Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: V8S on 13 November 2007, 16:30:44
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Hi,
I think I've posted on here before about tramlining issues I have had with my recently purchased 2001 DTi Elite.
I had new F1 Eagles fitted, and the geometry set up by a local firm whom the chap at Wheels In Motion checked out for me, and that cured most of the problem. Apparently they couldn't adjust the rear settings which seems strange to me. When I took the car into Bathwick tyres on the day I bought it to have the tracking checked, the left rear position on the Laserline apparatus was out by a couple of points.
After wanting an Omega for a very long time, I'm now REALLY not enjoying driving the car on my local, bumpy Dorset roads, which make up about 80% of my travel. I drive a TVR on these roads too and am used to having nervous steering; I also used to drive a K-reg Honda saloon which would only tramline a little on very bad roads, other than that it would go where you pointed it.
The Omega seems at times to jump left and right according to the camber and road surface, like the whole car has been pushed sideways at once, rather than following the front wheels as they hit bumps and ruts which I could understand. Sometimes the rear feels like it has moved sideways and the front remained straight. At times it feels very unnerving, but on slightly better roads it seems quite stable and confidence inspiring. Whenever a car comes towards me on an NSL lane, I'm on tenterhooks in case the Omega suddenly jumps right and I hit them.
My g/f, who isn't exactly a novice when it comes to cars, having driven hundreds of cars in her working life, reckons I'm just not used to modern cars, especially with 17" wheels that the Elite has. The TVR has 15" and the Honda I think was 15" too. The tyres on the Omega are 235/45s so reasonably low profile. She says her dad's 05 plate Hyundai is strange to drive too, and so is her aunt's BMW Z4 and that I'll just get used to it.
I can see no evidence of any crash damage on the car or in the history, though the left rear wing has had some spraying at some time - probably Tesco trolley damage. The front wishbones, I think, have been replaced about a year ago due to an MOT advisory.
I am waiting to get some spare time to check the steering idler as that has been mentioned on this forum, but how I check it I've no idea.
So, what does your 17" alloy Elite drive like? Is a certain amount of nervousness standard on the Omegas? Unfortunately, before I bought this car, I only test drove 3 other cars, none of them Elites and none of them on bumpy roads.
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Mine was a bit nervous on poor surfaces, and my other car is a Westfield with hefty tyres on, so I'm not oversensitive to such things either.
Two things I have done have dramatically recuced this. Changing the front tyres and getting Tony to set it up properly (way too much -ve camber on the fronts).
Did you actually get a print out of the final geometry? Tony spent about an hour adjusting mine to get it spot on. I'm wondering if these guys were as careful. Tony also mentioned that the rear has to be adjusted first to get the front right although that may just be a feature of the system he is using.
It's always possible that you've got some play somewhere but have a play with the basics if you haven't already. Experiment with a few tyre pressures either side of the recommended, also swap tyres front to back and see if it improves.
Kevin
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Hi mate, i had michelin primacy tyres all round up to about 3 months ago then i changed to pirelli p7000's and the differance was quite alarming. the pireli's tramline all over the place compared to the michelins.I had the camber and toe in checked and ajusted by tony at wim and that improved it a lot but it is still there. Tony did say that tyres with the main solid band on the tyre in the middle tend not to tramline as much as those that have it off- set to the outer edge. Hope this helps but it does appear to be a trait of some tyres.
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my omega, (facelift CDX) I would describe as being very slightly over "bouncy.." but I just put that down to it's mileage (100k). Mine is on 16" wheels.
Tramlinining is often caused by steering idler, though.
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Hi,
All 4 tyres are 3 weeks old and the same F1 Eagle GSD3s, so surely changing them around wouldn't make any difference? I had the same 'stepping sideways' symptoms on the old Falkens so I don't think it is down to the tyre make or pattern. I have heard, however, that large wheels (to me 17" is large) are more prone to tramlining.
Tony seemed happy after speaking with them about their competency. I did get a printout, two in fact, but I haven't actually looked at them. I will find them tonight.
Tony gave me a camber for the front wheels, which I instructed the garage down here to follow.
I can't remember exactly what they said, but it was along the lines of the rears can't be adjusted - whether that was either toe or camber on their own, or both I don't know. It makes me think either I have an odd car or it's bullshit. I have always thought ALL wheels could be adjusted on cars, because otherwise one kerb hit and you'd have badly wearing rear tyres forever. That doesn't make sense. I wish WIM was nearer!
Cheers.
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It's odd, Primacys are what I had on mine when I got it and they were quite bad (albeit that the camber was way out anyway and their inside edges had probably been scrubbed). Changed to SP2000Es which are fine.
It'd be worth checking thoroughly for play. Jack up the front and and try to rock each wheel in both axes then have a look & feel underneath for lost motion while someone rocks the steering (best done with the weight on the wheels).
