of the grooved spacer:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/matchless_pete/IMG_7358.jpg)

If you can get a sprocket locally then fine, otherwise try McB, if he still has the engine I can remove the sprocket from it and post.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: hotel21 on 26 June 2007, 09:32:25
Mark - no sign of a seperate listing for a key that can be found on EPC or other 'paperwork' that a friend has access too.....   ;)

After thinking on whats happened, I would be inclined towards there being a machined lug on the sprocket with a corresponding groove in the crank taper, rather than a permanent protruding keyway on the crank taper with a groove on the sprocket due to manufacturing/machining limitations.

Plus, as we now have found out, it will be easier to replace the sprocket complete rather than the crankshaft if the locating key fails........
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Matchless on 26 June 2007, 09:40:21
The key is an integral part of the sprocket.
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 26 June 2007, 09:59:12
Question answered then, so, is the crank slot damaged at all...
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 26 June 2007, 12:39:25
Quote
Question answered then, so, is the crank slot damaged at all...

Nope - there is no damage at all, to the crank slot that I can see. Hopefully, I have had a lucky escape.

By fabricate a tool to lock the crank, I just assumed you meant via the flywheel. (As I've always done on Rovers -Doh!! ) Nevermind, I'll know for next time.. good learning experience!

Mr McB doesn't have a pulley, I've emailed Henry and Rupert..
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: sassanach on 26 June 2007, 14:35:44
ive got two! :)
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: cdx25 on 26 June 2007, 16:11:46
Quote
ive got two! :)

Given the strength of his arm, make sure you sell him them both, he may need a spare  ;D
Title: Re: Urgent Crank Seal Question (Mark or Matchless?
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 26 June 2007, 18:44:09
Quote
ive got two! :)

Have you really got 2 toothed crank pulleys? I'm DESPERATE... can you help me mate? Are they intact with the keys intact?

Can you let me know a price inc postage? I'll be on again tonight...