I wouldn't say my Omega's the most precise car about the "straight ahead" position. It's fine once you've turned in though. Maybe I've just got used to it.
Kevin
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I think you have perhaps answered your own question in para 2.
If the rear n/s is out it will have the effect of steering the car from the rear on bumps. Need to either get heat and brute force on the rear adjusters (and set up properly) or replace the adjustment arms. And get it set up properly.
I run 235/45/17 F1's on my MV6 with 30 mm lowered rear suspension. No tramlining, once all set up nicely by WiM....
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I think you have perhaps answered your own question in para 2.
If the rear n/s is out it will have the effect of steering the car from the rear on bumps. Need to either get heat and brute force on the rear adjusters (and set up properly) or replace the adjustment arms. And get it set up properly.
I run 235/45/17 F1's on my MV6 with 30 mm lowered rear suspension. No tramlining, once all set up nicely by WiM....
I'd like to exerience a drive in your car, Brucie :) :y
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Classic rear not setup correctly type symptoms....and the rear CAN be adjusted.
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I think you have perhaps answered your own question in para 2.
If the rear n/s is out it will have the effect of steering the car from the rear on bumps. Need to either get heat and brute force on the rear adjusters (and set up properly) or replace the adjustment arms. And get it set up properly.
I run 235/45/17 F1's on my MV6 with 30 mm lowered rear suspension. No tramlining, once all set up nicely by WiM....
That is what I've always wondered since going to Bathwick that time. Both rear wheels had gauges like a ruler fitted, and the laser on the driver's side pointed at 3, I think, and the one on the other side pointed at 4 or 5. The chap pointed this out but didn't know why this might be.
Unfortunately I'm no mechanic so have to rely on other people to do their best in setting the car up, but it is bloody frustrating not knowing for certain whether or not the car is set up correctly and that the symptoms I have is caused by something else.
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How much would I be looking at for a full 4-wheel alignment? (And more to the point, where am I going to have to drive to? Not that I jsut want an excuse to go driving half the length of the country now my cambelt's done or anything... ;) )
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Classic rear not setup correctly type symptoms....and the rear CAN be adjusted.
I will give the garage a call tomorrow, though I don't expect they'll remember doing my car and thus what couldn't be adjusted on the rear. In the meantime I'll try to dig out the printouts.
I just want my car to drive like I have hoped it would for so many years. I now have two cars I'm proud to own but there have been times like earlier today when I just wanted to get in the Honda because I don't feel safe in the Omega. I suppose I could have, but couldn't be arsed to get the Honda out of the paddock!
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It cost £85+vat at WIM HEMEL HEMPSTEAD but worth the trip but that is a trip from teeside,recommended all the same. :y
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How much would I be looking at for a full 4-wheel alignment? (And more to the point, where am I going to have to drive to? Not that I jsut want an excuse to go driving half the length of the country now my cambelt's done or anything... ;) )
Mine cost £45 at Plan B in Dorchester, Dorset.
Wheels In Motion in Hemel Hempstead seem to be the favoured choice around here.
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Setup for OOF members at Wheels In Motion in hemel Hempstead is £85 plus VAT = £100. Take the car back again after 2k miles for a fine tune. He also told me that there is still something he is less than happy with regarding the FOS on mine but is at the extreme of available adjustment. Bring it back again after a further 2k miles to get redone again....
All for the same hundred squid investment. And it is an investment. Very worthwhile, both on handling fun and saving on £100 tyres getting scrubbed within a few thou' miles...........
Google for Wheels in Motion, Hemel Hempstead and you will find as much info on their forum regarding suspension as there is on the whole car on here..... (well, almost. ;D)
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It cost £85+vat at WIM HEMEL HEMPSTEAD but worth the trip but that is a trip from teeside,recommended all the same. :y
Sweet deal. I might combine that with an airbag light reset from one of our friendly T2 guys... and maybe a trip to Plymouth to see my mate too. Just have to see how much I get paid over the next couple of weeks.
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I've always thought the omega is one of the most planted, solid feeling cars around. It should also 'waft' along country lanes, the rear wheel drive making the steering much more responsive. The twitchyness reported, I don't think is in character with the car. To
put it in perspective, it shouldn't drive like a Vauxhall at all! More like a big Merc!
Though you are quite right when saying cars with wide tyres are more prone to tramlining. Our roads are pretty shocking though and we find that if tied to lane 1 whilst towing we're always getting caught in the REAL lorry tramlines!
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Classic rear not setup correctly type symptoms....and the rear CAN be adjusted.
the rear adjusters can have a habit of seizing, which is what mine did! i've recently had mine freed off so i can get my alignment done next week, the nuts that hold the adjusters came undone easy enough but the adjusters wouldn't budge!!
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Come on Guys we all know these cars handle like crap even when set-up correctly why keep kidding ourselves! ;D
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Well my car does not handle like crap. >:( IT MUST BE THE WAY YOU DRIVE IT.
It will out handle most large saloons and estates on the roads.
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Come on Guys we all know these cars handle like crap even when set-up correctly why keep kidding ourselves! ;D
That post is crap! As suggested, for a large saloon they are much nicer to drive than most other things on the road. That is one of the reasons they are selected for the police. Even the volvo's are FWD now, meldrew's 166 understears all over the shop, all french cars are crap full stop. BMW's are a viable alternative and a merc is closely related.
I know full well that the car should be safe to drive, that was the original point of the post. I think it's accepted that the facelift migs handle better than the pre-face and I tell ya, it's in a different league to a vectra or astra! :y
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Here are the printouts I received when my geometry was set up.
(http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/details1.jpg)
(http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/details2.jpg)
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Not a facelift.
Mine was fine with dunlops on the back.
Now with Acellera ? 225 55 16 unidirect its like driving with a loose live rear axle.
Smooth roads perfect, Dug up roads I feel embarrased that passengers will think i'm pissed.
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http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/details1.jpg
http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/details2.jpg
ETA: Hmm... my website server is still down then.
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Classic rear not setup correctly type symptoms....and the rear CAN be adjusted.
I know this is an old thread but after doing a quick search this came up as the most likely candidate.
I'm needing some pictures of the rear adjustment set up if anyone has them, just to prove a point to a Carlton (Omega A) owner. I knew the Omega B had adjusters for the rear toe (and camber?) but could not find a description or picture to convince him.
I would prefer pictures rather than diagram from EPC or the like if anyone can help out?
Cheers
Jon
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Classic rear not setup correctly type symptoms....and the rear CAN be adjusted.
the rear adjusters can have a habit of seizing, which is what mine did! i've recently had mine freed off so i can get my alignment done next week, the nuts that hold the adjusters came undone easy enough but the adjusters wouldn't budge!!
On both mine, I took the rear track rods off and freed them up before going to WIM in Chesham, that way they can adjust them easily. A good idea to do the fronts also, or liberal Plusgas to assist. :y
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Good evening v8s, I feel your pain.
Been there with one on my Elites that became extremely unruly to the point of being dangerous, and it took help above and beyond the call from members here to sort it.
First off appologies I'm extremely tired so may have missed a few facts among the posts here. I'll come back to it later but for now, some things I've found helped.
With any omega;
1 check the car fully for related faults and rectify.
2 set up
3 fit new tyres.
Those with Elites, esp those who like to crack on when driving, should strongly concider fitting firmer suspension. Elites are built for comfort so soft suspension is the order if the day. Trouble is soft suspension deflects the camber angle when compressed so tyres wear more rapidly with soft springs. So stage 1 Is a good time to fit something along the lines of Mv6 suspension.
Bushes are also key to handling but a trade off. Firmer the better for accuracy when driving, but there comes a point where ride quality and comfort suffers. However poly for the front wishbone front bush are accepted as giving an improved accurate drive with only minor trade off in comfort/harshness.
The 4 pots don't tend to destroy thier rear donut bushes like the v engines do but it's worth checking them non the less. Most seem to have at least slight rubber seperation sround the edges by now.
Once the structural stuff is sorted only then go on to the setup, but allow a few weeks for new suspension to settle to its new ride height first, if you do go down that road.
After thoughts, west country roads tend to roll and wallow an Elite quite nicely so try to stick to major roads where possible to keep the suspension from wearing the tyres. They like motorways. Difficult down there I know.
Never allow a set up firm away with the old "seized track rod" excuse. Wim went though a stage of this and it took 6 or 7 visits to get the steering straight.
There's a few guides on handling and set up so have a look through those. There's a thread on "approved tyres" so to speak. F1's being highly regarded so I do feel your problems lie elsewhere. Although primacy(?) and Michelins generally don't work too well once the profile is lost ime. I use conti sc3. Noisy but stable, good grip, just pray to the good lord himself that it never snows while they are fitted.
The nearest place I'd recommend to you is Micheldever tyres near the 303/m3 junction. They will remove track rods to free off and lube them. Avoid thier franchises though they a bit Micky ime.
Otherwise Wheels in motion franchises are much better regulated. Thier web site will guide you.
Steering idler should have zero vertical play. Put a foot on the front wheel and push it firmly for and aft. There should be no more than a couple of mm play in the wheel position.
Right I'm off to bed.
Best of luck with it. They do go straight, honest. :) (but elites have the cards stacked against them more than any othe model in the omega range)
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Chrissy Baby - This is a 5 year old thread ;D ;D
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Chrissy Baby - This is a 5 year old thread ;D ;D
Woooo, my my haven't you got a slippery tongue.
Arse covered on line 4 big boy. :-*
Pic within shows rear track rod adjusters. ;)
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251982709/0
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I thought WIM were in in Chesham, have they moved to Hemel?